Does a Level 7 bolt require a heavier trigger pull vs a Level 10 bolt?

[Pneumagger]

All else being equal, does a level 7 bolt setup produce a heavier trigger when compared to a properly installed Level 10? In theory, with the Level 10 having less initial forward force on the sear, I would think the level 10 unlatches from the sear more easily... but does this translate to reality? Or s it insignificant?

Because if there's no appreciable difference, I would think a Level 7 wouldn't be a bad choice given modern loader feed rates that would be difficult to outshoot (Rotor II, Pinokio Speed, Qloader, etc). So a Level 7 should be faster at the top end of the BPS scale compared to the LX (giving a loader more open breech time to feed) and there obviously much fewer tuning and bolt stick issues for the electro/pneu mag enthusiasts.

Basically, distilled down to the core of my reasoning, why choose LX (and any of it's headaches) over a level 7 with a modern super-loader.

[ScottyBeans]

You make some good points. Not sure on the trigger pull difference, but I'd wager it would be insignificant.

The real question is: is the L10 worth the 'headaches' now that loaders can reliably keep up?

I'd say with brittle, tournament paint, it's still worth it, since the acceleration profile is better. But for recreational to mid-range paint? Sure, why not?

Maybe I'll give it a shot at some point. One of my xvalves has some bolt stick issues (I'm sure it's the carrier o-ring swelling or something, but I don't have the next carrier up so I'd have to order it).

[Pneumagger]

Is it easy to get Level 7 Foamie Bolts these days? Personally, I think a lightened Level 7 bolt that was equipped with a LX foamie and would be a nice option for people with adequate loaders running pneumatics or who simply want less tuning.

Not that I think LX tuning is difficult (it's really simple). But sometimes, a plug and play option is what the doctor ordered.

[blackdeath1k]

My rt has a L7 with a rotor loader. My wife has a LX with a halo loader. If your a player that doesn't do the 20bps stuff. And you just do hit and miss 8-10 bps. The L7 is no issue at all. At least it never has been for me. If you like the machine gun effect I'd stick with a LX. I will say every now and then I've had a hiccup with a deformed ball or something and got a chop from that. With the LX there would have been a chance for a chuff instead of a chop. As for trigger feel on the 2. I can't really tell a difference.

[nak81783]

I can tell no difference in trigger pull.

Recoil difference is noticeable, since the Level 7 is heavier. However, you can shoot a little lower into the tank psi, since it runs at a lower pressure. There's a trade off there.

I thought I read somewhere in the AGD documents not to use Level 7s on X-Valves, so I simply use the gold spring and largest carrier that doesn't leak in my Level 10s. If I ever start chopping or breaking paint, it's a quick spring change to help with that.

[Pneumagger]

I thought about using a lyman trigger pull gauge, but the RT kickback pretty much ruins getting an accurate pull reading. I suppose a good test might be to use an ElectroPneumatic frame set to the minimum pressure & dwell that will barely actuate a valve with well tuned L10 bolt... and then drop in the L7 bolt to see if there's a measureable pressure or significant dwell increase required. Any volunteers?

I had planned on doing this once I get my current EP project further along, but I'm still a good ways off from that point. If it works well, I wanted to use a the L7 bolt unless since my project will be Qloaded (no chance of outrunning that thing). I guess the only real variable after that decision is can I shoot good paint that won't be blended by the L7 bolt.

[Pneumagger]

I can tell no difference in trigger pull.

Recoil difference is noticeable, since the Level 7 is heavier. However, you can shoot a little lower into the tank psi, since it runs at a lower pressure. There's a trade off there.

I thought I read somewhere in the AGD documents not to use Level 7s on X-Valves, so I simply use the gold spring and largest carrier that doesn't leak in my Level 10s. If I ever start chopping or breaking paint, it's a quick spring change to help with that.

Another good point, nak. The L7 requires lower pressure (shorter recharge time) so that's another reason an L7 equipped valve should cycle even faster. Although, at that point it's probably academic because even if a loader can handle it, nobody is going to be shooting 26+ bps in a game, let alone notice a difference of a few more bps increase from there. (...or could I? :ninja:)

I don't imagine discouraging L7 use on an Xvalve is due to a battering issue on the aluminum valve because there is still a bumper and the LX return spring is stronger too. If it's not a battering issue I would guess it's a liability issue in that, since all Xvalves are designed for LX, their pressure envelopes are higher and cranking up on Xvalve velocity with a L7 might cause "unsafe" velocities before encountering rear reg/valve venting. Then again, if it is a battering issue... go buy a ReTro Valve. :)

[Cyco-Dude]

All else being equal, does a level 7 bolt setup produce a heavier trigger when compared to a properly installed Level 10?

no difference in trigger pull from what i can tell. the level 10 is still another safety net to prevent chops. ask yourself this; why do modern electronic markers have eyes? shouldn't they be unneeded since we have 20+ bps loaders?

