Where did AGD go wrong?

[Nobody]

That is a loaded statement, but so where, no what caused AGD to loose marketshare or the masses. As we all know, a well tuned L10 will not chop paint unless the paint is horrible. In the speed game, the RT and subsequent ReTro/Emag/Xvalave all can achieve that same level of performance. So that is not a problem in comparison to other comparable guns of the era.

If you look at the history from the start of AGD to about 2000, basically after wide acceptance of electros on the top levels of professional play and then filtering down to the everyday players, AGD really began to loose people, loose marketshare and loose out on nearly everything. Yet by 2000, you had AGD mags not chopping paint, an electro versions and maybe other innovations that we all know. Yet, there was a decline in use and visibility. Yes, a lot of that has to do with the fickle nature of paintballers and the disposable cash era, which some companies were issuing guns/models every 2-3 years.

So i really want to know what the community thinks. I have my own ideas, but i do need more sources than myself. This is also not an admonishing of AGD, more so trying figure out the point where it happened. So please, indulge me in this. I do want to see what everyone thinks.

[Fred]

AGD never loosed anyone. Lost maybe.

Personally, I think it's because there was ZERO marketing hype. There was a stigma when I started playing that somehow AutoCockers shot farther than AutoMags... That was 1999.

Aside from the stray body change, Classic to Minimag, the evolution to the Classic RT body, and then finally to aluminum and the slugs in the mid aughts, the design never got sexy. Just a tube, that worked.

Still haven't seen anyone do a re-skinned valve that isn't a tube.

[alpha_q_up23]

Don't forget being banned in tournament play due to not being able to cap the rt, plus I don't think companies who make new electronic markers every year would like to see a team of 20 year old mags out shoot their newest marker

[Warwitch]

When you make stuff to last and dont care about candy coating your image this is what you get. A loyal following of die-hard fans. AGD didnt 'go wrong'.

[BigEvil]

http://t13.deviantart.net/nV_BVFVh0c4Xdm5oeIJcLvv_dQs=/300x200/filters:fixed_height(100,100):origin()/pre05/4d09/th/pre/i/2016/259/a/0/south_park____memberberries__xx_01__by_eladministr ador-dahuvis.png

[going_home]

The point where it went from incline to decline was with the c&d from smart parts.

The moustache behind the innovation lost interest when the deck became stacked.

That's not to say innovation couldn't start back up again.

What Tim is doing is a great start.



;)

[JKR]

AGD didn't sell out, basically. In an era of rushing to the lowest common denominator with cheap electros made in China, AGD continued on its path of making quality, American made markers. The single greatest thing that killed AGD's electro and high end development was Smart Parts. The resulting lack of high-end markers from AGD undoubtedly took some wind out of the sails of the entire company so they fell back, regrouped and marketed to a niche that other manufacturers tended to run from.

Although the industry is in regression as far as sales go, I believe there is a strong and growing interest in quality paintguns. This obviously works to AGD's favor. Combined with a more aggressive marketing and sales campaign, I see AGD remaining viable and strong for a small, niche manufacturer for a long time to come.

[BigEvil]

Ive seen two things,

#1 - they move from steel to aluminum was too slow

#2 - Dealers abandoned them right around that time for reasons unknown to me.

[blackdeath1k]

Marketing,
Weight,
Tournament banning,
MARKETING!!!!!

And now expense plays a factor.

Back in the day before electros you had the mag and cocker. Mag was reliable but boring. Cocker was cool but finicky. I've owned a mag since 94ish. By 99 the mag was basically forgotten by the masses. Electros had taken over along with the cool back block of an autococker still being around. Mags have no gimmick. And basically no marketing.

I've recently bought 2 geo3s. One for me and one for my wife. Weight was the factor. I still own my classic RT hat I've had forever. But the weight finally got to me. My shoulder is junk. I started pricing what it would cost for a ule mag with xvalve. Compared that to a used geo3. The Geo made more sence since they were basically the same price point and from what I would tell the Geo is still lighter. The wife's Geo was purchased after playing a scenario game with her mag. Weight got to her and she finally decided something lighter would add to her enjoyment. Btw I do not use ramping at all. I still sit with the same 7-10 bps on my Geo that I ran on my mag.

I will say the Geo's have no soul. They are just function. Whereas mags have character. But when weighing my options I felt the Geo was the smarter buy. Only time will tell

[wetwrks]

Ive seen two things,

#1 - they move from steel to aluminum was too slow

#2 - Dealers abandoned them right around that time for reasons unknown to me.

My understanding was they quit licensing and selling thru dealers. That they thought they could do all the sales thru their store alone. That the few dealers (Tuna) were the remaining of the ones who had permission to sell their products and that no more were being added. I may be mistaken in that information but that is what I have heard for years. Frankly I would like to hear otherwise.

[dahoeb]

1) The design was too good. Theres not a lot that can be changed to make real meaningful improvements to the design. Most modern guns have plenty of room for some little tweaks and new milling here and there so they can market new changes and "improvements". Ofc if the e-mag was still being made, thatd open all kinds of options and possibilities for evolution.

2) Smarts parts.

3) many current paintballers are fickle with their fads and preferences changing almost seasonally.

[BLachance75]

Smart Parts and the tourney ban is what I think were the big problems. I think that innovation stopping after Tom left was the final nail. With nothing new and fancy coming out people lost interest.

[Spider-TW]

Not everyone appreciates quality. There was a large chunk of market that AGD was never going to get with that.

[Patron God of Pirates]

No longer being carried in stores hurt real bad. I remember X-Fire in Nashua pushing hard to sell me an RTP. A few months later they didn't carry them anymore and the same guy was telling me how bad they sucked. The stores sell what they have for sale and like it or not, even in the internet age, most peoples first advice on what to buy comes from a guy behind a counter or a kid on the field. Neither have Mags. Go into those stores now and they are pushing Mil-Sim garbage with all kinds of non-functioning accessories.

[pillage]

Changes in how the the paintball marketing was done pushed the Mag out of the limelight. Back in the the hey day of the Mag versus Cocker battle for paintball supremacy, there were virtually no kids playing paintball. It was pretty much an adult only activity. Those same adults had their own disposable income to spend on their fun and games. Once paintball became an equipment based baby sitting service funded by mom and dads credit cards, the cheap, light, and disposable gun became vogue. Enter the age of mass produced disposables like the Ion which flooded the market at the time ,and pushed the heavy old reliable guns out of the limelight. This in turn made the dinosaurs of paintball fall even further out of favor. The over production of the disposable gun, and the economic bubble combined to kill off lots of paintball businesses, which is where we are today. The irony of this situation is not lost on those of us that still have the AGD dinosaurs, as the disposables got chucked in the trash, while o-rings and oil continues to let us play with our toys even after spending years in a closet collecting dust.

