PTP Fascination

[going_home]

Why is it that some people are all gaga over any markers by Pro Team Products ?

I just dont get it, the Micromags, the Cockers, why ?

When you get past the anodizing (if the have other than black) they arent much IMHO.

Am I biased because of the 2009 Micromag debacle , or the one that happened over on custom cockers ?

:confused:

[GoatBoy]

I invoke my "corn dog analogy" for situations like this.

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/517830873895694336/jGumFWpC.jpeg

Corn dogs are disgusting. They are a culinary perversion.

But sometimes, for some reason, you just want a corn dog. You regret it afterwards, but by that time, it's obviously too late.

I think it's essentially the same thing for some people with PTP products. For others, it's Tippmann products. They know better, but sometimes, they cave into the perversion.

We all gotta have our outlets, so as far as that goes, maybe it's not the worst thing ever.

[wetwrks]

The 2009 thing killed it for a lot of us. I was never big on the original Micromag with the integral barrel but took notice once they issued the models with the threaded barrels. Loved the different annos they did...but never owned one till just before they started offering the 2009 deal. Got in on that...still have it...still saddened that they didn't uphold their promises and that the product ended up basically junk.

[nak81783]

I would assume it's the same rationale given for splash Mags a while ago. When Autocockers and Automags were in their prime, there were all kinds of custom, private label, and special edition Cockers. Automags had fewer such options, so those looking for a little something different went to splash and PTP.

As for the MM2K9, doesn't Luke offer a machining service to make them not junk?

Edit: Nevermind. I see on his site the service was discontinued. I will always be curious what the fix was. And now why it was discontinued. Did it only work on some of the bodies?

[boo]

The ano on the PTP mags and cockers are works of art, literally, the guy that did them left PK select and is a full time artist. Never really understood the black and non pk select ones. Also, they are a pretty good deal for a railless cocker threaded mag. I've never been a fan of the stainless bodies mainly because ano options were pretty boring. Even the splash mags are ruined by having that big chrome body and in some cases a polymer frame.

Prices of mags in PK select ano are around $300, around $500 for the emags, and $400 for cockers. All less then what you'd pay for just the ano job to replicate the old PK select look.

They were liked up until that 2009 and then they followed that disaster with that pump sniper that had all sorts of issues with the ano and sc feed.

It's really interesting how a decent company can release **** products towards the end and tank the value of the earlier better quality products. Kind of like WDP and the A1, WGP with the trilogy and sr, and SP and the ion.

[MANN]

For the record I was banned for asking questions about ptp's quality when they built the last body. Beemer considered it trolling to point out their terrible tolerances. Sad thing is that iirc I was quoting Tunaman. I have owned several PTP Emags. Most had problems.

[Tunaman]

For the record I was banned for asking questions about ptp's quality when they built the last body. Beemer considered it trolling to point out their terrible tolerances. Sad thing is that iirc I was quoting Tunaman. I have owned several PTP Emags. Most had problems.

Most...if not all had some problems. You are correct.

[luke]

Did it only work on some of the bodies?

As far as I know I was able to increase velocity on the ones I did.


I will always be curious what the fix was. And now why it was discontinued.

For very specific (NON-selfish) reasons I have chosen to keep the info to myself. However, I will say I just want to distance myself from the MM2K9 and that I'm not really interested in the "mod" market. I will will always offer some services, just not looking to expand it any further than it is. Actually I have been trimming the mods for sometime now.

[correia3]

The anno patterns are beautiful but the actual lines and features of the products never spoke to me. I would equate the pretty anno to the old saying "putting lipstick on a pig".

[Sk8ermog]

For me it was a nostalgia thing. Always wanted a micromag from seeing their ads in APG and one of my friends in highschool had one.

This is my first Micromag, which turned out to be rare because the feedneck is on the reversed side. Still looking to buy this gun back.

http://m7.i.pbase.com/o9/15/525015/1/154186077.MuZh6W5u.newmicromag1.jpg

Once I got my first Micromag I was hooked. They take cocker barrels and the body/rail are one piece. Seemed like a no brainer to me.

About 2 years ago I started on a mission to own every gun and product that PTP ever made. I came pretty close...

http://m6.i.pbase.com/g9/15/525015/2/161434086.CLuAwsdQ.jpg
http://m0.i.pbase.com/g9/15/525015/2/161434030.vu87kY74.jpg
http://m6.i.pbase.com/g9/15/525015/2/161434026.bxu0sa8r.jpg
http://m8.i.pbase.com/g9/15/525015/2/161434108.4t4sRntE.jpg
http://m8.i.pbase.com/g9/15/525015/2/159326958.gjXHnmkx.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/rgunn4/ptp_museum

So after having more PTP products then Forest (owner of PTP) currently has... I choose to pair down to just 2 Micromags and a PTP cocker.

I sold off a lot of my guns because I wanted to focus on other projects since I pretty much accomplished what I set out to do and I felt it was time to move on. I'm sure I'll buy more PTP guns down the road.

As for issues with PTP... I've only ever had a problem with a MM2K9 not fitting a xvalve till LUKE milled it for me. It also didn't fit my hyperframe so I sold it off.

I now have this project with Caustic Customs and hope to make it my primary mech/electro. ;)

http://m7.i.pbase.com/g9/15/525015/2/161963817.xnlxTU4Z.jpg

Needless to say I am a fan of PTP products. ;)

[Spider-TW]

I would applaud PTP's marketing enthusiasm and machining capability, but I have not had much luck with their shipping, and their quality control problems are apparent. If I have one of their products in hand and working, I find them pretty nice and relatively worthy. I prefer a used PTP product to ordering a new one. Many of their designs I don't like, but I don't hold that against them.

I don't get it either. They have a lot of stuff that works, so I've assumed that there is some personal preference in there. ....it could be like a corndog indeed....I'll try to remember that next time I have one, maybe with some Dr. Pepper.

[vintage]

i own 4 now and it was the anno that first attracted me to them and will be the reason i buy any more. i've used the black one and other than having to change loaders due to a double feed problem i've had no real problems with it.

[going_home]

Most...if not all had some problems. You are correct.

I didn't want to mention your past comments about them but now it's evident.



;)

[BigEvil]

Starting a thread with anything "PTP" in the title is like putting up the batsignal for Ross :D

[Nobody]

I too don't understand the fascination with them. Before the advent of ULE bodies. The cocker threading was a benefit, but now i see them as cool anno but antiquated. They are heavy, even heavier with a classic valve. Plus, the double trigger frames or just benchmark frames in general are or have a poor safety design(always coming out when you least expect it) and the tolerances have a lot to be desired, compared to intelliframes.

Eh, different strokes for different folks. Guess me not wanting them means more of a chance for those that do.

[BigEvil]

I will say, I LOVED all the money I made fixing them :)

[Sk8ermog]

Lol BigEvil. I do tend to gravitate toward PTP posts. Doesn't help that I do mass searches online for anything PTP related.

Sounds like I am one of the rare few who has really never had any major issues with PTP products.

[going_home]

I'm still waiting for the $15 dollar refund for the proprietary sear pin.

And the free T shirt, and I paid $20 for an extra T shirt.......

God forgives and forgets, I forgave them but I can't forget it.

[luke]

I'm still waiting for the $15 dollar refund for the proprietary sear pin.

And the free T shirt, and I paid $20 for an extra T shirt.......



ditto

[zondo]

The 2K9s are basically a stylish slug body. There is enough meat to make it whatever you want if you're skilled or want to spend the money. The only issue I had with my 2K9 was the velocity issue and Luke fixed that. I know BigEvil keeps telling me the detents are in the wrong spot too. When I had it, I didn't get any feed problems despite that.

I may pick it back up this summer :D

[MAGgot]

The Micromag offered a solution for all of the Automag's downsides: lighter aluminum body w/ integrated rail, cocker threads, improved detents.
Add to that the finest factory ano options ever offered on any gun.

[JKR]

I own one black Micromag and have zero issues with it. Why did I want it to begin with? Compact, lightweight body with interchangeable barrels with a more old school cool factor that some run of the mill ULE body.

[kutter]

It must be nostalgia for me. My Micro was my first truly good gun. I was not crazy about the single trigger, but an Intelliframe fixed that. Mine performed flawlessly until the day I put it into storage. I took it out 8 years later and it needed a rebuild kit, now it is just as happy as always. As I think someone said, it was a ULE before there was a ULE. It is fairly light, really light compared to my SFL. And pretty compact with a tight barrel. I like that fact that its a true mechanical and the RT makes it as competitive as anything else.

[Frizzle Fry]

Why is it that some people are all gaga over any markers by Pro Team Products ?

I just dont get it, the Micromags, the Cockers, why ?

When you get past the anodizing (if the have other than black) they arent much IMHO.

Am I biased because of the 2009 Micromag debacle , or the one that happened over on custom cockers ?

:confused:

It was EARLY and it was COMMITTED.

PTP was one of the first major, nationwide offerings of full production factory customer markers with MFG approval that I encountered. They were available in shops and catalogs, supported and approved by AGD, WGP, ICD and Sheridan, and they came in cool cuts and colors. Sure, there were custom shops doing similar things but not full production and not always widely available. In a world where everything was black, or silver, or one solid color, their offerings made a difference and really jumped out at buyers - there wasn't a PBN list of 20+ anodizers to easily choose from then, either. Most of their markers had functional upgrades as well as cosmetic ones, and they kept refining their platforms for a solid decade with multiple generations of markers, each an improvement over the last.

The MM2K9 thing was a fiasco; I was there too, but it doesn't really reflect who PTP was when they were REALLY in the paintball business from the early 90s to the early 2000s...

Imagine if Pontiac or Oldsmobile came back from the dead to make a one-off product based entirely on customer requests, but didn't really have the means to produce it anymore and the car turned out terrible - It might suck for customers, but it shouldn't reflect on their prior years of revolutionary developments and classic vehicles.

[Nobody]

It was EARLY and it was COMMITTED.

PTP was one of the first major, nationwide offerings of full production factory customer markers with MFG approval that I encountered. They were available in shops and catalogs, supported and approved by AGD, WGP, ICD and Sheridan, and they came in cool cuts and colors. Sure, there were custom shops doing similar things but not full production and not always widely available. In a world where everything was black, or silver, or one solid color, their offerings made a difference and really jumped out at buyers - there wasn't a PBN list of 20+ anodizers to easily choose from then, either. Most of their markers had functional upgrades as well as cosmetic ones, and they kept refining their platforms for a solid decade with multiple generations of markers, each an improvement over the last.

The MM2K9 thing was a fiasco; I was there too, but it doesn't really reflect who PTP was when they were REALLY in the paintball business from the early 90s to the early 2000s...

Imagine if Pontiac or Oldsmobile came back from the dead to make a one-off product based entirely on customer requests, but didn't really have the means to produce it anymore and the car turned out terrible - It might suck for customers, but it shouldn't reflect on their prior years of revolutionary developments and classic vehicles.

PTP never had anything to do with ICD.

Though they were one of the first companies to offer options for guns(namely the automag) that had little to no options, they were not the best when other options came about. Its easy to corner the market when you are alone in the field. It is sorely a different story when new and possibly better quality products come about from other companies...

And please tell me, what revolutionary things did PTP do? Ocfering a different body/setup than what AGD had, yes nice, but if you do not adjust to the market trends & what players need, you will die in the products that whither on the shelves.

[JKR]

... but if you do not adjust to the market trends & what players need, you will die in the products that whither on the shelves.

Pretty much the same thing that has been said of AGD.

Unfortunately, what players need and what they want are two different things. In an industry whose backbone of customers are young men 14-20 years old, it was far too easy to poison the water hole for the various marketing groups. Faster, lighter, faster, add some bling, make it faster, more efficient, make it faster...and boom! Now we live in a time where the industry as a whole is on life support compared to the late 1990s and early 2000s and everyone suffers. Well, except some of those niche shops (Palmers, CCM) who specialize and customize and often go the opposite direction of industry conventional wisdom.

[GoatBoy]

Pretty much the same thing that has been said of AGD.

Unfortunately, what players need and what they want are two different things. In an industry whose backbone of customers are young men 14-20 years old, it was far too easy to poison the water hole for the various marketing groups. Faster, lighter, faster, add some bling, make it faster, more efficient, make it faster...and boom! Now we live in a time where the industry as a whole is on life support compared to the late 1990s and early 2000s and everyone suffers. Well, except some of those niche shops (Palmers, CCM) who specialize and customize and often go the opposite direction of industry conventional wisdom.

So this preoccupation with "bestest factory anno job", which appears to be a dominant theme here -- does that fall under what players "want", or what players "need"?

[going_home]

Imagine if Pontiac or Oldsmobile came back from the dead to make a one-off product based entirely on customer requests, but didn't really have the means to produce it anymore and the car turned out terrible - It might suck for customers, but it shouldn't reflect on their prior years of revolutionary developments and classic vehicles.

But thats the point, it absolutely does reflect on everything PTP.





:nono:

[Nobody]

Pretty much the same thing that has been said of AGD.

Unfortunately, what players need and what they want are two different things. In an industry whose backbone of customers are young men 14-20 years old, it was far too easy to poison the water hole for the various marketing groups. Faster, lighter, faster, add some bling, make it faster, more efficient, make it faster...and boom! Now we live in a time where the industry as a whole is on life support compared to the late 1990s and early 2000s and everyone suffers. Well, except some of those niche shops (Palmers, CCM) who specialize and customize and often go the opposite direction of industry conventional wisdom.

Actually, yes. AGD had admitted so much, with the late introduction of the ULE body, or more importantly, a threaded body. It is surmised that there are still thousands of powerfeed bodies in storage(or have been recycled-if they could be or scraped-more likely) that were bought for that cost AGD more than just money.

Palmers is a mere shadow of itself. What was the last thing they had done, the lance? Ot exactly taking the market by storm. CCM(you shouldn't have gone there) is ****. They "reinvented" the pump scene, so you have overpriced production guns that could be made for 1/4th the price of their guns. Its not a custom shop, it just gives options on anno, but their barrels and regs suck. The SR1 was a failure and the JL2 or whatever did not sell. I think there where other problems, but i would needed to have cared to pay attention to it.

A better view is what Inception Designs is doing. As they are a small shop, they are putting out great products with fantasic customer service. But the key is, they are not putting out products for the flavor of the month or fanboy market. They are looking at the diehards and lifers that keep the sport going. That is where the market is or needs to be. Put out a product that people want, for a good price and then see what the people are asking for. If you dictate what you will make, then people will go elsewhere.

So no, you are wrong.

[GoatBoy]

Actually, yes. AGD had admitted so much, with the late introduction of the ULE body, or more importantly, a threaded body. It is surmised that there are still thousands of powerfeed bodies in storage(or have been recycled-if they could be or scraped-more likely) that were bought for that cost AGD more than just money.


Wait wait what? I'm not sure if I misunderstood your sentence structure... but what?!

Cuz you know, those stainless bodies are more valuable to me than the ULE ones. That would be a freaking shame if they were scrapped.


Palmers is a mere shadow of itself. What was the last thing they had done, the lance? Ot exactly taking the market by storm. CCM(you shouldn't have gone there) is ****. They "reinvented" the pump scene, so you have overpriced production guns that could be made for 1/4th the price of their guns. Its not a custom shop, it just gives options on anno, but their barrels and regs suck. The SR1 was a failure and the JL2 or whatever did not sell. I think there where other problems, but i would needed to have cared to pay attention to it.


I LOL'd. Even I decided not to touch that one.

But I'm not above dogpiling on top.

Palmers: The $1224 Auto-Lance. Exactly what players want AND need!

CCM: The $1199 SSR. Bolt action, BECAUSE REASON!

CCM has flatly stated IT DOES NOT DO CUSTOM WORK.


Some of you... I swear it sounds like you took oaths of fealty to these manufacturers. This is going beyond corn dog territory. I will have to rethink the analogy.

[JKR]

That is where the market is or needs to be. Put out a product that people want, for a good price and then see what the people are asking for. If you dictate what you will make, then people will go elsewhere.



Wait, what?

So as a manufacturer, you put out what someone wants at a good price and then wait to see if someone else wants your piece? You don't do a cost/risk analysis, even as a niche shop, to determine your feasibility of saying "yes" or "no" to a job?

[Nobody]

Wait wait what? I'm not sure if I misunderstood your sentence structure... but what?!

Cuz you know, those stainless bodies are more valuable to me than the ULE ones. That would be a freaking shame if they were scrapped.

More valuable to you, but the majority of mags now use threaded barrels. There are some "purest" out there, and i wouldn't begrudge them from keeping their twist locks, but the choices cor more modern barrels is limited. I remember in passing that AGD did have a slew of bodies made, but then the idea or implementation of the threaded body became pretty much standard. Look at why people went for PTP micromags? The aluminium bodies(not only could be anno'd for personal tastes) but had the better barrel choice(NOT necessarily the better barrel system).



I LOL'd. Even I decided not to touch that one.

But I'm not above dogpiling on top.

Palmers: The $1224 Auto-Lance. Exactly what players want AND need!

CCM: The $1199 SSR. Bolt action, BECAUSE REASON!

CCM has flatly stated IT DOES NOT DO CUSTOM WORK.


Some of you... I swear it sounds like you took oaths of fealty to these manufacturers. This is going beyond corn dog territory. I will have to rethink the analogy.

Sorry, my statement was disjointed. At work, frustrated and hating people.

You sir are in the minority of wants. Do you have either of the top priced guns? Yes, that is very generic to say, as i do have generic purchases: an axe, a resurrection, an ego. But mine is an ID Krypontite Axe, a ID Ripper Resurrection and an older Ego06.

The arch of guns has always been in this century has been: electros, mechs, pumps then stock class/mag feed. To a point, you have to go to the biggest market to survive. Making a few of this or that does not set the world on fire. A bolt action gun? That is a novelty, pure and simple. Without firststrikes, it is even less of a novelty. Its an expensive paperweight. Maybe i am on the wrong coast for Palmers, but if they were great, where is the push for them to be at every field? Now i do love a blazer. I will get one, if i can find the right one, but i do not need it...

Now i do fully support the companies i like. AGD, ICD, ID. I believe in their products, use their products. I try to get people to also support them. I won't twist their arms if they don't use, yet will always be their suggesting them. If i can convert 1 person to what i use, then i am a happy person.

You sir, are unique. In the way yoj play, bow you set up your gear. If the fields where filled with you, then you would be in the majority, thusly not be unique. I take no umbridge if you disagree. I, in fact like it. That is how discussions & understanding happens.

[Cyco-Dude]

...but the majority of mags now use threaded barrels.

i'll go ahead and disagree with that. based on what i've seen over the past few years, and even what i have in my collection, steel bodies with twistlock barrels outnumber threaded bodies by at least 5-to-1. lots and lots and lots of classic 'mags still out there, and still kicking butt! ;)

[going_home]

I'll go ahead and say it, powerfeeds with elbows, and twist locks are junk.

Hoppers flipping around, no fun to replace barrel detents........

[MAGgot]

Trying not to feed the trolls here... it's hard to resist.

