On/Off Sticking

[some_guy]

So, building my first automag, and running into a bit of an issue. It's got a classic valve. It wasn't firing right, so I took it apart, cleaned it, re-lubed. Still wasn't working right, so I started replacing orings. Now, it will fire once, and it appears that the on/off pin is sticking (the trigger pin from the sear is not returning). It is re-cocking however. With the pin stuck back like this, sometimes it might leak a little, or giving it a light tap with the trigger will cause it to fire again. And sometimes, it will fire once on trigger pull and once on trigger release. When it's stuck, I can de-gas the marker and re-air it up, and it resets fine.

Anyone have any advice on how to pursue this issue? I'm using an automag parts kit for the orings, but it might be older, and most of the orings are pretty firm, even after oiling (I'm wondering if trying a new one directly from agd may help). My focus has mainly been around the on/off assembly, but could I be looking in the wrong place?

[vintage]

sounds like a slow recharge, what input pressure are you getting from the tank?

[BiNumber3]

I was thinking a possible over-tightened thumbscrew too.

[blackdeath1k]

First automag? Input pressure is my first thought. Although they should cycle below 800psi. I never had any luck at all with them firing right below 850. And they didn't cycle right from a little over 700 and down.

[some_guy]

Thanks for the replies- Input pressure from two different tanks, one is 750ish, the other is 800 (and both are not having issues on other markers).

As for the thumbscrew, I had just hand tightened it in, but will double check it this evening.

[some_guy]

Just saw the reply from blackdeath1k as well- I'll double check my other tanks tonight too and see if I can find one that's outputting at around 850 or so.

[blackdeath1k]

Mags like higher pressures. 850 is a reliable running pressure. If you have issues at 850. Then you have a marker issue.

[some_guy]

Just checked with two tanks, one at about 800 and one at about 850, and the issue persists. Also pulled out the regulator piston, cleaned the chamber, changed the oring, re-oiled, and the problem persists as well. Tried with backing out the thumbscrew a couple of turns as well, and the issue persists. Any ideas on what to check next?

[vintage]

try turning your velocity up, also make sure your actually getting 850 to the marker somehow.

[vintage]

also make sure your pin is absolutely clean. I've had problems with old o rings leaving residue on the pins.

[some_guy]

With how my reg tester is set up, it's getting the actual psi at the tail end of the foregrip, that's the best I can test at the moment. Also, the pin is clean- before I had posted, I scrubbed it good as it was binding from residue. But, issue is still there :(

[blackdeath1k]

I may have overlooked it. But have you put a full Oring rebuild kit in it? As they age they get stiff. That could cause drag as well.

[some_guy]

Yep, have replaced every oring I can find. Note, I have NOT touched the large screw in the washer (I seem to remember in a video them saying not to touch that), but who knows, could've been messed with before I got it. I'm wondering if the o-ring kit I got has been sitting on a shelf for the past decade+ and dried out too much. The orings are noticeably stiffer than the ones I'm replacing.

[BiNumber3]

What kind of body is this installed on?

[some_guy]

Gearheadz Helios body

[Cyco-Dude]

level 7 or level 10 bolt? if it's a level 7, try using a longer power tube spacer. if it's a level 10, try putting the carrier o-ring into the next size larger carrier.

since you got a rebuild kit, i'm assuming you're using a new gold bolt spring?


Gearheadz Helios body
double-check that the detent is not screwed in too far. in fact, just take it out and re-test.

[some_guy]

It's a level 7. Unfortunately, don't have any other powertube spacers to try as of now. It is the newer gold bolt spring, and removed the detent (issue happens with or without detent, and with ether new or original spring.

I just noticed though, that I can press the trigger pin with an allen key, and it still fires (and if I fire it multiple times, the trigger pin returns to different places, mostly out of reach of the trigger). It seems like the on/off pin is not pushing down enough to return the trigger pin to proper resting position.

[Cyco-Dude]

It's a level 7. Unfortunately, don't have any other powertube spacers to try as of now. It is the newer gold bolt spring, and removed the detent (issue happens with or without detent, and with ether new or original spring.

I just noticed though, that I can press the trigger pin with an allen key, and it still fires (and if I fire it multiple times, the trigger pin returns to different places, mostly out of reach of the trigger). It seems like the on/off pin is not pushing down enough to return the trigger pin to proper resting position.
what frame does the gun have? how long is the trigger rod from the end of the rod to the back of the clevis? you'll need some calipers to measure it. what size power tube spacer does it have now?

[blackdeath1k]

Oh! Trigger rod was an issue when I bought the wife's marker. Is was sold to me in "working order". Wouldn't cycle. Finally was told to check lingth. Don't remember how long it was. But it was never going to cycle properly. Filed it to .750 and it cycles perfect.

[BigEvil]

Rebuild the on off with fresh orings and then go from there

[some_guy]

To answer the past few questions, it's got an intelliframe. I can check the length of the trigger rod and the spacer size later this evening. The trigger rod is a good thought, but I don't suspect it as here's a bit more history on the issue- When I initially built this marker, it actually fired fine (or appeared to at least). It would fire and re-cock just fine. This was with all the same parts, and I hadn't touched the valve at all. So, I went to put paint in it, and when pulled the trigger, it would multi/rapid shot. With each trigger pull you'd get a few balls within a second and some would break in the barrel, etc. When I cleaned the marker up, I noticed that when a shot was fired, if I held the trigger, there was a light leak coming down the barrel. At this point, I started into the whole "fix it" routine, which started with cleaning and re-oiling everything, and when that didn't work, it led me to starting to swap rings, which ended up with where I am now.