[Dayspring]

The other thing that hurt AGD was their military contracts. Tom had to make a decision and I bet it came down to finances (as it should when you're a business owner). Smart Parts didn't help, but the development of the FN303 and what ever other military stuff Tom had going on diverted attention from paintball.

[AGDRetro]

I think the idea of weight being an issue is almost funny after 2003 when the ULE debuted. The problem there is that without a lot of marketing to advertise the new lightweight Mags, I think to many they retained their reputation as a "heavy" gun. A decent ULE X-Valve'd Mag is still pretty light by today's standards. Just a shame that they cannot be 100% controlled for capped tournament use. Still... probably one of the finest recball markers😁

[skipdogg]

Many small issues caused it. Most of which are mentioned above. Overall I'd just say,
Everything has a life cycle. AGD went thru that just like every other company does or will. If anything, I would say we are all lucky AGD didn't and hasn't closed shop. Most companies in their shoes would have done so years ago.

[ghost flanker]

Early on (1990-1996ish), the biggest problems were;
- BALL CHOPS: this horrible reputation followed AGD around like a black cloud for years, even after the problem was finally resolved in 2002, over a decade later. Just imagine if the level 10 bolt had been introduced in the mid 90s before AGD's popularity began to decline.
- MALFUNCTIONS FROM CO2: was either partially solved by expansion chambers and anti-siphon tanks, or completely resolved by compressed air, which was an expensive and sparsely available solution at the time for an already expensive gun, especially with non-tournament players.

1997 onwards, the biggest problems (aside from ball chop) were;
- WEIGHT: even the weight savings from ULE (when it finally became available) couldn't counterbalance the heavy Emag/Xmag batteries enough for these guns to be widely accepted by players over competing brands for tournament use. AGD also dropped the ball by neglecting to ULE other parts of their guns besides just the body and valve. Case in point, the massive solid aluminum brick we refer to as the RT Pro rail was completely unnecessary.
- SHART FARTS: aka greedy backstabbers and ruiners of the industry...I'm not bitter at all;)
- POOR AIR EFFICIENCY: this was never improved upon by AGD in any new, updated models.
- TOO MUCH EXTERNAL AIR LINE: never improved upon by AGD in any new, updated models, either.
- POWERFEED: AGD was late to the party in developing low-profile vertical feed bodies.
- SIMPLISTIC STYLING: the slick looking Xmag arrived too late before SP killed it.

[keiko_819]

They went wrong making a marker that's quality is unsurpassed, yea their are space guns that will shoot faster and be more efficient...I personally don't care, Ive shot most high end electros/pumps and still feel my mags have a tighter grouping. Ive been lucky enough to make it to some old schoolers games and most the times, the veteran ballers think I'm shooting a ccm or bob long, when i explain and show them its a mag they are cought off guard. Even made it to a couple AO games and it seemed like there were only a select group that shot our mags all day. In fact i was kind of disappointed when i started seeing the battery powered machines come out...yeah they could use some more marketing but I feel its up to us to keep using those old classic dinasours and new ule builds...make those snapshots cound and land those impossible shots to make the opponent wonder what he/she got taken out with...that will spread the virus that we have as mag shooters. show them that quality still shoots strait...

[capt spank]

I don't think agd necessarily "went wrong". It's a top of the line mechanical marker. But let's compare it to let's say an axe. The axe is smoother, quieter, lighter, more efficient, just as easy maintenance, just as good reliability. Some paint I can't shoot in my mags. Never had an issue with my axe with even the crappiest paint.

Imo, aesthetics is a significant downside. The bodies/rails that the awesome people in this community produce are sexy as hell. The ule tube, meh.

[going_home]

I don't think agd necessarily "went wrong". It's a top of the line mechanical marker. But let's compare it to let's say an axe. The axe is smoother, quieter, lighter, more efficient, just as easy maintenance, just as good reliability. Some paint I can't shoot in my mags. Never had an issue with my axe with even the crappiest paint.

Imo, aesthetics is a significant downside. The bodies/rails that the awesome people in this community produce are sexy as hell. The ule tube, meh.

One reason the 1st Gen Axe is my go to electronic marker, although I do have an IR3.

I'm stopping at 3 of them.

I'm all A's , Automags, Axes, and Angel's.



;)

[boddah]

What was the deal with smart parts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dark Side]

Not enough marketing. Now with that being said, Paintball Charleston is the last place I knew of that actually sold and promoted Mags but it has been two years since I was in the area.

[Dayspring]

What was the deal with smart parts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Through some wheeling and dealing, SP came into possession of a patent that covered the electronic firing of a paintball gun. They also used some shady dealings to expand the definition beyond the actual drawings to cover ALL electronic modes of firing the gun. At that point, they started enforcing the patent - cease and desist or pay a license fee per gun. Some places stopped making electronic guns, some paid the fees. Others (National Paintball/Empire & Dye) from what I hear didn't have to pay at all - partially due to National's "300 lb gorilla" distribution status (no reason to piss that off) and Dye having prior art on the spool valve that Smart Parts was using for their shocker (Dye could have sued them for infringement).

The last 2 items are, admittedly, hearsay - but they came from reliable sources.

[boddah]

Thanks for the info. I'm trying to piece together all the history since I've been out of the game. So who owns SP?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dayspring]

Thanks for the info. I'm trying to piece together all the history since I've been out of the game. So who owns SP?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, SP doesn't exist as it used to. Kee Action Sports (Empire, etc.) bought the patents when Smart Parts went bankrupt. Interestingly enough, the patent is now public domain.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=5112033&highlight=

[vintage]

:PopCorn:

[going_home]

https://media.giphy.com/media/dGhlifOCTtSdW/giphy.gif

[cockerpunk]

i think it was a poor decision to try and make a stand alone E-trigger for an automag, and preserve the backwards compatibility. the direct acting noid, and thus massive battery needed to power it ... it might have been fine for a late 1990's electro, but by even the year 2000, it was outdated. a wiser course of action would have been to totally revamp the automag valve, ditch backwards compatibility and make a true electro-pnumatic triggered blowforward gun, with eyes. such a gun was probably in the works, but the above "we have capital to do one thing, defend ourselves from SP, or make a new gun" dichotomy got in the way.