There was a good thread on this a few years ago. http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?266469-micro-mags&highlight=ptp+micromag
Micromags were a very good value when compared to the base Automag price and other custom markers of that time. They remained popular for nearly 10 years.

http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Micromags.jpg

Here's some reasons why Micromags were/are awesome

http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DSCF0165.jpg

http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DSCF0151.jpg

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http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DSCF0157.jpg

http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DSCF0152.jpg

http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DSCF0160.jpg

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http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DSCF0156.jpg

http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DSCF0148.jpg

http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DSCF0155.jpg

http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DSCF0153.jpg

http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DSCF0261.jpg

http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DSCF0166.jpg

http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DSCF0163.jpg

http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DSCF0170.jpg

http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DSCF0167.jpg

[Frizzle Fry]

PTP never had anything to do with ICD.

Yes, they did... markers and accesories. In fact they hold the patent for the 'cat series firing system; the roller valve.




Though they were one of the first companies to offer options for guns(namely the automag) that had little to no options, they were not the best when other options came about. Its easy to corner the market when you are alone in the field. It is sorely a different story when new and possibly better quality products come about from other companies...

You want a list? First aluminum Automag body, first unibody Automag, first threaded-barrel Automag, the first threaded sear pin. Popularized the 45 frame for Automag and Autococker - it became the standard on most markers for a decade to follow. Put a factory detent on the Autococker before WGP did, and put a superior detent on automags, VM68s and M98s. Put powerfeeds on Autocockers, VM68s and M98s. Put trigger adjustment screws in Autococker frames. Offered double trigger Automag and Autococker frames. These all seem pretty standard now, but weren't then.

Maybe you had to be there, playing, to appreciate what PTP did and what they offered in their heyday... Those who started in the late 90s and early 2000s are somewhat spoiled in two senses; first, most markers came with detents, velocity adjusters, regulators and expansion chamber, and were designed to be easy to strip and adjust. Second, the internet and the "big business" era of paintball made a lot of options available nationwide, including many marker colors, truly drop-in upgrades, and easy to find, paintball-oriented anodizing services. Private labels and customshop guns produced in large numbers.

When I started playing you could buy from a catalog or on the shelf at a local shop, and most guns were bricks or tubes in silver or black, maybe a solid color. My first autococker was a Boston Paintball Express with some simple cuts, a trigger job, and a handful of upgrade parts from various brands. Custom options were regional or catalog order items, many of which were "garage customs" offered by fields and custom shops, with raw cuts and hand-done trigger jobs. PTP offered "factory customs" with a unique and uniform finish, piles of "upgrades" ready to go from the factory, cheaper than Carters or BBTs, and as easily available in California as they were in Massachusetts. That model was copied and echoed by other companies for years to come.



And please tell me, what revolutionary things did PTP do? Ocfering a different body/setup than what AGD had, yes nice, but if you do not adjust to the market trends & what players need, you will die in the products that whither on the shelves.

Their products did not wither on the shelf when paintball was their focus; they did MANY revolutionary things when paintball was their focus, and owned a decent market share for as long as Autocockers and Automags were a competitive standard. After 9/11 they shifted their focus to military contracts, did a crummy deal with Viewloader, and focused on military grade milsim Tippmann accessories... rather than moving on to Intimidators and Matrixes when they became the tournament standard. In that sense, they copied market trends (milsim on the rise, big-box store guns gaining popularity) but simply made the wrong choices.

[Cyco-Dude]

I'll go ahead and say it, powerfeeds with elbows, and twist locks are junk.

Hoppers flipping around, no fun to replace barrel detents........

*shrugs* junk in your opinion, of course. in the end it's just an aluminum (or steel, or brass!) tube...it does the job. also, my hoppers don't flip around (armson pro-feed elbow!), and the detents take an o-ring pick and 15 seconds to change lol.

[going_home]

You are right, just an opinion, they are like feet, most people have them and most of them stink...

[vintage]

I prefer twist lock barrels and I buy micro mags mainly for the finish and the more accessories that match the better. my only complaint with the PTP elbows is they aren't see thru.

[MAGgot]

Great post, Frizzle! Really sums things up much more eloquently than I could have put it.


Maybe you had to be there, playing, to appreciate what PTP did and what they offered in their heyday...
This part especially rings true. These days it's easy to say "the cocker threaded mag body is common", but by the time ULE bodies and X-valves were released the Micromag was already 10 years old and no longer even being produced!

[Frizzle Fry]

It's also important to remember that the final iteration of the AGD Automag, Toms magnum opus, the X-mag was a unibody which PTP pioneered... and the Emag lowers it utilized were developed through collaboration between AGD and PTP.

[luke]

Toms magnum opus, the X-mag was a unibody which PTP pioneered.

I thought Simon designed the X-Mag and that they were machined by the owner of AGD Europe(?)

[Frizzle Fry]

I thought Simon designed the X-Mag and that they were machined by the owner of AGD Europe(?)

Right, but the concept of a unibody was developed in the early 90s. I'm not saying PTP designed the Xmag body, only that they came up with the unibody concept. Maybe calling it "Toms" was a bad choice, but the point is for years AGD made two piece models, and the final and arguably greatest product ended up being functionally similar to PTPs original design from years earlier.

PTP did work with AGD to design the form and function Emag frame, though, which was used on the Xmag.

[luke]

Yea, I was only indicating that I didn't think TK himself was responsible for the design of the X-Mag, the rest of what you said sounds spot on. :)

[GoatBoy]

More valuable to you, but the majority of mags now use threaded barrels. There are some "purest" out there, and i wouldn't begrudge them from keeping their twist locks, but the choices cor more modern barrels is limited. I remember in passing that AGD did have a slew of bodies made, but then the idea or implementation of the threaded body became pretty much standard. Look at why people went for PTP micromags? The aluminium bodies(not only could be anno'd for personal tastes) but had the better barrel choice(NOT necessarily the better barrel system).

Yeah we're having a failure in communication.

I agree with you, most people are on threaded barrels. Including me.

I don't covet the stainless bodies because I want to use TL barrels.

I covet the stainless bodies because they give me direct breech access. Most recently, I've used this to tinker with detents, and I knew like clockwork that the magic of PTP detents would come up in this discussion. I'm loaded for bear this time though.

Anyways, that'd be a shame to let all those bodies go to waste.




A bolt action gun? That is a novelty, pure and simple. Without firststrikes, it is even less of a novelty. Its an expensive paperweight. Maybe i am on the wrong coast for Palmers, but if they were great, where is the push for them to be at every field? Now i do love a blazer. I will get one, if i can find the right one, but i do not need it...

Now i do fully support the companies i like. AGD, ICD, ID. I believe in their products, use their products. I try to get people to also support them. I won't twist their arms if they don't use, yet will always be their suggesting them. If i can convert 1 person to what i use, then i am a happy person.


That part was all sarcasm from me. I don't hold Palmer's or CCM in much regard either. Figured it would be faster to demonstrate the ridiculous situation by highlighting their actual products. Both of the products I mentioned are pushing the limits of manufacturer contempt for its own customer base, and their customers eat it up and come back for more. Some people are too far gone to recognize it for what it is.

The part that gets me is the "support of manufacturers" bit.

Maybe I'm the most disloyal customer ever (probably), but I feel no loyalty to any manufacturer, and don't feel I need or should "support" them. If they make good products, then they don't need my "support". If they make retarded products... I'm not going to support them either.

I love the basic Automag system, but I don't support AGD.

There's an innocent side to this, but there's also kind of a malicious side to this, and it's kind of what we see here and elsewhere. "Support" in the case of bad products amounts to willfully overlooking problems, and there is a LOT of that going around.

The notion that the 2K9 reverse tanked PTP's previous products is kind of silly.

The products had flaws all this time, and people were just all too willing to overlook them because they apparently took some oath of fealty or something.

Some of you guys selling yourselves to the manufacturers are letting yourselves go for a little too cheap (and I'm not talking about you, Nobody). Or maybe not. Maybe that really is the limit of your value.

[Frizzle Fry]

The PTP detent was superior to the wire detents offered on mags at the time, and the "no detent" (or wire if you paid a premium) on cockers. It was also an upgrade compared to the "magic fingers" on the VM68 and M98... Should they have updated to thread-in ball detents for the MM2000? Perhaps, but I'd imagine they had a lot of their detents on the shelf to use, and it was one of their signature products. All of their markers other than the 2K9 predate common use of modern rubber nub detents, and at the time the 2K9 was released, the screw-in detents they used were a dated technology.

As for "issues" with previous products, I don't recall having any more than I did with other similar products, and I've owned 50+ Micromags and 20+ PTP cockers... I'll admit, I'm a fan, but if there was truly a widespread tolerance issue I'm sure I would have encountered it at least once. The only issues I found were some need for sanding/honing to use L10 bolts in the mag bodies (which came out before the L10 existed, can you fault them?) and the tendency for Micrococker backblocks/sleds to wear out around the threaded section and the cocking slot.

[MAGgot]

The products had flaws all this time, and people were just all too willing to overlook them because they apparently took some oath of fealty or something.

Please grace us with your wisdom. What flaws were these?

I don't claim to be a mind reader, but I'm willing to bet you're going to talk about either A)BigEvil's claims of issues on some PTP MicroEmags or B)people claiming issues using lvlX bolts on a select few Micromags.

A) I'm sure he's right. Like the MM2k9 these shouldn't reflect on previous generations of Micromags.
B) The lvlX bolt came out after Micromags were no longer produced. Another way to look at this: Why were lvlX bolts not made to the exact same spec as previous generations?

[luke]

Another way to look at this: Why were lvlX bolts not made to the exact same spec as previous generations?

:rofl:
You're making a pretty big assumption here.

[going_home]

I'm looking at integrity.

PTP ended with damaged or no integrity, ask anyone involved with the 2K9 Micromag or the Cocker debacle.

To compare them with AGD/Tom Kaye ..... well, he did not go out by walking away from flawed products.

So this absolutely does reflect on them as a company, to say it doesn't is ludicrous .

Fanboys can say what they want, they are absolutely a minority on this one.

The two people that have had to fix (or try and fix) their attempt at an Emag have already spoken in this thread .... not to mention, how many 2K9 bodies has Luke fixed ?

They are probably nice people, and made some nicely anodized stuff, but end the end left a lot of people that trusted them holding the bag.

These forums have had more than their share of disastrous pre-buys, this wasn't expected from PTP, but now they are lumped in with the rest of the failures.


:nono:

[jame4091]

Seems like there is some micromag knowledge here. I have a couple of 09 micromag bodies I was going to get fixed by luke this spring but that option has sailed.
Anybody else know where to have these bodies fixed?
Or give me an idea how? and I will have a local guy do the milling.

[Frizzle Fry]

I'm looking at integrity...

...They are probably nice people, and made some nicely anodized stuff, but end the end left a lot of people that trusted them holding the bag.

...but now they are lumped in with the rest of the failures.

I don't think anyone is defending the MM2K9 or the last 'cocker project. I bought two of the mags, and had issues with one. I stayed away from the autocockers. I don't stand behind those, and PTP didn't either... which is messed up. I agree.



Why is it that some people are all gaga over any markers by Pro Team Products ?

I just dont get it, the Micromags, the Cockers, why ?

When you get past the anodizing (if the have other than black) they arent much IMHO.

Am I biased because of the 2009 Micromag debacle , or the one that happened over on custom cockers ?

:confused:

To answer your question, read my previous posts... To those of us who were playing when PTP was in their heyday, and used their products during the 12 years that the company was focused on paintball and released 15+ markers, they were and are a big deal. It wasn't just flashy anodizing; they made revolutionary high quality products with new features, by new methods, and offered something (many somethings) that others just weren't at the time. They stood behind their products, and made every generation a little better than the last. They worked with AGD to develop some of the products that defined the platform. In their time, they changed the industry with their work. You can say they "aren't much" but compared to other markers of the time, or the ones they were based on, they were a pretty big deal.

I'm not defending them now, just pointing out that there was PTP from 1990 to 2002 which released piles of markers and parts which were GREAT, then there were two limited run products made 8 years after what was effectively their departure from the paintball world which they screwed up royally both in quality and customer service... now they're not in the paintball industry, really, except to sell off old stock. Don't want to do business with them now? Fine, they're not making new stuff anyway... if they didn't learn their lesson with the MM2K9 they certainly did with the cocker.

So why do people like PTP? They made a ton of great stuff. So people are "gaga" over the 15+ markers that were amazing, and still are... and not so much about the two that came much later and were terrible.

[JKR]

Why is it that some people are all gaga over any markers by Pro Team Products ?

I just dont get it, the Micromags, the Cockers, why ?

When you get past the anodizing (if the have other than black) they arent much IMHO.

Am I biased because of the 2009 Micromag debacle , or the one that happened over on custom cockers ?

:confused:

This thread has devolved almost to the point of the debate of why people choose to shoot Automags vs other, more modern markers.

Lets see if I can answer the questions from the original post in the way a true Maggot should.

Answer: To each his own. There could be many reasons why but all are a personal choice.

Answer: See above.

Response to statement: See above.

Answer: Yes. Regardless of what happened most recently with the company, you can't take away their history of success.

[Nobody]

Yeah we're having a failure in communication.

I agree with you, most people are on threaded barrels. Including me.

I don't covet the stainless bodies because I want to use TL barrels.

I covet the stainless bodies because they give me direct breech access. Most recently, I've used this to tinker with detents, and I knew like clockwork that the magic of PTP detents would come up in this discussion. I'm loaded for bear this time though.

Anyways, that'd be a shame to let all those bodies go to waste.

How about this. I know of a company that bought out another company that for no other reason, literally trashed $100,000 or so of usable, wanted and basically still usable parts, only cause they choose to do a tax write-off instead of selling it. True story...

Now for you or people that either see value in the old or modify existing parts for their own use. That is great, and its what custom truly means. Back in the late 90s early 2000s. People left and right where doing it to suit them, and is great. Hell, i helped build a double mag and would do so again in a heartbeat.

I have not used their detents and really have no opinion on them other than what i see. Which is 1) if it was good, why didn't anyone copy it? 2) they are huge, probably expensive to make compared to the cocker detent, or even the rebuildable detents 3) the simplier detent generally wins the day & 4) aesthetically, they are rather uncomplementary to the look or the lines of the gun.


That part was all sarcasm from me. I don't hold Palmer's or CCM in much regard either. Figured it would be faster to demonstrate the ridiculous situation by highlighting their actual products. Both of the products I mentioned are pushing the limits of manufacturer contempt for its own customer base, and their customers eat it up and come back for more. Some people are too far gone to recognize it for what it is.

The part that gets me is the "support of manufacturers" bit.

Maybe I'm the most disloyal customer ever (probably), but I feel no loyalty to any manufacturer, and don't feel I need or should "support" them. If they make good products, then they don't need my "support". If they make retarded products... I'm not going to support them either.

I love the basic Automag system, but I don't support AGD.

There's an innocent side to this, but there's also kind of a malicious side to this, and it's kind of what we see here and elsewhere. "Support" in the case of bad products amounts to willfully overlooking problems, and there is a LOT of that going around.

The notion that the 2K9 reverse tanked PTP's previous products is kind of silly.

The products had flaws all this time, and people were just all too willing to overlook them because they apparently took some oath of fealty or something.

Some of you guys selling yourselves to the manufacturers are letting yourselves go for a little too cheap (and I'm not talking about you, Nobody). Or maybe not. Maybe that really is the limit of your value.

Missed your emoticon there.... ;)

I am horrible and i don't do what i preach. I generally buy 95% of all my stuff through secondary markets, whether its through parts houses, used or through dealers. Rarely does it go direct back to the manufacturer.

Yet, by being on here, this forum, i hope to help those with problems on a gun i use and believe in, show them what they can do, and to help spread the word, as it where, by using the gun at the field; readily handing it out for people to take a spin with it.


Likewise, i do not try to swallow the koolaid or beat the drum, blindly. I won't just buy something, just because it came from a company. I still judge each product on its own and how it can help me.

As for Ptp, i never liked them, except for the 2K Micromag. The unibody is cool, but other people have gone with more of the Xmag body than the PTPs, unless i am mistaken. The bodies are heavier(though would love to see actual data on them) than powerfeed bodies, especially with classic valves. I do truly hate the safety on the Benchmark frames and the double triggers are looser than a hotdog down a school hallway. As for the annos. They are cool, but they can be made again, or even improved upon. They aren't that special. A PK selective period Eclipse splash anno is more impressive to me, but i vuess that is my opinion.

[Spider-TW]

I think the older PTP stuff deserves its following. PTP is still trying on occasion to get back to that success.

On "vintage" features, some are immaterial in the present market, and some you have to remember to use them as intended. On gas efficiency; with HPA and superlight tanks, who cares? If you really want CO2, go old school or shoot something else, it's not hard. Now that we have good feeders, good power feed plugs, good detents, and level 10 bolts, I hardly need to pull my barrel off in-game; how it is attached hardly matters.

Power feeds were to help when we were using WGP AMMO BOX's. After that, even revvys only held 100 rounds. If you stick with a small loader and shoot accordingly, power feeds are nice. Once you up-armor the elbow, clamps, and loader, they get ugly.

So, by the same token, I have to give the PTP fans their space on vintage stuff, especially the ano. Kind of like cars, some models and years are hard to beat, even with the latest and greatest.

[ScottyBeans]

I've never owned or even shot a micro, but I will say this:

The Iguana anno pattern of theirs is so so so good looking:wow:

http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv150/GrafOrlock/DSC06610.jpg

[bowcycle]

The Iguana anno pattern of theirs is so so so good looking:wow:

http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv150/GrafOrlock/DSC06610.jpg

I did not know this existed.
That is beautiful.

[cockerpunk]

they were a revolutionary, or at least procuded something unique company at one point. they were the first factory to make halfblock cockers, power feed cockers, and on the mag side the first to cocker thread, aluminum body and that sort of thing.

no idea why one would be a fan-boi of them anymore.

[MAGgot]

Fanboys


fan-boi

At what point does one cross the line from enthusiast, collector, hobbyist, tinkerer... to "fan-boi"?
I'm genuinely curious what the definition is. Is it possible to have a preferred marker and not be a "fanboy" of said marker? Does the term "fan-boi" say more about the person using it than it does about the people it's directed at?

[boo]

As for the annos. They are cool, but they can be made again, or even improved upon. They aren't that special. A PK selective period Eclipse splash anno is more impressive to me, but i vuess that is my opinion.

For any reasonable (sub $500) amount of money you wont be able to replicate the PK select ano. Note that a lot of the pics shown in this thread are not PK select, as when PK went down the ****ter ptp has tries finding other reliable anodizers and has had a hell of a time.

http://www.peterkellettart.com this is the Peter Kellart that PK stands for. He was awesome back then, but on some next level **** now. Basically a commissioned anodizing artist with some high end corporate clients.

PK basically intentionally priced themselves out of PB ano by charging anywhere from$600-$900 a job. By any review of anyone that still pushed them to do a marker it was far from the work that Peter originally did.

They did other equally cool patterns for other companies but the ones done for PTP were exclusive, part of the agreement is they could never use them for other companies.

Say what you want about the markers, but the anodizing is really special. Like I'll reiterate, id never own one that wasn't a PK select, at this point they really aren't anything special like the other private labels. The milling is bland and the pneumatics (on the cockers) are far from special. I'm sure they were something at the time, but they aren't rare or sought after.

[JKR]

no idea why one would be a fan-boi of them anymore.

Again...here we go. Ironically from the same guy with "haters gonna hate" below his screen name.

Why are you a fan boy of AGD or Cockers given they are "outdated" by most players standards?