[Pneumagger]

There's no disadvantage to having eyes, really. And if there's a problem, turn them off. So there's no reason not to have them.

From a raw speed and tuning perspective, L7 may offer an advantage... so I'm reconsidering the usefulness of LX with modern loaders in mind. But for pneumatic builds, I was curious if lpr pressure might need increased due to greater bolt-sear engagement force.

[athomas]

The level 10 bolt comes into its own when the loader gets low and the ball stack is not tight. With a level 7 bolt, you almost always get a chop if you fire a high bps string in those conditions, especially if the gun is not held perfectly level.

The level 7 bolt operates at a lower chamber pressure than the level 10 bolt. This causes the force on the on-off pin to be greater on the level 10 setup than on the level 7 setup. The level 10 bolt offers less force pushing on the sear. So, is the reduction in forward bolt force on the sear and its effect on the trigger pull offset by the increased force on the on-off pin when using the level 10 bolt? If you use a barrel that pushes your mag farther away from its most efficient operation, then the level 10 chamber pressure increases and the force on the on-off pin is increased which increases the trigger pull force. The level 7 chamber pressure goes up too, but not by as much so there is less increase in force for the on-off pin, but there is also an increase in the forward bolt force which increases the friction of the sear which increases the pull force.

The end result is that there probably isn't enough difference to notice for the average user.

[JKR]

All this talk of going back to a L7 from a L10 bolt reaffirms my decision to never stop using the L7 bolt. I love the simplicity and honestly don't have many chopping issues if the paint isn't super brittle. Valken Graffiti shoots great through my Mags!

[nak81783]

Bring back the Superbolt, sans the shrapnel flying out the barrel. It's the best of both worlds except no anti-chop/break capabilities.

[Nobody]

1) the spring or bolt has nothing to do with the trigger pull. The pull is dictated by the on/off or the force needed to turn off the flow of air to the dump chamber. This is why on a classic valve you can change the on/off assembly to a RT, and it lightens it.

2)the L7 can go as fast as you want it too. Remember, the RT RoF test was with a L7 bolt. Yes, the Uberloader used in that test was genesis for the Halo and other forcefeed loaders we know today.

Now here comes the theorem. This will consider that all paint is perfectly round, fresh and will not break in the barrel.

You need a loader to be able to keep up with the max RoF of the gun. Any slip of the loading speed and the sustained(that is the key here for both) RoF of the gun, & you will have a missfeed/half shot which basically results in a chop. A forceceed loader solves this, by hopefully feeding faster than a gun could shot, thus maintaining a ball always being in the breech, ready to shoot. Hence why a revy can keep up with short strings on a RT mag and why people used tall stacks of oaint to help have a ball ready to fall into the breech, but why you shoot long strings of paint, there is a higher chance of a chop. If you think of it like a manual transmission for a car. When you engage the clutch to change the gear at the right RPM. Everything moves smoothly, as it should. But if you shift without the clutch or change into the wrong gear, bad stuff happens.

3) the L10 does slow the bolt speed down, very slightly. I wish i had the numbers but it is just what others have said. Even if it is slower, the gun can only shoot as fast as you can feed paint in. If you are cycling the bolt at say 25bps, if you use a revy it will feed at 12bps. You will chop. The L10 does help prevent this, as we all know. The advantage of the L10 over eyes is that eyes can get blocked and they can get fooled. The L10 is mechanical, so there is nothing that stop it from working. If there is a problem with chuffing then you need to determine where the problem is and fine tune the L10 for that. But the beauty of the L10 is that is that "chuff" a chuff or the bolt doing its job?

4)if you think of the L10 as a failsafe measure, then its no doubt it is the way to go. If you eliminate a possible problem, then as good as the L7 is at simpicity, the L10 is at the paragon of being the best and most useful thing to do. The possible loss of speed at the high end of RoF is not significant if you can not reach that limit, or feed paint in that fast.

So, get a L10 and you can use any loader you want, at any bps you fire. Keep the L7 and the incremental gains in speed or simpicity of use will go into the time spent cleaning that 1% break you will invariably get.

