Vertical feed / PF question?

[blackdeath1k]

OK. We all grasp why the pf design was used back in the 90s. And why vert is so much better today. But I've been thinking a lot lately. Or at least the last few times I've played. When using a FF hopper. In my case a rotor. Does that added geometry angles the ball is being pushed down cause any potential issues?
First im using a classic original automagRT.

I find when I play with my old revolution that I chop a ball or 2 when I outshoot the hopper. Kinda a given. Otherwise no issues at all.

Now when using a rotor all bets are off with firing speed. But I feel like the geometry involved and the FF on the ball may cause inharrent drag in the feed speed that I wouldn't otherwise have with a vertical feed body? If this makes any sense? And thus cause hickupps at times sorta like outshooting a gravity fed hopper yet not exactly?

[Cyco-Dude]

it's a non-issue as far as i'm concerned. i've got plenty of reactive set-ups with powerfeed bodies that can do 20 bps (more than i'd ever use on the field) and use a spire. works just fine! so unless you are actually having issues, i wouldn't worry about it.

[blackdeath1k]

it's a non-issue as far as i'm concerned. i've got plenty of reactive set-ups with powerfeed bodies that can do 20 bps (more than i'd ever use on the field) and use a spire. works just fine! so unless you are actually having issues, i wouldn't worry about it.

The. "And thus cause hiccups at times". Would be the issues. Hard to explain.

I do own a few parabolic PF plugs. Then I've got the old original plug. I personally can't tell a difference in them in terms of performance.

[Cyco-Dude]

well, considering the gun you are using i'd say you have no real option for a vertical feed, unless you want to track down one of those limited-run vert-feed ule rt classic bodies (sorry, i forget the name of the dude that made them...brain fart!).

get a level 10 bolt if you're getting chops, or just shoot slower lol. if 20 bps is causing issues, try tuning it down to 12 bps and see. a 12 bps rope will work just as well as a 20 bps rope!

[blackdeath1k]

well, considering the gun you are using i'd say you have no real option for a vertical feed, unless you want to track down one of those limited-run vert-feed ule rt classic bodies (sorry, i forget the name of the dude that made them...brain fart!).

get a level 10 bolt if you're getting chops, or just shoot slower lol. if 20 bps is causing issues, try tuning it down to 12 bps and see. a 12 bps rope will work just as well as a 20 bps rope!

I guarantee I've never ran 20bps. Ha-ha. I'm not that hot fingered. I do use a shp reg. But its set at 900-950. I'd venture to say I've never shot over 10bps
XMT is who made the bodies BTW. Only reason I don't own one is I refused to give up my TL barrel.

And it's not really chops. Idk. Not sure how to explain. Hence why I asked the more generalized question. And then it could all be in my head.

As for the lack of swapping parts due to this in particular marker. That's nothing my machine shop can't fix.

[vintage]

i have had an occasional double feed using that Z2 i traded you for on my RT but it usually involves the level 10 kicking back and a second ball dropping in front of the bolt while the first is held in the nubbin.

[Cyco-Dude]

hmm...maybe post a video if that's possible? does it actually shoot a blank every now and then? 10 bps is no issue for a rotor in good working condition. perhaps try using a different loader and see how it goes?

[blackdeath1k]

Ha-ha. I actually dont have a L10 in this marker. My wifes RT has one. And my prototype rt ive been working on has one. But my trusty old classic RT does not. Double feeding is a whole different issue all together. And then the double feeding you speak of is yet another kind of double feed all together. I learned real quick with FF and a nubbin there is a fine line on getting proper function without balls getting pushed in the breach. My halo2 was always bad about pushing balls past the nubbin. I soved that issue for the most part by building up the back side of the nubbin some which makes it protrude a tad more and be a little more rigid in the breach. And actually if time permits tonight I'm gonna mill a second nubbin slot.

Hmmmmmmmm. How to really explain where my question comes from..... AND! You actually did give me something to think about. And it may still be a nubbin issue. I wonder if on occasion the FF is pushing a ball in somewhat past the nubbin. But not totally past. So not a double feed persay. But enough it is causing a hiccup of sorts. Whereas I keep thinking it would be in the transition at the pf plug. It may still be at the nubbin.