Its like asking why someone likes to go camping...or play basketball...or likes a particular breed of dog...or likes cheeseburgers.

[going_home]

Customization = AGD.

Make it yours.


;)

[vintage]

I put them with the same fascination as those of us that are trying to collect complete splash kits. and I do both.

[GoatBoy]

Would someone kindly take a micromag body/rail unit, sans feedneck if possible, throw it on a scale and weigh it? (Photo would be nice so we can verify what you're taking a photo of). It should come in around 13-14oz?

[luke]

Micromag 2K is 12.3 oz. No photo, I would but, well I don't want to. lol :)

[GoatBoy]

Micromag 2K is 12.3 oz. No photo, I would but, well I don't want to. lol :)

That actually sounds correct for a 2K. Mostly the photo is to verify the feed neck, but the 2K has the feed neck built in?

[MAGgot]

http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/DSCF3445.jpg
http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/DSCF3446.jpg
http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/DSCF3447.jpg

[Nobody]

Hmmmm, that is interesting... A micromag body is actually lighter than a stock body. Volume does not equal mass.

[GoatBoy]

I'm going to smear my responses out over a series of posts instead of making one big one.

So... PTP went *backwards* in weight savings with the MM2K and beyond.

Micromags were "ULE before ULE". But was that really "revolutionary"? (Should we rebadge the MM2K's as "UHE"?)

Let's pretend to be technical people for a few minutes.

Classic SS body is about 7-8oz, give or take. The maximum you can do is cut that about in half by switching to aluminum because of the difference in density. So you maybe save 4oz at most in the body; reality is those bodies have extra material in them in various places so it's not an even trade.

(By the way I penned this part before seeing Maggot's pics. Thank you for the pics. Turns out, yeah, you save a little less than 4oz between top pic and bottom pic.)

However, they fused the rail to the body as well. When you fuse the rail to the body, you lose the ability to shed weight in the rail (as far as I can tell). Stock mag rail is 4.5oz, already in aluminum.

This is a problem for the "weight savings" argument, because we already know you can make a 1oz rail, in either aluminum or plastic.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5lGr9U0s7wk/VsLBFoxorxI/AAAAAAAAImQ/-YvZ_SiQo0g/s1152-Ic42/20160216_002519.jpg

That's the plastic version. Full Trracer top rail adds 1.5oz can can be trimmed to 0.5oz, which puts that setup at parity with the middle pic.

Essentially, all the trouble and effort put into making a lightened mag body? That coudn't produce a win against a heavy stainless body and a lightened rail. That's just bad design.

Considering cocker threads and fixed detents are only 10g of plastic away, the only thing you gained was the ability to anodize.

The fact that history bent this way instead of the other way was a matter of random chance. So some of us have a less rosy view of "historical significance". I think this stuff took us backwards for a few decades.

[JKR]

Yeah, its easy to reflect on history and play around with numbers to arrive at the conclusion you want. However, I don't recall seeing "back in the day" anyone milling rails or providing anything but the stock rail to the public. The offerings of rail alternatives and milled rails is something of a new offering, say within the last ten years...give or take a couple of years.

When PTP was doing its thing, no one was offering milled rails so indeed, they offered a lighter alternative. Not to mention a much cooler one...if you want subjective analysis on the matter!

[Frizzle Fry]

If the unibody design "took us back" then why was the Xmag, one of the final innovations and probably the greatest AGD product - easily the most desirable now - a unibody?

In a world where lighter = better (which is not my opinion) consider not just that the marker itself was lighter, but how much weight is shed by going from a twistlock barrel with a huge haft to an autococker threaded barrel. I would point out that at the time PTP landed on 'cocker threading, "high-end" markers were all trying to establish their thread pattern as the superior one and would go on to do so until the late 1990s. PTP accurately predicted Autococker threading as being the best choice years before it became the standard, or at least took a gamble on it and won, which is surprising considering that it's such an illogical thread pattern (even Bud Orr will admit that; it was just a tap that he had on hand, or something).

As for the other merits, it definitely makes the marker much easier to assembly and disassemble. The later generations with the "wing" over the valve to me made it easier to install and uninstall, and the site rail was much less complicated than those on the RT and RT Pros - definitely better than the slipon/screwdown ones for the classic bodies, and you'll note that the Xmag had the same feature. The detents offered throughout the 90s were wire which had the potential to be a nightmare (rusting, bending, slicing paint, etc) and the unibody allowed for a better (at the time) system to be used - plastic nubbins didn't come from AGD until much later.

It's VERY easy to look back at things that happened 25+ years ago and say that they're unimportant, or not revolutionary, but you have to have some perspective and apparently that's only gained by having been there at the time, or putting some serious thought into what changed and when. In a world where 3D printers exist, Chinese manufacturing is cheap and readily available (since the trade agreement), the internet provides a marketplace for the easy purchase of parts, upgrades and services (including anodizing and milling) as well as free tech and service references on forums and youtube videos OF COURSE these older don't stack up to today's standards. However, in a world where markers were purchased at fields or out of catalogs, upgrades the same, and "tech references" were in the form of photocopy manuals and mail-order VHS tapes, or the advice of another player given in person, a fully upgraded marker with brand new features which made maintenance and play easier/better was a big deal. It's a matter of perspective, and looking at how things developed from the BEGINNING forward, not the END back.

For comparison - look at an early 60's Cadillac with an automatic transmission... Loud, clunky, inefficient compared to today's cars, with seatbelts as an "option" and no airbags. However, they had one of the most revolutionary, bulletproof and low maintenance automatic transmissions ever made, setting the standard going forward - and the cars looked cool, too. Do we tell owners and enthusiasts of classic Caddies that because the Northstar motor was a piece of crap 30 years later that their 1964 is junk? Or complain about how a modern CVT is so much more efficient, or a standard might serve you better in a race?

[Frizzle Fry]

Automag:

Autococker Barrel Threads
Aluminum Bodies
Removable Feednecks
45 Gripframes
Double Trigger Grip Frames
Unibody Design
Integrated Site Rail
Upgraded Detent System
Threaded Sear Pin
Emag Frame (co-developed with AGD)


Autococker

Factory Detent
Halfblock Body Design
45 Gripframes
Integrated Beavertail Gripframes
Factory Body Drilling (hammer lug)
Factory Adjustable Trigger
Removable Feedneck
Powerfeed


Food for thought.

[MAGgot]

Yeah, its easy to reflect on history and play around with numbers to arrive at the conclusion you want. However, I don't recall seeing "back in the day" anyone milling rails or providing anything but the stock rail to the public. The offerings of rail alternatives and milled rails is something of a new offering, say within the last ten years...give or take a couple of years.

When PTP was doing its thing, no one was offering milled rails so indeed, they offered a lighter alternative. Not to mention a much cooler one...if you want subjective analysis on the matter!

Exactly.

I do want to correct one thing though, before Eclipse came out with the final generation of splash kit that had milled rails, I can only think of one other company who produced a nicely milled Mag rail... PTP/Benchmark ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/audioshack/9662CED9_zps13fd4ba4.jpg

[Walker]

About 2 years ago I started on a mission to own every gun and product that PTP ever made. I came pretty close...

Me too... I have seven MicroMags, one of each generation and an extra Gen 2. My Micromag 2000 is a Micro eMag. I also have a Sleeper Cocker, PTSC2, Armson Rifle, Armson Semi, VMX, and a BeamHits LMTS. I am missing the microCocker, but one will come up eventually.

Needless to say, I'm a fan of PTP products....:)

I can understand why some are not fans, but each to their own....


Walker

[Nobody]

If the unibody design "took us back" then why was the Xmag, one of the final innovations and probably the greatest AGD product - easily the most desirable now - a unibody?

I surmise that the unibody was not necessarily choosen(though the next time i see Simon, i can ask) because of simplicity, but for the fact that with the inclusion the eyeboard and the reflective eye, this could not be done very well at the time.


In a world where lighter = better (which is not my opinion) consider not just that the marker itself was lighter, but how much weight is shed by going from a twistlock barrel with a huge haft to an autococker threaded barrel. I would point out that at the time PTP landed on 'cocker threading, "high-end" markers were all trying to establish their thread pattern as the superior one and would go on to do so until the late 1990s. PTP accurately predicted Autococker threading as being the best choice years before it became the standard, or at least took a gamble on it and won, which is surprising considering that it's such an illogical thread pattern (even Bud Orr will admit that; it was just a tap that he had on hand, or something).

The barrel threads was NOT an accurate prediction, it was necessary to be cheap. Here is why. Ptp is a small shop, small shops can't always afford all the tap and dies to make the parts. If PTP were making their own bodies and not using slugs from WGP, then they would need to thread the barrels for them. It is easier for a secondary shop to choose one threading for their line versus a new or even a different thread from a specific gun(putting Shocker threads on a cocker). So if you were to go after the cocker crowd, who already has cocker barrels. It makes sense to use them.

This choice was made by nearly everyone who didn't make barrels, if they made guns. Looking at AKA, they targeted the spyder crowd with spyder specific parts and bodies. It makes no sense to give a spyder body with ICD threads.

It has only become defacto to cocker threads being standard.


As for the other merits, it definitely makes the marker much easier to assembly and disassemble. The later generations with the "wing" over the valve to me made it easier to install and uninstall, and the site rail was much less complicated than those on the RT and RT Pros - definitely better than the slipon/screwdown ones for the classic bodies, and you'll note that the Xmag had the same feature. The detents offered throughout the 90s were wire which had the potential to be a nightmare (rusting, bending, slicing paint, etc) and the unibody allowed for a better (at the time) system to be used - plastic nubbins didn't come from AGD until much later.

Just because they eliminated the possible problem, does not make it the best choice. The plastic nubbins are so much better than the wire. I know if i had a plastic nubbin, it would have saved 1 barrel of mine. But as we all know, the Mag was ahead of its time. Only when the L10 was introduced was the Mag able to reach its full potential without the snear or talk of the gun being a "paint blender".n do not confuse innovation with doing things differently.


It's VERY easy to look back at things that happened 25+ years ago and say that they're unimportant, or not revolutionary, but you have to have some perspective and apparently that's only gained by having been there at the time, or putting some serious thought into what changed and when. In a world where 3D printers exist, Chinese manufacturing is cheap and readily available (since the trade agreement), the internet provides a marketplace for the easy purchase of parts, upgrades and services (including anodizing and milling) as well as free tech and service references on forums and youtube videos OF COURSE these older don't stack up to today's standards. However, in a world where markers were purchased at fields or out of catalogs, upgrades the same, and "tech references" were in the form of photocopy manuals and mail-order VHS tapes, or the advice of another player given in person, a fully upgraded marker with brand new features which made maintenance and play easier/better was a big deal. It's a matter of perspective, and looking at how things developed from the BEGINNING forward, not the END back.

True. The early part houses did do a lot for the player, taking up the questions that are later being answered on the internet. Experience always dictates what works, what people liked and so forth.


I will say this. You are beating the PTP flag extremely well. I believe you have got some facts wrong and are trying to puff up the brand, as you think it deserves. I am one that doesn't care. Rare does one not like the way a gun looks and still use it.

[Frizzle Fry]

The barrel threads was NOT an accurate prediction, it was necessary to be cheap. Here is why. Ptp is a small shop, small shops can't always afford all the tap and dies to make the parts. If PTP were making their own bodies and not using slugs from WGP, then they would need to thread the barrels for them. It is easier for a secondary shop to choose one threading for their line versus a new or even a different thread from a specific gun(putting Shocker threads on a cocker). So if you were to go after the cocker crowd, who already has cocker barrels. It makes sense to use them.

This choice was made by nearly everyone who didn't make barrels, if they made guns. Looking at AKA, they targeted the spyder crowd with spyder specific parts and bodies. It makes no sense to give a spyder body with ICD threads.

But PTP did make barrels... and they made them for ICD, Spyder, F1s, VM68s, Prolites, Sovereigns and many others - it wasn't "cheap-out" to them. Bud Orr made the choice to thread his cockers based on either having the tap on hand, or being able to buy it locally, or something - I don't remember the exact story but that's why it's such a goofy thread. Many other companies were pushing their own style of barrel attachment, thread patterns and otherwise, and for whatever reason PTP elected to use the type of threading that would go on to become standard but not until many years later despite having the tooling to utilize any thread pattern on the market. A few tap and die sets aren't much of an expense when you have millions of dollars worth of machinery in your shop.

They weren't a "small shop" either - they were massive compared to the competition at the time, which is part of my point... if you look at a majority of custom guns from the era when PTP started you'll see a lot of simple, raw cuts, and a mishmash of aftermarket parts used on their markers. PTP made everything from the frames to the barrels to the feednecks to the velocity adjusters and bolts in house; the markers came fully upgraded and uniformly finished. Sure, BBT and Carter caught on and did the same but they still had a less uniform product line until years later, an a higher pricepoint.




Just because they eliminated the possible problem, does not make it the best choice. The plastic nubbins are so much better than the wire.

I'm not saying that it's the best choice now, but it was then... they saw a problem and created a new solution. That's the definition of innovation.

Mags had inferior detents (evidenced by the fact that they changed the design, albeit much later) so PTP made a better detent system. Autocockers had NO detent whatsoever, and custom shops were sticking the same wire detents on them that mags were using... PTPs design was superior to that, as well - even to early thread-in ball detents ("cocker detents") which were often mismeasured when done as a custom job, because PTPs could be adjusted forward and back by trimming the delrin finger. Has their detent been surpassed by several others since then? Sure. Doesn't change that it was innovative at the time.




I will say this. You are beating the PTP flag extremely well. I believe you have got some facts wrong and are trying to puff up the brand, as you think it deserves.

I'd love to know what I've got wrong... PTP may have screwed up their products and customer service in recent years, but to anyone who was there and playing in the early and mid 90s it's undeniable that they were innovators in the field, were well ahead of their time with many of their products, and that they played a big part in the growth of the Automag platform almost from the start. I'd love to hear what Tom has to say on the subject, at least with regards to automags... As for 'cockers, creating the first production halfblock has to mean something, as does adding a functional factory detent system.

[MAGgot]

As for 'cockers, creating the first production halfblock has to mean something, as does adding a functional factory detent system.
They also made virtually all of the aluminum slider frames on the market (Benchmark, Pro-Line, WGP, KAPP, etc)

[Frizzle Fry]

They also made virtually all of the aluminum slider frames on the market (Benchmark, Pro-Line, WGP, KAPP, etc)

True... And were one of the earliest, if not the first 45...

I think one of the biggest things that speaks to them as a company is their relationship with Tom and Bud in their heyday.

[Nobody]

But PTP did make barrels... and they made them for ICD, Spyder, F1s, VM68s, Prolites, Sovereigns and many others - it wasn't "cheap-out" to them. Bud Orr made the choice to thread his cockers based on either having the tap on hand, or being able to buy it locally, or something - I don't remember the exact story but that's why it's such a goofy thread. Many other companies were pushing their own style of barrel attachment, thread patterns and otherwise, and for whatever reason PTP elected to use the type of threading that would go on to become standard but not until many years later despite having the tooling to utilize any thread pattern on the market. A few tap and die sets aren't much of an expense when you have millions of dollars worth of machinery in your shop.

Cutting threads onto a tube, on a lathe(i am assuming a manual lathe), is WAY different than cutting them with a tap and or die. There is a distinction.

Also, do not confuse selling barrels versus making them. Just as Smart Parts was the distributer for E lipse and Belsales products/guns; Armson mames the barrels. PTP sells the barrels. That is it. If PTP did make barrels. Why do they not make more or a 2 piece, or whatever? Its because Armson makes it. PTP just sells it for them in the US.


They weren't a "small shop" either - they were massive compared to the competition at the time, which is part of my point... if you look at a majority of custom guns from the era when PTP started you'll see a lot of simple, raw cuts, and a mishmash of aftermarket parts used on their markers. PTP made everything from the frames to the barrels to the feednecks to the velocity adjusters and bolts in house; the markers came fully upgraded and uniformly finished. Sure, BBT and Carter caught on and did the same but they still had a less uniform product line until years later, an a higher pricepoint.

Correct me if i am wrong. There is Forrest, Tracy & a 3rd person... Size is not a detriment to ability or quality of work. The finished product should determine that. Do not confuse it. It is not a bad thing. Many manufacturers started out small. Inception Desings is a small company, much smaller than what most people think.



I'm not saying that it's the best choice now, but it was then... they saw a problem and created a new solution. That's the definition of innovation.

I judge innovation as coming up with an idea that is different, but then becomes common place as the idea is so good that you can not do without it.


Mags had inferior detents (evidenced by the fact that they changed the design, albeit much later) so PTP made a better detent system. Autocockers had NO detent whatsoever, and custom shops were sticking the same wire detents on them that mags were using... PTPs design was superior to that, as well - even to early thread-in ball detents ("cocker detents") which were often mismeasured when done as a custom job, because PTPs could be adjusted forward and back by trimming the delrin finger. Has their detent been surpassed by several others since then? Sure. Doesn't change that it was innovative at the time.

Remember, since the start of paintball to maybe 96 or so, there were no detents on guns. Many guns did not have them. PTP just offered them as standard, as the rest of the industry was. Plus the early ones where done by people. Again, do not confuse people making a home mod versus a factory one. 2 different things.




I'd love to know what I've got wrong... PTP may have screwed up their products and customer service in recent years, but to anyone who was there and playing in the early and mid 90s it's undeniable that they were innovators in the field, were well ahead of their time with many of their products, and that they played a big part in the growth of the Automag platform almost from the start. I'd love to hear what Tom has to say on the subject, at least with regards to automags... As for 'cockers, creating the first production halfblock has to mean something, as does adding a functional factory detent system.

You are wrong on your assumptions. They had started a few things, but other people perfected them. The halfblock, aluminium mag bodies, 45 or double trigger frames. Yes, PTP was there first, but it doesn't mean they are the best. They do not make ARMSON barrels, they just sell them. They had problems with the 2k9 bodies, but barely made a mends to retify it near 7 years later, by all the moaning still done. Henry Ford didn't make the first car, or even the best car. He just made a car that he was able to get out to everyone. I do know you like them, love them and support them, but you have to look at that they are not on the pedestal that you have them on.

[going_home]

I'd love to hear what Tom has to say on the subject, at least with regards to automags...

From what I've seen of him on AO, I'd wager to say he's a man that would rather say nothing publicly if he had nothing good to say.

Tuna on the other hand tells it like it is.......

[luke]

From what I've seen of him on AO, I'd wager to say he's a man that would rather say nothing publicly if he had nothing good to say.

I remember a very specific comment TK made years ago on the subject. Right here on AO in fact, probably in the archives somewhere. It wasn't necessary derogatory but it was something that relates directly to parts of this discussion.

[blackdeath1k]

I started playing in 93-4. With a prolite. It had a detent from factory. Then my mag I bought the same year had the wire nubbin. The original spyders at the time had some sort of detent as well. So detents were present at the time. But I agree totally that ptp did a lot of stuff back then that nobody else did. They were a pioneer of innovation in the early 90s.

[Frizzle Fry]

Correct me if i am wrong. There is Forrest, Tracy & a 3rd person... Size is not a detriment to ability or quality of work. The finished product should determine that. Do not confuse it. It is not a bad thing. Many manufacturers started out small. Inception Desings is a small company, much smaller than what most people think.

