If AGD Wanted To Go Electronic ?

[going_home]

If Airgun Designs wanted to go further than being the best brand new mechanical marker on the planet available.....

Would they just offer a bolt on electronic frame ?

Or would it take a complete redesign ?

From a sales standpoint I'm thinking redesign, but R&D means more $ and employees yadda yadda, lots of $ .

A bolt on electronic frame would be an interesting addition but how would it do from a sales standpoint is a good question.

What say you ?

[maniacmechanic]

can we say Centerflag ??

[d4m4don3]

centerflag closed shop a few years ago :eek:

[maniacmechanic]

centerflag closed shop a few years ago :eek:

I know that ,, I was sayin the CF frame worked

[Nobody]

I know that ,, I was sayin the CF frame worked

It worked, but not well. It was a massive step forward but yet still had some problems.

I see more of a Egomag bolt on frame. Drop in kit with everything you would need. Of course, not using an ego frame, but a new frame that could incorporate those ideas that people have done before with them.

[dano_____]

I think their best option would be to build an electro pneumatic frame. Build the lpr into the asa and have a fitting out to feed the valve. Clapper noids tend to make the frames really thick, require bulky capacitors, and they aren't as easy to source as a 3-way solenoid. The trilogy solenoid is about perfect when it comes to design of a push valve and noid built into one small unit. Have it fed by the lpr asa in a comfortable frame and you woukd have it made. I have built ego pneumag with this setup and it worked ok, but a purpose built frame that could be attached and played with would be great. If we want to truly bring the mag into current play, you would be looking at something like the tippmann crossover. Granted it could be done with better looks and design, it would essentially be the same gun.

[going_home]

If the pnue frames could somehow be capped (ROF) electronically it would be a nice option, otherwise it's a no go for tournaments.

And then there's the Mexican standoff on the pnue patents between DW and PTP, I seriously doubt AGD will want to go that route.

[nak81783]

Was the Automag the first spool valve marker?

[Dayspring]

Was the Automag the first spool valve marker?

Automag isn't a spool.

[nak81783]

I've always used zdspb.com for marker classifications. Please help me understand how it is not a type (blow forward) of spool valve. Thanks.

[BigEvil]

If the pnue frames could somehow be capped (ROF) electronically it would be a nice option, otherwise it's a no go for tournaments.

And then there's the Mexican standoff on the pnue patents between DW and PTP, I seriously doubt AGD will want to go that route.

This would have to be researched... because the electro patent has expired.. and those patents were either before or shortly after the electro one so they might be coming to the end of their lifespan.

It's a big giant mistake to try to market anything to the 'tournament' scene. Look how great it's been working out for the last 10 years.

[blackdeath1k]

The op is not quite strait forward. Are you asking what agd would have to do to be back in the position they were in during the early 90s as one of the top markers being sold for tournament/high end usage?

Or what would give them an angle to work with for starting new market share in today's world?

Answer to the first question would most likely take a full marker redesign. And marketing. It might not take function concept redesign. But it would take layout redesign.

Answer to just leaping forward in the electro market could be easilly done with a reliable light weight electro frame like a hyper frame. Or a bolt on pneu frame. Sadly do to already existing marker costs these options would not move agd as far as the hard core in enthusiast would like. This would put the marker in the price range of a new LUX or CS1. I just don't see them holding there own in that price point of new with a current marker + electro trigger frame.

[renie]

new electronic frame emag style, but you could get away with a tiny pull solenoid if used with a ULT ;) have this on the back burner on one of my projects :)
also the option of a drop in valve replacement, but it would have to avoid current patents

[JKR]

The unknowns, of course, are how much R & D was done on other designs and advancements before the SP disaster stopped the Emag in its track and then sales began their decline. Existing technology is very good and cheap with the proliferation of manufacturing in China and other Asian nations. This obviously makes getting into the market that much harder. Couple that with the fact that paintballers seemingly don't care as much about quality now as they used to (changing demographics and player attrition) and it puts AGD in a tough position to get back into the electro market.

My strategy would be to re-release the Emag with a different body, perhaps the Tac One body, and work on lightening the battery pack. Given improved battery technology, I would think this possible. Perhaps turning the battery pack parallel to the barrel and enclosing it into a milled receiver that was "mil-simy" and had lots of mounting options for the users to compliment the Tac One body. Keep the ability to shoot mechanical and electro...always good to have options.

[athomas]

LIthium cell technology would greatly reduce the size and weight of the battery pack. You could also install a sear that has a greatly reduced weight. This would allow you to use the ULT or similar on-off and a smaller solenoid. The smaller solenoid would also contribute to a greatly reduced battery size/capacity requirement. I think you could make a very robust new emag design using the current valve.

[nak81783]

^^^This^^^

Keep backwards compatibility. Keep modularity/customization. We don't need another NEW marker that's simply a different arrangement of o-rings to produce the same result.

[justin82]

I cant help but think of the axe when i envision a refined electro mag every time I play with it. The quality isnt there but I wonder if that wasnt the direction it would have went if the SP fiasco didnt happen

[BigEvil]

new electronic frame emag style, but you could get away with a tiny pull solenoid if used with a ULT ;) have this on the back burner on one of my projects :)
also the option of a drop in valve replacement, but it would have to avoid current patents

The ULT has been very unreliable in being able to return the sear and reset a solenoid plunger in just about any electro or Pneumatic application in my experience. I have stopped recommending them for use in anything other than mechanical guns.

[Loguzzzzzz]

the ult has been very unreliable in being able to return the sear and reset a solenoid plunger in just about any electro or pneumatic application in my experience. I have stopped recommending them for use in anything other than mechanical guns.
qft!

[renie]

Agreed the ULT can be tricky to setup
Maybe a new on/off something in between that an an RT on/off?

[Spider-TW]

new electronic frame emag style, but you could get away with a tiny pull solenoid if used with a ULT ;) have this on the back burner on one of my projects :)
also the option of a drop in valve replacement, but it would have to avoid current patents


The ULT has been very unreliable in being able to return the sear and reset a solenoid plunger in just about any electro or Pneumatic application in my experience. I have stopped recommending them for use in anything other than mechanical guns.

I think I have something for that. I have to wring it out next month at the big game. I got some extra ULT pins from Tuna and have been tinkering. Menace would like it. I'm thinking it would help a devilmag arrangement, but I'm not sure about the wear life.

[BigEvil]

I have both Menace's and Pnuemager's On/off pin. Probably the way to go... but more testing needs to be done. Dan says there is some inherent flaw to the design...

[Spider-TW]

I have both Menace's and Pnuemager's On/off pin. Probably the way to go... but more testing needs to be done. Dan says there is some inherent flaw to the design...

I think those need a setup like the lvl10 bolt o-ring with sizers, they are very sensitive to fit and wear. Now that I say it, I might be able to do that. :confused: Like a combo of ULT and Lvl10 parts (a bit ugly tho). There's a home for those lvl10 sizers we never use.

The latest experiment is mostly a ULT in a classic valve. If it will reset reliably there, it should be good in a solenoid driven x-valve. If not, I'll have another trial of stuff to mark off the list. It seems to work well at home, but you know how that goes. I'm aiming for 6 bps on one finger, but I think shoot-down will not be far off of that. The reset is the goal though.

[Sandman]

The biggest issue in this entire discussion is money. Creating any part in any quantity is a daunting task in a market where a high number of sales is 25 units. Look at the thread sales of Cougar and Xmagterror when they sell bodies or frames and they struggle for weeks to get to 25 units. The market place is much smaller than most mag enthusiasts believe. The number of customers with available cash to buy is below the threshold of any serious investor.

That being said it takes small manufacturers like Luke to drive these types of products. Luke has been trying to source parts for an electro style frame for some time. I believe he is still unable to source what he needs at a price that works.

The cheapest approach is certainly the HyperFrame style. But like BE says, the ULT is unreliable and the stock on/off requires too much energy, thus the massive battery on E-mags. No one is going to invest in producing a battery intensive gun like the E-mag or X-mag again.
The low pressure approach is the best performance but is undoubtedly the most expensive approach. Adding an LPR is costly and then finding a reasonable way to mount and gas it is costly too.

All these idea's have been done in one way shape or form in a custom manner. Tuna, and BE have been leading those designs. The issue again is cost. Those frames sell in the secondary market for $400 to $500.

An E- Frame is something that is in on the table with AGD. But there are several major issues with either set-up. We will continue to work with the community designers and try and find a cost effective reasonable solution that will work the best.

Thanks to the people like Luke, BE, Cougar and Tuna maybe there will be a solution.

[luke]

That being said it takes small manufacturers like Luke to drive these types of products. Luke has been trying to source parts for an electro style frame for some time. I believe he is still unable to source what he needs at a price that works.


As of last week that was all sorted out. ;)

[BigEvil]

The biggest issue in this entire discussion is money. Creating any part in any quantity is a daunting task in a market where a high number of sales is 25 units. Look at the thread sales of Cougar and Xmagterror when they sell bodies or frames and they struggle for weeks to get to 25 units. The market place is much smaller than most mag enthusiasts believe. The number of customers with available cash to buy is below the threshold of any serious investor.

That being said it takes small manufacturers like Luke to drive these types of products. Luke has been trying to source parts for an electro style frame for some time. I believe he is still unable to source what he needs at a price that works.

The cheapest approach is certainly the HyperFrame style. But like BE says, the ULT is unreliable and the stock on/off requires too much energy, thus the massive battery on E-mags. No one is going to invest in producing a battery intensive gun like the E-mag or X-mag again.
The low pressure approach is the best performance but is undoubtedly the most expensive approach. Adding an LPR is costly and then finding a reasonable way to mount and gas it is costly too.

All these idea's have been done in one way shape or form in a custom manner. Tuna, and BE have been leading those designs. The issue again is cost. Those frames sell in the secondary market for $400 to $500.

An E- Frame is something that is in on the table with AGD. But there are several major issues with either set-up. We will continue to work with the community designers and try and find a cost effective reasonable solution that will work the best.

Thanks to the people like Luke, BE, Cougar and Tuna maybe there will be a solution.