This new paint is a lot smaller in consistant OD than the paint I used back in the 90s.

Maybe I need to suck it up and try a new age ule body with ball detents and a cocker barrel.... Eh! The blasphemy....

[Tunaman]

I am pretty sure TK tested this and found the powerfeed to be just as fast if not faster than vertical feed...so it is a non-issue.

[blackdeath1k]

I am pretty sure TK tested this and found the powerfeed to be just as fast if not faster than vertical feed...so it is a non-issue.

I think you are correct. But was that before or after today's standard of FF hoppers?
And That's why I said above that it could still be a nubbin issue. Vintage reminded me of the issues I ran in to converting over to FF hoppers back 3 or 4 years ago when I started playing again. Maybe I've got rid of most of said issue. But not all of it. As the one stray pigmy ball could still be causing a slight ball detent issue. Just not enough of one for a blatent chop or double feed. It's really hard to trail down an anomaly when one can't even figure out how to explain it.

[Tunaman]

I think you are correct. But was that before or after today's standard of FF hoppers?
And That's why I said above that it could still be a nubbin issue. Vintage reminded me of the issues I ran in to converting over to FF hoppers back 3 or 4 years ago when I started playing again. Maybe I've got rid of most of said issue. But not all of it. As the one stray pigmy ball could still be causing a slight ball detent issue. Just not enough of one for a blatent chop or double feed. It's really hard to trail down an anomaly when one can't even figure out how to explain it.
You are correct in that there are so many variables to contend with. Try to find a reliable combo and stick with it.

[nak81783]

A few things from my experience.
1. I've used old style plugs, parabolic plugs, and even a straight angled Spyder plug in a pinch. They all perform the same IF the bottom side of the plug is inboard of the weld joint on the powerfeed. It's this spot that causes hiccups with force feed hoppers. This is my experience with about 5 or 6 different powerfeed bodies over the years.
2. I've seen HALOs slightly push powerfeed plugs out of the tube, which then leads back to my first item. When I finally realized what was happening, I simply pulled up the oring that covers the weld gap to the outside of the plug. It looks goofy, but it worked.
3. Concerning your small paint comment, I recently posted about detent issues with my X-Mag. Thought I had that figured out in the other thread, but even smaller paint was double feeding last time I used it. Finally had to just thread lock a detent in without an oring. That got the detent in far enough to to stop the double feeding with the .667 paint, and the thread lock was needed since there was no oring to keep it from vibrating out.

Forgot to mention that, other than the parabolic plugs, the others frequently need filing/sanding of the face that contacts the feed tube to allow it to sit in far enough to prevent what I described in number 1 above. It's way easier just to buy the parabolic plugs from Tuna, but I did the filing as proof of concept when I was trying to figure it out.

[maniacmechanic]

who in the heck is makin 667 paint ?

[nak81783]

Valken. I've bore-mic'ed my inserts, and they're spot on as marked. The paint was rolling right through my .670. Checked a few at home, and they averaged .667.

[Cyco-Dude]

Valken. I've bore-mic'ed my inserts, and they're spot on as marked. The paint was rolling right through my .670. Checked a few at home, and they averaged .667.
none of the valken i've shot this year or last measured anywhere close to that, and i've shot all sorts of valken paint. you must have some old or bad batches...that's not typical.

[nak81783]

I know. I've made this comment a few times throughout this playing season, and every time someone responds as you did. Perhaps it's specific to the field chain I play at the majority of the time. Of the three other places I played this season, two use Empire (which was absolute garbage - inconsistent size, dimples, oblong) and one uses Valken (don't recall the grade or how it sized).

[blackdeath1k]

So far I love all the valken I've used. Allbeit a tad smaller than paint from years past. Overall no complaints at all. That in no way means that some fields may not buy seconds. Or any other variation of lesser grade paint from same manufacturer.