Tracy, Forrest and Russell tackled the MM2K9 project, if that's what you mean. They have had different employees over the years and have grown and shrunk over the years, as well as relocating their production facilities and warehouse several times. I doubt anyone here thinks that Inception is more than a few people... We all know Simon, and many of us were here for the inception of Inception.





I judge innovation as coming up with an idea that is different, but then becomes common place as the idea is so good that you can not do without it.

That's an interesting perspective but it's simply not the definition of "innovation", nor the common understanding of it... Feel free to look it up.





Remember, since the start of paintball to maybe 96 or so, there were no detents on guns. Many guns did not have them. PTP just offered them as standard, as the rest of the industry was. Plus the early ones where done by people. Again, do not confuse people making a home mod versus a factory one. 2 different things.

I remember because I was playing and buying markers, and many markers at that... There were plenty of very popular markers with factory detents before '96, including Tippmanns in '89, Automags in '90, Illustrators in '91 and VM68s in '93. Autocockers were an oddball in that respect; the most popular semis had detents, they just tended to suck. Wires rusted, bent, cut paint, and got damaged. Foamy finger detents hardened over time and tore. Spring detents in Tippmanns were actually OK. PTPs detent was a better option.

I'm not confusing home mods with factory ones; I'm talking about the beginning of Autococker detents - Bud Orr didn't want to incorporate them, so they were offered only as a modification by proshops and custom shops, or an option on custom/private label markers. Most people were adding inferior wire detents, or drilling for threaded ball detents - I owned a BPS Express (my first 'cocker) with a misdrilled detent, and went on to buy a Skirmish 'cocker which had a similar problem, and a later a BBT which unsurprisingly had a poorly placed detent - this was not an uncommon issue. PTP offered a "factory" detent on their marker, which was essentially scratch built from a blank body rather than a marker purchased, customized and modified for resale (like most other offerings at the time) and the detent was superior to the other offerings of the time because it was generally perfect out of the box, but could be adjusted if it wasn't.





You are wrong on your assumptions. They had started a few things, but other people perfected them. The halfblock, aluminium mag bodies, 45 or double trigger frames. Yes, PTP was there first, but it doesn't mean they are the best.

Please point out where I said "best" - I simply said they developed those things first. That's innovation. They did a thing before anyone else did that thing, and many people decided to do the same thing as a result... for many years later, or after many years. Did others do it better? Sure, but somebody had to do it first... Somebody had to think of a new concept, or identify a need in the market and address it. That's what PTP did. Essentially the definition of innovation.

At some point they stopped innovating, at least in their own products. The designs stagnated, other than perhaps their work on the Emag frame, and shortly after they stepped away from their traditional marker platforms to sell products in the Milsim market and partner with VL for something different, while focusing on military contracts and other branches of the business.





They had problems with the 2k9 bodies, but barely made a mends to retify it near 7 years later, by all the moaning still done....

...I do know you like them, love them and support them, but you have to look at that they are not on the pedestal that you have them on.

Don't get it twisted, I don't support them anymore. I like Forrest and Tracy as people, but I got screwed on the MM2K9 just as hard as everyone else who bought it... I got two bodies and only one of them worked, and I never got the other stuff I paid for. What I did get was years late. I watched the 'cocker debacle go down on CustomCockers and it looks like others got screwed too, shame on them for not paying attention to the MM2K9 debacle and taking heed, or shame on PTP for using their past reputation to write a check they simply weren't capable of cashing? Probably a bit of the former and a lot of the latter.

What I love were their old products. What I'm saying here is that it seems like a bunch of people with a hair across their ass about a much more recent issue, who have no perspective on the past because THEY WEREN'T THERE, are trying to tear down every past success and innovation of a company who used to make top notch products based on a grudge and a genuine lack of information about the time period or the subject in general. Beyond which, they're effectively calling out anyone who supported a company in the past, or likes their old products, for what that company does now. Seems kind of silly to me. More than a little offensive, even, and I doubt I'm the only one who feels that way.



Lastly, before I shut up and ditch this forum once again...

If PTP is so bad, has such a horrible history of QC issues before the 2K9, then why did AGD partner with them to develop the Emag frame? Why did AGD partner with them to develop the FN303 and its predecessor prototypes? Why allow PTP to produce Automags, provide branded valves, etc? Both of those development partnerships happened after almost a decade of PTP making and selling Micromags... If Tom had such a big problem with their older products (almost all of which predate the partnerships, the MicroEmag being an exception), wouldn't he seek out someone else to work with? Or cut them off completely? He had a problem with the Colonial, and tried to put a stop to that...

Simply put I have owned MANY Micromags; bought many new, and many used... I tallied it up a few years ago with Saint Noir (who was playing at the time PTP started as well) and we came up with a number over 50. I never encountered a major QC problem with a Micromag before the 2K9, and fewer minor ones than with other high end markers of the era - I won't count sanding the breech so that the L10 will work properly. That's 50+ markers, and I know there are users here with one or dozens of them that are still going strong after 1-2 decades. They like them, they will keep using them, and after this thread they likely won't care what you think about it because they work and look good doing it.

[saintnoir]

hmmm..*looks around*......PTP....
92285
they did some amazing things early on....and really jumped the shark with there mm2k9 and cocker return...but damm there is some real bitterness here...and i got hit on the mm2k9 and cocker...uggh

[GoatBoy]

Sorry guys, super busy lately. I promise to keep it fun and informative.


BENCHMARK GRIP FRAMES

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-8yjMD2edGWg/SFS2LydjHCI/AAAAAAAAIPU/I1X-77uJWhM/s912-Ic42/IMGP1509.JPG

Do we need to discuss this?

I guess we do.

These grip frames suck. The frame is out of spec and the triggers are wobbly.

They're also heavy.

That is my picture up there. I picked it up around 2008, determined there was no better reason for me to own it in 2008 than there was in the 90’s and immediately sold it off. But not before I threw it on the scale because I am just wired like that.

Now, I think the body there is a little heavier than Maggot’s, so I’m conservatively saying it’s about 11oz. Probably closer to 12 but we’ll fudge that out.

The foregrip I think is about 6oz.

That leaves 7.8oz for the grip frame. Let’s round down to be nice. 7oz.

What does a plastic stock gripframe weigh?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4-4VXHP_Low/VsUwH2ZXXCI/AAAAAAAAIms/HVnVD7z9yYk/s1152-Ic42/20160217_203512.jpg

Oh dear. So that 3-ish oz weight reduction you barely managed to get with the “unibody”? Obliterated when you put the Benchmark frame on. I’m not even talking about the milled or plastic rail anymore. Stock rail. Stainless body. Stock grip frame.

Sure, you can put a plastic frame on the Micromag if you want the weight savings back.

But you won't.

Why?

Because you wouldn't want to split up that beautiful matching anno pair.

So the artful anno job is actually screwing you over. You paid all that money for fancy design, advanced milling, high tech aluminum, artful anodizing... and you can't even beat a stock stainless mag with full rail and CF grip frame in the weight department despite all the advertising and testimonials that the Micromag is lighter.

[JKR]

So...much...hate...


As for me...nothing changes my love for my PTP Micromag.

92286

[vintage]

So...much...hate...


As for me...nothing changes my love for my PTP Micromag.

92286

thats one thing i've picked up on since i joined this forum. people hold onto hate here if they have ever been burn't by something, they never seem to let it go. i've been burn't(not here) and yea it hoovers but eventually i move on but always keep it in the back of my mind as a reminder of what can happen.

[going_home]

Just fun and informative .

Not hate, just no love , zero .


;)

[MAGgot]

Sorry guys, super busy lately. I promise to keep it fun and informative.


BENCHMARK GRIP FRAMES

Do we need to discuss this?

I guess we do.

These grip frames suck. The frame is out of spec and the triggers are wobbly.

They're also heavy.

That is my picture up there. I picked it up around 2008, determined there was no better reason for me to own it in 2008 than there was in the 90’s and immediately sold it off. But not before I threw it on the scale because I am just wired like that.

Now, I think the body there is a little heavier than Maggot’s, so I’m conservatively saying it’s about 11oz. Probably closer to 12 but we’ll fudge that out.

The foregrip I think is about 6oz.

That leaves 7.8oz for the grip frame. Let’s round down to be nice. 7oz.

What does a plastic stock gripframe weigh?

Oh dear. So that 3-ish oz weight reduction you barely managed to get with the “unibody”? Obliterated when you put the Benchmark frame on. I’m not even talking about the milled or plastic rail anymore. Stock rail. Stainless body. Stock grip frame.

Sure, you can put a plastic frame on the Micromag if you want the weight savings back.

But you won't.

Why?

Because you wouldn't want to split up that beautiful matching anno pair.

So the artful anno job is actually screwing you over. You paid all that money for fancy design, advanced milling, high tech aluminum, artful anodizing... and you can't even beat a stock stainless mag with full rail and CF grip frame in the weight department despite all the advertising and testimonials that the Micromag is lighter.

So an aluminum .45 frame weighs more than a thin plastic one... that's your point? I guess you think the Emag frame, Intelliframe, all other aftermarket frames, etc are all trash too?

If the only thing that matters to you is the weight of a marker, just go play with a space *****! Why are you playing with a mid-90's mech?

[Walker]

Hmmmm... Interesting weight comparison.

It seems to me a better comparison would be a Micromag with it's Benchmark frame, and a Classic Mag with it's stainless body/aluminum rail and an aluminum .45 frame that was available when the Micromags came out (were there frames other than the Proline or Benchmark?). Comparing Apples to Apples, would the MicroMag be lighter? I'd also be curious as to the weight of a Classic with the plastic frame compared to above other setups.

Hmmm..... Another comparison might be a microEmag to a stock AGD eMag?

I use Benchmark frames on my Micromags, because they match the gun. I don't have any issues with them. If they are out of spec, what are they being compared to that was available at the same time? As to their wobbly triggers, what was available at the time to compare them to?


Walker

[kutter]

I find it rather amusing that some of you are having a discussion about shaving a couple of OUNCES from your gear. It reminds me so much of that fat guy in the bicycle shop (not saying anyone is fat by the way) that is weighing tires for his $5000 road bike to get the lightest one but has spent to much money on the latest 3000 calorie laden drink from Starbucks.

If you want a light gun, buy an Axe. You will have a soulless piece of equipment, but it will be light, efficient, and from what I can see, always work. As someone pointed out, comparing 90's tech to modern tech is just silly. If I can tote my VM-68 around for a 24hr scenario, then my Micro and E-mag seem light as a feather.

Oh yeah, if you are still hung up on weight, carry one less pod of paintballs, that will more than make up for the difference.

As for liking PTP, they did some really neat things for a long time, then the screwed it all up, that pretty much sums it up. I would love a 2K9 but I am not willing to take the risk to get one. Will build something else instead, probably a pneumag or ULT.

[vintage]

you touched a nerve on this one Allen.

[going_home]

you touched a nerve on this one Allen.


Just fun and informative .
Not hate, just no love , zero .
;)

I dont see any hate from the detractors.

Where I see it coming from is some of the defenders.

After all this I personally dont see a reason to collect PTP stuff.

I guess after all though people do collect salt and pepper shakers, so......

To modify Gordons saying just a bit, collectors gonna collect.........

[Spider-TW]

I dont see any hate from the detractors.

Where I see it coming from is some of the defenders.

After all this I personally dont see a reason to collect PTP stuff.

I guess after all though people do collect salt and pepper shakers, so......

To modify Gordons saying just a bit, collectors gonna collect.........



Right? "Reason to collect"? No such thing.

[GoatBoy]

If you wonder why I kept harping on the weight issue, it’s simply because of stuff like this:


The Micromag offered a solution for all of the Automag's downsides: lighter aluminum body w/ integrated rail, cocker threads, improved detents.
Add to that the finest factory ano options ever offered on any gun.


I own one black Micromag and have zero issues with it. Why did I want it to begin with? Compact, lightweight body with interchangeable barrels with a more old school cool factor that some run of the mill ULE body.

You guys say this stuff and it never really gets challenged. And it really should. All the points that I cover don’t come from me -- they come from you. I am more or less just marching down your list(s).

So, onto P-P-P-Powerfeeds.

Didn't AGD invent the powerfeed and already put it on its mags? Like 1991?

Then why is this a notable PTP achievement? Because you could anodize your feedneck?

I will say that I am a huge fan of the removable feedneck (because I hate feednecks); enough to seriously consider using the previously pictured Micromag as my development platform, but I just couldn't get the stench of PTP out of my nostrils. It smells like someone dipped a sausage-on-a-stick in cornmeal based batter and deep fried it until it was a delicious golden disgusting brown.

But nobody ever did anything with the removable feedneck.

So I fail to see how any of this ranks above “barely notable”.


Put powerfeeds on Autocockers, VM68s and M98s.

Oh, sorry. I got confused. You see the PTP side is repeatedly throwing Autococker evidence into an Automag discussion. More on that later. Suffice to say, I guess it’s fair to drag other markers in as supporting material...

[GoatBoy]

I should probably quote at least one instance of the thing I'm referencing lest you think I'm being unfair.


the first threaded sear pin

Why is a threaded sear axle some sort of technological achievement?

Because it fixes a problem caused by making the mag unibody?

There are a number of other ways to solve this problem.

For example, a press fit axle. Just like on the trigger frames. Works for the trigger frames, works for the sear.

I guess a press fit pin might not work so well if you can't keep tolerances.

Wait what would mess with tolerances? Perhaps... the anno process?

Anyways, there are a couple of other options besides press-fit pins, but it seems the options chosen by PTP happen to be the most complicated (threading/grip wings/other weirdness).

[Frizzle Fry]

I should probably quote at least one instance of the thing I'm referencing lest you think I'm being unfair.



Why is a threaded sear axle some sort of technological achievement?

Because it fixes a problem caused by making the mag unibody?

There are a number of other ways to solve this problem.

For example, a press fit axle. Just like on the trigger frames. Works for the trigger frames, works for the sear.

I guess a press fit pin might not work so well if you can't keep tolerances.

Wait what would mess with tolerances? Perhaps... the anno process?

Anyways, there are a couple of other options besides press-fit pins, but it seems the options chosen by PTP happen to be the most complicated (threading/grip wings/other weirdness).

I know I said I wouldn't post again, but...

A press fit axle? Like a rolled pin, or a flanged pin that you'd have to use a hammer and a pin punch to install or remove? Sounds inconvenient.

The purpose of a threaded pin is simple; to make fieldstripping the market more simple. A threaded sear axle is easier on the user than one that needs to be dropped into place and balanced to assemble, and can fall out when disassembling the marker (like the one in Classic and Minimags, and early Micromags; I know I've lost a few in my time). I'd assume that's why AGD adopted the threaded sear axle as the standard for the RT, RT Pro, Emag and Xmag - I.E. all of their production markers developed after the Micromag. I'd call that an advancement- the proof is in the pudding.

As for winged frames, there are reason for their development beyond sear pin retention in early Micromags. You'll notice that DYE and 32* frames, neither of which were manufactured by PTP/Benchmark, have wings as well - was this to fill the niche market of Micromag users? No, it's because 45 frames are wider than cast aluminum or composite AGD euroframes. If you look at one of your classic rails, you'll see that there are two angled channels on either side of the bottom where these wings slide in - if you use a flattop 45 frame with these rails, the frame will overhang on either side and leave a very apparent gap. In fact, the first PTP Micromags with threaded sear pins also used winged frames. It wasn't until the RT was released in '96 that flat top 45 frames were developed, and Micromags didn't use them until the 2K model.

These wings and channels are more than cosmetic - they also ensure that the rear frame hole doesn't twist out of alignment when you remove the valve without completely disassembling the marker. This is more important with Micromags and Classics using ULE bodies, which don't have a barrel twistlock assembly to help keep the frame aligned, but it can cause an issue with any marker using a classic rail or classic rail specs. AGDs solution to this problem was a "rail bushing", which like an unfixed sear axle, can simply fall out when stripping the marker. You'll note that AGD released their first wider frame, the Zgrip, in two configurations; with and without wings - the former for Classics and the latter for RTs. When the Intelliframe and Yframe were released they were only made as flat tops, because they were intended for use with RT spec rails which don't accept winged frames.

I think you're grasping at straws, but I don't blame you... Again, and I can't stress this enough, if you weren't there playing at the time, your views on many or most of these things are bound to be colored by a lack of history and the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. I don't mean that as a dig, just a statement on why someone who started playing well after these developments had become commonplace, or outlived their usefulness or popularity.

[luke]

Why is a threaded sear axle some sort of technological achievement?

I believe it's an advancement because it maintains better geometry between the bolt, sear and on/off. I've never really investigated the performance differences but there seems but be much less play with the 1/8" threaded pin design. Some of that has to do with the bushing surface being wider than the am sear without the bushing. Having said that though, I believe that the bushing was an AGD innovation.

[Frizzle Fry]

I had a Micromag with a threaded sear axle in 96, if it was AGDs doing it was done concurrently.

[kutter]

If you wonder why I kept harping on the weight issue, it’s simply because of stuff like this:





You guys say this stuff and it never really gets challenged. And it really should. All the points that I cover don’t come from me -- they come from you. I am more or less just marching down your list(s).

So, onto P-P-P-Powerfeeds.

Didn't AGD invent the powerfeed and already put it on its mags? Like 1991?

Then why is this a notable PTP achievement? Because you could anodize your feedneck?

I will say that I am a huge fan of the removable feedneck (because I hate feednecks); enough to seriously consider using the previously pictured Micromag as my development platform, but I just couldn't get the stench of PTP out of my nostrils. It smells like someone dipped a sausage-on-a-stick in cornmeal based batter and deep fried it until it was a delicious golden disgusting brown.

But nobody ever did anything with the removable feedneck.

So I fail to see how any of this ranks above “barely notable”.



Oh, sorry. I got confused. You see the PTP side is repeatedly throwing Autococker evidence into an Automag discussion. More on that later. Suffice to say, I guess it’s fair to drag other markers in as supporting material...

I never mentioned another marker, and as for weight, when the Micro was released it was lighter than SS mags, now, not so much, but that is progress. By today's standards the Micro is not really anything special except as a classic marker. I get that, still like them, so still use it. As for the powerfeeds, while I would prefer if someone would mill an aluminum vert feed to replace my powerfeed adapter, in the mean time I bought one of the 3D printed ones, have not used it yet but it seems like it will work just fine.

[luke]

I had a Micromag with a threaded sear axle in 96, if it was AGDs doing it was done concurrently.

PTP didn't use the axle bushing though.

[Frizzle Fry]

PTP didn't use the axle bushing though.

Correct, they used a threaded pin which was as wide as the classic sear hole, and continued to use classic-spec sears, even on the MicroEmag. My point was more that they were offering threaded Micromags on the Gen3 body in 96 which was when the RT (the first AGD product with a threaded sear) was released, and that they may have been offering it earlier even - tough to say. I bought an RT around launch, and already owned a Micromag with a threaded sear pin.

[GoatBoy]

I'd assume that's why AGD adopted the threaded sear axle as the standard for the RT, RT Pro, Emag and Xmag - I.E. all of their production markers developed after the Micromag. I'd call that an advancement- the proof is in the pudding.

Be careful with this. If adoption makes right, then lack of adoption might mean wrong. You’re better off not using reasoning like this, lest it be used against you.

I think the basic problem here is that you think history was right. That the things that happened were right, and they necessarily happened because they were right. And anybody who didn't think they were right must not have seen the history or something. I may dig into this a bit later.