[Sandman]

AGD, never really went wrong. The original force behind AGD simply changed directions and it wasn't in the direction of paintball. For all practical purposes the company should be gone.
Dave has been producing the parts and keeping things going for years on his own.

Earlier this year Dave decided to let go a little and allow some help in building a new website and reaching out to the mag market. That's where I came in. So far the new site has been a great help and Facebook has created a nice way for us to reach customers again too. I've worked on a few new items to help excite the market and built some cool guns that look great and get people talking about mags again. I'll keep working to do more and hopefully as the economy grows back , we'll get Airgun to grow with it.

Cya

[BigEvil]

i think ...


Never assume anyone cares what you think :P

[Sandman]

One point I forgot to mention about AGD and moving forward is the commitment of time. Right now AGD doesn't produce a living for anyone. It is a part time endeavor. All the people working in the community Like Luke, BE, Cougar, Xmag, Tuna and myself at AGD all have to earn a living. Well I assume those guys do unless they are independently wealthy. I for one am not. Luckily, I am in the paintball business full time and working AGD into the formula is much less costly for me as it shares into overhead that is already covered. Dave is local and close to me and he can visit and we conspire almost everyday on getting parts and taking steps to move forward. It's not an easy task anymore working within the budget and time constraints that we both have. But we are making progress. We appreciate all the support.
Thanks!
Tim
Sandman

[RogueFactor]

The answer is multi-faceted, and requires some business acumen, a knowledge of some history and the mistakes Tom K made. Having been one of AGDs largest dealers by yearly gross sales/volume at one point, and having some business sense, its not too hard to recognize.

There is little point in saying more, its spilt milk and water under the bridge at this point. The bell cannot be unrung, it cannot be undone.

[Dayspring]

The answer is multi-faceted, and requires some business acumen, a knowledge of some history and the mistakes Tom K made. Having been one of AGDs largest dealers by yearly gross sales/volume at one point, and having some business sense, its not too hard to recognize.

There is little point in saying more, its spilt milk and water under the bridge at this point. The bell cannot be unrung, it cannot be undone.

Any more cliches? ;)

[going_home]

https://media.giphy.com/media/dGhlifOCTtSdW/giphy.gif

[Spider-TW]

^


https://media.giphy.com/media/dGhlifOCTtSdW/giphy.gif

[ghost flanker]

Never assume anyone cares what you think :P
I understand you don't like cockerpunk, probably for good reason, but I think you're out of line here. If you think his argument is flawed, then by all means address it. But comments like this make me feel uncomfortable about being on this forum.

[Dayspring]

I understand you don't like cockerpunk, probably for good reason, but I think you're out of line here. If you think his argument is flawed, then by all means address it. But comments like this make me feel uncomfortable about being on this forum.

I see both sides on this comment. Borderline flaming? Yup. But in reality he's also right - you can't assume that somebody cares about what you (or anybody else for that matter) thinks about a subject.

[ghost flanker]

I see both sides on this comment. Borderline flaming? Yup. But in reality he's also right - you can't assume that somebody cares about what you (or anybody else for that matter) thinks about a subject.
Seriously? Don't be so disingenuous. Whether he's right or not is besides the point. Cockerpunk said nothing wrong or provoking here. Big Evil went out of his way to pull a dik move that was intended to instigate a fight on this thread, not to divulge some insightful fact about skepticism. Would you be defending that comment if it were cockerpunk who had written it, instead?

[Spider-TW]

Seriously? Don't be so disingenuous. Whether he's right or not is besides the point. Cockerpunk said nothing wrong or provoking here. Big Evil went out of his way to pull a dik move that was intended to instigate a fight on this thread, not to divulge some insightful fact about skepticism. Would you be defending that comment if it were cockerpunk who had written it, instead?

OH! You're looking for an argument! This is "Abuse". "Arguments" are down the hall.

There have been a few large arguments around here over the years that you only see little bits of, either pruned away by various parties or bled over from other forums. Some bled over to other forums.

"I think" it's pretty futile to second guess the decisions made fifteen to twenty years ago as poor or unwise. There may be some applicable business lessons in it all, but you would build your own trap by trying to guide a decision today by 20/20 vision of the past ("past performance is no guarantee....)." While SP pooped on the industry during that period, TK has never struck me as a regretful and sad panda.

[cockerpunk]

I see both sides on this comment. Borderline flaming? Yup. But in reality he's also right - you can't assume that somebody cares about what you (or anybody else for that matter) thinks about a subject.

where did i assume anyone cares what i thought?

care or don't ... no skin off my back.

thread asked a question, i answered what i thought. as any member of AO is free to do (last i checked).

[ghost flanker]

Spider-TW,

Sure, it's futile in the sense that no response within this thread is ever going to change the past, and the lessons here aren't a guarantee regarding future business decision-making (is anything?), but it's apparent that some people still find the topic interesting and want to talk about it. TK may or may not have any regrets, but some AGD fans are still confused as to how or why such a good product wasn't more... I don't know... successful? Why AGD products aren't still mounted on display walls in paintball shops across the country. Other AGD fans have their own ideas -- some wrong, some plausible -- but the whole point of this thread was to get people to share what they think.

[Spider-TW]

Spider-TW,

Sure, it's futile in the sense that no response within this thread is ever going to change the past, and the lessons here aren't a guarantee regarding future business decision-making (is anything?), but it's apparent that some people still find the topic interesting and want to talk about it. TK may or may not have any regrets, but some AGD fans are still confused as to how or why such a good product wasn't more... I don't know... successful? Why AGD products aren't still mounted on display walls in paintball shops across the country. Other AGD fans have their own ideas -- some wrong, some plausible -- but the whole point of this thread was to get people to share what they think.

Right. So, there seems to be two main themes. One is that AGD did not deviate from its fundamental designs enough with regard to quality, robustness (3k regulators), and parts compatibility. Second is the lack of early electro designs and/or failure to fully accept a non-hybrid design.

My point is that "back in the day" only a small market that read APG magazines and such were looking for a great paintball gun that worked every time you pulled the trigger and that shot consistently. Chronographs preceded automags and the CO2 markers were awful for competition. There was also zero "body of knowledge" to say (for instance) about how much pressure and volume of air a marker needed to deliver per shot and how fast can you move that. You can find pretty good guidelines for that now, if you're not looking at a successful marker already. After AGD worked through up to the level 5 and beyond in refinements, there was nothing to say that a different design would prove out as well.