Actually.. the Emag on/off doesn't need as much power as you might think. I have them in all of my hyperframe guns. And while it does eat 9v batteries pretty fast, a replacement 9v is still much cheaper than the emag battery... as a matter of fact I have been toying with the idea of setting up a standard emag lowers to run on a 9v just for giggles. (Maybe one day I will get around to it too :D )

[going_home]

The biggest issue in this entire discussion is money. Creating any part in any quantity is a daunting task in a market where a high number of sales is 25 units. Look at the thread sales of Cougar and Xmagterror when they sell bodies or frames and they struggle for weeks to get to 25 units. The market place is much smaller than most mag enthusiasts believe. The number of customers with available cash to buy is below the threshold of any serious investor.

That being said it takes small manufacturers like Luke to drive these types of products. Luke has been trying to source parts for an electro style frame for some time. I believe he is still unable to source what he needs at a price that works.

The cheapest approach is certainly the HyperFrame style. But like BE says, the ULT is unreliable and the stock on/off requires too much energy, thus the massive battery on E-mags. No one is going to invest in producing a battery intensive gun like the E-mag or X-mag again.
The low pressure approach is the best performance but is undoubtedly the most expensive approach. Adding an LPR is costly and then finding a reasonable way to mount and gas it is costly too.

All these idea's have been done in one way shape or form in a custom manner. Tuna, and BE have been leading those designs. The issue again is cost. Those frames sell in the secondary market for $400 to $500.

An E- Frame is something that is in on the table with AGD. But there are several major issues with either set-up. We will continue to work with the community designers and try and find a cost effective reasonable solution that will work the best.

Thanks to the people like Luke, BE, Cougar and Tuna maybe there will be a solution.


Thanks for the update.

I think pretty much most active AO members want to help AGD and spread the mag love.

;)

[GoatBoy]

Creating any part in any quantity is a daunting task in a market where a high number of sales is 25 units. Look at the thread sales of Cougar and Xmagterror when they sell bodies or frames and they struggle for weeks to get to 25 units.


Is it possible that Cougar and Xmagterror struggle to get to 25 units because they design things that only 25 people would want?

[Sandman]

Is it possible that Cougar and Xmagterror struggle to get to 25 units because they design things that only 25 people would want?

That is a very true possibility!
I personally believe those two individuals have made some very nice products and they have been well received.
But in recent history, whatever has been made in the way of AGD directed products, by whomever, typically only sells in relatively small quantities.
I wasn't picking on anyone's product in particular, just pointing out how small the market is.

[JKR]

Its a tough situation...you produce too much product relative to the market and you sit on inventory you can't sell. You produce too little product you probably won't generate any interest to grow demand.

Doing what I can to spread the word.

[cortexparasite]

I don't have anything useful to add, but I figured I'd voice my interest in a modern electronic implementation in a mag.

I've never been a woodsball guy; I love the speed and intensity of hyper/speedball and tournament style play. While a pneumatic trigger operation works, it certainly isn't capable of being tournament legal, at least in the current environment.

"Go shoot your Eclipse/Dye if you want speedball!" --- Yeah... but mags. :shooting:

[BigEvil]

Is it possible that Cougar and Xmagterror struggle to get to 25 units because they design things that only 25 people would want?


It's very tough to tell. The market is very tough to read these days. AO is dead. Sandman's goal I believe is to let the world know AGD is still in business and then to grow the market so that maybe we can get larger runs and more variety of products. I know certain people wont touch the mag market because it's too risky.

[BLachance75]

Is it possible that Cougar and Xmagterror struggle to get to 25 units because they design things that only 25 people would want?

I think it has more to do with producing niche products for an already small niche market. They both along with Luke produce great products but I believe the price is the biggest issue for most people that are already in this niche section of the market. I fully understand why they are priced where they are and I own/owned several of their products but I always have to rationalize paying the custom work price for something and I'm guessing others are the same.

[blackdeath1k]

I think it has more to do with producing niche products for an already small niche market. They both along with Luke produce great products but I believe the price is the biggest issue for most people that are already in this niche section of the market. I fully understand why they are priced where they are and I own/owned several of their products but I always have to rationalize paying the custom work price for something and I'm guessing others are the same.

Ding ding ding!!!!! We have a winner. I love Luke's new body. And understand the price. But I couldn't justify the price for my wants and needs. Custom bodies go for 200-400 each un anodized. Factor in 100 or up for anno and you are in for 300 on the low side for a custom body. 600 on the high side. Bang for the buck with my needs I couldn't justify it. And I'd venture to bet that's the issue with a lot of people. I was originally going to part a different marker to purchase one. But I ended up parting it for a geo3 instead.

[going_home]

I know certain people wont touch the mag market because it's too risky.

Thats why he is sitting on a bunch of cocker frames that arent selling up to expectations.

I get it, why he has to sell 100 of something, but its not a realistic number to hit quickly making aftermarket products.



Ding ding ding!!!!! We have a winner. I love Luke's new body. And understand the price. But I couldn't justify the price for my wants and needs. Custom bodies go for 200-400 each un anodized. Factor in 100 or up for anno and you are in for 300 on the low side for a custom body. 600 on the high side. Bang for the buck with my needs I couldn't justify it. And I'd venture to bet that's the issue with a lot of people. I was originally going to part a different marker to purchase one. But I ended up parting it for a geo3 instead.

If I'm not mistaken an anodized karta body and rail recently sold on ebay for 650.

So I dont necessarily think you are right on price being an issue.

Although selling anodized products is much easier than raw products.

Its true that a small number want raw for custom anodizing but the large majority dont want to deal with getting parts anodized.

I think a maybe a large part of aftermarket mag parts not selling in larger numbers is lack of anodizing.

;)

[blackdeath1k]

Thats why he is sitting on a bunch of cocker frames that arent selling up to expectations.

I get it, why he has to sell 100 of something, but its not a realistic number to hit quickly making aftermarket products.




If I'm not mistaken an anodized karta body and rail recently sold on ebay for 650.

So I dont necessarily think you are right on price being an issue.

Although selling anodized products is much easier than raw products.

Its true that a small number want raw for custom anodizing but the large majority dont want to deal with getting parts anodized.

I think a maybe a large part of aftermarket mag parts not selling in larger numbers is lack of anodizing.

;)

I'm not saying the lack of anno but the overall cost. If the machinists get them anodized then the price will be factored in. Customer will still be paying added cost. Just probably less than my min of 100 extra. I'm sure a single body here and there sell for high price. But that's not volume for someone to do business. Premium price mechanical markers are a nitch market plane and simple.

[vintage]

cost to me has always been part of AGD's problem. they have never had or been an entry level marker which is fine but to come out with a new marker now days i think it would need to come in around $400.00 in order to garner any level of sales which would require either having them made at a very low cost or relying on less profit and trying to sell more volume.

my $0.02

[Patron God of Pirates]

Not for me to say but I feel like AGD investing in an electro Mag is ice skating up a hill. The platform is less than optimal for it. Sounds like a lot of expensive compromises to force a Mag to be something it's not. Better, IMO, to market it as what it is, the fastest firing purely mechanical marker. Better to push what you are the best at then produce a really expensive crossover that under performs.

[athomas]

AGD's tagline should be "The most dominating mechanical marker since 1990, and still going."

[OneSelfLost]

I think a maybe a large part of aftermarket mag parts not selling in larger numbers is lack of anodizing.


Man, having to anodize a part is a pain in the butt. Not only is it costly, but those willing and able to do the work are few and far between. You spend a bunch on the part, send it out, spend more, wait 5 months (just long enough to lose some interest and start looking into other projects haha), and finally get the part back. That was a huge friggin' ordeal I will never put myself into again.

A mag is not an ideal electro platform, to me it's a tinkerers dream, which is not a marketable trait. Don't get me wrong, I swear by my mags and have spent literally 100+ hours on EP modifications. The time and expense was worth it because that's what I enjoy doing.

If AGD did jump back on the electro train, I'd lean more toward a set of EP lowers with a simple mechanism that anyone can work on. I think Luke is on the right track with what he's doing, but selling that to the masses would need AGD to sell it as an add-on, for a reasonable price (which i know is the difficult part). Hey Luke, keep up the good work. Sandman, talk to Luke :)

[GoatBoy]

Your challenge is to break this cycle:

Why is stuff expensive? Because there's no market for it.
why is there no market for it? Because it's expensive.

[Spider-TW]

Your challenge is to break this cycle:

Why is stuff expensive? Because there's no market for it.
why is there no market for it? Because it's expensive.

Price, quality, and speed. How to make an Automag slowly? :confused:

[rkjunior303]

When someone wants a sports car, they buy a ferrari, not a kit car. You'd have to R&D a whole new platform. Sexy wins, unfortunately.

[BigEvil]

When someone wants a sports car, they buy a ferrari, not a kit car. You'd have to R&D a whole new platform. Sexy wins, unfortunately.


In this case, think of it as the old 67 Mustang that you are swapping the V6 for a V8. :)

[oldironmudder]

In this case, think of it as the old 67 Mustang that you are swapping the V6 for a V8. :)

Umm it would be a straight six but either way... ya.

[Sandman]

When someone wants a sports car, they buy a ferrari, not a kit car.

Apparently everyone's a multimillionaire and can afford Ferrari's when choosing a sports car. I have to pick from a lessor selection.:(

[Spiritchaser]

I'd actually rather like a super 7 replica...

Oh, and if you argue that its not a sports car, you won't get me to agree... Unless possibly you argued that its not a sports car by virtue of being a race car...

[Spider-TW]

Umm it would be a straight six but either way... ya.

Or putting a six-pack and turbo on a 300 inline. It's a different kind of sexy.

[oldironmudder]

Or putting a six-pack and turbo on a 300 inline. It's a different kind of sexy.

mmmmmmm :headbang:

[blackdeath1k]

Apparently everyone's a multimillionaire and can afford Ferrari's when choosing a sports car. I have to pick from a lessor selection.:(

Lotus Elise would be my choice. And they can be had for a decent price.... alas I still don't own one.

[luke]

If I had a choice to drop ANY sum of money on a car or a list of 100 cars, my very first choice would be along these lines. Any modern high end sports car would land at the very bottom if they made the list at all. :)

My first car was a 65 Coupe and I've own several over the years, but a 68 or 69 fastback is still on my bucket list. I've owned a 71 and 72 FB but they were never my favorite looking cars, very interesting cars to drive though.