[Spider-TW]

1) the spring or bolt has nothing to do with the trigger pull. The pull is dictated by the on/off or the force needed to turn off the flow of air to the dump chamber. This is why on a classic valve you can change the on/off assembly to a RT, and it lightens it.

2)the L7 can go as fast as you want it too. Remember, the RT RoF test was with a L7 bolt. Yes, the Uberloader used in that test was genesis for the Halo and other forcefeed loaders we know today.

Now here comes the theorem. This will consider that all paint is perfectly round, fresh and will not break in the barrel.

You need a loader to be able to keep up with the max RoF of the gun. Any slip of the loading speed and the sustained(that is the key here for both) RoF of the gun, & you will have a missfeed/half shot which basically results in a chop. A forceceed loader solves this, by hopefully feeding faster than a gun could shot, thus maintaining a ball always being in the breech, ready to shoot. Hence why a revy can keep up with short strings on a RT mag and why people used tall stacks of oaint to help have a ball ready to fall into the breech, but why you shoot long strings of paint, there is a higher chance of a chop. If you think of it like a manual transmission for a car. When you engage the clutch to change the gear at the right RPM. Everything moves smoothly, as it should. But if you shift without the clutch or change into the wrong gear, bad stuff happens.

3) the L10 does slow the bolt speed down, very slightly. I wish i had the numbers but it is just what others have said. Even if it is slower, the gun can only shoot as fast as you can feed paint in. If you are cycling the bolt at say 25bps, if you use a revy it will feed at 12bps. You will chop. The L10 does help prevent this, as we all know. The advantage of the L10 over eyes is that eyes can get blocked and they can get fooled. The L10 is mechanical, so there is nothing that stop it from working. If there is a problem with chuffing then you need to determine where the problem is and fine tune the L10 for that. But the beauty of the L10 is that is that "chuff" a chuff or the bolt doing its job?

4)if you think of the L10 as a failsafe measure, then its no doubt it is the way to go. If you eliminate a possible problem, then as good as the L7 is at simpicity, the L10 is at the paragon of being the best and most useful thing to do. The possible loss of speed at the high end of RoF is not significant if you can not reach that limit, or feed paint in that fast.

So, get a L10 and you can use any loader you want, at any bps you fire. Keep the L7 and the incremental gains in speed or simpicity of use will go into the time spent cleaning that 1% break you will invariably get.

5) The only time you are using a good, steady rate of fire is when you are really working the field, and that is probably the only time you would ever let your loader get low. Hence, if you are looking for dependability at high rof, a L10 helps a lot. Otherwise, you are likely to get a "PAf!" sound along with the final spin of your loader and end up clogged through the loader, in the middle of an intense duel with one or more of the opposition. :clap:

[nak81783]

I think the extra 100 or so shots a Level 7 gets by being able to operate at a lower pressure should not be overlooked. I'm not worried about ROF, but those extra shots can be important, especially when playing in the woods, filling from Scubas which obviously decline with each fill.

[Nobody]

I think the extra 100 or so shots a Level 7 gets by being able to operate at a lower pressure should not be overlooked. I'm not worried about ROF, but those extra shots can be important, especially when playing in the woods, filling from Scubas which obviously decline with each fill.
Then limit your paint to less than you shoot. Hopperball is fun, can help increase skill and extends the life of your fill tank. What you could also do is to, this only works on a classic valve only, is to LOWER the pressure going into the gun. Have it set to a good working preasure(around 650psi - each gun will work differently, test & tune) and you will see a slight increase in the number of shots you can get. Yes a L10 does limit the potential number of total shots you can get. I got my classic valve up to over 1200 shots off a 68/4500.

i never like renegade/pirate ball and do like to play & support my fields(BTW, i travel 2hrs to get to my field, 1 way so no crying about nothing close to you). The more you support them, the more you can play.

[nak81783]

My point is there are all kinds of games/scenarios/situations where a certain setup may be better than another.

Can you elaborate on your dislike for outlaw fields? This is, after all, what started the sport. It was how I got started, and it's how quite a few of the newer players get started. I agree they have to be done right and safely, but they're still supporting paintball simply by purchasing equipment, paint, and air.

I certainly don't mind supporting a field if they offer me a good experience. There are very few outlaw fields that I play anymore. They've simply stopped playing, so public fields are just about my only option nowadays.

[Pneumagger]

1) the spring or bolt has nothing to do with the trigger pull. The pull is dictated by the on/off or the force needed to turn off the flow of air to the dump chamber. This is why on a classic valve you can change the on/off assembly to a RT, and it lightens it.