On electros, solenoid valves and electronics were just getting practical. If you wanted to have one reliable marker, it wasn't going to be straight up electro-pneumatic.

Something you should also consider is; "what did SP do correctly?". Other than patent squatting, they were selling a lot of stuff. Instead of containing and working at high pressure, they just brought it down and let the marker fail if something went wrong. They designed for product failure and promoted hard. They would sell you two half-reliable markers so that you could play 70.7% of the time. It's not a business of engineering nor production, but of sales. Engineers just became a necessary "cost center" for them. It is easy to see why a talented person may not be interested in playing that game (they don't have to).

I see the parts compatibility and modularity as a unique and exploitable feature, with small run CNC and 3D printing making a lot of interesting possibilities. With a little more luck, we will have a reliable electro mechanical frame. But if any of it is going to be "big", it still needs a twitter account and some hot models. :rolleyes:

[blackdeath1k]

∆∆∆∆. And that is why marketing was my #1 reason. Companies time and time again prove marketing can sell a crap product any day of the week over a quality product that isn't marketed. Especially in the days before modern internet.

[Nobody]

i think it was a poor decision to try and make a stand alone E-trigger for an automag, and preserve the backwards compatibility. the direct acting noid, and thus massive battery needed to power it ... it might have been fine for a late 1990's electro, but by even the year 2000, it was outdated. a wiser course of action would have been to totally revamp the automag valve, ditch backwards compatibility and make a true electro-pnumatic triggered blowforward gun, with eyes. such a gun was probably in the works, but the above "we have capital to do one thing, defend ourselves from SP, or make a new gun" dichotomy got in the way.

I'll take a stab at this.

1) at that point, there was no R&D for a new valve nor should there have been. The valve works well, add in the L10 l, which is near something no one else has, there is no need the deviate from the line when there is not a problem.

2) remaking the valve and/or the gun line, to a better marketing is hindsight. We are coming from what history laid out not at the precipice of staying the course. The real forward push of lighter was just starting but never gain ground. Look at cockers, angels, shoebox shockers, and see that the mag was not the heavyweight in that crowd, but all of those guns (except the shocker which was ditched completely) did get smaller and lighter in their lives. You can not do that to a mag without a major redesign, which is time and money.

3) a redesign is thoroughly stupid. Its not the package that is the problem. Look at the cocker/ressurection, other than simplifying the internals and changing/bulletproofing the pneumatics, the only thing that really changed is the appearance. You hold a 98 cocker up to a 2016 ressurection, they are the same in looks. The pneumatics are in the same place, and most parts are even interchangeable. But its the marketing of it, its the preceived notion of freahness, and a impressive support system that thrusts the cocker back into the mainstream that the mag sorely lacks & needs. The ressurection didn't change the cocker, it only fixed the problems, updated them to today's simplier player.

[Nobody]

Now SP did a few things great. 1 was making you the consumer feel that you needed this or that part or gun. At the point of circa 2003, the Impulse was the it gun. You had dozens of private label guns, multiple part houses adding in their own mark and part to the mix.when you build in that need of not only needing the gun to be completed (impulses came without a LPR, which every stacked tube electro needs to set hammer/rammer pressure) but people could put personal pieces to make their guns more unique. Throw that in the marketing of and high profile of many pro teams sponsored by SP using it (and subsequently the later SFT & NXT shockers/ the poor Nerve never found a niche) was paramount of them making their mark and even trying to dominate the market with their lawsuit.

But the main point is, they had marketing. Whether it was paying for teams to use their guns, having many companies provide guns, parts and exposure. Looking back 12 years ago, you had multiple base, special editions, limited editions, private label, and most importantly the fields/proshops wanting to cash in on them by having those guns and selling them down the line. It was the underground marketing that AGD could never get. Mags were never flashy, never had the PL versions, never had the extensive aftermarket part path that some guns had. Being the thinking man's paintball gun, all the technology was buried in a single tube, all within a valve. It also didn't help that even though the L10 eliminated any chopping (the bane of all mags, preceived and actual) the main point of any RT/RTPro/Emag/Xvalve was the reactivity enabling the guns to sing way passed the 20bps range without the aid of any cheater boards.

Regardless of what the pros shoot, the basis of all paintball is the woods. The TacOne bodies gave the people a place to put whatever on them, the key to any woodsball gun has been 2 things: weight and efficeincy. Lugging around an Emag, or an Xmag with a warp, or a classic loaded up, gets tiresome very quickly. Ask beemer about his warps at LL8 and when he used Dayspring's Etek. And when you go into the woods, or just a field, its what are the people using. That is the biggest influence on what people will use/buy. Year's ago, i played some 3 man speedball tournaments. 1 year there were all kinds of Timmys used because the Pev and their(at the time) 7 proshops all stocked & used timmys. A few years later and they switched to Egos. Mags rarely had that benefit.

You can also add in the slow move from powerfeeds to centerfeed/aluminium bodies, lack of R&D on seeing what or where the game is moving. I really think that if TK would have found a Face for AGD that TK could have moved to solely the technical aspects and had the face do the promotion. Then the next smaller Emag could happen, the next developments could be made, hell even a factory pneumag. Alas, that could never happen.

[going_home]

∆∆∆∆. And that is why marketing was my #1 reason. Companies time and time again prove marketing can sell a crap product any day of the week over a quality product that isn't marketed. Especially in the days before modern internet.

Ronco !


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhrHnhMGWEc

[going_home]

I'll take a stab at this.


Who didnt see that coming ?


http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d151/redic115/tunaball%209/DSC_4749_zpsnub8ccbf.jpg (http://s35.photobucket.com/user/redic115/media/tunaball%209/DSC_4749_zpsnub8ccbf.jpg.html)

[blackdeath1k]

Ronco !


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhrHnhMGWEc

I was actually thinking about vanilla skate company compared to Riedell when I made that post. Or the fact mags had no marketing to speak of by 2001. Nobody knew what they were unless they had been playing a few years already in my area.

[cockerpunk]

I'll take a stab at this.

1) at that point, there was no R&D for a new valve nor should there have been. The valve works well, add in the L10 l, which is near something no one else has, there is no need the deviate from the line when there is not a problem.

2) remaking the valve and/or the gun line, to a better marketing is hindsight. We are coming from what history laid out not at the precipice of staying the course. The real forward push of lighter was just starting but never gain ground. Look at cockers, angels, shoebox shockers, and see that the mag was not the heavyweight in that crowd, but all of those guns (except the shocker which was ditched completely) did get smaller and lighter in their lives. You can not do that to a mag without a major redesign, which is time and money.