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wallpaperup.com%2Fuploads%2Fwa llpapers%2F2013%2F12%2F19%2F199550%2F3da5a5ec7f199 053da6b2fdbccfd15d7.jpg&f=1

[Sandman]

Hey Luke why did you crop me out of the picture of my car?:p LOL!

[going_home]

I liked some of the Shelbys but other than that I never cared for Mustangs at all.....

[p8ntbal4me]

And then there's the Mexican standoff on the pnue patents between DW and PTP, I seriously doubt AGD will want to go that route.

Patents have a shelf life.

Certain the PTP one is all dried up.

[going_home]

Patents have a shelf life.

Certain the PTP one is all dried up.

Hey guys look who's here !


')

[p8ntbal4me]

Hey guys look who's here !


')

Nothing to see here folks,.....




Move along

[going_home]

Nothing to see here folks,.....




Move along



Roads arent paved with good intentions .


;)

[luke]

Roads arent paved with good intentions . ;)

:) Not so sure, I was told as a kid that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" (lol)

[going_home]

:) Not so sure, I was told as a kid that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" (lol)

Inside joke, last I talked to him a couple Tunaballs ago p8ntbal4me ran a paving crew.


;)

[Flatliner333]

Well since this thread has gone off the rails a bit has everyone seen this car...this one kind of fell through the cracks but it is worth a gander .

https://youtu.be/GSv5S6Xpff0

[cockerpunk]

Lotus Elise would be my choice. And they can be had for a decent price.... alas I still don't own one.

id steer clear of the them. number 1, they arn't actually very good cars, you know, to use as a car. defrost doesn't work when its raining, AC, lol etc etc. number 2, they arn't cheap, the cheap ones are all salvage titles for body damage. number 3, the reason they are all salvage titles for body damage, is you bump the front or rear fiberglass clam-shell into something (like a curb), its wrecked, and the cost to get one and replace it, is more than the value of the car. and number 4, the 2zz-ge engine, isn't that great, and frankly isn't a great track motor. k series > 2zz-ge

that being said i own the even worse version of elise ... though mine is significantly faster than any elise ive seen at the track. if i was doing it all over again i'd buy an s2000, z06, or 997C2S. or if i wanted to put a bunch of work into a car, ecotec swapped miata.

[Ninjeff]

The best way for AGD to break the market is 2 fold:
1- Design a new entry level field marker that is easy to clean, and reliable. A simple elegant design to replace the thousands of Tippmann 98s the world over. My field would snap up 150 in a heart beat.

2- Use that money to make a 100% redesigned high end marker. No holding on to the past. Get the Tom K. spirit back with clever innovations, brilliant quality, and elegant design. Make it the kind of thing that isnt a flashy space gun, but such high quality people know its awesome.
Dont chase Ferrari, or Lambo, chase Porsche.

[Nobody]

The best way for AGD to break the market is 2 fold:
1- Design a new entry level field marker that is easy to clean, and reliable. A simple elegant design to replace the thousands of Tippmann 98s the world over. My field would snap up 150 in a heart beat.

You will never replace Tippmann or BT for field rentals. They are too far entrenched in the rental market for anyone to seriously contend for that place. But a mag is extrememly easy to clean. While still airred up, you can take a classic valve and dunk it in water. Being aired up means no water gets to the internals, and 1 screw to take out the valve can not be any simpler.


2- Use that money to make a 100% redesigned high end marker. No holding on to the past. Get the Tom K. spirit back with clever innovations, brilliant quality, and elegant design. Make it the kind of thing that isnt a flashy space gun, but such high quality people know its awesome.
Dont chase Ferrari, or Lambo, chase Porsche.

There is no money in high end guns. With high end guns you need a team, an place to play and advertising for that. Since teams change guns, players and sponsors like their socks and what peague is even still around, why chase that dragon?

The mag if anything was ahead of the curve in design. Single tube design, 2 screws holding it together. The problem was not with the design but lack of preceived "sexxy-ness". It just worked without any glitz or crazy milling or anno.

[BigEvil]

I played with my Ego mag this Sunday and am totally in love with it. Fast and smooth... slightly better than the Logic electro pneumatic frames IMO.. Efficiency wasn't great but I shot every ball I was carrying (200 + 6 pods) and had air leftover every time.

If I was going to make another electro frame, that would be the way I would go.

[blackdeath1k]

id steer clear of the them. number 1, they arn't actually very good cars, you know, to use as a car. defrost doesn't work when its raining, AC, lol etc etc. number 2, they arn't cheap, the cheap ones are all salvage titles for body damage. number 3, the reason they are all salvage titles for body damage, is you bump the front or rear fiberglass clam-shell into something (like a curb), its wrecked, and the cost to get one and replace it, is more than the value of the car. and number 4, the 2zz-ge engine, isn't that great, and frankly isn't a great track motor. k series > 2zz-ge

that being said i own the even worse version of elise ... though mine is significantly faster than any elise ive seen at the track. if i was doing it all over again i'd buy an s2000, z06, or 997C2S. or if i wanted to put a bunch of work into a car, ecotec swapped miata.

Never said it was a useful car. Basically a go-cart that is street legal. Still my favorate looking car other than the newest vette body style. But there are fare more vettes on the road than lotuses.

[Ninjeff]

Disagree. I run a field, and yes we (like pretty much everyone else) shoot 98s. But they are everywhere because there is no competition. None. Its either a tippmann, or tippmann derivitive. The rest (pirahnas, spyders etc) are a quality nightmare so all you can really do is get the 98s or the ft 12s.
An alternative by AGD would be amazing.

I know Mags are easy to clean because I've been using them for 20 years. If i could have a rental fleet of mags around the $100 price point i would.
Well, i'd supplement the 98s at first....


Anyway, i did more thinking and i wonder what a TK designed pump would look like given current manufacturing tech.

[bowcycle]

If i could have a rental fleet of mags around the $100 price point i would.
Well, i'd supplement the 98s at first....

Anyway, i did more thinking and i wonder what a TK designed pump would look like given current manufacturing tech.

I'm pretty sure you can get plenty of classics for around that $100 price. A big issue would be training people to shoot them.
Part of the reason the 98's are so popular is that they are about as close to "idiot proof" as you can get.

I don't know that even TK could do anything to a pump that hasn't already been done. The new ICD pumps are pretty sweet and you have the phantoms that are never going away. And Azodin is killing it in the low-end pump market.

[dboggs79]

As much as I hate to point you in this direction, have you considered using enmeys for field markers?

[Evil1]

AGD actually had a rental model of mags back in the 90's.....

[Beemer]

Please take the car talk to friendly corner, its off topic. Thank you.:cheers:

[Evil1]

Its a tough situation...you produce too much product relative to the market and you sit on inventory you can't sell. You produce too little product you probably won't generate any interest to grow demand.

Doing what I can to spread the word.

Didn't somebody on here build a mag like gun with an mq valve and an eblade a while back? Found a thread, but no pics or videos.

[Sandman]

Lots of good suggestions and discussion.

There will be no $100 to $150 new Automag. It could not be an Automag. There are lots of classics out there used for that.
For $100 you get a Gryphon and for $60 you get a Spyder Victor. They don't even compare on the same planet as a Mag.
Try asking Planet Eclipse or Dye to make a $100 gun.
Dye did make a $250 gun called the Rize. Have you seen it? It's nice for a cheap Ion style gun. But never gonna hold up like a Mag.
Planet Eclipse is soon to release their cheap gun version the Etha 2.0. It's releasing at $399 instead of the old price of $350.00. Still not a Mag.

Asking for the quality of a mag in $100 gun is kind of silly. You just can't have the quality of a Mag in a $100 gun. It's just not possible.

Hopefully Luke will be selling his new guns soon with electronics in them, and we'll get a good look at how it can be done.
I can't wait to see how it turns out.

In the mean time all the idea's are great! Every bit of brain storming helps to develop that one idea that will make it happen.
Keep up the good work!

[going_home]

Good post.

Encouraging for magdom to see some new innovation happening.

You guys see on the AGD site that you can now buy the latest loaders ?

And they now will once again work on Emags ?

Its getting interesting to say the least.

Maybe we need more than one mag enthusiast event a year ?

[Ninjeff]

As much as I hate to point you in this direction, have you considered using enmeys for field markers?

Yes, we have.

Listen, i feel like this kinda got bent out of shape, lol.

98s are fine but a pain in the ass to clean. The spyders and victors and bt's and pirahnas and all are cheap, but also....cheap. Easier to clean, but woefully ill designed to stand the rigors of a rental fleet beyond a year or two.

What i was suggesting was a side of the market that has experienced exactly zero innovation (enmy's and FT-12s aside) in the last...what...decade?
Mags are quality, but AGD is also known for innovation.
That's the only reason i brought it up.
I really feel like the entire damn industry has basically left fields out to dry when it comes to anything remotely resembling a good rental. ESPECIALLY if your field is like mine, and you clean them every day after renting. The Tippmann FT-12 was a really good effort, but due to a shoddy design in the rear hinge we had to stop using them (we've had 4 blow out -literally blow out the back hinge- while customers were using them.)
I was simply stating a way i thought AGD could innovate in a section of the industry largely left behind.

ANYWAY We have looked at the Enmy's and ordered one to test out. They work fine for a REC player, but i'm curious to see how they handle a RENTAL player day in and day out. Thanks for the suggestion dboggs!

[Doc Nickel]

1- Design a new entry level field marker that is easy to clean, and reliable. A simple elegant design to replace the thousands of Tippmann 98s the world over.

-Speaking as a person currently being paid to design markers and marker parts, I'd like to point out how absurd this statement is.

R&D- that is, research and development- is hugely expensive. If you're lucky, and you're a bright guy with lots of ideas, it's "only" expensive in time. If you're not all that bright- and I'm not saying "stupid", I'm saying "not a brilliant inventor"- then it's financially expensive, because then you have to HIRE a brilliant inventor or two.