[Cyco-Dude]

I know. I've made this comment a few times throughout this playing season, and every time someone responds as you did. Perhaps it's specific to the field chain I play at the majority of the time. Of the three other places I played this season, two use Empire (which was absolute garbage - inconsistent size, dimples, oblong) and one uses Valken (don't recall the grade or how it sized).
ugh, don't get me started on empire. stuff is "marballizer" and "evil" in name only...

[vintage]

ugh, don't get me started on empire. stuff is "marballizer" and "evil" in name only...

where is the like button?

[boo]

Actually vert feed sucks for force fed loaders. Your slowly seeing manufacturers get away from them with offset feednecks.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j9WJoWtjAeA
PE did these slow mo vids and on top of learning from them how to make better bolts they also learned that vertical feednecks caused a lot more bounce in the chamber from force fed loaders.
https://planeteclipse.com/site/econs
I'm wondering if this is also why warpfeeds are sidefeed, on top of the positioning of the feeder.

I'm actually surprised straight vert feed are still an industry standard when everyone uses force fed loaders. They are a holdover from agitated loaders.

In theory, set up right, a powerfeed should be better then vert feed unless other factors are at play.


OK. We all grasp why the pf design was used back in the 90s. And why vert is so much better today. But I've been thinking a lot lately. Or at least the last few times I've played. When using a FF hopper. In my case a rotor. Does that added geometry angles the ball is being pushed down cause any potential issues?
First im using a classic original automagRT.

I find when I play with my old revolution that I chop a ball or 2 when I outshoot the hopper. Kinda a given. Otherwise no issues at all.

Now when using a rotor all bets are off with firing speed. But I feel like the geometry involved and the FF on the ball may cause inharrent drag in the feed speed that I wouldn't otherwise have with a vertical feed body? If this makes any sense? And thus cause hickupps at times sorta like outshooting a gravity fed hopper yet not exactly?

[blackdeath1k]

Boo. I would suspect nak is on to something with his #2 observation with the ff hopper pushing the plug enough to be an issue but not stand out as noticeable during play. Due to this. I plan on putting a retainer on my plug next time I play and see if any noticeable unconsistant feeding takes place.

As for pf or vertical feed. Personally I'm 100% content with my classic old marker as long as there are no issues. And this is the final issue that I'm finding at all. As the rest we're fixed with a 100% go thru on the valve. And modifying the nubbins.

[nak81783]

I've always been able to get 15 bps from powerfeeds once the Automag powerfeed plug issue was resolved and a detent issue was resolved with an electronic-framed Spyder. I've also had much better luck with reflective eyes (E2 Autococker and X-Mag) than breakbeam (Nerve and Axe Pro). This is with a Halo; never saw the need to upgrade. I run semi, single finger, so I'm only set at/pulling 8-12bps depending on field/league rules and/or what the competition is doing (e.g., 8bps when playing against rentals). So, although the PE modifications seem logical to improve performance, I don't know where they would be needed. That said, i would take a Mustang over a Focus, in a race of the latter, so I understand the allure.

[vintage]

are you using your RT barrel Jason?

[blackdeath1k]

are you using your RT barrel Jason?

RT barrel? As in the OEM? No. I've got a 12" dye ultralite I've used forever.

[SummaryJudgement]

Actually vert feed sucks for force fed loaders. Your slowly seeing manufacturers get away from them with offset feednecks.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j9WJoWtjAeA
PE did these slow mo vids and on top of learning from them how to make better bolts they also learned that vertical feednecks caused a lot more bounce in the chamber from force fed loaders.
https://planeteclipse.com/site/econs
I'm wondering if this is also why warpfeeds are sidefeed, on top of the positioning of the feeder.

I'm actually surprised straight vert feed are still an industry standard when everyone uses force fed loaders. They are a holdover from agitated loaders.

In theory, set up right, a powerfeed should be better then vert feed unless other factors are at play.