Moving on...

1. I have never found it necessary to separate the sear from the rail in-field (and almost never off field either). The last time I pulled a sear from one of my primaries was 4 years ago, and that was when that one was born. I do want it to stay in place, and threading’s not necessary for that.

2. Some generations of MM rely on the winged grip to retain the sear pin which seems like a bad idea in its own right. Which direction the smell blew in from is not really that interesting, unless you’re just trying to figure out which direction to run away from.

3. I'm pretty sure it's inconvenient to be screwed out of a custom sear pin from PTP. Pretty sure. Especially when it shouldn’t have been necessary.

I went through the same thing making my rail. When I started out, I decided to avoid the classic sear pin and the way that's done for the more sane overall RTP style.

But I struggled with how to cleanly produce the threads for the RTP pin when I realized, "Why the Hell am I making this harder than it needs to be? Press fit a pin and move on."

That was about 4 years ago. And again, that's not the only possible solution; I had alternates planned. But it works just fine and I'm not beholden to some absentee company for unnecessarily custom pins.




I believe it's an advancement because it maintains better geometry between the bolt, sear and on/off. I've never really investigated the performance differences but there seems but be much less play with the 1/8" threaded pin design. Some of that has to do with the bushing surface being wider than the am sear without the bushing. Having said that though, I believe that the bushing was an AGD innovation.

Compared to the classic setup, probably. I kind of wondered that myself, which was another reason I went away from the classic sear/axle.

Compared to a pin that is press-fit captive and riding against an extended bushing? Not sure. I do think the bushing has merit; more so than the threaded pin.

Regardless, if PTP used a solution that was technically better, but their results were still worse in some cases... That does not paint a rosy picture.

“We made all these technically awesome changes to the gun!”

“Then why does it still not chrono over 260?”

“Uhm… look at the pretty anodizing? SMOKEBOMB!”

[going_home]

I'm just going to put this right here.....





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8vHhgh6oM0

[MAGgot]

You know you've made a good product when over 20 years later an attack on its merits has devolved into a debate over the pin you used to retain the sear.

[Frizzle Fry]

Be careful with this. If adoption makes right, then lack of adoption might mean wrong. You’re better off not using reasoning like this, lest it be used against you.

No, that's flawed logic. There are many reasons why a company can fail to adopt something new; they may lack the financial or manufacturing means, lack the legal right to use the technology, choose not to include a feature that will cost more to produce and slim an already narrow margin, or force a price increase that takes a product outside of its target market. Some manufacturers try to pursue different solutions to the same problem new features address, while others don't think it's a problem at all (even if their customers do) - case in point, Budd Orr was the last person to consider putting detent on his marker design; he didn't feel they were necessary, but customers did, and the customers won out in the long run. That something newer and better follows the creation of an innovative product does not mean the first product wasn't innovative - that's the nature of innovation; it's technological and intellectual leapfrog.



I think the basic problem here is that you think history was right. That the things that happened were right, and they necessarily happened because they were right. And anybody who didn't think they were right must not have seen the history or something. I may dig into this a bit later.

No, I'm not saying history was right, just that it happened... That is, people encountered needs, and these previously unaddressed needs were addressed by PTP products and designs. You don't even seem to be aware of the problems, or the reasoning behind the development of the solutions, which is why I bring up context and historical perspective.

Did these products and solutions meet needs and solve problems that customer were experiencing and others weren't successfully meeting/solving? Yes. Were they the best answers compared to to some of those that we have 20+ years later? Probably not, but we also have the benefit of 20 years of trial and error to thank for that - that's called hindsight. So when you attack based on your feel that wings aren't needed on a frame, or that a threaded sear pin has no value, that may be due to your needs being different than the needs of many customers at the time - or a lack of understanding of the needs of customers at the time.




1. I have never found it necessary to separate the sear from the rail in-field (and almost never off field either). The last time I pulled a sear from one of my primaries was 4 years ago, and that was when that one was born. I do want it to stay in place, and threading’s not necessary for that.

Right, so your play style and field stripping needs and disassembly needs are different than other customers who encountered an issue in the past, at a time might I add, when a pressed pin would not have been possible with the rail design offered by AGD. What about a customer who switches between a mechanical frame and emag lowers? Or a mechanical frame and a pneumag frame? A press fit sear axle would hinder their ability to do so easily.

I (and most of my teammates) would strip our markers entirely to clean them after a tournament - some of us took gun hits which made cleaning the area between the rail and the body necessary, others had chops which ran through the body, but as a rule we'd strip down our markers and toss the bodies/rails/frames in the dishwasher. I know for a fact that other players did this at the time as well - I probably still have polaroids somewhere of 20+ mags in my old dishwasher. If it's necessary to remove the body on a classic marker, you run the risk of dropping the sear axle out, even if you're not intending to remove the sear.




2. Some generations of MM rely on the winged grip to retain the sear pin which seems like a bad idea in its own right. Which direction the smell blew in from is not really that interesting, unless you’re just trying to figure out which direction to run away from.

Right, so they addressed that on later models by making a threaded pin. They were working with the specs and design of the existing AGD automag rail at the time - for frame compatibility purposes? Or because it was easier to copy what was already there? They couldn't drop in a pin from the top because of the unibody design, so they did it from the side. Clearly they saw a need to improve and they did, by switching to a threaded sear axle in the third generation of their marker. The design of the product progressed and was refined over time. Can you beat them up for having an issue with an early model which was fixed by a later model?




3. I'm pretty sure it's inconvenient to be screwed out of a custom sear pin from PTP. Pretty sure. Especially when it shouldn’t have been necessary

Beat the dead horse one more time - nobody disputes that, but again it really has nothing to do with classic Micromags, with or without threaded sear pins.




I went through the same thing making my rail. When I started out, I decided to avoid the classic sear pin and the way that's done for the more sane overall RTP style.

But I struggled with how to cleanly produce the threads for the RTP pin when I realized, "Why the Hell am I making this harder than it needs to be? Press fit a pin and move on."

That was about 4 years ago. And again, that's not the only possible solution; I had alternates planned. But it works just fine and I'm not beholden to some absentee company for unnecessarily custom pins.

Compared to the classic setup, probably. I kind of wondered that myself, which was another reason I went away from the classic sear/axle.

Compared to a pin that is press-fit captive and riding against an extended bushing? Not sure. I do think the bushing has merit; more so than the threaded pin.

OK, so you leaned towards something that existed, ruling out an older design that didn't work as well, and ended up using a completely new design in the long run. Sounds familiar.

The bushing has merit to you now, but think about why you landed on it for your final product... You personally didn't have the need to remove your pin frequently, but the initial reason you sought alternatives was that didn't have the ability to produce the threads for the threaded sear pin. You were hindered by an inability to produce what you wanted initially, and found a different solution which you found met your needs and the needs of your customers. Will that change going forward based on the availability of new means, or the demands of customers? Will another person who does have the means to include an RTP sear axle or an alternative technology bring similar rail to market, would they find more or less success? Time will tell.

One of the things that sets current AGD users aside is that we play with a dead platform - we appreciate the merits of a design that has been effectively left behind by the industry. We are not the "typical customer" or we'd be playing with newer common designs or products to the exclusion of Automags, but we see merit in a design or product that meets our needs as customers but not the needs of the greater paintball market. Peoples enjoyment, use and collecting of PTPs older products are a microcosm of exactly what drives people to AGDs older products now.

You make springfeeds, rails, and magazines - those are innovative. They're unique designs which address a problem or need in the market utilizing new ideas or applying old ideas in new ways. With that said, they're a niche product, competing with a smaller number of competitors for a smaller group of customers than products offered by, say, Inception or Lukes. You're also designing these products for yourself, and sharing many of the designs - your goal isn't always to make a profit, to maintain or grow your market share. You have the benefit of working in less expensive materials, with previously unavailable technology which, while expensive for consumers is inexpensive relative compared to industrial machinery which is needed to use more expensive and in-demand materials. That doesn't detract from the quality of your products, or the benefits of your designs, in fact it benefits your model and creates a draw.




Regardless, if PTP used a solution that was technically better, but their results were still worse in some cases... That does not paint a rosy picture.

“We made all these technically awesome changes to the gun!”

“Then why does it still not chrono over 260?”

“Uhm… look at the pretty anodizing? SMOKEBOMB!”

You're talking about the MM2K9 again, which doesn't have pretty anodizing and has no bearing on the threaded sear pins they started offering 14 years earlier.

There weren't issues with the threaded sear pins on Gen3, Gen4, and Gen5. There weren't velocity issues, or detent placement issues, or any of the other issues which plagued the MM2K9.... This thread was created to address the things that make PTP markers attractive to collectors - most of whom focus on the 15+ old ones that work, not the two new ones that had design issues, production issues, marketing issues and customer service issues.

The MM2K9 wasn't even a PTP design; it was designed by an AO member due to general interest in a new marker being created - why? Because people LIKED older PTP markers and wanted a new one, or they were attracted by the new features it alleged to offer. It wasn't offered with a pretty ano pattern, your choices were black, dust black, gunmetal or raw so color options clearly weren't the draw. PTP screwed it up royally; their tolerances were all over the place and many of the markers didn't work, they iced the cake with delay after delay, bad customer service and the failure to deliver parts and other product. Nobody is disputing that, the question is how does that balance with the decade plus of good customer service and quality products that preceded their more recent screwups, and why DID people like their older products, why DO they like their older products now and find them worth collecting?

I've been out of paintball for 2 years; I sold my collection to take care of medical bills. All I've got left, really, is a nonfunctional MM2K9 body that I can't in good conscience pass on to another person because it does not work properly and I'm fairly sure it can't be made to... I doubt anybody here would invest in a new PTP product; I certainly wouldn't, and why the guys on Custom Cockers chose to is completely beyond me, as is what PTP was thinking when they pulled that crap on the heels of the MM2K9. However, if I was to start playing again, I wouldn't hesitate to buy an older PTP product as many other AO'ers do and have done. I ordered a product from a user on this site who I won't name, a custom body, and never received it - many customers did get theirs and they worked, but I was unable to contact the manufacturer (they didn't answer my emails, it was too late for PayPal) and I've not heard anything since. I wouldn't buy a marker from them either, but I don't feel that reflects on the quality of service or product they offered in the past, which is what attracted me to them - it only matters going forward.

[JKR]

One of the things that sets current AGD users aside is that we play with a dead platform - we appreciate the merits of a design that has been effectively left behind by the industry. We are not the "typical customer" or we'd be playing with newer common designs or products to the exclusion of Automags, but we see merit in a design or product that meets our needs as customers but not the needs of the greater paintball market. Peoples enjoyment, use and collecting of PTPs older products are a microcosm of exactly what drives people to AGDs older products now.



Well said!

[GoatBoy]

I'm taking my time with this thread, and rest assured all for the less than notable points you guys covered will be adressed, just not in one sitting.

You guys should read this Google+ post, including the comments:

https://plus.google.com/+AndreasSchou/posts/WbRHrsn45JT


You know you've made a good product when over 20 years later an attack on its merits has devolved into a debate over the pin you used to retain the sear.

Only discussing the sear because it's being touted as... what was the word... revolutionary? Was that the word? Is anyone going to amend that?

I dug up a classic sear+pin and measured the pin.

First thing I did was emit a few expletives regarding customary units.

And then I thought... hrm. 3/16" sounds kind of familiar.

Dug into a drawer for some old crap that I was going to use for PC modding but never got around to.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jJXfEyFjxoo/Vs-9iuO82oI/AAAAAAAAIn4/a31L5A66y10/s640-Ic42/20160225_204505.jpg

Looks pretty goofy, but functionally... seemed to come out right. Shaft was taken from an old CDROM drive.

The problem is that there's no rail out there that supports this configuration. So I had to make one. But I can't print a full rail. I can only print... part of one.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-j3Q747qWpPE/Vs-9gg8KIgI/AAAAAAAAIn4/z1cPJPY0W90/s640-Ic42/20160225_204519.jpg

That looks REALLY goofy. It's just barely, barely enough to hold the gun together; I'm relying more on the grip frame to keep things together.

The print didn't even come out right; the ends lifted off the bed so it's kind of distorted, and I should adjust for some print issues. (Sear holes came out way too large, but that's OK because the sear's holding onto the sear pin now.)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ca9tyzfLgMI/Vs-9kobOLtI/AAAAAAAAIn4/GiV5f_w6_4A/s640-Ic42/20160225_203932.jpg

Yep.

As badly out of spec as that rail was (not to mention my amateur rivet work), it actually worked just fine. I had a small leak out the front at rest because it's an LX bolt and I would need to adjust the shims for this configuration; I could kind of wiggle things and make the leak go away.

Couple of things:

1. Press fit classic sear pin appears to work just fine.
2. I know mags are renown for intolerance of poor tolerances, but if I can make something like this which actually works... imagine what kind of colossal, industrial grade f-up is actually necessary to produce a failure. Like I said, you can't do superior things and produce worse results..

I mean, you can, but don't expect people to celebrate it.





No, that's flawed logic. There are many reasons why a company can fail to adopt something new; they may lack the financial or manufacturing means, lack the legal right to use the technology, choose not to include a feature that will cost more to produce and slim an already narrow margin, or force a price increase that takes a product outside of its target market. Some manufacturers try to pursue different solutions to the same problem new features address, while others don't think it's a problem at all (even if their customers do) - case in point,

So it's OK to say that adoption of something is absolutely "proof in the pudding", but lack of adoption means nothing? That is extremely convenient.

The rest of this is, again, just deferring to history and a couple of other psychological tells which I can link later.




The MM2K9 wasn't even a PTP design; it was designed by an AO member due to general interest in a new marker being created - why? Because people LIKED older PTP markers and wanted a new one, or they were attracted by the new features it alleged to offer. It wasn't offered with a pretty ano pattern, your choices were black, dust black, gunmetal or raw so color options clearly weren't the draw. PTP screwed it up royally; their tolerances were all over the place and many of the markers didn't work, they iced the cake with delay after delay, bad customer service and the failure to deliver parts and other product. Nobody is disputing that, the question is how does that balance with the decade plus of good customer service and quality products that preceded their more recent screwups, and why DID people like their older products, why DO they like their older products now and find them worth collecting?

I've been out of paintball for 2 years; I sold my collection to take care of medical bills. All I've got left, really, is a nonfunctional MM2K9 body that I can't in good conscience pass on to another person because it does not work properly and I'm fairly sure it can't be made to... I doubt anybody here would invest in a new PTP product; I certainly wouldn't, and why the guys on Custom Cockers chose to is completely beyond me, as is what PTP was thinking when they pulled that crap on the heels of the MM2K9. However, if I was to start playing again, I wouldn't hesitate to buy an older PTP product as many other AO'ers do and have done. I ordered a product from a user on this site who I won't name, a custom body, and never received it - many customers did get theirs and they worked, but I was unable to contact the manufacturer (they didn't answer my emails, it was too late for PayPal) and I've not heard anything since. I wouldn't buy a marker from them either, but I don't feel that reflects on the quality of service or product they offered in the past, which is what attracted me to them - it only matters going forward.

I wasn't just talking about the MM2K9, it extends to the other products as well. Where was that one thread where PTP just gave up and replaced a customers marker with an emag?

Even if ithe 2k9 wasn't PTPs design, they should have been the gatekeepers. They're supposed to be the exalted experts with whatever number of years of historical experience and the glory of paintball generations past and the majesty of anodizing blah blah blah blah. I

[GoatBoy]

Today, let's talk about PTP detents.

Let's start off with the obligatory quote(s) to clarify that I'm responding to statements already made.


and put a superior detent on automags

The PTP detent is kind of this big clunky thing that is really kind of overkill and underkill at the same time. A detent doesn't really need to be that large or that invasive to work, and you still only get 1 detent when I'm kind of convinced that 2 opposing ones is a better setup.

And if your "play style" is such that you take body hits that literally require sear removal to clean*, then you're gonna hate a detent that cuts a relatively gaping slot in your body that leads directly into your breech for no good reason, because you WILL be taking hits there, and they WILL foul your shots directly, unlike paint between the body/rail which won't affect performance for the most part. And since these bodies aren't twist lock, that means if you really want to clean it all out, you have to unscrew the barrel (assuming the barrel is even removable in the first place). So you can't possibly like this detent if you're really that "xtreme", particularly considering you can do as good or better with smaller, smarter, less obnoxious designs. So if you thought cleaning paint out from the sear was annoying, "You're gonna hate Fridays" (http://indigo.org/humor/week.html).

Even the cocker detent design is superior to this PTP detent, which is why PTP switched to it in the newest, most modern iteration -- the 6th generation MM 2K9. The proof is in the pudding.**

Honestly, it looks like the kind of big external clunky thing that... I would do. (And have done.)

Except I have no access to manufacturing or design resources.

I'm pretty sure celebrated professionals with full access to production resources should be able to do better. You can't be better but do worse.

It's not actually that terrible, but a blown up wire nubbin isn't exactly revolutionary either.


* This is not actually true.

** This is a logical fallacy. So don't bother providing any counter arguments to this one because I already know it's false. See, I can do it too. Except when I do it, I'm honest about it, and do it purposely in the hopes it is a teachable moment. Not holding my breath.

[Frizzle Fry]

Goatboy, let it go. What made you decide you needed to revive this thread? Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed or something? Maybe seek "someone" out to talk about all this anger you feel; it can be really helpful or so I'm told. There are some medications available... they might help even you out some.



The PTP detent is almost 25 years old and was designed to compete with wire detentes and foam fingers. It did a better job than those designs - nuff said. At the time when it was released 'cocker detents didn't exist on cockers. "Cocker Detents" from WGP were no detent at all, and when custom shops added threaded detents, they often screwed up the placement which anyone who owned a proshop cocker in the early 90s can tell you. The PTP detent was more forgiving about placement because of how it could be adjusted when installed. This has been discussed to death. It looks clunky? Half of the market looked clunky in the early 90s - I'm not sure I get your point. A couple years earlier the most popular gun on the market was made of brass tubes braised together, and of the two most popular markers out there at the time of the PTP detents release, one barely tolerated co2 (and HPA wasn't around yet) and the other had a "clunky" (to say the least) external recocking cocking system with tiny hoses everywhere.

Yes, they switched to a different design almost 25 years later, 6+ years since the last time they produced a marker, using a design that was created by a non-PTP employee, with a breech system that made screw-ins virtually the only reasonable option. Again, what is your point? Cocker detents were outdated at this time too... Isn't it MUCH more likely that they used this design because the guy who designed the marker used this design? PTPs own design wouldn't fit the rotating breech system, and rubber nubbins would require a retention system which means more parts and more milling - more cost.

The sear argument... c'mon. Can we get a show of hands here? Anyone ever remove their sear when cleaning their markers? Anyone with a classic marker ever find broken paint scuzz between their body and rail? Anyone want a rail with a sear pin you have to use a hammer and punch to remove? For that matter does anyone want a marker that you have to use a hammer and punch to disassemble? I'm sure some people would be OK with that, but most people wouldn't.



I'm thinking of "pulling a GoatBoy" and starting a thread to whine about how much heavier Zenith tube TVs are compared to modern flatscreens. Those huge clunky remotes and some don't even have them, and they take FOREVER to turn on by comparison, and the company screwed everyone over when they sold out to LG. I mean those rabbit ear antennas look like something I'd make in shop class - professional manufacturers should have simply created a fiber optic network the instant that television was created. I made my own TV parts out of plastic using designs that appeal to 1% of 1% of TV watchers and I'm pretty sure that gives me a leg to stand on when arguing about things from the past that I don't understand because I wasn't there.