And either way, it's also financially expensive to produce a new design. These days it's matter of CAD programming a virtual design, manufacturing a prototype to that design, testing it, altering the CAD, making another prototype, testing that, and so on. Not even Tom got it right on the first try.

And that assumes you already have a design- the marker you're asking for doesn't yet exist, which means you have to invent it. And THAT is only the first of many hurdles, and arguably the largest.

Design a marker that isn't a blow-forward, blowback, stacked-valve, spooler or autococker, isn't Nelson-based, Sheridan based or Matrix based, doesn't infringe on any current patent, isn't a clone of an existing marker (even oddballs like the EPIC, Alien or Nova) and yet is cheap, easy to service, very reliable and can be manufactured for less than $60 each. (Which is how much they'd have to cost to have a street value of $100, which is roughly what you can get a Tippmann for.)

That's a REALLY tall order, and would literally cost a company millions to even try. For example, forgetting R&D costs, to get a marker anywhere close to that cheap per unit, your first run would have to be at least 100,000 units, preferably twice that. If you could, somehow, get it down to $60 a unit, that's still six to twelve million in production costs- to say nothing of advertising, setting up dealer networks, etc.


2- Use that money to make a 100% redesigned high end marker. No holding on to the past. Get the Tom K. spirit back with clever innovations, brilliant quality, and elegant design. Make it the kind of thing that isnt a flashy space gun, but such high quality people know its awesome.

-Again, it's just that easy. :)

Think of it this way: Invent us a movie. I mean, right here and now, come up with a reasonably detailed premise for a movie. A unique and interesting new movie, that isn't a sequel, isn't a superhero movie, doesn't use an existing popular, historical or stock character, isn't a war movie, an action movie, a chase movie, a love story, a spy thriller, isn't based off an existing book, isn't "inspired by a true story", isn't based in an existing "universe", doesn't contain any ninjas, knights, zombies, monsters, cowboys, robots, time-travellers, martial-arts masters, loners, stoners or hookers with a heart of gold, hasn't already been done and would have enough mass-market appeal to at least double its production costs at the box office.

That's pretty much what you're asking. You're the boss saying "make me something new and amazing, make it perfect the first time out the gate, and have the finished version on my desk first thing in the morning.". :)

Doc.

[Ninjeff]

So lets have a discussion where we ponder what AGD could do to break back in to the industry and **** on any suggestion that isn't "just make Automags great again"

And i wasn't what i was asking.
NO where did i say this:
"make me something new and amazing, make it perfect the first time out the gate, and have the finished version on my desk first thing in the morning."

I don't know where you came up with this concept that I was asking for some revolutionary new paintball gun tech.

[going_home]

I think fields would pay $250-$300 for a ULE LVL10 classic rental mag.

They'd just buy 10 at a time instead of 25.

Nothing wrong with discussion at all.

Eventually an idea thrown up against the wall will stick.


;)

[Doc Nickel]

So lets have a discussion where we ponder what AGD could do to break back in to the industry and **** on any suggestion that isn't "just make Automags great again"

-You misunderstand. Your statement that I originally quoted basically said "well, just invent an all-new gun!" which you followed up with "well, just invent an all new high end gun!"

My reply, as rambling as it was, was simply that it's not that easy. Inventing something new is very, very hard, as a matter of fact.

as Sandman notes, a $100 entry-level marker wouldn't be an Automag. An Automag simply cannot be made for $100, even if they had the cheapest Chinese factory crapping out the parts and converted most of the design to plastic. That means a "$100 AGD gun"- which is what you're asking for when you call for a Tippmann replacement- would have to be something new, something not an Automag.

So, how do we make it? Is it a spooler, like an Ion or a Vibe? A blowback like a Spyder or a Tippmann? A rammer like an Etek or Ego?

AGD is, at the moment, just two guys who, from what it sounds like, are running the company in their spare time. Who is going to design this gun, who is going to pay to have the prototypes made, and who will finance the first production run?

I'm not "****"-ing on anything. I'm pointing out the reality of the situation.


I don't know where you came up with this concept that I was asking for some revolutionary new paintball gun tech.

-I got that right here: "1- Design a new entry level field marker that is easy to clean, and reliable. A simple elegant design to replace the thousands of Tippmann 98s the world over."

To "replace" Tippmanns, the marker would have to wholesale for less than $100- in some cases, probably less than $80. The only way to do that is to have a very simple, dirt-cheap design, which means no built-in air pressure regulators, no stainless steel, and a LOT of die-cast potmetal and injection-molded plastic.

"Easy to clean" means not a spooler, and 'reliable' means not a Spyder style blowback.

So what do you suggest we build? We can't just copy somebody else's existing gun, because none of them are inexpensive, reliable or easy to clean. Tippmann's been around for over 30 years, and has been the dominant rental marker for at least 20 of those. Nobody's come along with a Tippmann-beater yet. Not Smart Parts, not DYE, not Bob Long, not Indian Creek, not even Kingman or Ariakon.

Which means your proposed gun needs an all-new design with revolutionary new tech.

Doc.

[Ninjeff]

If i knew what to build I'd be building them! I don't design paintball guns, i run a paintball field.
Listen, the discussion at hand was different ways for AGD to break back in to the sport. Instead of offering the same suggestions i suggested a an area of the industry no one is paying attention to. There are what twenty mid to high end guns? and....3 MAYBE 4 entry level guns, and really only 2 rental fleet style guns.

Tippmann was SO close with the FT-12. SO CLOSE. But the design had/has a fatal flaw in it. The pot metal simply blows out in the back hinge. Like explodes while being shot by a customer. Doesn't happen to all of them, but enough that we stopped using them.

@Sandman hey, i get it, if you don't want to have AGD focus down market that's fine! I've been an AGD fan and loyalist for 20 years. Been shooting them in every tournament i've played except one. Still use them, still buy them. So as a PLAYER I'm just excited for anything new by AGD.

Now, as a business manager I was simply tossing out an idea that no one had tossed out yet. Its an area i feel is lacking in the industry. I know AGD can do rentals. Fox Creek upstate has had them for years. That being said i wouldn't expect an "Automag", i was just thinking something new is all. No one is paying attention to that side of the industry.
But, i understand that its not something you'd like AGD to do or focus on. That's cool too.

[Doc Nickel]

If i knew what to build I'd be building them!

-That was kind of exactly my point. :D Basically a good portion of this thread has been little more than telling AGD to run out and invent a brand-new super-popular marker. :)


Listen, the discussion at hand was different ways for AGD to break back in to the sport.

-I realize that. But telling them to invent, develop and produce an all-new gun isn't necessarily a viable answer. It's like saying the way to win a paintball game is to shoot the other guy before he shoots you. :)

Yes, that's exactly true- but it's the HOW part where it starts getting tricky. That was my point.


Instead of offering the same suggestions i suggested a an area of the industry no one is paying attention to.

-What, the newbie and rental markets? The reason "nobody" (well, besides Tippmann, BT, Kingman, GOG, Azodin and JT, etc.) pays any attention to that market is basically because it's literally almost impossible to compete with Tippmann and Kingman. Both have well-established distribution lines, and can manufacture on economies of scale that virtually no start-up can match.

And that's the other unspoken part of the problem: We don't have the market anymore- at least, not what we used to. Prior to the 2007 recession, paintball as a sport and industry was going through double-digit growth. That is, increasing by 10% or more every year. While that was great news for the manufacturers, and even good news for start-ups who could find a ready market for virtually any gun they wanted to build, it simply couldn't last. The economists call that a "bubble".

Even today, nearly ten years after that bubble popped, we, as a sport and industry, are still not back up to anything close to the sales or participation numbers we saw back then. And the players we do have don't have as much disposable cash as they used to.

That's a very tough market even for established names like DYE and Tippmann, both of which have brought out models that flopped hard, and cost them millions.

To bring a new gun to the market today would cost at least $100K, probably closer to a quarter-million. I know of a couple start-ups that burned through that kind of money, produced good product, and still failed.

I'm not saying there's "no hope" for AGD. On the contrary, they still have some good IP and designs, and a salable product. But the road back to where they stood back in 2002 or 2004 or so, is going to be long, hard and expensive.

Doc.

[Ninjeff]

I know, I've seen the downturn.
Pre-2007ish we were getting 3k people a year with almost no problem. There were days we ran out of rental equipment entirely and had to start handing out personal equipment. (nothing like seeing the look on a 13 year old's face when he shoot an e-mag for the first time)

Now a days we struggle to get 2k people a year. That's nothing for big metro fields like CPX in Chicago and such, but we are the "standard size" paintball field. Its been really tough and since industry consolidation (really we're down to what...2 major parent companies now?) the lack of innovation has been hurting the sport from the industry side as well as the sport not marketing well to the new player side.
Saw a brief up-tick in interest with the popularity of mil-sim but that didn't sustain very long.

I'm sure its even harder for AGD since they've been a non-entity to the regular player for more than a decade. Even though in my mind they're still the best, there is a whole generation of new players who've never seen an Automag in the wild.
Still without a new gun of SOME type (high end, middle of the road, mil-sim, rental, pump, electro, pnuematic...whatever) i don't see any way AGD gets any more attention in the industry. OTHER than some serious PR work and expositions with current AGD stuff.
Right now AGD excitement is its own echo chamber.

Still, some cool 1 of ___ guns with some interesting features would make a bit of a splash i suppose. Get some of the great builders together to come up with some AGD Authorized Automags. Like an all Carbon Fiber Super Light Weight Mag and make only 100 of them.
Get AGD to come up with a nice electro frame (something like the DYE frame in sexiness) and make some cool limited edition mags. That would generate some excitement.

[Nobody]

Nice to see Doc in here as these types of questions were always bantered about on the Tinker's Guild of old.

Now, it's easy to go spend other people's money & time, that is the major issue that Doc specifically is bringing up. In an industry that now is very hit or miss, where you have to hit a home run the first time out. With R&D where it is in cost, trying to predict what and where the industry is at or going to is near impossible, you as a business really need to hedge bets to at least break even so you don't loose your shirt, so you can keep the lights on for the next project.

Paintball also has a weird path of not doing the logical thing. Even a rental mag fleet with L10 kits (which is an expensive proposition in itself) would be a superior gun over a rental Tippmann, but because the Tippmann is a well established product, where parts are cheap and plentiful, anyone can fix them and maintenance is super simple. Mags though simple and easy are a way different maintenance path. Though simple for those that are used to them, it is a change.