Thanks for the vids! And everyone stating vert feed is a holdover from agitating days is correct in my opinion. Remember when Angels started having freakishly tall feednecks to have a ball-stack? That's because they were out shooting the Revys of the day. Side-fed warp styles and warped PFs have always worked fairly well. And Power Feeds or even just angled feednecks fought the blow-back (gas into feednecks) issues the blow-forwards/open-bolts suffered back when Tippmanns and Spyders were the norm and mags and cockers were the only real "high end" markers you'd see at a field.

Just my two cents :)

[nak81783]

Vertical feed being remnant from agitated hopper days seems reasonable, but given the existing bps caps, is there need for change? My guess is you'll have players complaining about the .250" or whatever offset from a symmetric marker. "Aw, man! I got hit on my hopper on the offset side. If only this thing were a vertical feed!"

[blackdeath1k]

People will always find something to complain about.

I really don't remember vert feed being a standard until after FF came out. Everything pre 2000 that was mainstream was standard side feed or PF. But reguardless it used an elbow. Feed stacks were high to add weight and ball count to avoid chopping balls.

Reguardless. As far as I'm concerned. Long as my marker is shooting consistent I'm perfectly happy with my pf setup. And I would really suspect nak is on to something with the pf plug shifting in its space.

[Cyco-Dude]

i dunno, those o-rings hold them in pretty good. i seriously doubt any force-feed loader is going to move it.

[blackdeath1k]

i dunno, those o-rings hold them in pretty good. i seriously doubt any force-feed loader is going to move it.

My halo2 pushed it out multiple times. So it stands to reason that the rotor could push it enough to be an issue. Yet not real noticeable without focusing on the plug.

[nak81783]

When I've seen it happen, it's less than .100" but enough to expose the weld joint.

[Menace_AO]

Pretty certain that paintballs don't much care how or by what path they are loaded into a breech. Assuming the same force from the loader, right, center, left, vertical, diagonal, etc. makes little difference. Force is force, and the number of turns, bends, etc. prior to breech should have minimal impact on performance.

Concerning the offset feedneck and paintball bounce theory as indicated in the PE video, that is positively dubious. In fact, the video itself completely refutes that notion. After ball #1 fires and the bolt retracts, ball #2 falls into the breech under its own weight, bounces, falls again under its own weight, bounces again, and then balls 3 & 4 (damaged in the loader) are pushed down on top of it. Notice that they come down together, unlike ball #2. You can clearly see (though the paint) that after the damaged balls are shot (both #3 and #4 are eliminated in a single cycle), all the subsequent balls in the stack fall directly under pressure, and bouncing is insignificant. So #5 (covered in paint) drops with #6 directly on top of it, and almost zero bounce/dribble. #5 is fired, clearing things up a bit, then # 6 drops with #7 directly on top of it, and again, essentially no bounce/dribble.

This of course fits with the principle of force vs. gravity feeding. Having continuous even pressure on a stack of soft spheroids will pretty well eliminate the possibility of breech-dribbling, regardless of how the feedneck is oriented to the breech.

Honestly, after watching that video closely, I'm not entirely certain whether and to what extent it is actually instructive.

To the original issue, so long as you run a parabolic feed plug to eliminate undue stresses on the balls, there should be no meaningful difference in fed cyclic rate from this to a vert feed, or side feed, or whatever.

For me the only disadvantages a powerfeed has are (a) that the feed tube is open to the elements, to dirt, and most especially, to incoming fire, and (b) the need for an elbow if not running a warp/Q setup.

[SummaryJudgement]

Vertical feed being remnant from agitated hopper days seems reasonable, but given the existing bps caps, is there need for change? My guess is you'll have players complaining about the .250" or whatever offset from a symmetric marker. "Aw, man! I got hit on my hopper on the offset side. If only this thing were a vertical feed!"