So, get a L10 and you can use any loader you want, at any bps you fire. Keep the L7 and the incremental gains in speed or simpicity of use will go into the time spent cleaning that 1% break you will invariably get.

Well, where the sear interfaces with the bolt there is friction... so all things being equal the more forward force on the bolt-sear interface, the greater the friction acting on the sear movement. Since a L7 bolt has more forward force it should have an inherently higher sear friction. However, as athomas noted, I overlooked the higher chamber pressure of the L10 setup creating more on/off pin force; which might negate any reduction in sear friction. So at the end of the day it's all a wash, I suppose... or at least the forces are close enough to be unnoticeable.

I'm unconcerned with greater efficiency. It's not like 'mags are amazingly efficient in most configurations. The purpose of posting this thread was that I'm more considering the L7 as it relates to mech and EP pneumags because they have an extra level of tuning with their frames. Even with a properly/perfectly tuned LX bolt you can short stroke the system with a pneumatic trigger and cause bolt stick due to dragging the sear. EP frames tend to avoid this with dwell control, but hangups still happen on occasion. The L7 bolts don't tend to get bolt stick or hangups easily and are generally more forgiving of the pneumatics. Not that I have anything against LX bolts... they're awesome and easy to setup. I've kept them on all my mags. But with the current gun I'm putting together now, I was curious about using L7 and that it won't require any unduly high LPR pressures for the pneumatics. I figure very few setups can outrun Qloaders. But I'm certainly going to try... Ninja SHP, extra reactive on/off, Qloader, L7 bolt. It's pretty much going to be for woodsball at a private field where firing modes of all kinds are allowed.

Speaking of fields that allow freedom of firing modes, Autoresponse on a nicely reactive Hybrid Emag is by far the best firing mode ever created. Easy to go slow. Easy to go stupid-fast. 100% control. After that, I just prefer Hybrid Semi.

[Pneumagger]

Also... who needs Level 10? :rofl:
(they were all barrel breaks... I swear :ninja:)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAdimGnAxSY

[Cyco-Dude]

I think the extra 100 or so shots a Level 7 gets by being able to operate at a lower pressure should not be overlooked.
is this a number you've come to by actual testing of the different bolts, or are you just guessing?


I'm unconcerned with greater efficiency. It's not like 'mags are amazingly efficient in most configurations. The purpose of posting this thread was that I'm more considering the L7 as it relates to mech and EP pneumags because they have an extra level of tuning with their frames. Even with a properly/perfectly tuned LX bolt you can short stroke the system with a pneumatic trigger and cause bolt stick due to dragging the sear. EP frames tend to avoid this with dwell control, but hangups still happen on occasion. The L7 bolts don't tend to get bolt stick or hangups easily and are generally more forgiving of the pneumatics.
this doesn't make sense to me; if it can fire a lvl 7 bolt it should fire a lvl x bolt just as well if the lvl x is tuned properly.

i don't get the point of this thread; you're trying to justify the use of a lvl 7 over a lvl x? you don't need to...use whatever bolt you want man, you can make either one work. there is no debate over which bolt is more useful; clearly the lvl x has benefits over a lvl 7. or if you want to tinker, try both out and see how it goes. you can go nuts with a lvl 7 and be fine, as long as it's fed fast enough.

[nak81783]

Just a guess. It'll obviously vary based on tank size, velocity, paint/barrel match, etc. The Level 7 seems to slowly taper off as you empty the tank, ending with a pressurized trigger but no more chuff chuff. The Level 10 gives you a very limited number of shots as you approach its operating pressure before the trigger just goes limp.

[Pneumagger]

this doesn't make sense to me; if it can fire a lvl 7 bolt it should fire a lvl x bolt just as well if the lvl x is tuned properly.

i don't get the point of this thread; you're trying to justify the use of a lvl 7 over a lvl x? you don't need to...use whatever bolt you want man, you can make either one work. there is no debate over which bolt is more useful; clearly the lvl x has benefits over a lvl 7. or if you want to tinker, try both out and see how it goes. you can go nuts with a lvl 7 and be fine, as long as it's fed fast enough.

My goal is simple: Build the fastest woodsball gun I can that is still playable and reliable. So I'm using an EP frame (many solenoid like LPR <75psi), Ninja SHP reg, and a Qloader (documented to support 35+bps sustained). I'm not trying to justify the L7 over the LX... L7 does have higher potential max ROF, which is my goal. So, since it's very unlikely to outrun a Qloader, I figured I could get away with using a L7 (faster). A side-benefit of this decision may even be ease of tuning the pneumatics without having to keep a LX in tune as well. Although for actually playing games on the field, keeping a tuned LX on hand and dialing back the ROF a few BPS would be wise.