Now, even with a new gun, where are people going to see it? That in itself is the rub. You can have the best product in the world but if you don't have a means to show them, get them out into the world, then it is useless. Its also a double edged sword. If you have people selling the product, you need to have production up to be able to supply the houses with products on hand and to be able to ship to them or drop ship products for them. Again, money is the overbearing factor here. Unless you have someone who is established and can get product made, where its not going to happen.

Just as you a mid sized field but are having trouble getting people to you, that is the same in the gun manufacturing and part stores. Before some parts where just there and could and did need improvements over stock. Now, where you have guns that don't need barrels, don't need even ASAs; the nouveaux modularity of the mag when it was big, has been passed by. Players now don't or can't put a gun together, and to a point they don't need to anymore, but there isn't a need to anymore, since all other manufacturer does it for them. Innovation isn't going to do that. Its excitement of the product or field that brings the people out. Its letting the world know you are there, that brings them back.

We all here want and wish that AGD was talked about like PE, like Empire; but till a few things fall in, of which i can not say, just being alive for as long as AGD has been is testament to the foundations that TK built upon.having a product that for years will work.

[Sandman]

Still, some cool 1 of ___ guns with some interesting features would make a bit of a splash i suppose. Get some of the great builders together to come up with some AGD Authorized Automags. Like an all Carbon Fiber Super Light Weight Mag and make only 100 of them.
Get AGD to come up with a nice electro frame (something like the DYE frame in sexiness) and make some cool limited edition mags. That would generate some excitement.

I think we(AGD) and the community are doing exactly this already...except the 100 guns parts... change that to ten...
Xmagterror has been selling CF bodies....I didn't get in on that run, but next time for sure. He's also selling Uni-bodies.
Luke is making a totally custom gun with an electronic trigger. Keith is making custom frames...Doc makes barrel inserts....
I just had nummech redesign the Boss for their feedneck just for AGD guns. Inceptions just made a feedneck.
AGD made some custom guns, SandFX and OG........ There are several others making cool custom pieces for mags.

All in all we have nice selection of custom products and parts made for mags. Probably more than DYE and PE in reality. What custom part can you buy for a CS1? or an M2?

Albeit very small, the mag community is ok. It needs some TLC to help it grow a bit more. I have no expectation of ever growing back to any truly significant numbers, but I would like to grow to the point where we feel we can continue to run valves and build guns without wondering if we could ever sell them. The balance of that reality is ever too close.

I appreciate the passion shown here in this thread. Makes it worth it to spend the time I do in keeping mags alive.

[Ninjeff]

AGD could always leverage the brilliance of the x-valve/level 10 combo that it absolutely brilliant.
Advertise it like the "core" that allows you to build anything kind of gun you might want. Show off everything from a tac/milsim mag to a carbon mag to the crazy bodies, electros, pnuemags, pump mags all with this one brilliant common denominator. No batteries needed either! No crazy boards to break or anything.
Redo that TK tongue-in-breach bit from years back showing that its super easy on paint. You can build anything with it!

Additionally, i'd like to see AGD "get out" more. Get to Legends at CPX right down the road, hit up the big games and big events in the state. Hell, come on down to Bloomington IL for our Spring Pump Event every spring. Sure, AGD doesn't field a pump officially, but an entire weekend of pump only play attracts one to two hundred "old schoolers" and they're ALWAYS receptive to new tech from old companies. We had the new ICD pump at this years SPE and the table was PACKED with people looking at it.
AGD needs to get out there more, remind people they're still around and kicking. Shake some hands, meet the people and show off what AGD already has to offer and maybe get some feedback about what the players are looking for.

Wouldn't take much $$ to do. We have TONS of hood stuff around here in Illinois and Chicago. Lots of good fields. Start local, grow from there.

[Ninjeff]

This is precisely what i was saying (or meaning to say, if i wasnt clear).

We (the small AGD community) know about all this amazing stuff, but players at large don't. And you're right there is ZERO gun customization now-a-days and a lot of folks are saddened by that. I think getting AGD back out there on scene and showing off the amazing stuff all the builders make is a cool and cost effective way to grow our little community.
Not only is the quality offered second to none, but just TRY and find another gun you can make 100% your own now a days!

[blackdeath1k]

This is precisely what i was saying (or meaning to say, if i wasnt clear).

We (the small AGD community) know about all this amazing stuff, but players at large don't. And you're right there is ZERO gun customization now-a-days and a lot of folks are saddened by that. I think getting AGD back out there on scene and showing off the amazing stuff all the builders make is a cool and cost effective way to grow our little community.
Not only is the quality offered second to none, but just TRY and find another gun you can make 100% your own now a days!

Really that is all just marketing plain and simple. Don't get me wrong. I'm no marketer. But as you point out. Between Chicago area and NW IN there are a lot of fancy big fields with some BIG games that could be capitalized on. Sell the marker on its customizability.

[Sandman]

Didn't God rest on the 7th day?....and I'm pretty sure he never created an 8th....

"Getting out" is much tougher and costly than you think. I'd love to get out and certainly do want to hit some events in 2017.
I won't make promises because it's just too uncertain, but the attempt and thought will be there.

Gotta hook up with some of those other Uber companies, buy them a beer, and see if they will give me a corner to sit in. :cheers:

[Doc Nickel]

Still, some cool 1 of ___ guns with some interesting features would make a bit of a splash i suppose. [snip]Get AGD to come up with a nice electro frame (something like the DYE frame in sexiness) and make some cool limited edition mags. That would generate some excitement.

-They did. And unfortunately, that told us more than we really wanted to know about the state of AGD today.

Sandman released six one-off custom models almost two months ago. Had he done that in 2006, or even 2004, all six would have sold in literally minutes. In reality, today, it took two months to sell just four of them.

Worse, the reaction from the PBNation crowd was, at best, "meh". Most complained that they were "old technology", that they were "overpriced" (despite the fact that many DYE and PE products cost more than the 'Mags did) and of course the old bits about it being too heavy, or has a poor trigger feel, or it's just "ew, a mechanical trigger?!?"

Whether you feel those sentiments are right or wrong, they're still there, and still have a significant effect on sales and marketing.

One of those startups I mentioned did something similar: They burned through a rumored $150K in angel-investor money, produced the first run of guns and had decent sales for a while- until the guns started breaking down, often right out of the box. I have no idea where the money went- I only hear what they post online- but they actually had to launch a Kickstarter to build some money back up in order to facilitate repairs.

The Kickstarter failed miserably, barely earning something like 10% of the target amount.

If it were me, that right there would have been a Big Red Flag, a "we need to sit down and seriously rethink this entire proposition" type moment.


Now, even with a new gun, where are people going to see it? That in itself is the rub. You can have the best product in the world but if you don't have a means to show them, get them out into the world, then it is useless.

-That's a huge hurdle right there. We no longer have any magazines, of course TV and newspapers are either not targeted enough or too expensive or both, which leaves only the internet and actually going to events. Those are pretty much our only two sources of advertising.

The internet is relatively cheap, but also getting more and more diluted. PBN is still something of a mover and shaker, but even their traffic is down from where it used to be. You can buy a banner ad, but a significant percentage of people run ad-blockers. Lots of people are bailing PBN in favor of specialized Facebook pages- and advertising on those pages is surprisingly expensive. Worse, "word of mouth"- or what we call "viral" today- doesn't work anywhere near as well as it used to. It's now very rare for somebody to post a "hey, did you see this?" kind of thing on another board, unless it's outrageously funny, or just plain outrageous.

Speaking personally, I'm a rather wide-ranging consumer of online forums- at least, I am when I have the time :) -but some of the latest gear? Like the new Spire loader and GTek? I have yet to see those even mentioned anywhere but on PBN.

To make advertising on the 'net work, you basically have to have a full-time ad guy, buying and maintaining banner ads, ad buys (like the PBN front page thing) and keeping up on your Facebook and email contacts.

The other option, travelling to events, is hugely expensive. Air travel, hotel rooms for several nights, shipping product, or driving to an event. If it's a big tourney, there's booth fees and entry/vendor fees on top of that. For something like the World Cup, I've heard of small vendors- not even guys like SP or DYE- spending $5K to have a booth there. (Travel, car rental, hotel, various transport costs, booth fees, etc.)


And you're right there is ZERO gun customization now-a-days and a lot of folks are saddened by that.

-It's not quite zero, but yeah, compared to what it used to be, it might as well be.

Doc.

[Evil1]

Sorry if this was covered already, but didn't get a chance to read all replies. Anybody that's in this thread that's played for at least a decade should know that 99% of new designs of paintball guns fail miserably. Ice epics, nova 700, cyber 9000, evil omen, satco, at-85, etc. All a flash in the pan. But I remember the first time I shot an angel in 97, the thing was a blender and I thought it would never amount to nothing. Innovation is good, but agd is not in the position to be innovative much past existing designs in the market as it stands.

[Ninjeff]

I admit i did not realize how long it took for AGD to sell those new guns. It sped around my facebook page like lightning, and for the first time i had guys on my field team asking me about Mags and the team Captain even built one.
However, I suppose I'm just as far in the AGD echo chamber as anyone else.
I know it spurred me to build another Mag. Got me looking again because i haven't actually OWNED a paintball gun in years (run a paintball field they said, play paintball all the time they said lol)

I suppose my suggestions aren't feasible. Too bad. :(
But, no one ever said i wasn't a helpless optimist!

Sandman i will personally drive the two hours to Chicago pick you and any AGD stuff up in my truck, drive you down here and put you up for a night in a hotel (even feed you!) to get AGD back out on the scene! LMAO!

Its definitely odd running a field, on one hand I'm far more "in tune" with the sport than a lot of players, but oddly really out of tune with some other stuff. I really thought that AGD news was a much bigger deal than it was, and i tend to avoid PBN unless advertising an event. I mostly roll around MCB and just started coming back here because i really want to build a new gun. Now this discussion has me kicking around some ideas in my head and that's fun at any rate.