3) a redesign is thoroughly stupid. Its not the package that is the problem. Look at the cocker/ressurection, other than simplifying the internals and changing/bulletproofing the pneumatics, the only thing that really changed is the appearance. You hold a 98 cocker up to a 2016 ressurection, they are the same in looks. The pneumatics are in the same place, and most parts are even interchangeable. But its the marketing of it, its the preceived notion of freahness, and a impressive support system that thrusts the cocker back into the mainstream that the mag sorely lacks & needs. The ressurection didn't change the cocker, it only fixed the problems, updated them to today's simplier player.

once you decide to make a true electro-pneumatic triggered blowforward, there is little sense in keeping most of the classic automags configuration or parts. the job of the mechanical on/off (for example) is essentially redundant with a pneumatic solenoid valve, and a bolt tail, they do the same thing, you don't need both. once you take out the on/off, you don't need the reg on the back (make the gun shorter), you can still keep the level 10, just add eyes (new body/rail construction for optimization there), pretty soon you have a gun that rather looks like most modern blow forward electro pneumatics.

the automag is a fantastic design, but its fundamentally a mechanical gun. because it was designed as such.

clean sheet of paper design, making an AGD electro, i think would be a pretty different looking gun. a gun that would look and function a lot like the guns of today, but made in the mid-2000s. that would have been pretty awesome innovation. something more like a freestyle or the original GEO.

[blackdeath1k]

once you decide to make a true electro-pneumatic triggered blowforward, there is little sense in keeping most of the classic automags configuration or parts. the job of the mechanical on/off (for example) is essentially redundant with a pneumatic solenoid valve, and a bolt tail, they do the same thing, you don't need both. once you take out the on/off, you don't need the reg on the back (make the gun shorter), you can still keep the level 10, just add eyes (new body/rail construction for optimization there), pretty soon you have a gun that rather looks like most modern blow forward electro pneumatics.

the automag is a fantastic design, but its fundamentally a mechanical gun. because it was designed as such.

clean sheet of paper design, making an AGD electro, i think would be a pretty different looking gun. a gun that would look and function a lot like the guns of today, but made in the mid-2000s. that would have been pretty awesome innovation. something more like a freestyle or the original GEO.

Sounds like you are describing a Geo to me. And honestly every time I think of the design of the Geo function wise I think of a new age simplified electro pnumatic mag design.

I stand corrected. You already mentioned the Geo in your post. A board, regulator, solenoid valve, dump chamber, and bolt. That makes up a Geo.

[Spider-TW]

clean sheet of paper design, making an AGD electro, i think would be a pretty different looking gun. a gun that would look and function a lot like the guns of today, but made in the mid-2000s. that would have been pretty awesome innovation. something more like a freestyle or the original GEO.

But that would put it up against the gen-E matrix and early freestyles, along with the 2k2 (and 2k5) intimidators. All of these hinged upon HPA also. Compressors in the 90s were still very pricey animals. They have come a long way also. Not saying it wouldn't have been viable, just another uphill battle. If AGD ended up as an equal to Dye and Bob Long, we would probably asking that same question "why would I pay that much?".

The other side of SP was that they were always expanding, probably beyond their means. They like to say that they got caught by having their recent large loan getting called in, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had been running from one loan to another for a long time. People complain that AGD doesn't have a factory; but regardless, it has limped along with the efforts of a few. "Minimally sustainable" is better than smacked down and sold off.

[cockerpunk]

But that would put it up against the gen-E matrix and early freestyles, along with the 2k2 (and 2k5) intimidators. All of these hinged upon HPA also. Compressors in the 90s were still very pricey animals. They have come a long way also. Not saying it wouldn't have been viable, just another uphill battle. If AGD ended up as an equal to Dye and Bob Long, we would probably asking that same question "why would I pay that much?".

The other side of SP was that they were always expanding, probably beyond their means. They like to say that they got caught by having their recent large loan getting called in, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had been running from one loan to another for a long time. People complain that AGD doesn't have a factory; but regardless, it has limped along with the efforts of a few. "Minimally sustainable" is better than smacked down and sold off.

this post confuses me. why does compressed air matter?

high end electros in the early 2000s were all running compressed air. it was the standard gas for high end guns. only the shockers were still using co2, but that was because they were so horrendously inefficient, and co2 has a much higher energy density, not because it was more commonly available.

the Xmag did go up against the matrix, freestyle, and timmies .... and it lost.

[Spider-TW]

this post confuses me. why does compressed air matter?

That was referring back to my earlier point about the present technology in the early 2000s, relative to mass marketing. Yes, high end markers were running nitrogen and HPA, which TK had a big hand in. But HPA was still lagging on the local fields. In 2005, there was a web page that helped you locate fields with HPA. Any marker shooting at those higher rates needed HPA, for fill speed if nothing else. It only took a few years for it to really take off, but by 2005 SP was marketing the Ion.

While that may have indeed been the time to inject a dedicated electro-spool, I don't see the Freestyle nor the Ion as leaving a lot of new market space, regardless of patents and shady practices. Sure AGD could have been competitive, but not so much in innovation as much as production and marketing. Sure, innovations could have been made on any one design, but the market was still boxed in.

Assuming they all survived on the high end, was there enough market to sustain AGD, Dye, PE, Bob Long and SP?


the Xmag did go up against the matrix, freestyle, and timmies .... and it lost.
An AGD electro-spool would have won? As it is, people already complain about the "lack of innovation" in the paintball market as a whole.

Anyone know if Bob Long was still making good money before the sale?

[Nobody]

once you decide to make a true electro-pneumatic triggered blowforward, there is little sense in keeping most of the classic automags configuration or parts. the job of the mechanical on/off (for example) is essentially redundant with a pneumatic solenoid valve, and a bolt tail, they do the same thing, you don't need both. once you take out the on/off, you don't need the reg on the back (make the gun shorter), you can still keep the level 10, just add eyes (new body/rail construction for optimization there), pretty soon you have a gun that rather looks like most modern blow forward electro pneumatics.

the automag is a fantastic design, but its fundamentally a mechanical gun. because it was designed as such.

clean sheet of paper design, making an AGD electro, i think would be a pretty different looking gun. a gun that would look and function a lot like the guns of today, but made in the mid-2000s. that would have been pretty awesome innovation. something more like a freestyle or the original GEO.

