1100 PSI into X Valve- no rapidfire?

[wjesse]

Hi All,

This is my first post so please be patient. I have had a Minimag since it was new in 1995. Recently I dropped in an X valve and put it on a Ninja SHP regulator to hopefully get the rapid fire bounce out of it. It bounces, but no rapid fire. I am thinking of asking Ninja to build me a 1400 PST output reg to try to get this thing ripping. Is that a good idea? Or, should I bag the idea of going RT and try my luck with ULT instead. My goal is to duke it out with modern markers but do it with a 21 year old relic! I hope this all made sense. Any advice- especially if you have had this issue, is greatly appreciated.

Best,

Jesse

[nak81783]

Run air line directly to valve. Might have to change on/off pin length. Might have to change trigger rod length. I think it's harder to RT with a normal sear.

Unsolicited opinion: Don't RT. A semi Automag is plenty competitive as is.

[captian pinky]

oil it before every day of play just a couple of drops and shoot it. There is a break in period for the orings.

The pin length should be fine from the factory and 1,100psi is more than enough. just go and play with it.

[wjesse]

Thanks for the tips. Things I have already tried already are changing the length of the trigger rod, changing out the sear (to a newer stock one), buying a shorter on/off stem (.740) from AGD on swapping it out, shimming the level 10 (with 5 shims it rapid fires sporadically, but not in a good way), and shooting it about 800 times with lots of oil.

If there won't rapid fire right away do they sometimes break in and slowly start to rapid fire once the o-rings are settled in? Would even higher pressure get it going sooner?

I am leaning toward a ULE trigger at this point anyways. But, I would love to know why I can't get the RT out of it in the meantime.

Thanks
Jesse

[blackdeath1k]

My classic RT has ran everything bone stock except the trigger frame and never had an issue with that since the late 90s. 0.744 on off pin has given plenty of RT effect with an incoming pressure of 950psi. Only time I've noticed a rt issue is if I discover the bolt/valve alignment is a hair off causing drag. I've also never wanted runaway rt. I prefer actual control. As far as competing with modern markers. That's more in the player than marker. Firing speed just gives you prestige from the inexperienced players off the field.

[wjesse]

So I went ahead and ordered the ULT kit tonight. I thought "full auto" would be fun, but it's not very practical. I'm excited to see if I like this any more.

Since the ULT doesn't "bounce", does it matter that I'm running 1100 psi anymore, does that benefit anything else?

Thanks

[Nobody]

Damn, you guys are missing the obvious....

Single trigger frames are harder to sweet spot, i.e. get that bounce trigger; than a double trigger. Its all a matter of leverage. You can play with the on/off pin length. Shorter will get more reactivity. I find a .720 pin to be fine for my guns and tanks.

You do not need to change the trigger rod length. It should be a credit card length away from the back of the trigger.

[wjesse]

I thought the same thing but I pressed that trigger every way I could imagine and never once got a hint of more than one shot. Maybe I should file my on off pin down more? Did you use that .720 pin on a standard mag or was it an RT?

[Nobody]

The pin is for my Xvalve & Emag valve.

Use a set of digital calipers and do small increments when taking it down. Even shortening it, then putting it in the gun and test firing it and see what you got.

[blackdeath1k]

Ha-ha nobody! To true. The single trigger frame murders the bounce. Wasn't even thinking about that since autocockers are the only markers I ever use with a single trigger.

[wjesse]

Is there a grip that will accept my rosewood handles with a double trigger that still has a trigger guard?

[Nobody]

Is there a grip that will accept my rosewood handles with a double trigger that still has a trigger guard?

Negative.

[wjesse]

I just bought and installed the Ultra Light Trigger. The trigger feels a little lighter but it still has the reactive push back- I thought that went away with this mod? It also chuffs way more- is that normal or can that be adjusted out through shims or something? Does anyone sell a pre-modded drilled sear for a Minimag? I heard that can help with chuffing.

What I really want is the rapid fire- has anyone gotten this reliably working with the ULT installed?

Thanks!