P.S. to the OP... some of us remember how gung ho you were for the 2K9 and the prospect of a new PTP 'cocker. If the old products (which you owned) are such garbage, why the interest?

[going_home]

P.S. to the OP... some of us remember how gung ho you were for the 2K9 and the prospect of a new PTP 'cocker. If the old products (which you owned) are such garbage, why the interest?

It was my "latest" project.

As soon as the next one was completed it was gone.

My "interest" was short, thus the thread.

[JKR]

So much hate...

Seems spring weather has goatboy out trolling this weekend.

[Nobody]

Not hate, but more of a fascination with something that time has passed by. I personally can understand the historical aspects, but to say that, to me, that something that never really progressed pasted 15 years ago can have real relevance now is wrong.

Yes, the anno guns were special, but i do not see the entire line as special. To me, that is saying a 1968 4 cylinder mustang is as special as Steve McQueen's GT390. Same car but 2 totally different reactions.

[luke]

To me, that is saying a 1968 4 cylinder mustang is as special as Steve McQueen's GT390. Same car but 2 totally different reactions.

FMC didn't put a 4 cylinder in the Mustang until 1974. :)

[blackdeath1k]

I see there relavence just like I see AGD and WGP. And Palmer's at the time. 3 of the 4 were literally creating new prototype designs of markers to progress a "new" sport. PTP was spending money and resources designing stuff to make the existing platforms better....at the time. That doesn't mean that looking back they magically had the best design. But rarely does the first prototype design become the final product. Someone has to show that said product is useful and needed. They did that. In turn more started testing ideas. Look how many flavors of air valves there were before the final L7 valve. At the time though there design of detent was probably the best and most reliably functional. And there AL body brought something to mags that people wanted. Did time pass PTP by before the year 2000? Yes. But that doesn't knock there relavence before. People collect all sorts of things. Whatever floats there boat. Me. I only keep and buy what I plan to use. But that's not the mentality of all.

[JKR]

Not hate, but more of a fascination with something that time has passed by. I personally can understand the historical aspects, but to say that, to me, that something that never really progressed pasted 15 years ago can have real relevance now is wrong.


So...'Mags with X-Valves have no relevance now? Not much difference in Mags now and 15 years ago...

[Nobody]

So...'Mags with X-Valves have no relevance now? Not much difference in Mags now and 15 years ago...

With an Xvalve, people have yet to hit the theoretical limits of the valves and can easily keep up with todays guns. Its not like people have to make them pneumatic nust to get more life out of them. Time has passed by on PTP and they really need to do more and better, IMO to keep up with even AGD(if the rumor is true).

[ultralight]

For me PTP is nostalgia. It's finally being able to own those awesome, god-tier, "tournament" guns that you saw hanging on the wall at your local shop when you were still rocking a splatmaster.

I honestly never cared for the micromags, but the red nights Micrococker will be burned into my brain forever.

[JKR]

Its like chum in the water again...

Someone please lock this thread. I can't read another word about how much my 15-20 yr old PTP 'gun sucks and why my nostalgia and personal preferences are total crap.

[boo]

With an Xvalve, people have yet to hit the theoretical limits of the valves and can easily keep up with todays guns. Its not like people have to make them pneumatic nust to get more life out of them. Time has passed by on PTP and they really need to do more and better, IMO to keep up with even AGD(if the rumor is true).

:rofl::rofl:

Are you really saying one barely operating former shell of a company needs to step up their game so they don't get beat by another barely operating former shell of a company?

[Nobody]

:rofl::rofl:

Are you really saying one barely operating former shell of a company needs to step up their game so they don't get beat by another barely operating former shell of a company?

Did you read the last line? Plus, there are people out there that are taking TK's work and improving on it. When TK was at Tunaball, he was thoroughly surprised that Lornecash was able to fit the Xmod onto the stock board. Not to mention the various pneumags. But what do i know?

[boo]

So PTP needs to really step it up their game because AGD is beating them, except by AGD you mean the AGD fanboys that make up this website.

Let's give credit where credit is due. PTP has not done **** recently and AGD has not done **** in 10 years.

I'm glad they are around to provide us with parts and that they are still making new xvalves, but lets give credit to the actual people making automag stuff. Not AGD. If a new marker comes out on the AGD brand it will be because someone here got to use their name. Kind of like AGD Europe doing the xmag for AGD.

[Nobody]

And is that a bad thing?

My contention is that, AGD as a company is a shell of what it formally was. Though many people are keeping the the brand alive and vibrant. PTP has not changed, it has not done anything more than what it had 16 years ago. I could say since 2009, but many people STILL haven't been compensated for the 2k9 fiasco(i couldn't tell you, as i was not around for that).

No i could care less either way. I liked the look of the old anno'd guns, but to rest your laurels on 1 thing is not a strong company model. The end all is that i will support agd. That should be everyone's goal that uses AGD products.

[Walker]

The end all is that i will support agd. That should be everyone's goal that uses AGD products.

Naturally... Or we may end up in the same boat as those who own equipment from GetReal Paintball, no longer able to get spares.

As for ProTeam, if you don't like their equipment, or just the company in general, don't buy their products. That is your right as a consumer. Not all of us feel the same way, not all of us have had the same experience with them, but I respect your right to your own preference.

As for AutoMags, I don't care what body you use. Once you put an AGD valve in, it becomes an Automag. Whether the body is an AGD, PTP, XMT, EVO, or anyone elses, or it came off a wood lathe or is an old rifle stock, it is still an Automag.... To me... :)

Enjoy your prejudices, for in the end; they are yours to keep.


Walker

[boo]

Naturally... Or we may end up in the same boat as those who own equipment from GetReal Paintball, no longer able to get spares.

As for ProTeam, if you don't like their equipment, or just the company in general, don't buy their products. That is your right as a consumer. Not all of us feel the same way, not all of us have had the same experience with them, but I respect your right to your own preference.

As for AutoMags, I don't care what body you use. Once you put an AGD valve in, it becomes an Automag. Whether the body is an AGD, PTP, XMT, EVO, or anyone elses, or it came off a wood lathe or is an old rifle stock, it is still an Automag.... To me... :)

Enjoy your prejudices, for in the end; they are yours to keep.


Walker

Exactly, stop trying to argue that in 2016 AGD is better then PTP. It's a totally illogical argument, or that PTP needs to step it up. The sun set on both companies, one left some sunburn, but their days are both over.

Both AGD and PTP offer great customer service in 2016 if you want to order some parts and that's more then most old school companies can offer. And that's great, because unless you've been living under a rock PTP was not a one trick pony, they did great things for a lot of different markers.

If you want to support automags don't rally around AGD, rally around all the great people here that are keeping automags alive by offering new bodies, frames, etc.

I've got one XMT body and I really hope to buy more from all the guys here doing great things.

I guess I should buy an XMT evo and put a micro eMAG lower on it, and that would be keeping PTP innovative like AGD :rolleyes:

[cockerpunk]

So PTP needs to really step it up their game because AGD is beating them, except by AGD you mean the AGD fanboys that make up this website.

Let's give credit where credit is due. PTP has not done **** recently and AGD has not done **** in 10 years.

I'm glad they are around to provide us with parts and that they are still making new xvalves, but lets give credit to the actual people making automag stuff. Not AGD. If a new marker comes out on the AGD brand it will be because someone here got to use their name. Kind of like AGD Europe doing the xmag for AGD.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Y083uOcg1fc/VWjsqOmLDTI/AAAAAAADuR4/9-n_M8xXVuU/s1600/7ac.jpg

[JKR]

So PTP needs to really step it up their game because AGD is beating them, except by AGD you mean the AGD fanboys that make up this website.

Let's give credit where credit is due. PTP has not done **** recently and AGD has not done **** in 10 years.

I'm glad they are around to provide us with parts and that they are still making new xvalves, but lets give credit to the actual people making automag stuff. Not AGD. If a new marker comes out on the AGD brand it will be because someone here got to use their name. Kind of like AGD Europe doing the xmag for AGD.

Lets not count AGD out yet. Seems that Sandman's arrival at AGD has breathed some new life into the company. At least you get that impression reading FB. Time will tell but I am hopeful to see some new products out of AGD in the future.

[GoatBoy]

Obligatory quote to start things off:


first unibody Automag

Why is a unibody mag such a revolutionary achievement?

Isn't this a "unibody"?

http://www.stockclasspaintball.com/images/markers/pgp.jpg

Or this?

http://www.vintagerex.com/pics/gunpics/FAST/F1%20Illustrator/gallery/f1_r.jpg

I mean I don’t know what criteria, if any, you’re operating off of, but I kind of want to call this a unibody:

http://www.vintagerex.com/pics/gunpics/WGP%20-%20Worr%20Game%20Products/Sniper%20I/sniper.jpg

“Unibody” doesn’t exactly seem like a new idea. First one for the automag, sure, but... nobody really benefitted from this technological (non)achievement, which puts it into "solution looking for a problem" category.

Unibody for unibody’s sake is barely notable. In this case, it looks like it’s a necessity for using aluminum without adequate design or technology support. So really claiming both aluminum and unibody is double dipping.

Going unibody at the very least broke compatibility with all existing foregrips and gave them an excuse to hose the sear situation.

It barely made the mag lighter (if at all), and took away options.

Maybe the only good thing that really came out of this was the fact that they were forced into a removable feedneck (which would make that double-dipping as well). Unfortunately nothing came of it, possibly because this particular implementation was kind of “meh”. Probably because it was done, again, out of necessity instead of for the purposes of actual accessories.

As far as proving things with pudding, would you guys even call the MM2K9 a unibody design? Like an entire removable front section and breech as separate components... not sure I would call that any more "unibody" than anything else anymore. So if PTP themselves went away from "unibody", that must mean that unibody was inferior BECAUSE PUDDING!*

* Yes, I know it's horrible reasoning, but I'm trying to make a point made up of your lesser, weaker points.

[JKR]

Obligatory quote to start things off:



Why is a unibody mag such a revolutionary achievement?



Because it hadn't been done before...duh!

Lets not discuss paintball and its marketing of non-essential "upgrades" and industry firsts. If you think PTP was the only manufacturer to do this then you are crazier than I think you are.

No one technically benefits from different colors of anno or milling either, yet look at the offerings of current markers.

Try to look past your hate of PTP and understand people have preferences and likes that don't match yours. Trying to prove those likes are inferior with smug bravado proves nothing.

[boo]

Lets not count AGD out yet. Seems that Sandman's arrival at AGD has breathed some new life into the company. At least you get that impression reading FB. Time will tell but I am hopeful to see some new products out of AGD in the future.

He's getting more parts run, which is good. I'm glad to see ule frames becoming available again since they are an excellent frame.

But here's the thing. They have an excellent frame and an excellent valve. There's no reason to come out with an electro, it's overly complex, adds additional weight and the top level of paintball is semi auto only. Even with the expired SP patent. I don't know if it would be worth running new ULE bodies since they still have them in stock and you can buy a ULE mag brand new.

I'll continue to bet if AGD does a new mag they will have Luke, XMT, or another member here run some cool bodies or license a design and sell them new.

If AGD made a true comeback they'd need a clean sheet design. It's just not worth it. The AGD design is at its max potential with the xvalve and unibody, something that came about 15 years ago through AGD and PTP.

You guys need to give PTP credit for who they were. They were a very good aftermarket company who never took that next step like PE, Dye, or Empire (NPS at the time).

All people are doing to make an "AGD comeback" is (what I suspect) is coming out with uniquely milled unibodies with xvalves. Hmmm, so the claim is that for AGD to be relevant again they need to be PTP circa 2000. And that's paintball marketing, to make what's old new again.

I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing. I like AGD, PTP and the crazy devoted machinists and homebrew designers here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/audioshack/BF88FDDD_zpsc1232c99.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/audioshack/media/BF88FDDD_zpsc1232c99.jpg.html)
Face it, name a new design that's not just a refinement of this...

[Nobody]

He's getting more parts run, which is good. I'm glad to see ule frames becoming available again since they are an excellent frame.

Supply and demand. Since there are what, 14 different frames(AGD CF, AGD intelliframe, Benchmark single, double & Medusa frames, 32°, Diamond labs, Gripstick Dye, Triton, RPG, Luke single & double trigger frames, Magnus) that you can get in the open market, not to mention the ease of DIY retrofitting of different frames(Angel, Axe and every else you can think of). There is not much need to stock 1000s of frames.


But here's the thing. They have an excellent frame and an excellent valve. There's no reason to come out with an electro, it's overly complex, adds additional weight and the top level of paintball is semi auto only. Even with the expired SP patent. I don't know if it would be worth running new ULE bodies since they still have them in stock and you can buy a ULE mag brand new.

With that thinking, there is no reason to have fuel injection, when a carburetor can still work.

It's not a question of making it more complex, its a matter of making it easier to pull the trigger. That was the exact reason why the Angel was developed(true story, Jim Rice of WDP wanted a gun that you can put in an amateur that could shoot as fast as a pro). Its also has a bigger mark up to make money. Sure, it has more parts and has more to make it work, but the price at which you can sell it means that you could earn more money. Which is the reason why people make things to sell.


I'll continue to bet if AGD does a new mag they will have Luke, XMT, or another member here run some cool bodies or license a design and sell them new.

Nope, that won't happen. AGD will want to keep it in house. And more importantly, Luke is just getting into the body making business, but XMT(unless i am mistaken) works with someone on the designs.


If AGD made a true comeback they'd need a clean sheet design. It's just not worth it. The AGD design is at its max potential with the xvalve and unibody, something that came about 15 years ago through AGD and PTP.

Wow, talk about myopic view on life. To me, other than shrinking the size,but not the footprint( you still need the valve to work with older designs), or making something new, that was drawn up years ago, but never released. AGD has done a lot that people never seen before, like the Zframe, 6pack, viable full face mask, HPA, reactive triggers, L10 bolt; so i can not see what else could be done. But i also have not been thinking about it, either.


You guys need to give PTP credit for who they were. They were a very good aftermarket company who never took that next step like PE, Dye, or Empire (NPS at the time).

A good aftermarket company puts out products that people want. PTP met a point where there was nothing there and never did anything more. You need to see what the players want and then figure out a solution to what they want. PE, Dye and Empire, did a few things that were ok, but never came back to make anything more. ANS did more and most of their products were crap. So no, i won't give PTP any more credit cause they don't deserve it. Its called not resting on your laurels. Hell, the 2K9 failed was 7 years ago... Come on, wake up


All people are doing to make an "AGD comeback" is (what I suspect) is coming out with uniquely milled unibodies with xvalves. Hmmm, so the claim is that for AGD to be relevant again they need to be PTP circa 2000. And that's paintball marketing, to make what's old new again.

What is old seems to sell, in a new package. Look at the Sniper and Ressurection; cleaned up, updated, simplified, improved and they sell. Half the fight is telling people that AGD is still alive and you can buy them new still. Look at the viral marketing of what the L10 did. People where showing what the 1 biggest probem was with mags and it was magically fixed. Marketing is one of the biggest holes which a company can dump money in and not see a return. So a new body or anything new, as long as it looks good and functions how its supposed to. No complaints here...


I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing. I like AGD, PTP and the crazy devoted machinists and homebrew designers here.

A lot of us do, hence creation of a forum where we can all show what we mak3, how we build it and what we need.

[JKR]

I suggested to Sandman to do a new variant of the Automag that focuses on light weight, simplicity, and a lower cost to get them into the hands of the new generation of players.

My suggestion was a mix of parts they currently have...X-Valve (or Classic in aluminum if lower cost is possible), ULE body, L10 bolt, stock carbon fiber frame, rubber grips, and stock rail. Sold without barrel and without ASA unless requested.

It wouldn't be a super cheap 'gun but if they could aim for around $350-$400 retail, it might sell pretty well. I know my son is about ready for his first marker and this would be my choice for him.

[going_home]

Face it, name a new design that's not just a refinement of this...



https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d6/b2/13/d6b21377078821bb74bd6e38205c1ef8.jpg

[Walker]

Lets go back to the original questions:


Why is it that some people are all gaga over any markers by Pro Team Products ? Because we like them.

I just dont get it, the Micromags, the Cockers, why ? Because we like them.

When you get past the anodizing (if the have other than black) they arent much IMHO. Everyone has their own opinion. I consider them AutoMags, and like them.

Am I biased because of the 2009 Micromag debacle , or the one that happened over on custom cockers ? Only you know the reason for your bias, you will have to answer this question yourself. Some others may have the same bias, others may not.

:confused:

As for me, I like the ProTeam/BenchMark/Armson products. The AutoMag is easily my favorite paintball gun. The configuration I like best is based on Luke's low pressure equipment.


Walker

[Nobody]

I suggested to Sandman to do a new variant of the Automag that focuses on light weight, simplicity, and a lower cost to get them into the hands of the new generation of players.

Ummm, unless i missed something, the mag is pretty much the simpliest gun out there. 2 screws takes the hole damn gun apart. Have a small leak, put 3 drops of oil in it to seal it. Leak still there, its either 2 orings(powertube or on/off orings). Costs... That is the kicker. The ion & the enmy killed everything on prices. Weight, is another thing you can't really do much with, unless you skeletonize the gun, which is not cost effective. Lets face it, the $100 market is inundated with walmart specials, Tippmanns and anything else that is cheap. If you aim higher for the quality & non-rental market, it will better, IMO.


My suggestion was a mix of parts they currently have...X-Valve (or Classic in aluminum if lower cost is possible), ULE body, L10 bolt, stock carbon fiber frame, rubber grips, and stock rail. Sold without barrel and without ASA unless requested.

Costs for a new classic valve will be higher than an Xvalve. Yes, you have the design, but how many are you going to make? 100, 200, 500, 1000? That is a lot of capital that AGD might not want to spend on something that isn't really needed. Think about the pump kits, Zframe, Yframe. All invested in, but they where all considered commercial flops.

The problem now is, most guns come ready to play with a barrel and ASA. No one wants to buy a gun anymore where you need multiple parts to complete it. Older, established players prefer than, but not entry level. Its a damned if you do, damned if you don't.


It wouldn't be a super cheap 'gun but if they could aim for around $350-$400 retail, it might sell pretty well. I know my son is about ready for his first marker and this would be my choice for him.

The price you are wishing. I doubt that will happen. A bare bones Mag off AGD's site is still $530. That is with an ASA & no barrel. Most people here will know that a classic will be about $75 give or take accessories. The real key to this is, what AGD has in stock and what they don't. Are there CF frames still? How many groovy grips(i.e. the rubber grips that fit on them) are still around? The same with the classic rails? I would love to see AGD come into the market where the Ressurection is sitting, but AGD will have a mountain to climb to get it at that price range with all of those features(venting ASA, lever-lock feedneck, barrel kit). I am a realist. I am happy AGD is going to do something new...

[JKR]

Costs for a new classic valve will be higher than an Xvalve. Yes, you have the design, but how many are you going to make? 100, 200, 500, 1000?