True, true :)

However, I'm a righty and usually played right tape or at least was shooting from the right side of the bunker or obstacle I was behind, so my left feed cocker managed to keep the hopper a little more out of the way. Shooting out the left side provided a different situation though ;)

[Nobody]

I believe that vert feed has more to do with:

1) easier manufacturing, in both singular body designs & overall design of the body
2) better center of gravity
3) ease of shooting, i.e. it doesn't matter if you shoot right or left handed
4) easier loader usage, i.e. what we have now as opposed to better or more practical loaders

To expand on the loaders, i believe many people just crank them up to go as fast & and as hard as possible. If you are playing in a sub 13bps league/field, you do not need a loader that can feed 20bps+, yet you will never see anyone play with a revy, even though the gun is capped in RoF or the eyes will prevent a misfire on a half feed.

I will over feed a blind gun, but a gun with eyes or a mag with a L10 does not need the loader spitting paint as fast as it can. Yes, paint across the board is poor; from inconsistent shell, flight path, breakage and accuracy, but to not look at the whole of the feed system is an injustice & blaming something that each player could correct.

So tailor the loader to how or what you are playing with. And with closed bolt vs open, cocker vs mag, spool vs poppit; there is no one best way, one setup to go with. The emperical data is limited as the keystone is a inconsistent gelatin ball that shoved around in pallets, thrown around in warehouses, dropped into a tube, thrust into a loader, pushed into the breech, shot out of a barrel, then told to break at a specific moment. :)

[Spider-TW]

I find when I play with my old revolution that I chop a ball or 2 when I outshoot the hopper. Kinda a given. Otherwise no issues at all.

With a revvy and the old power feed plug, I would almost always chop the third ball in the stack (first around the corner) on a classic mag, if I tried to go fast (which was probably an ambush).

I wanted a level 10 bolt, so I went with the x-valve upgrade program and got a new PF plug at the same time. My chops went away, but I knew the L10 was working on occasion. Upgrading the loader and bottle regulators and fiddling around, the x-valve loosened up (started getting more reactive) one day during a scenario. I got card-punched by a ref for shooting 19bps (15 limit). I got him to keep checking me until I got my max-flo adjusted down to 14-15. There was a little flat spot at high pressure where it didn't change until it got below 1000 psi (from 1100). After that, it was very linear. That body fed just fine.

Not really blaming the PF plug for lack of evidence, I didn't think too much about it. It was years before I got back to a simple power feed minimag body. It had a new plug in it, but was a bare marker. For the "final battle" of a rec ball day, I threw a full 12 oz CO2 bottle on the front and 200 round gravity hopper on top to see what it would do. We played a small field, instant respawn game for 10 minutes. I went through the whole bottle and iced it over with out a single break (>500 rounds). After that, I decided I liked the new plugs.

New revvys aren't much smaller or lighter than a halo or newer loader. They are so tall that they hang off an elbow just as poorly. With a good PF plug and/or a level 10 bolt, I prefer a plain hopper. I still have my smaller, original revvy with exposed electronics (150 round?), but I don't see it as worth the battery for play.

[GoatBoy]

I second the recommendation to turn the force feed loaders down. Whenever I get new q-loader pods, the first thing I do is turn down the factory tension because I obviously don't need 30bps worth of force, and as with everything, force goes nonlinear with speed/acceleration.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlu5AS0rEEs

That's a *9v* Revvy, on CO2, on a Classic mag with a stock ULE body (not a high rise). I get about 6-7 shots before a chuff breaks my cadence; never any broken paint though.

The real trick is to get the intellifeed switch wired up if you're using an electronic loader.

If you get a longer neck, or a force feed loader, you should be able to do better than this, easily.

[blackdeath1k]

When I use my OLD first run revvy. Ya know. The model that took the place of the old VL shreader. I only would outshoot the stack hit and miss. 4-5 ball strings were safe. 6-7 was pushing it. 8-9 was a guaranteed chop. Even after buying the halo I'd play with the revvy quite a bit. Since weight was a big difference. And for the most part I didn't have any issues with the revvy. But now that I have a rotor I love that thing. So easy to just open and wype out at the end of the day. And it just works. No tuning or adjustments. It just works.