[blackdeath1k]

The chuffing is generally from short stroking the trigger. That is self inflicted. Unless the ult isn't tuned right. As far as reactive rapid fire. I recommend a 2 finger trigger. I frame or one of the many non agd 2 finger trigger frames.

[wjesse]

I bought a double trigger with a cut carbon fiber stock mag frame from eBay and should be getting it any day now.

If that doesn't work, is there a chance that I still need more than 1100 psi to rapid fire this? I see minimags online that rail on a single trigger?

[wjesse]

As luck would have it the double trigger arrived tonight. I fired it up and... no dice. The best I can get is a lethargic double fire. No rapid fire with or without the ULE on/off.

So far I have spent a small fortune on the x valve, tank and various parts. I am discouraged that I somehow got a dud mag. I can still have fun with it but I was hoping $500 would have gotten more than a lighter trigger pull.

Any additional advice from someone who has experience with a similar setup is much appreciated :-)

[Rambo]

Ok, two things, I think to get a fast valve recharge you need to have a good volume of air going through it. Maybe the Asa can't deliver enough at that pressure.

Second, if you're doing 1100 psi the that built in reg piston is really gonna be moving, since your velocity nut is gonna be all the way back. I was having slow recharge until I put a few drops of oil directly into that little hole the pin comes out of when you unscrew the back, then shoot it like 30 times, should speed up.

If you're getting inconsistent velocities then I'd say it's the reg, that power tube needs a certain amount of time to charge up. maybe lower pressure would actually be better because the regulator piston has to move less, I think there's a balance.

I also kinda think trying one of the heavier springs might speed things up, but I am still just figuring out how the level 10 works and tuning this puppy.

[wjesse]

Thank you for your input. I do feel like the 850 psi tank shoots smoother with the ule on/off valve installed.

I have tried three different ASA valves but it doesn't seem to make a difference.

I will try lubing the daylight out if this thing tomorrow. I haven't thought about the back of the valve yet.

Tonight I spent my time engineering a trigger guard from a proto matrix into the mag. I think it turned out pretty nice!http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160712/cfd4c5a0c3732332e69bd570811cf7ed.jpg

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[wjesse]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160712/f9af3e6947f5dde78925c2e52505723f.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160712/7ca095814dbcb61c5521006853797d8d.jpg

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[athomas]

You shouldn't need any shims installed in your level 10. If you do, then it isn't tuned correctly and will slow down your action. This drastically affects your ability to be reactive.

[Rambo]

This guy seems to be the expert in rapidfire automags, maybe you can glean some info from him. Maybe you already read his site.


http://www.zakvetter.com/pages/paintballs/automag_info/rapidfire/what_is_needed.html (http://www.zakvetter.com/pages/paintballs/automag_info/rapidfire/what_is_needed.html)

I do think that it requires a pretty high output regulator to achieve the rapid recharge that is necessary, more so than a ton of pressure. But I'd exhaust all of your other options before investing in that.

Basically the increased pressure will increase the trigger pull but should also increase the recharge rate, but if your tank regulator is too slow then the recharge will be slow because your gun is kinda waiting on that pressure to return to 1100 psi or whatever before its going to allow you to fire again.

[wjesse]

Thanks. I did check out his site and tried to email him but the email kicked back.

I currently have no shims in the power tube.

I have an output gauge that reads 1100 pretty solid while I shoot. My cheap 850 reg drops noticeably so I can tell the SHP one is more solid by comparison.

The only thing left I can think of is trying to find a way I can get higher than 1100psi in there. Ninja can make a reg up to 3000 but they are not adjustable and cost $100. I thought of having them set one at 1200 for me to try but I hate to waste more money if I'm wrong.

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[Rambo]

I have kind of a vested interest in seeing your thing work because I'm going in a similar direction.

Do you think you might have a kink in your hoseline, I see it's like snaking back and forth. If the reg pressure is not dropping when you fire it then that leads me to believe the air just isn't flowin into the powertube fast enough.

I feel like you're probably doing a lot of work for this but I wonder if you could just experiment by attaching the bottle directly and bypassing that gasthru grip thing.


But yeah I also believe that reg needs to be lubed the hell out of because it won't pop your trigger back out until it moves forward and back.