[Ninjeff]

-
The other option, travelling to events, is hugely expensive. Air travel, hotel rooms for several nights, shipping product, or driving to an event. If it's a big tourney, there's booth fees and entry/vendor fees on top of that. For something like the World Cup, I've heard of small vendors- not even guys like SP or DYE- spending $5K to have a booth there. (Travel, car rental, hotel, various transport costs, booth fees, etc.)

Doc.

Yea, things like World Cup are a huge cost. Still, there are a lot of really good fields around the midwest to dip the toes in for little to no cost. Most within a few hours drive time. I'm not sure what CPX is charging for vendor stuff now (probably a lot at Legends) but you also have Paintball Explosion, Ft Knox paintball in Indiana (great guys and a great field) Pekin Paintball downstate that runs some good tournaments Sudden Impact Paintball downstate that does some great events, Fox paintball which has always had ties to AGD, Xtreme Paintball further south that has some great folks, Wildcat paintball who has some great folks.....
I'm sure most of us around the area would be happy to help out and host a spot at a Big Game. Might not sell a lot, but it gets some buzz generated. Maybe.
Start with "AGD IS STILL HERE YOU GUYS!" and spin from there maybe.

Or not. Hell i dont know. You guys have me questioning everything i'm thinking now. lol

[Nobody]

Sorry if this was covered already, but didn't get a chance to read all replies. Anybody that's in this thread that's played for at least a decade should know that 99% of new designs of paintball guns fail miserably. Ice epics, nova 700, cyber 9000, evil omen, satco, at-85, etc. All a flash in the pan. But I remember the first time I shot an angel in 97, the thing was a blender and I thought it would never amount to nothing. Innovation is good, but agd is not in the position to be innovative much past existing designs in the market as it stands.

Only if you knew something. Leagal issues with the Satco prevented it come even being released. The Nova 700, eventually morphed into the Matrix/spool designs of today. The Cyber 9000, was nothing more than the PVI shocker but with a host of far reaching add-ons that did not work as intended. The Ice Epic, was worthy (and you can still buy them new, now) but needed some refinements to the design to make it viable, but i believe that the valve/actuation is physically limited in pure RoF.

As for the Angel, when you have the capabilities of firing faster than you can feed the gun, you'll have a blender no matter what (hey, isn't this why TK with the help of Simon, help develop the warp?). Have a loader that can keep up with it and no problems.

[Ninjeff]

The Evil Omen did "ok" until the demise of Evil didnt it?

[cudamelland]

"Additionally, i'd like to see AGD "get out" more. Get to Legends at CPX right down the road, hit up the big games and big events in the state."

This might be possible. Maybe not for Sandman, but as AO. Last time i was at Super Game in Oregon (a big game) Custom Cockers had a booth. They didn't have anything for sale they just talked to everyone walking by and helped tech cockers all weekend. We have members everywhere it might be possible to set something up in big events. IDK just food for thought

[Evil1]

Only if you knew something. Leagal issues with the Satco prevented it come even being released. The Nova 700, eventually morphed into the Matrix/spool designs of today. The Cyber 9000, was nothing more than the PVI shocker but with a host of far reaching add-ons that did not work as intended. The Ice Epic, was worthy (and you can still buy them new, now) but needed some refinements to the design to make it viable, but i believe that the valve/actuation is physically limited in pure RoF.

As for the Angel, when you have the capabilities of firing faster than you can feed the gun, you'll have a blender no matter what (hey, isn't this why TK with the help of Simon, help develop the warp?). Have a loader that can keep up with it and no problems.

Yes. But none of these new innovative designs really took off with the originators. With agd being as small as it already is, a "failure" could spell it's end. I know all about the markers I stated and what they may have turned into. I have never seen a working nova 700 or an ice epic. The two evil omens I saw in person were having issues. All I was saying is that alot of paintball companies went under because of "innovation"....

[Evil1]

Only if you knew something. Leagal issues with the Satco prevented it come even being released. The Nova 700, eventually morphed into the Matrix/spool designs of today. The Cyber 9000, was nothing more than the PVI shocker but with a host of far reaching add-ons that did not work as intended. The Ice Epic, was worthy (and you can still buy them new, now) but needed some refinements to the design to make it viable, but i believe that the valve/actuation is physically limited in pure RoF.

As for the Angel, when you have the capabilities of firing faster than you can feed the gun, you'll have a blender no matter what (hey, isn't this why TK with the help of Simon, help develop the warp?). Have a loader that can keep up with it and no problems.

And even warp feeds. As good as they are, I have rarely seen them widely used aside from here.

[going_home]

Isnt Youtube free ?

Theres your free advertising.

Need Tim and all the OG guns to go to an event and send a camera man to upload 4 or 5 Youtubes from every event.

Several weeks before the event start hyping it on Youtube.

With a little planning and a decent cell phone camera and a designated spokesman interest and sales will increase.

As long as there are level 10's there will be mag techs needed.

;)

[Doc Nickel]

Anybody that's in this thread that's played for at least a decade should know that 99% of new designs of paintball guns fail miserably. Ice epics, nova 700, cyber 9000, evil omen, satco, at-85, etc. All a flash in the pan.

-Well, that's not really fair, as you pretty much picked a handful of boutique-made, niche-market guns that were considered oddball even back when they were new.

The Cyber 9000 didn't fail so much as the company itself failed. SP had bankrupted PVI over the original Shocker, and so PVI later tried to bring a fresh version of the design out as the C9K. But they were operating on a bare shoestring, and it was no easier to being an entire marker to light back then than it is now. I suspect they shopped the design around, but couldn't find a company willing to foot the production bill. (And there were rumors that SP was telling dealers that if they carried the C9K, SP would pull their inventory- and even back then SP was an 800-pound gorilla.)

The Epic was another boutique-made niche-market gun. There was never anything particularly exciting about the gun- other than it was "boltless"- and the maker never managed to find anyone to carry and distribute it. As noted above, supposedly you can order a new one even today, although I strongly suspect he hasn't actually manufactured any new parts in probably 10 years.

The SATCO was dead before it was even properly born, but it wasn't an issue with the gun itself, it was company troubles that may have included the death of one of the major people involved.

The AT-85 was actually quite successful for a while, but it was also not really intended to be a paintball gun, as much as it was a military and police training tool. And eventually, the delicate mechanical full-auto and chain-drive systems just proved to fragile. Out of all the ones you listed, this one was probably one of the only ones that "failed"- after about ten years- for mechanical reasons.

More apt suggestions might be guns like the Sheridan Equalizer. Had a lot going for it, but was strangled by a couple of corporate, boardroom-mandated changes, and despite having the backing of Benjamin-Sheridan (Benjamin having been around since something like 1890, so not exactly a flash-in-the-pan) still crashed in flames.

But then again, try to think of a current, modern marker, that's still being produced, that even existed back in 2000. Only one I can think of is the Model 98. Angel's gone, 'Mags are gone, 'Cockers are gone, Intimidators have morphed into the C6R (sort of) Matrixes have evolved into the current M2 (again, sort of) anything Indian Creek, AKA or Sheridan is all gone... the list goes on.

Doc.

[Doc Nickel]

Still, there are a lot of really good fields around the midwest to dip the toes in for little to no cost. Most within a few hours drive time.

-It's not just booth fees. It's spending an entire weekend travelling, getting a hotel room, having to get time off from work (it sounds like the AGD guys have day jobs) and so on. And you can't necessarily do it in a small economy car either- you need to pack a tent, chairs, tables, banners, product, laptops and phones, change of clothes, all that sort of thing.

Put it this way- get off work at 5:00 pm, head home, pack the truck, and start driving to an event 500 miles away. Get to the local hotel at 3 am, sack out 'til 7 am, drive to the event, set up the booth, sit around in the booth for 12 hours, pack the booth back into the truck, head back to the hotel, sleep until 7 am the next day, set up the booth again, sit around for 10 hours, pack again, drive 10 hours home, go straight to bed, then get up at 8:00 am to go back to work.

Do that ten or twelve times in a summer and you're pretty much wasted and getting sick of it. And if each one costs you only $500 each time (just gas and hotel can cost that much, easy) that starts adding up to some significant cash.

Yes, it can be worthwhile if you have the product to sell and are looking to get your name out there. But that's a lot of time and effort if all you're doing is showing up with parts and accessories for markers that almost nobody at those events even owns.

Doc.

[Doc Nickel]

Isnt Youtube free? Theres your free advertising.

-I have five videos on YouTube (thanks to a YT glitch, under two different names.) Ever seen any of them?

YouTube is not advertising. It only gives you a free and easy place to host a video. YouTube does NOT do any kind of promoting or promotional of your video. IF- and that's a big IF- your video starts "going viral" and you start, as they say, "trending"- which these days means you're getting hundreds of thousands of pageviews a day, if not per hour- you might find it being posted to the main page.

But throw up a new video about an Automag? That'll be jammed back 20 pages in on the search results until it's seen 60K page views.

The way to use a video is to post it, and THEN you start spamming the URL around to get people to go watch it.

Doc.

[Ninjeff]

I feel like you missed my entire post about all the fields within 2 hours of Chicago.
All of which have Scenario Events and Big Games and even entire WEEKENDS dedicated to "old school" paintball.

Yea, I mean, I get your point man. I work a full time 40 hour week too. Then I work/manage a paintball field on the weekends. Every weekend. Saturday and Sunday for 9 months of the year, and have for 10 years. That's 10 years of no weekends in the spring, summer, and fall. All because i love the sport and turned a hobby into a job.

Yea, I get it man, **** is tough.

Nothing will every change if everyone sits around and find all reasons it shouldn't.
So far I'm hearing, AGD shouldn't do a high end gun, a mid level gun, or a rental gun. No pumps,no electro, no new designs, no innovation, no marketing, and no effort to contact or meet players out side of this forum which only has players that already know about AGD and so don't need sold on the idea. I mean, seriously. Pack up some of those sexy mags and get them in the hands of players for a game or two. Quality DOES shoot straight so let them see it and feel it and shoot it. I never said go to world cup or drive 500 miles. I said find some fields in the area of AGD, get in contact with them, and find out if you can bring some gear and rub elbows with the players. I cant think of a single midsize field that wouldn't let you toss up a pop-up and a table and show the players your gear during a big game or scenario event. We not only let you, we ENCOURAGE it. Want people to know AGD is still around? Get out there and say "hi" then! And maybe you don't sell all those mags in 2 minutes like 10 years ago, but maybe you sell them in 2 months instead of 4.