The price you are wishing. I doubt that will happen. A bare bones Mag off AGD's site is still $530. That is with an ASA & no barrel. Most people here will know that a classic will be about $75 give or take accessories. The real key to this is, what AGD has in stock and what they don't. Are there CF frames still? How many groovy grips(i.e. the rubber grips that fit on them) are still around? The same with the classic rails?


They wouldn't have to worry about making any number to stock as this variant is just an assembly of parts they probably already stock. They might have to have some new CF frames molded and order those and perhaps some rubber grips but little else would be required. If not a classic rail, then the rail used for the RT ULE Pro or the Tac One.

Heck, why not make a carbon fiber rail for all their 'guns? With screw inserts used with the aluminum versions and a metal insert for the z shaped milled out part for valve to lock into place, their carbon fiber material for the grip frames has proven insanely strong and could easily be used for the rail without issue.

I think the price I am estimating could be feasible given the RT ULE Pro without barrel and ASA is $481 currently. Deduct the price difference between the Intelliframe and the CF frame and deduct the front ASA and bike grip and I believe they could come in under $400 and still maintain a margin they can live with.

[Merce]

Might be feasible but even fit that price range people expect the features of an etek, axe, or g5. Even the JT impulse is priced at 500$. You're not going to bring in new players with a marker that's hundreds of dollars and no features included. People tend to look at how quality your high end markers are before trusting a "budget" gun in my opinion.

[luke]

Personally I wouldn't hold my breath for a bunch of new parts from AGD. It's highly unlikely anyone will invest the kind of money necessary to bring the price point down low enough to make most of the suggestions here feasible. It would be a gigantic gamble with horrible odds in today's market. It's only been stated that "maybe we can work on some new stuff too" that's a far cry from revamping the marker line at an entry level price point. Of course we all want to see AGD reboot itself, but to scale it back up is going to take time, money and someone willing to take the risk. If it was a good gamble I think Tom would likely be at the helm again.

[JKR]

I don't think that AGD will be revamping their line to entry level price points. That's like offering an entry level Rolls Royce or something...just not meant to be. AGD gained its fame with reliability and well-engineered products and should maintain that course regardless of life after the Ion.

I am only hoping they offer some new high-end parts and 'guns along with a lower cost, lighter weight option than they currently have. Aside from the molding of rubber grips and carbon fiber frames, everything else is off the shelf parts in a new combination that offers little risk compared to coming up with a brand new 'gun. Knocking $100 off the retail of an AGD gun might gain a few converts and puts this marker in pretty good competition with the Resurrection in price.

[Nobody]

They wouldn't have to worry about making any number to stock as this variant is just an assembly of parts they probably already stock. They might have to some new CF frames molded and order those and perhaps some rubber grips but little else would be required. If not a classic rail, then the rail used for the RT ULE Pro or the Tac One.

That is a big assumption. Yes, they have some stuff in storage, but how many? It takes uo a lot of space to hold that stuff, especially for 15 years or so. ViewLoader either made the same grips as AGD or went in with AGD together. I had a set, but the costs to make the molds for a set of grips, then to have them made is a buge amount of money. Most places won't do orders for a few hundred. Its more like 10,000 pieces for a molding place to even consider the order.


Heck, why not make a carbon fiber rail for all their 'guns? With screw inserts used with the aluminum versions and a metal insert for the z shaped milled out part for valve to lock into place, their carbon fiber material for the grip frames has proven insanely strong and could easily be used for the rail without issue.

Strong yes, cost effective for a rail, probably not. Even if the design was a direct copy of either the classic rail or the RT rail, you still have to have it made. Again, how many will it take to get the costs down to a relatively decent price? The problem of weight for the classic valve was not the rail, it was all the stainless steel that made up the valve. TK designed it so it can last 1000 years(or so the story goes), he didn't expect the next generation to have tiny Tyrannusaurus Rex arms...


I think the price I am estimating could be feasible given the RT ULE Pro without barrel and ASA is $481 currently. Deduct the price difference between the Intelliframe and the CF frame and deduct the front ASA and bike grip and I believe they could come in under $400 and still maintain a margin they can live with.

You are laboring u.der the impression that they have vast quanities of parts(least 1000+) available. I would love to be proven wrong on that, but even if they did. Look at what a $400 Ressurection gives you. A very nice barrel kit, a lever lock feedneck & a very nice ASA. Empire also has great customer service, more than a few people there to fix a problem gun; more than the 2 known people working at AGD now. A new or even updated gun is a vast undertaking, that requires capital to put into it. That capital needs to sit till you sell off enough guns to make a profit, which might take years.

I love mags, and i would love to see AGD come in and dominate the mech class. That will not happen without a huge miracle. Again, i would live to be proven wrong.

[BiNumber3]

Not sure where else there'd be weight savings really, aside from making all intelli-frames UL milled stock. The current bodies, rails, and valves are already pretty light. Only lighter bodies are probably XMT's carbon fiber ones. A carbon fiber rail would be interesting, but doubt it'd be a profitable endeavor (and it'd have to be pretty stylish looking, can't look like the CF Frames, which are awesome, but not exactly pretty).
With the Valves, we'll never realistically reach the limits of the RT/X valves with normal play, the only thing you might improve on is gas efficiency, or low pressure operation, which many have already tried I think.

Back on topic though, I've enjoyed all the micromags I've had, from gen3 to gen4. The E-micro's are too blocky for me. So far, aside from anodizing issues due to the steel ring, I've only had 1 micro cause issues (it was lacking the ring, and it wasn't a mm2k9).

They provided a different option for people back when they first came out, did they improve on things? Not particularly, though having a unified rail/body was quite nice, and having cocker threads.
Many of the things they incorporated were just creative answers to things. The VASA? Sure, it made the standard am/mm VASA's unusable on them, but it wouldn't have been pretty to try to make an am/mm VASA work on them. And if you wanted one, you could order it with one. I personally don't go swapping the VASA on and off my mags often.

Detent? It works and they rarely if ever needed to be replaced.
Changeable feed? Main reason for it was probably to make manufacturing easier on them, and still answer the needs of the many. Only 1 body design needed to be made, and if you wanted left or right feed, you just chose that feedneck. This probably was also affected by the detent design, how troublesome would it be to have to make a mirror image body just to cater to the people who wanted an opposite feed direction.

Different answers to the same problems, and different iterations of the ideas at the time. If we always condemn those who try different things, we'd never have gotten to where we are.

Oh, and style-wise... most guns were tubes stacked on tubes, or blocks.... the automag was described as a barrel with a gripframe lol. Styles and tastes change.

[JKR]

Look at what a $400 Ressurection gives you. A very nice barrel kit, a lever lock feedneck & a very nice ASA. Empire also has great customer service, more than a few people there to fix a problem gun; more than the 2 known people working at AGD now. A new or even updated gun is a vast undertaking, that requires capital to put into it. That capital needs to sit till you sell off enough guns to make a profit, which might take years.



Everywhere I see Resurrections, they are around $550 new.

[JKR]

You are laboring u.der the impression that they have vast quanities of parts(least 1000+) available. I would love to be proven wrong on that, but even if they did. Look at what a $400 Ressurection gives you. A very nice barrel kit, a lever lock feedneck & a very nice ASA. Empire also has great customer service, more than a few people there to fix a problem gun; more than the 2 known people working at AGD now. A new or even updated gun is a vast undertaking, that requires capital to put into it. That capital needs to sit till you sell off enough guns to make a profit, which might take years.



That is the beauty of coming up with a variant of the Automag using existing parts, no need to order or stock the common parts with their other models, just assemble to order. Again, I am unsure of the status of the CF frame and grips but for the sake of argument, lets be optimistic on availability to get started. If it took off, they might have incentive to order more.

But hey, this is all "pie in the sky" dreaming anyway...I don't work there!

[boo]

Ok, this thread went full retard a long time ago, but the scotch and sodas are bringing me back.

Supply and demand. Since there are tiwhat, 14 different frames(AGD CF, AGD intelliframe, Benchmark single, double & Medusa frames, 32°, Diamond labs, Gripstick Dye, Triton, RPG, Luke single & double trigger frames, Magnus) that you can get in the open market, not to mention the ease of DIY retrofitting of different frames(Angel, Axe and every else you can think of). There is not much need to stock 1000s of frames.

Nobody liked the CF frame. Sure, they could support the weight of Coker punks fastest car (Miata), they still felt like they were the same frame of a brass eagle stingray. The Dye frame sucked mostly because you can still to this day get the identical 32* knockoff. PTP modified the benchmarks for Mags, while not better then any agd frame by naming them you're just supporting why PTP was a decent aftermarket company. All the other frames mentioned were created by AGD fans on this site. While they were nice they were very small production runs.

The ule intelliframe is awesome. It is the best mass produced frame you can get for a mag. Damn right it's a good thing AGD is doing another run. The 2 people running the company know what they are doing more then anyone else here.

With that thinking, there is no reason to have fuel injection, when a carburetor can still work.
It's not a question of making it more complex, its a matter of making it easier to pull the trigger.


Remember when they tried to half ass retrofit fuel injection to carberated cars? It was called throttle body injection, it sucked dick, and was the reason that American cars were slower then European cars with half the cylinders in the 80’s. That's what emags are.

Think real hard and name me a current spool valve design that could be improved with a mag valve. When the Matrix progressed to reliability after a few generations the eMAG was made irrelevant.

Nope, that won't happen. AGD will want to keep it in house. And more importantly, Luke is just getting into the body making business, but XMT(unless i am mistaken) works with someone on the designs.

Cuz you know how AGD is running their business? You're the one claiming they are “making a comeback”. Do you have evidence they are coming out with a new body? I’m betting if I was a machnisht and I called up the 2 guys running AGD and said “I have a body so awesome it will move a thousand ule intelliframes and Xvalves” they would let me officially call it an AGD marker.


Wow, talk about myopic view on life. To me, other than shrinking the size,but not the footprint( you still need the valve to work with older designs), or making something new, that was drawn up years ago, but never released. AGD has done a lot that people never seen before, like the Zframe, 6pack, viable full face mask, HPA, reactive triggers, L10 bolt; so i can not see what else could be done. But i also have not been thinking about it, either.

Yes, Tom Kaye was a visionary, where is he now? Visionary enough to stay away from this idiocracy that makes up the current paintball industry.



A good aftermarket company puts out products that people want. PTP met a point where there was nothing there and never did anything more. You need to see what the players want and then figure out a solution to what they want. PE, Dye and Empire, did a few things that were ok, but never came back to make anything more. ANS did more and most of their products were crap. So no, i won't give PTP any more credit cause they don't deserve it. Its called not resting on your laurels. Hell, the 2K9 failed was 7 years ago... Come on, wake up

WTF are you talking about. Have you been living under a rock? Dye, PE, and Empire did a few things that were ok but nothing more? Uh, Dye Matrix, Ego, Geo, and Axe? Hell, Dye started out as an aftermaket company for the Matrix and ended up owning it.

PTP pushed the limits of what you could do with the aftermarket and did a decent job at it, until a bunch of Automag and Cocker fanboys convinced them they knew the market better and convinced them to release some **** products. PTPs biggest mistake was listening to you idiots (the paintball community at large) instead of making their own markers.

What is old seems to sell, in a new package. Look at the Sniper and Ressurection; cleaned up, updated, simplified, improved and they sell. Half the fight is telling people that AGD is still alive and you can buy them new still. Look at the viral marketing of what the L10 did. People where showing what the 1 biggest probem was with mags and it was magically fixed. Marketing is one of the biggest holes which a company can dump money in and not see a return. So a new body or anything new, as long as it looks good and functions how its supposed to. No complaints here...
A lot of us do, hence creation of a forum where we can all show what we mak3, how we build it and what we need.
AGD doesn’t have the money to market. Empire came out with the resurrection, they basically cloned the best of the best of the cocker platform, and they didn’t sell. All the hopeful happy cocker fanboys that clamed to know how to bring back the autococker to a new generation were wrong.

You're wrong about marketing. PE, Empire, and Dye are the only companies putting money in marketing and they sell a lot more markers then anyone else in the industry. I wish Bob Long would too, they used to, but he now thinks he doesn’t have to and it's hurting his company.

The fanboys spend money on vintage collector items and one off or limited run pieces, they don’t make the OEM any money, other then replacement parts. You want to sell to the fanboys? Do something exclusive, low production, expensive, and awesome. And, you'll break even or lose money so it's truly the ultimate show of fandom.

Sure, if AGD had the money they could field a few top level tournament teams. They could send manufacturing to China and turn a profit on paintball solely on marketing. That's how you make money in paintball these days.

I suggested to Sandman to do a new variant of the Automag that focuses on light weight, simplicity, and a lower cost to get them into the hands of the new generation of players.

My suggestion was a mix of parts they currently have...X-Valve (or Classic in aluminum if lower cost is possible), ULE body, L10 bolt, stock carbon fiber frame, rubber grips, and stock rail. Sold without barrel and without ASA unless requested.

It wouldn't be a super cheap 'gun but if they could aim for around $350-$400 retail, it might sell pretty well. I know my son is about ready for his first marker and this would be my choice for him.
It's cheaper to do the ule intelliframes at this point, why would they do a new run of the CF frames? Nobody wants them and, despite the advantages it feels cheap.

The $300-$500 is the worst market for paintball, very little margin and **** sales. The Axe is the only marker that does well in that segment for a damn good reason, it's an unbeatable value against the $1k+ markers. Why would you get a generic mag for the same price as an Axe when you could buy a Gog Enmy for so much less.

The Tippman Crossover is the marker you all claim is the holy grail (price point, valve, level x, electro with a mech fallback, etc.) and guess what? It's a total ****ing failure. Just proof that everyone here knows **** about what the market wants.

And the fact that PTP has sold as many markers as they did is proof that back in the day they did know the market.

Arguing AGD vs. PTP in today's market is like calling the bookie to place bets on the special Olympics. Perhaps a better analogy would be to pit Joe Thiesman vs. Muhamid Ali in a triatholon. Just stop.

[Nobody]

Everywhere I see Resurrections, they are around $550 new.

Sorry, i got a deal on mine ;)

I must know the right people :D

[Nobody]

Ok, this thread went full retard a long time ago, but the scotch and sodas are bringing me back.

Nobody liked the CF frame. Sure, they could support the weight of Coker punks fastest car (Miata), they still felt like they were the same frame of a brass eagle stingray. The Dye frame sucked mostly because you can still to this day get the identical 32* knockoff. PTP modified the benchmarks for Mags, while not better then any agd frame by naming them you're just supporting why PTP was a decent aftermarket company. All the other frames mentioned were created by AGD fans on this site. While they were nice they were very small production runs.

The ule intelliframe is awesome. It is the best mass produced frame you can get for a mag. Damn right it's a good thing AGD is doing another run. The 2 people running the company know what they are doing more then anyone else here.

Prefer bourbon myself, but glad to have you back ;)

What is the difference between a production from PTP and production from Magnus, RPG or Luke? Other than the shear numbers of production, nothing. Also forgot KAM designs, sorry Keith.

The place where the smaller guy can excell in is seeing what people want and doing the opposite of what the parent comoany does. People outting on 90° Angel frames on a gun, showed there was a market for 90° frames. Just because you either did not want, could not buy or missed out on them does not mean they are any less of a frame.

I personally love the feel of a CF frame. It works great, but i prefer a double trigger on a mech.


Remember when they tried to half ass retrofit fuel injection to carberated cars? It was called throttle body injection, it sucked dick, and was the reason that American cars were slower then European cars with half the cylinders in the 80’s. That's what emags are.

The design is 16 years old or so. Technology has progressed, board capabilities have shrunk the size. Look at what people are doing with Ego-mags. An update from AGD would be fantasic. Is there a chance? I don't know. I can only truly guess what AGD could be doing.


Think real hard and name me a current spool valve design that could be improved with a mag valve. When the Matrix progressed to reliability after a few generations the eMAG was made irrelevant.

I don't know. But consider that the valve doesn't need to be improved. It could be messaged by trying to garner better efficiency. Again, i don't know what if anything AGD has in store. I can only hope it will sell.


Cuz you know how AGD is running their business? You're the one claiming they are “making a comeback”. Do you have evidence they are coming out with a new body? I’m betting if I was a machnisht and I called up the 2 guys running AGD and said “I have a body so awesome it will move a thousand ule intelliframes and Xvalves” they would let me officially call it an AGD marker.

Nope, no clue. I can guess at what they won't be doing. Like i said, i wish to be proven wrong.

I am only going off what i have read here when word got out that Dave was sick and unable to work the shop & Sandman had chimed in on the possibilities of new products. A newer body would be great. Refreshing the rail or overall looks would be fantastic. I could plug my sources for info but i doubt they will give me any info that i could share.


Yes, Tom Kaye was a visionary, where is he now? Visionary enough to stay away from this idiocracy that makes up the current paintball industry.

TK was a designer, an engineer. Damn good one at that. How many people can say they came up with a new design, instead of a change on what is there? He left paintball for a plethora of reasons. Hell, i think digging up dinosaurs or tracking DB Cooper proved to be a better challenge. If he partnered with someone, who knows what could have been done with TK building the machines and the face doing what faces do?


WTF are you talking about. Have you been living under a rock? Dye, PE, and Empire did a few things that were ok but nothing more? Uh, Dye Matrix, Ego, Geo, and Axe? Hell, Dye started out as an aftermaket company for the Matrix and ended up owning it.

I was referring more to the products directly related to AGD and mags, than their own products as a whole. Also, Dye bought the Matrix, they didn't develop it. PE to a point, got tired of making cosmetic changes(for the most part) to other people's products and saw that the profit was more in making a gun from the ground up.


PTP pushed the limits of what you could do with the aftermarket and did a decent job at it, until a bunch of Automag and Cocker fanboys convinced them they knew the market better and convinced them to release some **** products. PTPs biggest mistake was listening to you idiots (the paintball community at large) instead of making their own markers.

Lol... So PTP wasn't to blame, but the people asking for a new product? They didn't hear of quality control or product testing? So listening to what the people ask for, who in turn gave them money for them, and PTP is not to blame for producing a design(which i actually like) that did not work? That is like Ford blaming the people buying cars for the Edsel's demise(yes, other factors were at fault to).


AGD doesn’t have the money to market. Empire came out with the resurrection, they basically cloned the best of the best of the cocker platform, and they didn’t sell. All the hopeful happy cocker fanboys that clamed to know how to bring back the autococker to a new generation were wrong.

Actually no. I know who brought the cocker back. I even held the gun that it was modeled off of. 1 man saw that cockers were fun shooters and since the company he worked for held the rights to it, he decided to do a "trilogy" of sorts. Pump, mech then an electro version. He got 2 of the 3 out, hut was shot down on the electro version.

1 man saw that there could be a market for it and guess what, he was right. The cocker people have a huge base. Cockers are just fun to shoot. The resurrection also sells. Go to any field, you will see them out there.


You're wrong about marketing. PE, Empire, and Dye are the only companies putting money in marketing and they sell a lot more markers then anyone else in the industry. I wish Bob Long would too, they used to, but he now thinks he doesn’t have to and it's hurting his company.

The best marketing tbat you can get are people going to the field with mags and showing them what tbey can do. How did the Axe get to be everywhere? Was it a good gun, or the fact that when you got to shoot it, it did everytbing that you want in a gun and more?


The fanboys spend money on vintage collector items and one off or limited run pieces, they don’t make the OEM any money, other then replacement parts. You want to sell to the fanboys? Do something exclusive, low production, expensive, and awesome. And, you'll break even or lose money so it's truly the ultimate show of fandom.