[Rambo]

Yeah, the more I look at it the more I'm like, you've got 3 90 degree bends, each one is going to reduce the diameter of the hose, by the time the air gets to your gun it's prob like sub 800 psi even though your reg is telling you it's 1100.

[wjesse]

I did connect the tank directly to the valve with just the 6" line on it and the ASA. No real difference was noticed

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[Rambo]

Hmmm, dang, running out of ideas here. I guess if you've exhausted all the other possibilities, it sounds like the adjustable regs have better flow rates, you can keep the tank and just install a new reg which would be only $50-ish.

According to that guy I mentioned, these are the best regs, not sure how many they still make though:

Air America Apocalypse Regulator
Air America Armageddon Regulator
AGD Flatline Regulator (4500psi series)
CenterFlag DynaFlow Regulator
CenterFlag 4CE Preset Regulator
Nitro Duck I-Reg Preset Regulator
Smart Parts Max-Flo inline and 2nd Gen Manifold Regulator

[Nobody]

Ok, hold up. Just because a gun does something at 1 pressure doesnt mean that doubling the pressure would get you better results.

You do not need any more pressure than you already have. Hell, i can get reactiveness off 800psi. I am of the minority that is against 4 digit pressures into the gun.

Now, look at what you have & compare it what other people are using when getting near runaway triggers. The CF frame can flex more in the trigger which could be absording some of the bounce. You could also have, no offense fat fingers. Trigger hygiene is very important for this. You do need to hold it a certain way. I know that is what i need to do with my m90 frame and Emag. I don't know.

So, stop buying this and that and do small incremental changes. Get the gun shooting reliably, then start messing with it. Hell, for all you know, you could have a bad valve that just won't do that.

[Rambo]

Yeah, seems like you could just find somebody on the paintball field with a pimped out tank and ask them if you could try a couple of shots through it before spending more money.

[sjrtk]

Like Nobody said relax with everything your trying. Run a piece of macro line from the ASA straight to the valve. Running a shorter on/off pin speeds the RT effect up. Running 1k+ line pressure to the valve seems to be a waste of time to me. I have massive RT effect from ALL of my RT valves at 850 PSI straight to the valves running a 712 Emag pin and intelliframes or my logic UMF. All together I have $4 tied up in each valve I want to RT.

[wjesse]

I have run the line directly into the valve from the ASA with no change.

Right now I am waiting for a new trigger sear to arrive since mine is the old style that is triangle shaped from the 90's. I'm hoping that might help.

It's not that I don't have a reactive trigger- it pushes back. Just not enough to make it fire again.

If the sear doesn't help then I am probably going to give up on rapid fire and settle for a sear mod from Luke's Customs paired with the ULE trigger.

I think I have exhausted every other avenue I can imagine besides investing in another higher pressure tank.

My ultimate goal is to get this all tuned in by the 24 hours game at KC Crusaders in late August.

[Nobody]

Well, the trigger pushing back is a good indicator. As long as you have the "credit card" space between the sear rod and trigger when aired up, then the trigger is properly set up. I don't think the sear really matters much as long as it is properly spaced.

The biggest problem you have is the insistence on the single trigger frame and trying to get it to bounce like many other people. The biggest advantage of the double trigger is leverage and a linger pull. W8th double triggers, you can almost hold the trigger in the best spot where it it will fire, but reset itself. That is the reactive trigger and that skill does take practice. It is not generally something that happens when you pick up a new gun. Most of the people you see do what you are attempting to do, all have double triggers of some sort.

[BigEvil]

That aftermarket trigger could be the problem too... Also you are using a classic rail with a classic sear... I have found they never RT very well... make sure the sear axle pin is clean and smooth.

[wjesse]

I did install a double trigger (pics are earlier in this thread). I have 1 mm of space behind it and the sear rod. I have polished the sear and the sear axle to shine. I have emptied a tank of air trying to finesse the trigger but never get more than a single shot. It needs more bounce.

Is it possible to just replace the sear and the rail without a new body?

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[Laku]

Is it possible to just replace the sear and the rail without a new body?