My only unknown, and the point of this thread, was to ask if the higher sear-bolt disengagement force would result in a significant LPR increase since blowing solenoids sucks. Turns out the potential answer is that between the greater sear force and decreased on/off force... it's a wash. This also seems supported by the fact that people (I suppose myself included) have never seemed to feel a notable difference either.

[Spider-TW]

My goal is simple: Build the fastest woodsball gun I can that is still playable and reliable. So I'm using an EP frame (many solenoid like LPR <75psi), Ninja SHP reg, and a Qloader (documented to support 35+bps sustained).

Those are neat, but only for about three seconds at a time. :)

[Pneumagger]

I plan on keeping a second vert feed body with a Pinokio Speed on hand if the Qloader thing isn't ideal. So even in a more normal configuration, it will be stupid fast. :) But when I play woodsball, I don't seem to use much paint anyways. A 3 pod pack should give me 400 rounds total.

[athomas]

Throw a red spring on a level 7 bolt. It won't affect the forward bolt velocity and will knock about 3lbs of force off the forward force that the bolt hits the ball with.

A typical level 7 bolt with a gold spring pushes forward with about 10lbs of force. A level 10 with a red spring pushes with about 3lbs of force. A level 7 with a red spring pushes with about 7lbs of force. Now, the red spring won't affect the overall operation of the level 7 as much as people would think. A red spring actually has a lower spring constant than a gold spring. But because it is compressed more at the start, it exerts more force than the gold spring at the start of the stroke. The gold spring surpasses the compressed force of the red spring as it reaches its full compression. The result is that a level 7 bolt with a red spring will travel at about the same average velocity as a level 7 bolt with a gold spring. It just starts with less force. It is more force than a level 10 bolt with a gold spring, so it won't have the tuning issues of a level 10.

[Pneumagger]

Awesome info! If I might inquire, is there a reason the red spring is not standard configuration with a L7 bolt? Where does the silver spring stand in comparison to all this?

Surprisingly, even with my Level 10 bolts, I always ended up using the short gold spring anyways. It still doesn't chop the tougher paints out there.

[athomas]

Awesome info! If I might inquire, is there a reason the red spring is not standard configuration with a L7 bolt? Where does the silver spring stand in comparison to all this?

Surprisingly, even with my Level 10 bolts, I always ended up using the short gold spring anyways. It still doesn't chop the tougher paints out there.The gold spring on a level 10 bolt hits with about 5lbs of force if I remember correctly. It is higher than using the red spring but still significantly lower than the gold spring on a level 7 bolt. The numbers are based on calculations using known measurements but don't take into account the friction variables. They are affected by each gun setup and the different operating pressures required to reach velocity, which affects the pressure in the chamber.

I have the silver spring info written down somewhere. It is the same stiffness as the red spring(?) That would make sense, since the level 10 kits now ship with just the grey springs(instead of the red and grey) so you can cut them down to whatever length you need. It is longer in stock configuration than the red spring, so the bolt starts with very little forward force on it, but more than the red spring because is starts with more compression than the red spring. The grey spring would also have more stored energy fully compressed. I think the gold spring provides more return force than the silver spring when fully compressed, but don't quote me on that one.

I couldn't find any of my info on the grey spring. I couldn't accurately measure it because all my grey springs are cut. If anyone has the length and spring constant of a new grey spring, post it.

[livinglikeakid]

The red spring is the strongest used for chronograph speeds toward 280 range and can reset if a block is encountered. The gold standard spring is the next strongest. I leave it in most of the time. I really don't like changing pieces with changes in weather so I'm going to run a lvl7 on my Xvavle and stop monkeying around. Trigger pull feels a little lighter with the lvl7. Not sure about chopping since haven't run balls through it yet but it cycles well. RTs too easily with standard pressure.

[cockerpunk]

All else being equal, does a level 7 bolt setup produce a heavier trigger when compared to a properly installed Level 10? In theory, with the Level 10 having less initial forward force on the sear, I would think the level 10 unlatches from the sear more easily... but does this translate to reality? Or s it insignificant?

Because if there's no appreciable difference, I would think a Level 7 wouldn't be a bad choice given modern loader feed rates that would be difficult to outshoot (Rotor II, Pinokio Speed, Qloader, etc). So a Level 7 should be faster at the top end of the BPS scale compared to the LX (giving a loader more open breech time to feed) and there obviously much fewer tuning and bolt stick issues for the electro/pneu mag enthusiasts.