Bait in, time to set the hook ;)

You are missing 1 huge aspect of the mag and AGD. The valve is part of the gun, it is almost unibody like a car; in that the valve is part of the structure of the gun. With that it is incredibly hard to stop what you are doing to change in midstream to go an entirely new direction. Looking at those guns of that era, Bob Long kept refining the stacked tube design that he learned off ICD. Dye bought up matrix and everything Gen-E and War Machine(?) had done before, again refining the design. The same with WDP, even though they kept trying different sensors to detect paintballs that either a reflective or breakbeam eyes. SP was the only ones that did change the entire gun, but as far as i know, the development of the SFT could have been years in the making. Whether SP saw that the development path of the old shoebox was basically nil, or they could not compete with the RoF wars with that closed bolt design.

But because you said development, this also goes into the C&D that SP started. Though slow to pick up ground as people didn't or wouldn't believe it, the ominous spectre of that did kill AKA's Viking and Excaliber, force ICD to sell out to Empire then fold paintball activities by 2006, and a few others i can't remember. That more than anything potentially stopped AGD from doing any development to refine or even go a different, possibly a true blow forward electro.

The freestyle was an elegant design but it was as temperamental as an F1 car. The first models had horrendous efficiency but each generation did refine the gun (though the FSP was the basturd step-child that well was a basturd in design and implementation), to the point that if development was not stopped and ICD did get some decent HPRs that could keep up with the gun's potential. (Pssst, there were rumors of Empire planning to use the Freestyle FS8 bolt in the Vanquish, but they chose to go with the more recently acquired SP shocker properties)

So again, like an arch, you just can't focus on the keystone but all of the factors to the one thing. Everyone here in this thread is absolutely correct because most of these people had lived through that era. This is an opinion question, not something you can do a quick "sound byte" for an answer because there are and were so many factors that played major and minor parts. I knew you woikd give your quick, "cut bait & start over" answer because that is who you are. Even that isn't wrong except when considering all the factors in that time.

[Nobody]

Oh, about the Xmag loosing to timmys and trixs et al? TK himself said that the programming for the Emag was not that great. He was thoroughly surprised that Lornecash dumped all of the Xmod programming into the stock Emag board. Anyone here can attest, who has had a emag/Xmag with the various AGD programming to how better the Xmod is to waking up the inherent capabilities of said mags. Also, look at those guns, they also had support of aftermarket companies that did make better boards/chips. Tadao, Virtue, regardless of whether they made cheater boards or not, they did give people an option, by choice or even sponsorship.

You can also look at pure gun sponsorships and factory teams. AGD only had a few, even Jax Warriors moved to the cocker. When you loose even that development aspect of actual on field feedback, it is hard for anyone to plan on what the needs are for the gun. Add in that there is a SPECIFIC rule to BAN the RT and other positive force triggers. You are climbing a mountain to even compete.

No, the Xmag didn't loose against those guns, it was unable to compete at the same level.

[going_home]

:confused:

Wait...

Did Doug just say Gordon was right ?

I just really dont know what to say.


:wow:

[Dayspring]

:confused:

Wait...

Did Doug just say Gordon was right ?

I just really dont know what to say.


:wow:

The next thing that'll happen is that the Cubs will win the World Series.

Surely the 2nd sign of the apocalypse.

[Nobody]

Right or correct in that there was no wrong answers, not that his answer was better or best for the situation.

[BigEvil]

The best part about all of those smart part offering, the autococker platform, and the mag platform is something that they all have in common and something that is greatly missing in the paintball industry today. That is a vast aftermarket potential. Retailers do not make money on markers. They make money on parts and accessories. What 3 markers had a wider aftermarket path than the Imp, Cocker and mag?

YOu can spin anything else with marketing propaganda that you want. Retailers will say anything to get someone to buy something that they can make money on.

[Spider-TW]

The best part about all of those smart part offering, the autococker platform, and the mag platform is something that they all have in common and something that is greatly missing in the paintball industry today. That is a vast aftermarket potential. Retailers do not make money on markers. They make money on parts and accessories. What 3 markers had a wider aftermarket path than the Imp, Cocker and mag?

YOu can spin anything else with marketing propaganda that you want. Retailers will say anything to get someone to buy something that they can make money on.

There's two ways to support aftermarkets. One is to not change your base design every year, so that there is a quantity of the same base product to supply and calendar time for the aftermarket to catch up. The second is "partnerships" where you bring the secondary suppliers in during design, but that obviously breeds its own difficulties.

Which brings up a good point, if you don't update an already good product, someone else will try to update it for you. Anyone can order 1000 Chinese copies and mess up your market. That wasn't a problem too long ago.

In consideration of whole redesigns and innovation, you should consider the long evolution of the automag, matrix and cocker and then look at the metadyne thumper and J4 torque. The Tiberius T15 wasn't a huge redesign but still suffered its own early production problems. Any one set back is not really "a thing", but when you are trying to catch a wave in the market its a big problem. You put stuff together and make it work, then you redesign to make it last and to be producible, then you go back and make it work again, etc.

I agree that any new high end AGD marker probably needs electronics. I shoot mech automags because they are comfortable, not from any dread of electronics or batteries. I just don't see marketing without electronics.

On the other (low) end, what would an AGD splatmaster or nelspot look like? Maybe not low end, but minimal, like a redesign of the Sydarm. A Google IA bot could figure this out.

[oldironmudder]

No, the Xmag didn't loose against those guns, it was unable to compete at the same level.

I used Intimidators for several years & knew them inside & out. What they would do bone stock & if you sat down & tuned them correctly with the right parts. My E-RT, only having messed with it a short time compared to a timmy, I could see it (E/X-mag platform) evolve into a more refined piece of equipment. Honestly it is a better one as far as reliability & simplicity. Only a couple things to "tweak" & **** up.

Not sure if its bleeding over from the other thread or what but if AGD went away from the valve to design a new marker, it wouldnt be a mag, just another agd marker.

[going_home]

what but if AGD went away from the valve to design a new marker, it wouldnt be a mag, just another agd marker.

Thats a pretty good point

[BigEvil]

There's two ways to support aftermarkets. One is to not change your base design every year, so that there is a quantity of the same base product to supply and calendar time for the aftermarket to catch up. The second is "partnerships" where you bring the secondary suppliers in during design, but that obviously breeds its own difficulties.

Which brings up a good point, if you don't update an already good product, someone else will try to update it for you. Anyone can order 1000 Chinese copies and mess up your market. That wasn't a problem too long ago.