So, with all that being said, and with everything that's been tested and checked up to this point, I'm thinking that BigEvil might have the right idea of rebuilding the on/off. However, all of the orings I have of the type and size for an automag are from that same original kit (and yes, I've tried different ones within the kit). I've been a bit suspect of the oring kit from the start, so I'm thinking to try ordering one directly from AGD. The first kit is an official AGD one, but it might be older, and was ordered from somewhere else. Who knows, it could have been sitting on a shelf for the last 15 years leaving the orings less than ideal?

[BiNumber3]

I probably have O-rings at least that old from AGD, that still look fresh:)
The multi-shooting sounds like it was due to a flipped on/off pin, but if it's no longer doing that, you probably put it in right.

Can you take a picture of the on/off, and maybe the rest of the mag as well for us?

[Cyco-Dude]

To answer the past few questions, it's got an intelliframe. I can check the length of the trigger rod and the spacer size later this evening. The trigger rod is a good thought, but I don't suspect it as here's a bit more history on the issue- When I initially built this marker, it actually fired fine (or appeared to at least). It would fire and re-cock just fine. This was with all the same parts, and I hadn't touched the valve at all. So, I went to put paint in it, and when pulled the trigger, it would multi/rapid shot. With each trigger pull you'd get a few balls within a second and some would break in the barrel, etc. When I cleaned the marker up, I noticed that when a shot was fired, if I held the trigger, there was a light leak coming down the barrel. At this point, I started into the whole "fix it" routine, which started with cleaning and re-oiling everything, and when that didn't work, it led me to starting to swap rings, which ended up with where I am now.

So, with all that being said, and with everything that's been tested and checked up to this point, I'm thinking that BigEvil might have the right idea of rebuilding the on/off. However, all of the orings I have of the type and size for an automag are from that same original kit (and yes, I've tried different ones within the kit). I've been a bit suspect of the oring kit from the start, so I'm thinking to try ordering one directly from AGD. The first kit is an official AGD one, but it might be older, and was ordered from somewhere else. Who knows, it could have been sitting on a shelf for the last 15 years leaving the orings less than ideal?
yeah, i'd take another look at the on/off top o-rings for sure...

[some_guy]

I just went ahead a did quick videos of my build and the resulting problem. Sorry about the quality, and I stutter like an idiot and mis-name parts when I'm recording... But, should be good enough to see what's going on.

Build video:
https://youtu.be/owOCrbjehiY

Shooting video:
https://youtu.be/kwrVs8HcpZU

Any comments welcome, thanks!

[some_guy]

Oh, and I say it in the video, but the trigger rod is about 1.93" inches in length, although that may be too short and causing some of the issue as well...

[Cyco-Dude]

Oh, and I say it in the video, but the trigger rod is about 1.93" inches in length, although that may be too short and causing some of the issue as well...
that's too short; it should be 1.985" or thereabouts.

[BiNumber3]

Have you tried replacing your cat? (j/k:P)

[athomas]

The fact that the trigger rod is stopping at different distances indicates that there are some sticking issues. It could be from having a powertube spacer that is too short, or a leaking top on-off oring, or a combination of both. A leak out the front while you hold the trigger would indicate a leaking on-off oring.

Once you get the sticking issue solved, you can adjust your trigger rod to the proper distance. The length indicated above is a good place to start. Once the gun cycles properly without sticking, you should adjust the trigger rod length so that there is a slight gap between the back of the trigger and the front of the trigger rod with the trigger held against the safety while the valve has air.

[some_guy]

Tried to swap the cat for a better model, but they wouldn't take him back. Said something about user error due to him being too fat.

So, I just looked at the trigger rod- Turns out, I can spin it with my hands. Like, easily... I had kind of been ignoring it up until now as in one of the AGD videos I saw, they said not to adjust it. But, I bumped it out to 1.985 as stated by Cyco-Dude, and it appears to be firing properly now. Just did about 15 dry fire shots, and they all sounded pretty similar. Also, the trigger rod was returning out back to where it should be on each shot- the on/off pin doesn't appear to be sticking anymore.

It'll be this weekend before I can try putting paint through it, but so far, this is the best it's been working (and it no longer leaks when I hold the trigger due to the oring replacement, which is why I started messing with it in the first place...). I'll update when I can see how it's shooting, and get some locktite on the trigger rod when it's adjusted and shooting properly.

Thank you all very much for your help, I greatly appreciate it. There was a lot of great advice in this thread, and I couldn't have figured this one out on my own. And, I've learned quite a bit about automags in the process, which is why I started this project to begin with :)

[BiNumber3]

Hmm, yea normally the pin is pretty darn tight (I'd usually heat it up a bit and really grip tight with flat pliers in order to move it), someone probably loosened it up. You can put some Teflon tape on it for now if you don't want to locktite it right away.

[fhawkeye]

Hmm, yea normally the pin is pretty darn tight (I'd usually heat it up a bit and really grip tight with flat pliers in order to move it), someone probably loosened it up. You can put some Teflon tape on it for now if you don't want to locktite it right away.

I've had this problem before what I did is use blue loctite so it grips but is still adjustable with some pliers. The threads for the rod to the sear sometimes just aren't tight enough.

[some_guy]

Well, got to take this out this weekend, and got to put a little paint through it. It shot great. Almost all shots were +/- 2.5 fps, except for a few that were dropping below 200, but I believe those were double feeds. I'm using a rotor, and the detent catches the balls, but it takes barely any force to push them past (I can stack two in the feedneck, and push on the top one, and if the angle is right, it will push the ball in the breach past the detent). This body takes autococker detents, so putting in one of the Check-It detents and adjusting it should hopefully fix that problem (these are adjustable, and have fixed detent spacing issues in autocockers for me before. Expensive, but well worth the money!).

Thanks again!

[blackdeath1k]

Good to hear. Always depressing when a mag isn't working right.