Basically, distilled down to the core of my reasoning, why choose LX (and any of it's headaches) over a level 7 with a modern super-loader.

1. because even modern loads skip. its a sad but true reality

2. because the Level 10 is about half the weight of a level 7, so less kick

3. because the level 10 is easier on paint than a level 7, meaning, less barrel breaks

4. the speed lost compared to a level 7 is not needed in paintball today. both bolts are capable of speeds in excess of all practical shooting applications

[Spider-TW]

4. the speed lost compared to a level 7 is not needed in paintball today. both bolts are capable of speeds in excess of all practical shooting applications

When shooting impractical speeds, your skips and end-of-loader come up more often. Once you chop, shooting any rate is just a pain, so even for silly rates the lvl 10 is still a good thing. Then you can be silly all day long.

[GoatBoy]

Some of the technical stuff in this thread is a little questionable.

A properly configured LX bolt should reduce trigger pull.

While you do have to increase pressure slightly with the LX bolt, the difference on the on/off pin is not that much compared to the bolt pressing forward on the sear itself.

The first stage of the LX bolt pushes forward with less pressure (even with the increased chamber pressure), AND the springs you're supposed to use push back on the bolt harder.

Those both make actuating the sear (trigger pull) lighter.

The L7 springs are "lighter" than the LX springs.

As a test, you can put an L7 spring on an LX bolt setup and pull the trigger.

Then put a heavier LX spring in there and pull the trigger again.

You should be able to feel a difference right there.

If you don't want to listen to any of that and only want "appeal to authority", I believe AGD stated that it was the LX bolt that made the ULT practical. Otherwise there would be no point. I.e. the bolt/sear interaction swamps the on/off action. You guys can google-fu that one and correct me if I'm wrong.

As far as efficiency, I wasn't able to get a clear difference between the bolts. Like the difference between the two was probably within the margin of measurement error.

I would say the efficiency difference would be you can't quite shoot as deep into a tank due to increased operating pressure, and the LX bolt being slightly more prone to very tiny leaks (and I suspect that is where all the perceived differences come from).

Whether or not this is worth it, I'm not even going to try to address.

[athomas]

A level 10 bolt setup will only be lighter under certain circumstances. If you go with a really stiff spring and aren't using the optimum barrel length the increase in chamber pressure and resulting force on the on-off pin more than offsets any decrease in friction force due to the sear interacting with the bolt. This results in the level 10 having a heavier trigger pull. However, if you utilize a setup that keeps the chamber pressure lower, then the lower forward force of the level 10 bolt will result in lower friction and the increase in force on the on-off pin isn't as dramatic so the overall result is a reduced trigger pull force.

If you measure the trigger pull force on a mag, and then measure the force required to push the on-off pin without the bolt installed, you will find that there isn't as much differece as you would expect. This would indicate that most of the force is actually caused by the on-off pin and not the friction of the sear on the bolt.

The efficiency of both bolt setups depends heavily on the barrel length used. Each has a different optimum value. You can't compare efficiency unless you find that optimum value. For most user setups, I think that the level 10 bolt causes the barrel length to fall farther away from the optimum length value, which is why most users experience reduced efficiency. That inefficiency is a direct result of how the level 10 dumps air compared to the level 7. Using that information, the idea for using inserts in the chamber was tried and was actually found to provide better efficiency.

[GoatBoy]

I suppose that's a valid point.

If you have the most misconfigured mag possible, it is possible that the LX bolt will turn on you and actually make your trigger pull harder and your efficiency way worse.

The majority of my testing has been with brass Freak inserts which are a close fit to the paint used. They aren't the optimum length, but a close paint match still goes a long way.

As such, those are my results -- trigger pull is noticeably lightened, and the per-shot difference in air consumption was not measurable.

Anyways, let's talk numbers. I don't have any measurements or numbers or sear geometries in front of me; this is just off the top of my head.

The on/off pin is 1/8". That makes the area 0.0122718 square inches.

Ballpark, let's say operating pressure of an L7 is 450PSI. That puts the pressure on the on/off at: 5.52 lbs.

Now let's say an LX bolt takes 75PSI more, or 525PSI. That puts the pressure on the on/off at 6.44 lbs.

That's not exactly a massive leap in my opinion. Human perception of things usually happens on logarithmic, order of magnitude type scales.

On the other hand, that same chamber pressure is pushing against the L7 bolt. Again... off the top of my head, isn't the L7 bolt 1/4"?

Surface area of that is 0.0490873 sq in. Or, literally, 4 times more surface area than the classic on/off pin.