Definitely. Classic RT is the only exception where you can only use parts that were made for it (and the other way round).

[Mueller]

I'm still learning AGD myself but would definitely agree it's not an air issue, a ninja SHP1100 should make it sing.

My stock on/off xvalve needed 1.5 tanks of shots + lots of oil to break in before it would RT well, now it's controllable but a hot trigger using a SHP1100 reg. Sweet spot for me is bottom edge of trigger, where the bounce pressure can exert most leverage pushing back. I tried to "find the spot" like you.... but once it started going it was easy & obvious

I have a ULT trigger xvalve too, pretty broken in, that is fairly reactive despite my reading the effect diminishes on the ULT. Still it's less than the stock...

ALso have an emag (very short pin) valve that at 1100psi immediately goes scarface / early metallica drum solo / jackhammer breaking up an 8" concrete block outside on an early sunday morning after a long night of Goldschlager and pizza puffs. Too much RT, can't afford to shoot paint that fast.

[rawbutter]

This might seem like a dumb question, but do you know for sure that you're putting 1100 psi into the valve? I know I once shimmed a tank regulator to put out more psi, and I didn't get my bounce....but then when re-reading the instructions I realized that I had adjusted the regulator wrong. (I took a shim out instead of putting one in....or something like that.) Once I got the shims right, I was also able to get reliable bounce with 850 psi output and a slightly shorter pin.

If you're certain you have the right psi coming out of the tank, then tell us more about your x-valve. Was it new? Used? Have the o-rings been changed recently? I know you said you put 800 shots into it, but my x-valve required a few thousand shots before it started RTing properly. So maybe you just need more break-in time.

If that fails, you could consider sending the valve off to someone else to inspect/trouble-shoot. Maybe someone with more experience will notice something with the valve in hand that you've missed.

And if all else fails, I'll second the notion of skipping the RT altogether. I know it's fun, but it's also overkill most of the time, and some fields don't even allow it. A well-tuned marker with a ULT on/off is more than enough in 95% of situations you'll ever encounter.

[wjesse]

Thanks for the reply. These are great questions.

I have a PSI gauge inline that reads 1100 with the SHP and only 800 with my other tank. I'm pretty confident it is accurate.

I bought the X valve used off ebay. I emailed the seller about no rapid fire and he said it worked great for him.

I will be taking it to the field this weekend to break it in a bit more. I'm hoping someone there can look at it too.

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[wjesse]

I installed my new sear, tuned the level 10 bolt, swapped the gold spring for the red one, cranked up the velocity, lubed the hell out of it and... rapid fire ACHIEVED!!!

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[rawbutter]

I installed my new sear, tuned the level 10 bolt, swapped the gold spring for the red one, cranked up the velocity, lubed the hell out of it and... rapid fire ACHIEVED!!!

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So.... What finally did the trick? Or did you do everything all at once?

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[wjesse]

I think it just needed to be broken in more. It started to bounce enough for a quick double shot and then slowly became bouncy enough for strings of shots.

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[Paintballnut777]

....You know I have the same issue.... I bought my RT ULE mag from AGD about 2 years ago and thought it would rt right out of the box, but could never get it too. I also know I don't even have a case of paint in it because of tinkering around with it from getting it anywhere from not shooting to hold the trigger down and have full auto with no bounce. Write now I have it shooting good for semi. I'm going to use it for a while when I play to see if I can break in the orings. I also have a ULT in it which agitates me trying to sweet spot the tuning. One shim too many or too little and it is either full auto with no bounce or it wont shoot.

[waycrazy]

I talked to ya at the 24 hr game . Nice looking mag with the old school touch . Did you ever get it to work right?

[Sandman]

Some simple notes:
A good bolt and sear match should ultimately polish the bolt edge to a mirror finish.
Standard mag rail and sears are much sloppier than the pinned sears and rails from the RT styles. Potential issues can arise.
Mixing old classic rails, sears and bodies with newer mag parts is not always successful.
Bounce or rapid firing by itself in technical standards of the gun, is considered a malfunction.:p
Creating mechanical machine-gun monsters out of Mags is an absolute requirement!