In consideration of whole redesigns and innovation, you should consider the long evolution of the automag, matrix and cocker and then look at the metadyne thumper and J4 torque. The Tiberius T15 wasn't a huge redesign but still suffered its own early production problems. Any one set back is not really "a thing", but when you are trying to catch a wave in the market its a big problem. You put stuff together and make it work, then you redesign to make it last and to be producible, then you go back and make it work again, etc.

I agree that any new high end AGD marker probably needs electronics. I shoot mech automags because they are comfortable, not from any dread of electronics or batteries. I just don't see marketing without electronics.

On the other (low) end, what would an AGD splatmaster or nelspot look like? Maybe not low end, but minimal, like a redesign of the Sydarm. A Google IA bot could figure this out.

There have been very few 'performance' upgrades over the years that have actually been improvements on certain guns. Some could not function without them, but people still purchased them and spent the cash on the upgrades. I was more referring to things that normally did not come with (even high end) markers like decent barrels and feednecks. Now, you don't need or want to upgrade any of those things on the cheaper guns. Also, why would you, it's a cheap gun..

[cockerpunk]

Bait in, time to set the hook ;)

You are missing 1 huge aspect of the mag and AGD. The valve is part of the gun, it is almost unibody like a car; in that the valve is part of the structure of the gun. With that it is incredibly hard to stop what you are doing to change in midstream to go an entirely new direction. Looking at those guns of that era, Bob Long kept refining the stacked tube design that he learned off ICD. Dye bought up matrix and everything Gen-E and War Machine(?) had done before, again refining the design. The same with WDP, even though they kept trying different sensors to detect paintballs that either a reflective or breakbeam eyes. SP was the only ones that did change the entire gun, but as far as i know, the development of the SFT could have been years in the making. Whether SP saw that the development path of the old shoebox was basically nil, or they could not compete with the RoF wars with that closed bolt design.

But because you said development, this also goes into the C&D that SP started. Though slow to pick up ground as people didn't or wouldn't believe it, the ominous spectre of that did kill AKA's Viking and Excaliber, force ICD to sell out to Empire then fold paintball activities by 2006, and a few others i can't remember. That more than anything potentially stopped AGD from doing any development to refine or even go a different, possibly a true blow forward electro.

The freestyle was an elegant design but it was as temperamental as an F1 car. The first models had horrendous efficiency but each generation did refine the gun (though the FSP was the basturd step-child that well was a basturd in design and implementation), to the point that if development was not stopped and ICD did get some decent HPRs that could keep up with the gun's potential. (Pssst, there were rumors of Empire planning to use the Freestyle FS8 bolt in the Vanquish, but they chose to go with the more recently acquired SP shocker properties)

So again, like an arch, you just can't focus on the keystone but all of the factors to the one thing. Everyone here in this thread is absolutely correct because most of these people had lived through that era. This is an opinion question, not something you can do a quick "sound byte" for an answer because there are and were so many factors that played major and minor parts. I knew you woikd give your quick, "cut bait & start over" answer because that is who you are. Even that isn't wrong except when considering all the factors in that time.


Oh, about the Xmag loosing to timmys and trixs et al? TK himself said that the programming for the Emag was not that great. He was thoroughly surprised that Lornecash dumped all of the Xmod programming into the stock Emag board. Anyone here can attest, who has had a emag/Xmag with the various AGD programming to how better the Xmod is to waking up the inherent capabilities of said mags. Also, look at those guns, they also had support of aftermarket companies that did make better boards/chips. Tadao, Virtue, regardless of whether they made cheater boards or not, they did give people an option, by choice or even sponsorship.

You can also look at pure gun sponsorships and factory teams. AGD only had a few, even Jax Warriors moved to the cocker. When you loose even that development aspect of actual on field feedback, it is hard for anyone to plan on what the needs are for the gun. Add in that there is a SPECIFIC rule to BAN the RT and other positive force triggers. You are climbing a mountain to even compete.

No, the Xmag didn't loose against those guns, it was unable to compete at the same level.

this doesn't really contain any counterpoint. just posting and typing for the sake of posting and typing.

also, the Xmag did loose. they made what? a thousand and change xmags? even less actually. they made and sold at least 10x that in 2k2 timmies alone.

the Xmag lost.

[Spider-TW]

also, the Xmag did loose. they made what? a thousand and change xmags? even less actually. they made and sold at least 10x that in 2k2 timmies alone.

the Xmag lost.


but by even the year 2000, it was outdated. a wiser course of action would have been to totally revamp the automag valve, ditch backwards compatibility and make a true electro-pnumatic triggered blowforward gun

And (stinky patents aside) you think an AGD electro-spool would be far enough in front of the freestyle and better than a Timmy to warrant a sustainable chunk of the market in mid-2000? What was a high end going for then? ~$1000? Say TK was way ahead of the game. If you offered a DM15 in 2005 for the same relative price and quality, truly a space gun, wouldn't AGD look like Dye or PE today? I honestly don't know how many DM15s were made (or any year for that matter). Would there be a marker that can shoot dimpled paint straight and consistent?

Dye and PE both look to have gone to "horizontal" marketing. The marker is just a piece of their "look good, shoot good" marketing including clothing, soft goods, and items for other sports.

I understand the price, but I don't see the real value ($ wise) or future of a new high end marker. If I see little magic in the last ten years and can't get any new features within reason today, how would you get ahead with the same "fanciness" then? If AGD "won", what would we have now? There's supposed to be an alternate dimension for that, isn't there? It happened, but where are they now?

[cledford]

I believe that Tom truly loved the sport and didn't want to harm it, or others within, with competitive marketing that was based on actual data and scientific analysis that *showed* what was BS and what wasn't. He had the data, the testing apparatus, and the ability to do it - He chose not to. I was literally standing in a backroom workshop with him, and Bob Long, at Pev's old store in Fairfax VA and remember him opening up Bob's personal Intimidator to setup a warp-feed for him to try. While Tom was gracious, you could literally see his perplexity as to the ridiculous design and build of the marker. The stuff AGD produced and sold was light years ahead of everything else on the market from a design and quality perspective. Unfortunately, too many people with disposable income needed to burn it on *something* and no one could design "upgrades" for the mag that produced discernible improvement, or met the quality or tolerances already put out by AGD. This hurt AGD in several ways.

The biggest issue turns out that Mags were over built - actually designed, manufactured, and built to the highest achievable level when released. Sure there were a couple of tweaks over the years - but nothing major. Mags were the "best" marker when the rolled out the door. However, there was a big problem - it is very hard to objectively determine the "best" when launching a ballistically inferior projectile, at a capped velocity, with markers that are by agreement limited to semi-auto only mode of fire. So, it turns out that the cheapest, most crappy markers were competent enough to work in almost all use cases. It is sort of like commuting back and forth to work in a formula 1 race car - even if it street legal, due to restrictions imposed on all, the overbuild provides zero advantage to the average user over the lowest level of equipment.