I don't have the forward surface area of the LX bolt, but the math is leading toward a fairly obvious conclusion, even without adding in the fact that there's a heavier spring holding it back.

[athomas]

AGD indicated that the L7 bolt operated at about 350psi. The L10 bolt has been found to operate at about 550 psi in most setups. That's a 56% increase in force on the on-off pin. The diameter of the L7 bolt is 0.250" and the diameter of the L10 bolt is 0.164". At the psi values indicated, the L7 has 17.7 lbs of force going forward and the L10 has 11.6lbs. Thats a 34.7% decrease in force from the L7. So, the increase in force on the on-off pin is about 60% larger than the decrease in force on the sear when going from the L7 to the L10. Now, if the frictional forces at the L7 setup are are 60% larger than the forces on the on-off, then the decrease in friction and increase in on-off would cancel each other out. Venturing away from these values is where the trigger pull either gets lighter or heavier for one setup over another.

Given that the calculated force values for a L7 on-off pin are 4.3 lbs and the real trigger pull is indicated by AGD to be about 4lbs, I would have to say that the friction component probably doesn't have as much impact on the trigger pull force.

[GoatBoy]

I'm taking the shortcut now:


Up until Airgun Designs released the Level 10 bolt kit, bolt pressure was a major factor determining the weight of the trigger pull in their mechanical guns.

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/training/agdtech03/

[Spider-TW]

AGD indicated that the L7 bolt operated at about 350psi.

I think The Electrician measured a typical L7 setup around 425psi on HPA. The velocity, gas (HPA/CO2), barrel length & bore, and spring length should be able to cover the span of 350 to 450 pretty easily. I know that you can devolumize a classic enough on CO2 to cause the relief to pop at 280fps, which is around 600-650psi, so there is a lot of variation available in the operation of the automag. HPA fills are often ... less than accurate, to the point that a 10% loss of capacity is not huge deal (if that is what someone sees in number of shots).

[GoatBoy]

Disclaimer: had to fix previous post which had some bad math.

I think you used numbers in the act of obscuring numbers.

Assuming your lowball chamber pressure of 350PSI*, the numbers look like this:

L7 On/off force: 4.295146206
L7 Bolt Force: 17.18058482

More realistically (L7 at 400, LX at 550), the numbers look like this:

L7 On/off force: 4.908738521
L7 Bolt Force: 19.63495408

LX On/off force: 6.749515467
LX Bolt Force: 11.61823795

The LX loses a little on the on/off force, and gains a larger amount on the bolt force no matter how you slice it. On the order of 5-8 lbs. Both have springs pushing the bolt back, but the LX bolt spring is much stronger on top of that, so the difference between the two will still be sizeable.

Only part of that difference needs to translate to the sear (and I'm not assuming it's dominated by friction) to produce a net gain against what was lost in the on/off.

I can't explain the "trigger pull" numbers that you're using as I haven't verified them, and mechanical geometries may affect those numbers. (If there is mechanical advantage in the sear or where the measuring point on the trigger was taken, then the way you're doing the direct comparison is invalid.)

My gut feel is that the original L7 + classic on/off trigger pull was ~10lbs "at the trigger", and at least half of that is due to the L7 bolt pressure. I've never measured it, but I swear I saw it stated somewhere...

Here's a question: in the process of pulling the trigger, can you guarantee that the bolt *never* moves backward, even a tiny amount, prior to firing?




* Which I don't; from personal experience of having operated a gutted AIR where you can effectively measure chamber pressure, I believe an L7 is usually closer to 400. This should be doublechecked; I stopped running that setup a while back though.

Sources:

http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/rtchrono.shtml - easily above 350 at steady-state

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/automag.faq.shtml - approximately 400

http://www.docsmachine.com/tech/pressure.html - 400 to 450

(And Spider's reference)

[Spider-TW]

(And Sp[i]der's reference)

One of my favorites. I didn't see the explanation of his hookup though; it's around. He made an adapter for the power tube tip to a gauge. He set the marker for velocity, then re-assembled without the bolt and with the adapter, and measured the working pressure.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?130511-diameter-of-on-off-pin-in-the-ULT-on-off

[GoatBoy]

One of my favorites. I didn't see the explanation of his hookup though; it's around. He made an adapter for the power tube tip to a gauge. He set the marker for velocity, then re-assembled without the bolt and with the adapter, and measured the working pressure.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?130511-diameter-of-on-off-pin-in-the-ULT-on-off

Yes, much closer to what I would expect.