Get out there, say hi, play paintball. Have fun. Remember why this is good stuff to begin with.

[Doc Nickel]

So far I'm hearing, AGD shouldn't do a high end gun, a mid level gun, or a rental gun. No pumps,no electro, no new designs, no innovation, no marketing, and no effort to contact or meet players out side of this forum which only has players that already know about AGD and so don't need sold on the idea.

-You're missing the point. I'm not giving an "excuse" why it "can't" happen, I'm explaining why it hasn't happened.

At no point did I say AGD shouldn't build X gun, I'm pointing out solid and realistic reasons why they haven't, and the hurdles they will face when they try. Hey, I would LOVE to see AGD come out with each and every one of those, and I'd love to see them all sell like hotcakes. Trust me, I'm a fan. I have three 'Mags myself, I have a customer's Pneumag on the table as we speak, I just helped drag a buddy back into the sport by helping set him up with a TAC-1 he got for a great price, and I've been selling my 'Cocker-thread barrel adapters for the 'Mag since 2004.

But, I'm also a machinist, a gun designer, a short-run production manufacturer, and at the moment, a paid R&D tech. I am by no means an expert, but I do have a little more insight than most into just what it takes to design, prototype, build, test, produce and market paintball gear.

As I've said a couple of times now, designing, prototyping and building a gun is fabulously expensive in both time and money. From what I understand, AGD is comprised of two guys, both of whom apparently work regular day jobs, and handle the various company operations in their spare time. I'm also given to understand that AGD does not currently make much income from sales at the moment.

So you're asking them to spend time they don't have, and money they don't have, to build a gun that hasn't even been designed.

Now, that said, if any one of those three things can be changed, then the game will change.


I mean, seriously. Pack up some of those sexy mags and get them in the hands of players for a game or two. Quality DOES shoot straight so let them see it and feel it and shoot it.

-Showing off a sample does no good if you have little or no product to sell.

Doc.

[Nobody]

A local field, would of course allow anyone to put up a popup and have a table. The field brings the people, and people come to the field. But that is not "LIVING LEGENDS". You try to put up a popup in the vendor area and the staff nazis, will tell you to pull it down. Space is money to a major event like that. Those spaces are worth money, because you are expecting 2000 people that weekend, not 200. The field gets the people there, vendors come to the field, only so many spaces available so be able to sell, and you as a vendor/dealler are literally PAYING for the privilege of having a chance to be at that event.

Honestly for a big game event, there are a ton of industry people out there. All of the companies are there or just about. Again, the names, the event, the companies, all bring the people there:and the field for hosting it wants their piece of the pie. If you can't charge at the door, then they will change where they can.

Yes, word of mouth can bring some people to you. Yes, talking ball will and does happen, but that takes time. Would anyone go there if they can just talk? Fun yes, but time is money. With an operation as small as AGD is; that time could be banked with families, with products or even talking to the desiners/manufacturers about parts being made or will be made.

You have to get realistic about where paintball is and how AGD can effect it. I would love to see a new xvalve that is even lighter but made in tadem with a new generation of bodies that could be more sexxxy. So that valve would need a new rail, which needs a new frame and it is basically a new gun. So where is time better spent, trying to find every nickle in order to get some new parts out, so you could go to an event and sell dir3ct to the masses or rubbing elbows with people who might buy a product that you are talking about?

[Nobody]

Please remember, this is not jumping on a bad idea, just more of correctly a line of thinking to the realities of paintball and the costs on a global scale.

So just for gits and shiggles. Let us design a new trigger for the Iframe. We are lucky enough to have the old designs for the dimensions which is a huge help. Mapping out the telemetry is a very time consuming process. You need a designer. Designer #1 says, 1 month, $500. Ok, you pay him, you spend days trading info on wants and likes till you iron out what you want.now, you need to prototype this. You do meed to check the design against the product. So you turn to the machinist. He says, 1 month, $1500. He gives you viable prototypes. You take those prototypes to the designer with you likes and wants. This takes thay month of hammering and tweaking the design, but you have your trigger.

Now, with design in hand and the prototypes, you turn to your machine shop. You have 3 quotes: 100 units at $100 per, 1000 at $50 per and 10,000 at $1. How many do you want? You then have to get them finished, polished and ready for anno. 1000 units to the polisher is saying 2 months & $5000. Anno guy is cheap at $500 for the whole bunch but is backlogged and will take 6 months for basick black.

So at this point, you are out $12k and almost a year just for a trigger. Some of this figures are inflated but some might be on the money. That is just a trigger. A new gun like what was said before, will reafh 6 figures.

We all want this to happen, but unless someone hits the lotto, don't hold your breath. I am happy that some one is still there answering the phone at AGD.

[Ninjeff]

You know what?

I read back through the whole thread and realize my mistake was thinking the topic had turned into talk of future possibilities and "what could AGD do to____"
But, it hadn't.
I suppose that explains the difference in how any one is approaching the subject.
So, never mind. Carry on!

[captian pinky]

Yes. But none of these new innovative designs really took off with the originators. With agd being as small as it already is, a "failure" could spell it's end. I know all about the markers I stated and what they may have turned into. I have never seen a working nova 700 or an ice epic. The two evil omens I saw in person were having issues. All I was saying is that alot of paintball companies went under because of "innovation"....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nJ2GkfvV2I

only one i had on youtube.

[Evil1]

All I was saying is that a company like agd with two guys running it in their spare time is in no position to come up with a totally new design at this point. Agd already has proven themselves.

[Sandman]

Did someone mention triggers?

93201

Again, I appreciate all the passion. I hope no one gets frustrated or put off by the conversation. Doc, Jeff, you guys are bringing up great points.

Keep in mind AGD was a one man operation as of February.

Since March in stepping in to help Dave I have:

Entirely rebuilt the website.
re-aquired the domain airgundesigns.com
Created a new Facebook page which is closing in on 2k likes.
Created 2 small lines of customs guns SandFX and OG.
Had Luke make custom RT style rails.
Added products like Nummech, Inceptions, Empire and Luke's.
Factory serviced, repaired and returned numerous mags.
Fulfilled hundreds of orders domestically.
Supplied many customers overseas.
Supplied some domestic dealers...(this will evolve)
Talked to, assisted and emailed dozens of customers for support.
Created new AGD product (like pictured, only triggers, but still...)
Working on a new Intelliframe.
Many discussions on possible electronics options for the mag.
Working to establish new anodizers for larger affordable color selection once again
(previous anodizers have dropped us because we are too small)
The list goes on........

So in a marketing sense establishing a new website and building a facebook presence are huge moves.
Getting color back into AGD's dust black inventory is huge too, at least IMO.
Establishing relationships with community suppliers.
Maintaining the flow of parts and working to establish some new items.

All in all since March, I think AGD has made great progress.
Two hands one heart, can only do so much.

Just keep shooting mags and we'll do just fine.

[Ninjeff]

That is some mighty progress! Well done! That probably doesn't get said enough.


Speaking of anno, what happened to all the small anno guys that used to do custom anno all the time? I haven't looked in years so i suppose i just naturally assumed there were small batch guys still doing good work in the garages.
Question not related directly to AGD stuff, i'm just curious.

[Sandman]

There are not that many "small" ano guys left anymore. When I got back involved with AGD, It just so happened that Mario Calva from FX anodizing, back in the day, was getting restarted himself. We chatted and he agreed to help me get some guns going like the SandFX and OG series. The issue is, it's really expensive compared to bulk ano work. Mario can't provide me with a "stock" color ano work. He just doesn't work that way. He is an artist working on custom paint jobs charging a decent buck. The work he's already done for us and the ability to keep the cost of a hand polished acid wash color like on Blinky, Scorch and Envy, to a reasonable cost has been awesome.
I really do not know who else is out there doing custom ano work.

Commercial work is difficult. No one wants to run 100 parts or less. At least not in Chicago. That's why I'm reaching outside of Chicago to get some work done.
Hopefully I will be able to get some stock color going again that does not cost us custom ano prices.

That's about all I know on ano.

[Doc Nickel]

All in all since March, I think AGD has made great progress.

-And that's exactly what you need to be doing. :D

Ninjeff seems to think that money, time and ideas can be had for the asking, and anyone saying "we don't have the money for that" or "I don't have the time for that" just isn't trying hard enough or something. But the reality of the situation is that you guys have to make small steps, and do what improvements you can with what limited resources you have.

Small parts and accessories to start with is the best way to get back on your feet.

And I know you guys are AGD, but don't be afraid to offer parts for other markers too. :)

Doc.

[Doc Nickel]

Speaking of anno, what happened to all the small anno guys that used to do custom anno all the time? I haven't looked in years so i suppose i just naturally assumed there were small batch guys still doing good work in the garages.


-There are, but as is the nature of all small-garage businesses, things are constantly changing.

And with anodizing, there the additional hazmat issues to worry about. Anodizing deals with chemical and electrolyte baths, including sulfuric acid and sodium hydroxide, which are toxic and can't always be just poured down the drain. (Well, the sodium hydroxide can- that's drain cleaner. :) But if it's full of aluminum smut, you're not supposed to.)

Depending on where you are in the country, and your local regulations, there's ventilation issues, PPE (personal protective equipment) regulations, and if you have more than a couple employees, there's OSHA regulations on top of all that.

Yes, it's possible to anodize parts in a couple of 5-gallon buckets in your garage. It's also possible to rust every steel item in your garage including your car thanks to the acid fumes. :) But you can't do much volume- and thus, anno cheaply- in 5 gallon buckets, which means bigger tubs, more room, and more chemicals, which often have to be disposed of my shipping a drum full of it to a hazmat center- and paying $300 a drum to have disposed of.

Sands- try Anodizing Inc. out of Oregon. They're a good bulk anodizer that can also do some individual work. (They did the Windex-blue Fastback Sniper on my front page.) You might also contact Mike at CCI and see who does his anodizing. Whoever that is can clearly do both bulk colors and specialty one-off patterns.