He could have easily slammed a number of gimmicks and dubious products and companies but didn't. He instead attempted to develop discerning, educated players here to educate the masses at the grass roots level. Unfortunately, nothing turned the tide of the BS marketing that dominated or the "emperor has new cloths" nature of the rubes that (literally) spent year after year being bilked out of their cash for absolutely nothing other than (in most cases) the placebo affect of "spend = I *feel* I'm now better equipped".

-Calvin

[rawbutter]

I don't think mags are overbuilt. Tipmmans are just as bullet-proof (well, almost), but they're still selling well, even the new ones that cost a few hundred dollars.

Nor do I think that mags are especially outdated. There are still plenty of other "old" designs out there that do fine.

I don't even think that mags have to go electronic. Mech markers are having a huge revival right now.


...by 2000, you had AGD mags not chopping paint, an electro versions and maybe other innovations that we all know. Yet, there was a decline in use and visibility. Yes, a lot of that has to do with the fickle nature of paintballers and the disposable cash era, which some companies were issuing guns/models every 2-3 years.

I think this is actually the biggest problem. No new products. At least not on a regular basis. Although...my definition of "new" might be different than yours. Let me explain.

If you look at a profitable paintball company like PE or Tippmann, they are constantly releasing new markers every year or so. Now, these "new" markers might not be all that different than the old ones. But it's still something to advertise. Something for the players to talk about. Something to get up the hype. At the very least, a "new" product reminds the players that the company is still active and working and there for them. It attracts attention and gets people talking and thinking about buying one.

Or take the "new" autocockers that are out there. The Resurrection. The ID custom markers. Again, these aren't a "new" design, but they are still something fresh to talk about and drool over.

AGD, on the other hand, hasn't really released anything new in...what, two decades now? I mean, there's now the XM Automag, and there were those custom anodized markers that got sold a year ago. But there were only a handful of those available. And the basic ULE mag has pretty much been the same forever. The only new stuff is coming from aftermarket guys like Luke, Cougar, X-magterror, etc. Maybe that's enough to keep the die-hard fans happy, but to the average player, all this "new" stuff is hard to find. You have to come here or join a Facebook group. You often have to get your new parts anodized by yourself. You have to jump through all these extra hoops.

And even when a player does find out about Automags and decide to buy one, there's no reason to buy one new. If I'm interested in a PE marker and I'm debating about buying used or new, in that case the new one has a few extra features. Or it's 20 grams lighter. Or it's 10% more efficient on air. Minor changes, I know, but if I want the latest and greatest, it's a clear choice. When buying an Automag, however, the ULE mag on the AGD website is literally the EXACT SAME THING as something I can find on eBay for $200 less.

So, I think the solution is simple. New products. (Again, I'm not saying 100% new. Just different and a little bit better.)

Sell a run of XM mags with all dust black anodizing in 2021.

Make a run with reverse x-valves in 2022.

Start taking some of the most popular aftermarket pieces and commission runs with those parts. Build a run of guns around the MP90 vertical frame for 2023, and maybe offer a T-Rex upgrade so people don't have to buy one from Luke and install it themselves. Build a run in 2024 around the XMT body and EVO foregrip.

As I've said, the change doesn't have to be much. It doesn't even have to be "better." But AGD needs to release something new every year that makes it worth buying something from them instead of eBay. Then people will start talking. Start buying.

[rawbutter]

This is kind of a side-bar to my previous post, but I've actually had an idea for years that seems relevant now.

The Automag C.

The dream is to build a run of custom Automags. No raw parts, and no "parts" even. A complete mag ready to go. The specifics change every once in a while, but here's the basic idea.

reverse x-valve
shortened ULE body (like the old Pariah bodies)
Teth rail, RT length
MP90 frame
EVO foregrip
ultralite barrel
Nummech ASA
everything is dust black


Obviously, funding all of this is a big problem. And building just one of these mags would be super expensive. But price-per-unit goes down as you buy more units, right? So build 100. I've got retirement money sitting somewhere earning 5% or so. I can't handle all 100 markers, but I would happily take some money out of the 401K if I could buy 10 of these things, keep one or two, and sell the rest for 25% more than I bought them for. And I'm willing to bet there are a few more investors out there like me.

I know this would be a lot of work for Tim and the others still at AGD, but if they are willing, I bet they could find enough investors to make it work. There's still a lot of faith in the company, and a lot of potential. It just needs a make-over.

[going_home]

I think Tim is doing good job.

Keep up the good work sir !

[Magoman]

What going home said. Thank you Tim for keeping our mags rocking! As to where AGD or Tom Kaye went wrong? Please..... In case y'all haven't noticed, there's a 20 year old forum dedicated to his legacy. Not to mention an even bigger Facebook following.

[Nobody]

What going home said. Thank you Tim for keeping our mags rocking! As to where AGD or Tom Kaye went wrong? Please..... In case y'all haven't noticed, there's a 20 year old forum dedicated to his legacy. Not to mention an even bigger Facebook following.

Ummm, no one is saying Tim isn't doing a fine job. This post was started nearly 4 years ago. It was about the marketplace or being held in the paintball world.

[rawbutter]

Ummm, no one is saying Tim isn't doing a fine job. This post was started nearly 4 years ago. It was about the marketplace or being held in the paintball world.

Lol. Got sucked into another Necro post. Thanks for catching that.

[Magoman]

It really doesn't suprise me that you two would post back to back with each other. But if you're saying I got sucked into a necro post, then how did you get sucked in here?

[Nobody]

It really doesn't suprise me that you two would post back to back with each other. But if you're saying I got sucked into a necro post, then how did you get sucked in here?

Cause i just go to the newly posted posts and see if i have anything to add. People commenting on it now, while nice, doesn't have to be.

[Konigballer]

It really doesn't suprise me that you two would post back to back with each other. But if you're saying I got sucked into a necro post, then how did you get sucked in here?

It's still an interesting topic for discussion, but one many people on here don't like to even consider. Alot of personal ego gets tied up in brands and products, especially ones people have been using for years, if not decades. Just check out any debate between 1911 people and Glock people on every gun forum, or the long time Ford vs. Chevy debate. MCB was better for this kind of thing, but, alas... :(