But the whole power tube adapter thing is taking the long way around though I think and probably gets worse results.

All you do is pull the reg piston from the AIR, and thanks to gas pressure laws, as long as you put a gauge anywhere in between the surrogate regulator and the dump chamber, you get the dump chamber pressure. And you can even fire it, although you need to give it time to reach steady state. My problem is I only have crappy gauges because good gauges are expensive and obnoxious.


Anyways, if you could fish up the trigger pull numbers for a classic, you would win. I know they were posted around the time of the ULT, and people were running around measuring trigger pull weights. Mechs came in maybe 5-7lbs, electros under an ounce, and then I swear someone posted the classic mag weight at 10lbs or more. You find that one, you win, thread closed.

Of course if people have been running around deleting posts, then ain't nobody finding crap.

Edit: found the damn thread. Problem was the... units used.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?68168-How-to-Measure-Your-Trigger-Pull-WEIGHT&pp=40

[Menace_AO]

According to AGD's RT video (@4:45), trigger pull is 2 lbs, which was purported to be roughly half that of the classic, i.e., ~4 lbs.

Sure enough, in post #104, Tyril noted that his Autoresponse frame came in at 67.2 oz or 4.2 lbs. Certainly this is not the same as the classic frame, but the idea is there all the same.

This is what made the ULT such a big deal, in that it basically cut the RT trigger pull in half.


As for pressures, AGD notes in the classic manual that the valve operates at 450 psi.

And If memory serves, the L10 runs only 470, a negligible difference.

Either way, the L10 has much lower initial forward force, and the force difference on the on/off pin is negligible, so it should have a lighter pull.

Of course, if there's anything I've learned over the years, it's that the world as it is seldom matches the world as it is on paper.

Only way to be sure is to set up one marker, do the test with the L7 bolt, then do it again with the L10.

Then we'll know.

[Spider-TW]

Edit: found the damn thread. Problem was the... units used.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?68168-How-to-Measure-Your-Trigger-Pull-WEIGHT&pp=40

That was measuring electro triggers for ULT planning, but I see your autoresponse reference.

Besides the 4 lb (classic on/off) and 2 lb (RT on/off) numbers, was the ULT 8 oz?

I've always used the chamber pressure on the diameter of the on/off pin shaft diameter (and head diameter minus residual chamber pressure). The sear arms are mostly equal in length, so I assume the exact length variations are well within actual chamber pressure changes off of 450 psi.

***

Seems like it (the ULT) calculates to 8 oz or so, but is generally taken to be 15 oz., perhaps there is 7 oz. of drag there that doesn't show up so much on the stiffer on/offs.

[Menace_AO]

As I recall, Tom indicated a 15 oz. pull, and given that was on the heels of the linked thread, that may indeed have been the actual pull.

[GoatBoy]

15oz is what the AGD store page says for the ULT.

The variance in the numbers is pretty staggering (consider the guy that hung the bag of wrenches off his trigger). They cover the entire range, which if you think about is not surprising given all the possible differences between people's setups.

The takeaways from that thread are:

1. It is really hard to judge the trigger pulls from one mech mag to another
2. People are really bad about judging trigger pulls in general

I still stand by my general logic and reasoning (otherwise it wouldn't be logic now would it?) -- within the same gun, bolt forward pressure matters to trigger pull. For L7, it has always been "significant". It can range from "significant" to "WTF?" For LX, it only takes a minor win from bolt pressure to make up lost ground on the on/off, and probably produces a really big win in the "WTF?" cases.

Just the specific numbers and relationships are hard to come by without controlled testing.

[Spider-TW]

15oz is what the AGD store page says for the ULT.

The variance in the numbers is pretty staggering (consider the guy that hung the bag of wrenches off his trigger). They cover the entire range, which if you think about is not surprising given all the possible differences between people's setups.

The takeaways from that thread are:

1. It is really hard to judge the trigger pulls from one mech mag to another
2. People are really bad about judging trigger pulls in general

I still stand by my general logic and reasoning (otherwise it wouldn't be logic now would it?) -- within the same gun, bolt forward pressure matters to trigger pull. For L7, it has always been "significant". It can range from "significant" to "WTF?" For LX, it only takes a minor win from bolt pressure to make up lost ground on the on/off, and probably produces a really big win in the "WTF?" cases.

Just the specific numbers and relationships are hard to come by without controlled testing.

I would agree. It's why I like to polish my sear pins, sears, on/off pin bottoms, and bolt edges, especially on RT setups. Some new sears have significant tool marks from being stamped, where the on/off pin rides.