As for my pf plugs pushing out. Neither of my other 2 mags have any issues at all with the plugs staying put. They are pretty stout inside the feed tubes. This could be why my wife has never had an issue with my old halo on her gun. However It has always been super easy for me to remove the pf plug from my automagrt. And the halo would push it out sometimes. Since switching to the rotor though the plug has never been actually pushed out. So that hadn't crossed my mind. But NAK commenting about it moving at all and causing an issue. It just stands to reason that could be the case still. Just instead of pushing it way back. It just pushes enough to be an issue for perfect feeding.

[Gadget]

I've been playing limited loader events pretty much exclusively this year (max 50 ball gravity loader) and have found that the powerfeed body is brilliant for these, with the longer ball stack making misfeeds far less likely.

[cockerpunk]

actually vert feed, and SHORT vert feeds are better for force feed loaders. powerfeed died shortly there-after because of this.

powerfeed, is like a high rise feedneck. the argument being that you stack a lot of balls on top of the gun, after the loader, this gives the loader a long time to respond for the first firing, to fill the stack, and thus you should come closer to the ~13bps theoretical speed gravity can feed. powerfeed plays a trick on this, by using blowback up the feedtube to rather than slow down the loading process, to give the ball something to bounce off of and bounce back into the gun. so between the anti-blowback feature, and the long ball stack, on a revy fed gun, you will have the best loading.

but this all changes with force feed and constant tension ball stacks.

force feed loaders actually feed faster with a shorter ball stack. this is because simple f=mA. you have a constant force being applied to the mass of the ball stack. so the shorter the ball stack (less mass), the faster the acceleration can be. this is why the first generation of low rise and super low rises came into popularity with the halo. blowback is much less of a problem as well, because you hold the ball stack in tension anyway.

and with a force feed loader, you NEED to use the parabolic plug.

[cockerpunk]

Pretty certain that paintballs don't much care how or by what path they are loaded into a breech. Assuming the same force from the loader, right, center, left, vertical, diagonal, etc. makes little difference. Force is force, and the number of turns, bends, etc. prior to breech should have minimal impact on performance.

Concerning the offset feedneck and paintball bounce theory as indicated in the PE video, that is positively dubious. In fact, the video itself completely refutes that notion. After ball #1 fires and the bolt retracts, ball #2 falls into the breech under its own weight, bounces, falls again under its own weight, bounces again, and then balls 3 & 4 (damaged in the loader) are pushed down on top of it. Notice that they come down together, unlike ball #2. You can clearly see (though the paint) that after the damaged balls are shot (both #3 and #4 are eliminated in a single cycle), all the subsequent balls in the stack fall directly under pressure, and bouncing is insignificant. So #5 (covered in paint) drops with #6 directly on top of it, and almost zero bounce/dribble. #5 is fired, clearing things up a bit, then # 6 drops with #7 directly on top of it, and again, essentially no bounce/dribble.

This of course fits with the principle of force vs. gravity feeding. Having continuous even pressure on a stack of soft spheroids will pretty well eliminate the possibility of breech-dribbling, regardless of how the feedneck is oriented to the breech.

Honestly, after watching that video closely, I'm not entirely certain whether and to what extent it is actually instructive.

To the original issue, so long as you run a parabolic feed plug to eliminate undue stresses on the balls, there should be no meaningful difference in fed cyclic rate from this to a vert feed, or side feed, or whatever.

For me the only disadvantages a powerfeed has are (a) that the feed tube is open to the elements, to dirt, and most especially, to incoming fire, and (b) the need for an elbow if not running a warp/Q setup.

PEs offset feedneck is designed to stop last ball bouncing mostly. and that is a real phenomena for sure. that is when a nice force feed loader is running low on paint, it tends to run pretty dry, and throws balls into the breach with a large gap between them, which bounce off the bottom of the breach, trigger the eyes, start back up the feedneck, and are promptly chopped the closing bolt.

im not really sure how well it works. but the theory seems sound enough.

[Menace_AO]

I concur on low/last ball bounce phenomenon, and should have clarified in my post that I was not accounting for that. Good catch.

Also concur that the offset principle has some merit. Just not sure any of it was demonstrated in the video.

In any case, your post does inspire me to do some breech testing to see if it actually does make a meaningful difference with respect to bounce.