Sure, if AGD had the money they could field a few top level tournament teams. They could send manufacturing to China and turn a profit on paintball solely on marketing. That's how you make money in paintball these days.

So how is that any different than people spending money on Jungle nights anno'd Micromag? Don't throw stones in glass houses. You are not supporting PTP directly.

The tournament scene is barely hanging on by a thread. To sponsor a team rigt now is stupid. You have no electronic gun. The pump scene is nearly west coast only & is there any mech leagues? Not to mention the fact that, there are rules against the one big reason to get a Mag(RT trigger/RT effect).

You want to make money in paintball. Have a design for a part/gun that people want to buy and they buy it. Finding what it is, well that is the problem.


It's cheaper to do the ule intelliframes at this point, why would they do a new run of the CF frames? Nobody wants them and, despite the advantages it feels cheap.

Not that no one wants them, but they are easily found on the used market. So no need to make more of them.


The $300-$500 is the worst market for paintball, very little margin and **** sales. The Axe is the only marker that does well in that segment for a damn good reason, it's an unbeatable value against the $1k+ markers. Why would you get a generic mag for the same price as an Axe when you could buy a Gog Enmy for so much less.

The Tippman Crossover is the marker you all claim is the holy grail (price point, valve, level x, electro with a mech fallback, etc.) and guess what? It's a total ****ing failure. Just proof that everyone here knows **** about what the market wants.

Yes, the mid range gun market is horrendous. Go to high, no one wants it. Go to low and people think its too cheap.


And the fact that PTP has sold as many markers as they did is proof that back in the day they did know the market.

Arguing AGD vs. PTP in today's market is like calling the bookie to place bets on the special Olympics. Perhaps a better analogy would be to pit Joe Thiesman vs. Muhamid Ali in a triatholon. Just stop.

When you monopolize on the 1 serious drawback of mags(the twistlock barrel), so that people can keep 1 barrel threading to bring to the field. Why do you think just about every gun out there came with cocker threading, other than Spyders, Angels, ICD, Tippmann and SP. That was the main reason to get a MicroMag. Do not think otherwise.

This is fun. I do enjoy this, though i think you don't find this as engrossing as i do. Please, continue in this thread.

[boo]

I'm really not trying to defend PTP 2016, I'm defending PTP 2000. I'm also mainly saying that other then having been the only company in paintball to maintain a good reputation AGD is in the exact same place in 2016 as PTP is.

AGD stopped being innovative when Tom Kaye left. While he wasn't the only visionary he was probably the most business minded. He saw that they had reached the full potential of high end mech markers.

People were buying electros for no other reason then throwing marketing money at tournaments to get rules bent to give them advantages. Because during the end of the AGD era until now tournament paintball sells markers in the high end segment.

You don't think if AGD had shown up with dollars in their twilight they could've gotten rules bent for them like in their heyday (it always took at least a season to get TK's technical advancements banned, sometimes longer). You don't think Tom couldn't of come up with an electro to get around the smart parts and matrix patent, or do it better and pay licensing? It just got to the point of diminishing returns and industry drama where the tournament scene was everything.

They rode on their success and innovations from years earlier and got phased out. It would've been a huge gamble to come up with a new electro design (that based on the industry trends had a high rate of failure).

[cockerpunk]

the main problem with revamping the mag and selling new ones, is not competition from other guns, electros etc.

its used automags. they are plentiful, and cheap. and since they are modular they can easily be upgraded to the modern spec.

[boo]

the main problem with revamping the mag and selling new ones, is not competition from other guns, electros etc.

its used automags. they are plentiful, and cheap. and since they are modular they can easily be upgraded to the modern spec.
And we're all forgetting, you can buy a new Automag from AGD in the $500 range. And all the "experts" that claim they know what's best for AGD aren't buying them.

AGD never stopped selling the ULE Xmag, you guys just stopped buying them. Why? see above...


So if AGD wanted to make a comeback with a new marker it would have to be high end and low production. This is a huge risk. A basement air smith can disappear if something goes wrong. AGD risks losing their reputation, and you can bet this community would pillory AGD if it wasn't perfect. All risk, no reward.

I'm not absolving PTP of their 2k9 micromag, I'm just pointing out that it serves as a damn good reason AGD should not release a new marker. AGD is on similar skeleton staffing (part time job for 2 people) as PTP when they released the 2k9. It's not enough to design and qa a new platform that's not just a remilling of an old design.

[BiNumber3]

With the mm2k9, wasn't the biggest issue just the lack of the steel spring cup? were there other issues as well?
(For the spring cup, they thought the aircraft grade aluminum would hold up without issue, did anyone suggest to use the steel cup anyway, during the design phase? Or rather, was it PTP themselves who decided to forgo the steel cup or was that a member suggestion?)

I mean, if they had included the steel spring cup in the first place with the mm2k9, would there have been any complaints at all?

[Spider-TW]

With the mm2k9, wasn't the biggest issue just the lack of the steel spring cup? were there other issues as well?
(For the spring cup, they thought the aircraft grade aluminum would hold up without issue, did anyone suggest to use the steel cup anyway, during the design phase? Or rather, was it PTP themselves who decided to forgo the steel cup or was that a member suggestion?)

I mean, if they had included the steel spring cup in the first place with the mm2k9, would there have been any complaints at all?

Here's an interesting look at the 7000 series aluminum and the washer/cup business....

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?239725-7075-Aluminum-integrity-(a-micromag-2009-discussion)

There were other issues as mentioned above. The whole thing was an epic thread. You've got to give credit to ZoomZ@PTP for grinding through it all.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?239114-Introducing-the-Micromag-2009

tldr; stay off 7075 aluminum for paintball.

I think TK has said something similar.

[blackdeath1k]

7075 is fine for paintball. Just don't expect it to take the place of steel.

[Spider-TW]

7075 is fine for paintball. Just don't expect it to take the place of steel.

It's great once you get it cut, just not a great thing for production.

[JKR]

So if AGD wanted to make a comeback with a new marker it would have to be high end and low production. This is a huge risk. A basement air smith can disappear if something goes wrong. AGD risks losing their reputation, and you can bet this community would pillory AGD if it wasn't perfect. All risk, no reward.



And what reputation is that? Reading half of posts here, you would think that reputation was a company that is living on its laurels, washed up and selling a product no one wants...a mere shell of its once greatness and a waste of time in the modern market.

For a site devoted to AGD, there is certainly a fair share of negativity around here.

Granted the neurotic market that is paintball is a tough place to run a business, but I like to think that there are people out there who still appreciate quality mechanical markers. I don't have sales numbers for the Resurrection but I do believe an AGD 'gun with good features at a decent price could sell and take part of the market that exists. A brand new design is a huge risk and offering a 'gun that is a different combination of existing parts and cheaper, effective parts no longer used but likely still in stock (or at least acquirable) makes sense if you ask me.

[going_home]

What if AGD found a way to do splash anno on their current markers inexpensively (cheap enough to be profitable) ?

Palmer is doing some different anno's on his same products......

[boo]

You can do physical vapor deposition coating on classic mag bodies that would allow for colors and patterns similar to ano. You can PVD both stainless and aluminum and it's gotten pretty durable in the newer generations of the technology. Desert Eagle uses it on a lot of their guns.

But, I don't know that the old way of doing mag bodies is still viable. They were hand welded in house. I'm guessing they went this route as cnc machining was probably more cost prohibitive back then. At this point they would need to be outsourced and hand welding creates a lot of QA issues. Even at a higher cost it would be better to have a company like Lapco do machined aluminum bodies.

Plus there's the whole issue of twist lock barrels. You don't want anything propriety for a smaller company. Even ICD gave up on their barrel threading and gave into cocker threading.

[going_home]

You mean people still use power feed bodies and twist locks?

But seriously, that doesn't apply to what I suggested.

I was talking about Airgun Designs.

They only sell ULE and Tac bodies now they no longer sell power feeds and twist locks.

If they could take their current offerings and offer X amount of custom anno's profitably at a price that would sell, this could cause prospective buyers consider new markers.

With the right advertising of course.

;)

[boo]

And what reputation is that? Reading half of posts here, you would think that reputation was a company that is living on its laurels, washed up and selling a product no one wants...a mere shell of its once greatness and a waste of time in the modern market.

For a site devoted to AGD, there is certainly a fair share of negativity around here.



They have the distinction of being the only paintball company to not have burned people, released **** last ditch products, chased people for shakily broad intellectual property, or sold out to NPS/empire either through force by bankruptcy or by choice. That is a huge distinction in this industry.

They are still turning out Xvalves and other replacement parts for us loyal fans. Paintball players never forgive or forget. So why ruin what they have for something they get no gain out of.

Most of the people here would just make excuses as why they wouldn't buy it when it comes out. Too expensive, doesn't have this setup, not different enough, etc.

I have more contempt for the fanboys then the brand. A lot of them were the same people that were responsible for all the cocker vs. Mag flaming and misinformation and their attitudes persist. Except now its AGD vs. everything else.

[cockerpunk]

They have the distinction of being the only paintball company to not have burned people, released **** last ditch products, chased people for shakily broad intellectual property, or sold out to NPS/empire either through force by bankruptcy or by choice. That is a huge distinction in this industry.

They are still turning out Xvalves and other replacement parts for us loyal fans. Paintball players never forgive or forget. So why ruin what they have for something they get no gain out of.

Most of the people here would just make excuses as why they wouldn't buy it when it comes out. Too expensive, doesn't have this setup, not different enough, etc.

I have more contempt for the fanboys then the brand. A lot of them were the same people that were responsible for all the cocker vs. Mag flaming and misinformation and their attitudes persist. Except now its AGD vs. everything else.

i call them gun apologists.

almost all the classic brands have folks who will defend to the end of the earth the notion that this old, obsolete gun is still the best, and no one has made something better.

but thats not true. modern guns are so perfect they are boring. cheaper, lighter, smaller, more reliable, less kick, even more gentle on paint, better efficiency, simpler built, just as rugged .... i mean thats what 10-20-30 years of development gets you. there are far better guns in every single way than mags, but the fan boys will wtill argue through some contorted, distorted logic that mags are still top of the line.

they don't grasp that the reason folks like to shoot automags is exactly because they are so different than modern guns. thats the reason why they are fun, and interesting, and great guns to play and tinker with. the point is that they don't compete with modern guns, and thats why they are fun.

can you compete with a mag and win? of course
are mags super fun? of course
are there objectively better guns than mags? of course

so what?

people so often get confused between objective reality, and subjective preference. "i choose this because i like it therefore it must be the best objectively" nope, thats not how it works.

[BiNumber3]

I don't think anyone necessarily thinks Mags are unbeatable by current tech, but for the same reason some people love old cars, we happen to love mags. I intend to get an old Corvette Stingray and Datsun 240 some day, as fun cars to tinker with and cruise around with.

Plus, the fact that they have held up so well, and can still compete to an extent, is nothing to scoff at imo.

[boo]

people so often get confused between objective reality, and subjective preference. "i choose this because i like it therefore it must be the best objectively" nope, thats not how it works.

This last line pretty much sums up this thread. People are taking the PTP 2k9 micromag hate and applying it to when PTP had some very successful products years and years ago.

It's some hilarious logic because the 2k9 was such a small niche product numbering in the low hundreds and most of the people hating never even bought one before they found out about the issues.

Paintball fanboys love to *****, especially about stuff they don't own, can't afford (checks bank account, this gun is **** because it costs $xxxx), or that one time a company did something bad when 99% of the time they got it right. They're always the first ones to tell a company what it should make and the last to buy when they make it.

Its the same people arguing why it would make good business sense for AGD to come out with a new niche production marker, then when AGD does they will ***** about it and go out of their way to ruin AGD's reputation.

Add another dimension to that, when some small time airsmith screws up they will defend them til the point they take everyone's money and disappear. And the community will still resell that airsmiths products and worship the stuff with greatness.

Catering to fanboys is enough to make a marketing persons head explode, and companies big and small have all learned to stop doing it.

[going_home]

This last line pretty much sums up this thread. People are taking the PTP 2k9 micromag hate and applying it to when PTP had some very successful products years and years ago.

It's some hilarious logic because the 2k9 was such a small niche product numbering in the low hundreds and most of the people hating never even bought one before they found out about the issues.


Ok for arguments sake I'll give you the 2k9 ridiculousness.

But then they went right to customcockers and made the same mess again with a cocker.

The PTP legacy is summed up by their last two fumbled projects.

They are without a doubt the Smart Parts of the cocker and mag universe.

If we are in disagreement on this, so be it.


:goodnight:

[luke]

What happened with the Cockers?

[boo]

They released a pump cocker with questionable ano and an integrated cram n jam that broke.

Both the 2k9 and that cocker tried to be innovative by incorporating a new idea. But at the end of the day with small volume runs you really shouldn't try innovating anything because you can't test and qa it properly.

I think back to the Evo automag body thread when a bunch of people were recommending to change the detents. I don't think people realize how risky it is to change even little details on proven designs. And they definitely don't think of the consequences when you're not a major name player.

This is why you won't see any new designs from smaller players. The closest the industry got was the J4 torque.

I'm not trying to defend or make excuses for PTP, I'm just pointing out a would be lesson for anyone that thinks making custom paintball parts or markers is easy.

[luke]

Both the 2k9 and that cocker tried to be innovative by incorporating a new idea. But at the end of the day with small volume runs you really shouldn't try innovating anything because you can't test and qa it properly.

In regard to the MM2K9, trying to be innovative and incorporating a new idea had nothing to do with what sank that ship.

[BiNumber3]

Yea, overall the design and ideas with the mm2k9 worked, they just made machining errors it sounds like, and assumed aluminum could handle the hammering of the bolt (I read the old threads, and it was recommended by members that the AL could do it, and it was accepted by most it seems, only in hindsight did people realize that there was a good reason AGD used steel).

[going_home]

They released a pump cocker with questionable ano and an integrated cram n jam that broke.


That wasn't the worst, again poor machining, no meat left in the feedneck area, you could see the shaft of the feedneck.
If my memory serves me right.....

[luke]

I think back to the Evo automag body thread when a bunch of people were recommending to change the detents. I don't think people realize how risky it is to change even little details on proven designs.

I completely disagree with this thinking, how exactly is changing detents a risk? Were talking about a doohickey that keeps a paintball from rolling down the barrel. There are many ways to to solve this problem and the engineering behind achieving the goal is not rocket science. :)

[Nobody]

Plus, with the movable breech of the 2K9, the standard PTP detent wouldn't have worked anyway. It is a poor excuse to blame the masses for failure to do some math on placement of a detent of YOUR PRODUCT. The masses didn't mill the guns, PTP did... Or is that an innovation? You screw up, but blame the people that were buying your products?

[going_home]

I completely disagree with this thinking, how exactly is changing detents a risk? Were talking about a doohickey that keeps a paintball from rolling down the barrel. There are many ways to to solve this problem and the engineering behind achieving the goal is not rocket science. :)

He's thinking so far outside the box, that you can't find the box any more.

Good job.

;)

[boo]

Hypothetical scenario. The machinist designs new detents in a new body. Everything is to spec, they run a couple hundred balls through, everything checks out and it goes to production.

Owners get the markers, get all the parts, maybe get some custom milling done on the frame to better blend with the body, then dump a couple hundred into an ano complex and unique enough that it is impossible to get anything rematched.

Immediately, after long term use the detents are failing. Maybe pieces are getting ripped out and shooting out the barrel. Maybe they have rollouts because the machinist didn't test enough variation in the paint. But it's determined the machinist's design is flawed. Either by placement or because they are drilled/milled too deep.

So what is the machinist responsible for? The cost of the body or the whole project?

Most of the time this doesn't happen, but PTP is not the only one to screw up a small volume production run.

I'm by no means defending them, they got themselves their reputation because they played fast and loose with the risk, and weren't anywhere near solvent enough to pay to fix it.

[Nobody]

Who designed it, is at fault. They failed to check the numbers. They cailed to check on the first body milled to make sure that it is within spec. The machinist is only responsible for his job. The designer is reaponsible for listening to what possible additions the people BUYING THEM are asking for. It is not the people's fault for wanting something that the deaig er can not do. The deaigner ahould know hos or her own's capabilities in the design. If they don't know how to, then either figure it out or ask someone who has been there before them for help. It is that simple.

But more so, is not PTP's fault at the design. I actually like the looks of the 2K9. It had potential. Even the flawed velocity issues were something not seen before. Yet, how they failed to address the failed bodies, how people did not get reimbursement for bodies undelivered, or how people were promised on having things made right & nothing being done for YEARS. That is the problem.

You want innovation, try promising and delivering on a product. So the past accomplishment does nothing in bringing new people to the fold. No one buys a new car(say a Ford) cause 15 years ago, they did the Ford GT and that was good. No, its called "what jave you done for me lately". That is how you grow, how you stay relevant, how you stay in business. You should never look to the past, when you should be looking to the future.

[boo]

Who designed it, is at fault.

It's obvious who's at fault, but what are they responsible for? Replacing the body, refunding the money, or paying to redo the run correctly and paying for the ano again?

That's the debatable question, because with any of those options there are still going to be unhappy people.

People always ***** about the Empire monopoly, but they have the best customer service in the industry.

That's the difference, and that's why from a business standpoint it doesn't make sense to be a niche manufacturer. You don't have the resources to make it right when something goes wrong. So you either go small, play it safe and just put a new spin on proven designs. Or you go big, do something new, and eventually the gambling catches up with you. You either go into debt making it right or you give up and disappear. Or worse, go double or nothing and burn twice as many people.

Intentions are always good, and I tip my hat to the people that love the sport or the products so much they stick their neck out there. But, when stuff goes wrong I'll probably be among the mob that says "you shoulda known better".

It's business 101, a company should be judged not on what they do right, but when they do something wrong how they fix it. On the 2k9 PTP failed miserably. But over their many years they would of had to have other mistakes that we don't remember anymore. Because in their heyday they had the resources to make it right.

I think your missing the point of what I'm arguing, I'm not defensing PTP, I'm saying companies need to know how much to bite off before they chew.

If anything I respect AGD more because they haven't come out with a new revolutionary design for a new marker. With their current resources it would be a disaster they couldn't fix. They are reputable and business savvy enough to know not to take that jump.

[tucson.az.jbreen]

I have been searching for something better than the kingmann spider elbow. Hope the armson pro is it. Do you know if the agd minimag power feed will do best with 1" or with 7/8ths?

[zondo]

I have been searching for something better than the kingmann spider elbow. Hope the armson pro is it. Do you know if the agd minimag power feed will do best with 1" or with 7/8ths?

I think you want the 7/8" to 1" elbow for automag powerfeeds.

[going_home]

https://www.pythonpaintball.com/

[tucson.az.jbreen]

https://www.pythonpaintball.com/

Hot damn!

Thanks boss.

What do you think of that barrel kit they make?



Edit: could automag bodies be produced of glass fiber? dye uses the technology to make barrels that look insane. they describe it as being similar to making carbon fibre barrels.

[going_home]

Never tried their barrel kit.

XMTerror made some carbon fiber bodies, the breach was still aluminum to house the feedneck and ring/c-clip.

[Walker]

What do you think of that barrel kit they make?

I use one for Cocker and A5 threaded guns. I like it.... TechT markets the same kit...


Walker