Doc.

[Ninjeff]

-And that's exactly what you need to be doing. :D

Ninjeff seems to think that money, time and ideas can be had for the asking, and anyone saying "we don't have the money for that" or "I don't have the time for that" just isn't trying hard enough or something. But the reality of the situation is that you guys have to make small steps, and do what improvements you can with what limited resources you have.

Small parts and accessories to start with is the best way to get back on your feet.

And I know you guys are AGD, but don't be afraid to offer parts for other markers too. :)

Doc.

No i don't man, and I'm trying to be cool but I really feel like you have a hard on for not discussing anything in good faith.

I even stated that my mistake was thinking that the conversation had changed into a conversation of ideas and what to do.
I suppose it hadn't and thats my mistake.

But seriously man, at some point you have to stop sniping everyone that comes a long and offers suggestions.

[Ninjeff]

Getting with Mike from CCI is a good idea as far as anno is concerned. We've had him out to my field a number of times for SPE and he always brings the absolute most BEAUTIFUL guns for a give away. Plus, he is a really great guy in person. Who ever he has doing the anno on those does some spectacular work.

[Doc Nickel]

No i don't man, and I'm trying to be cool but I really feel like you have a hard on for not discussing anything in good faith.

-That's just it. I am discussing this in good faith, I'm just not blowing any smoke up anyones' skirt, and I'm not, as they say, looking at everything through the proverbial rose-colored glasses.

You cannot run a business purely on hopes and good intentions. You have to have a viable business plan- "viable" meaning "it can actually work in real life"- you have to have working capital, and you have to have the time to do the work necessary.

You suggested at least twice that AGD simply had to design, build and market an all-new paintball gun in order to get back on their feet. That is, actually, entirely true, and I never denied that.

What I've kept trying to point out, is that is a HUGELY expensive proposition, both in raw cash and time and labor. It CAN be done, but at the moment, AGD has none of that. They have little working funds, barely any manpower, and between the two of them, not a great deal of spare time.

It may be a bit of Devil's Advocanism to point that out, but that is, in fact, said in good faith. It is exactly the wrong time, both for AGD themselves and the overall market in general, to invest huge sums in an all-new gun. Done exactly right and with good people, sure, it could succeed, but it's far more likely to push AGD from a small, but ongoing two-man business, over into a failed-and-closed business.

I don't want to see that happen, and so I have described some of the hurdles involved.

AGD, as noted above, is on pretty much the prefect course for a company of their limited size and funding. Start small on limited lines of parts and accessories that are inexpensive to make and buy, expand that line as time, ideas and funds allow- kind of like Inception is doing today, and quite successfully- and as funds and market share hopefully increase, perhaps eventually consider relaunching some of the classic designs, or some fresh design.

Doc.

[Spider-TW]

And with anodizing, there the additional hazmat issues to worry about. Anodizing deals with chemical and electrolyte baths, including sulfuric acid and sodium hydroxide, which are toxic and can't always be just poured down the drain. (Well, the sodium hydroxide can- that's drain cleaner. :) But if it's full of aluminum smut, you're not supposed to.)

Doc.

Actually, 90% sulfuric is sold around the city as drain cleaner also, which is worse than the 13% you use for ano. You can settle out the smut and pour off the rest; it doesn't make good drain cleaner by then either. What gets nasty is when you are working on a repeatable commercial level (for resale) and you need better pre and post stripper washes, post ano/ pre dye washes, and sealer baths, usually nitric or oxalic acids and nickel acetate. You can get away without all of the extra baths when tinkering, but you need it for good, fast, repeatable quality finishes.

Commercially, you end up with lots of tanks (space), power supplies, agitators, and temperature controls, which also need to be kept clean. That's in addition to polishing machines. It may not be a big monetary investment, but more in time and space, which is why it is easy to walk away from. For small runs, you need a small and good shop, with some very specific funding agreements.

Also, if you keep a cover on the ano bath, it doesn't corrode much at all (I was surprised). The worst thing in my garage has been muratic acid (HCL) left by the previous owners from their tile projects. That vapor creeps up the wall and eats dry-wall, wood, and steel.

[vintage]

hey Tim, any luck with Elastomer on the fore grip replacement?

[Ninjeff]

Ok, so lets talk small. I'm down for that.
What was the last paintball gizmo that made you sit up and go "holy crap why didnt any one think of that sooner?"
For me it was the DP lever on/off. Still the easiest to use out of everyone's design (personal opinion) and if i could I'd put them on all my markers.

[Sandman]

hey Tim, any luck with Elastomer on the fore grip replacement?

I have not had a chance to reach out to them and see if they are interested. My concern is on a minimal run basis the cost will be too high per part.
I will find out for sure, but I'm not very confident. Buying ready made grips is already too expensive, much less having someone make one.
I'm really considering a new style foregrip altogether using grips already made within the industry. I have to run out current supply of foregrips for that.
At this point it's more feasible to do that than to have a grip made. Crazy as that may sound.

[Nobody]

Ok, so lets talk small. I'm down for that.
What was the last paintball gizmo that made you sit up and go "holy crap why didnt any one think of that sooner?"
For me it was the DP lever on/off. Still the easiest to use out of everyone's design (personal opinion) and if i could I'd put them on all my markers.

Actually, an easier way to bring people to a new gun is an electro frame that does away with the board and battery pack of the Emag. Put it in a gun with a L10 and Xvalve and you have a small package that can keep up with an Axe. Its just getting the frame designed, sourcing the boards and parts, putting it together and testing it for sale. Its those small steps that you need to make.

Though the OG and SandFX didn't sell out in a week, it is proving that AGD is making inroads to showing to the people out there that AGD is still kicking. The real trick is that we, the mag users need to do is take our guns and put them in the hands of new people. And most importantly, having a place to get a new gun for themselves. So pick some kid or new player that is talking about getting a new or better gun than they have and put your mag in their hands and convert them.

[Sandman]

To reiterate on electronics....those idea's are being discussed.
Luke is already doing it. Not sure when he will be ready.
It's already been done before. I like the VER frame myself. It appears that was well made, but expensive.
The key is sorting through the good and bad of what was done and making something people can afford.
My though process is that $500 is too much. But that's where the price is at right now.
If I can get it to $350...We'd kill it I think. Just don't know if it's possible at our volumes.

We'll keep looking for a solution.

[Ninjeff]

To reiterate on electronics....those idea's are being discussed.
Luke is already doing it. Not sure when he will be ready.
It's already been done before. I like the VER frame myself. It appears that was well made, but expensive.
The key is sorting through the good and bad of what was done and making something people can afford.
My though process is that $500 is too much. But that's where the price is at right now.
If I can get it to $350...We'd kill it I think. Just don't know if it's possible at our volumes.

We'll keep looking for a solution.

$350 for the frame/electronics?

[JKR]

Sandman...just want to commend you for all of the hard work you have been doing. Keep up the great work in revitalizing AGD and growing the business.

I also want to encourage everyone reading this to save up and do your best to buy a new AGD product in 2017. We can help keep AGD growing stronger with our support. So, forego that urge to go buy another used Automag from your online sources and pick up a shiny new Mag this year!

[Nobody]

$350 for the frame/electronics?

Yes and that is the key.

Anytime you do small orders, which can be little as 100 units of whatever, the price is greatly different when doing 1000s. It can then jump down to easier prices for all at those levels. Electronics are a tricky part of the equation, as you need someone to write the code and put it on the chips/boards, someone to physically make the boards, and someone to test the boards (at least on your end). Writing code could be superseeded if you are using a pre-existing code that is compatible with the board and chipset.

The sad part is, you can then run into dead electronic parts (just a fact of life), and even having spares. Then consider that sourcing the parts, you might run into numbers. You can get either 100 or 1000 units, but you need 300. It is far cheaper to get the 1k units but then stuck with stock. So you need that money and then space to house that.

Basically, the numbers on pricing just grows and grows. Hell, think about this. In order to have a viable product that is cost effective at $350. You need to add in all the screws, all the parts to have it as, i do believe, a drop in frame. That frame needs to be cost effective as it is paying for everyone (except volunteer testers) and every piece of material to make 2 of them (its the magic number in sales) & gives the seller profit for more frames or funding future projects. It is extremely hard to do but not impossible.

These are the concerns on any new endeavor, especially if you wish to say in business. I like the small calculated steps that Sandman & Zupe have done so far. While not ground breaking or extravagant, they are always going forward. That is the most important part.

[Ninjeff]

I was just trying to steer conversation away from arguing with Doc.
I think $350 is a totally fine price for it. If that's what is on the horizon, i'll totally wait to build another mag. At $350 a frame it sounds like we should be able to get an all new Mag together for...what...$650?

[maniacmechanic]

Was there a problem/failure with the Hyper frame ?? would rights to produce that frame be a problem ?

[blackdeath1k]

How have sales been on the resurrection autocockers? That is a good tentative judging point. Because these 2 markers always went neck and neck. Really the quality and longevity of the mag is a pro and con from a company standpoint. Cockers had vast improvements over the years. Mags on the other had had small refinements. But really they have been almost bulletproof since the mid 90s. Really looks, ult non ult, are about it for change. That's not counting the aftermarket of electro and pneumatics. But basically a mag built in the 90s is as good as a mag built today. Whereas a cocker built in 95 is nowhere near a more current cocker.

[going_home]

Was there a problem/failure with the Hyper frame ?? would rights to produce that frame be a problem ?

That was Centerflag.

Not sure if there are any lingering patents out there on that.

Personally I was never terribly impressed with them though.


http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/etriggers/cflagmag/

[bowcycle]

Actually, an easier way to bring people to a new gun is an electro frame that does away with the board and battery pack of the Emag. Put it in a gun with a L10 and Xvalve and you have a small package that can keep up with an Axe. Its just getting the frame designed, sourcing the boards and parts, putting it together and testing it for sale. Its those small steps that you need to make.

Though the OG and SandFX didn't sell out in a week, it is proving that AGD is making inroads to showing to the people out there that AGD is still kicking. The real trick is that we, the mag users need to do is take our guns and put them in the hands of new people. And most importantly, having a place to get a new gun for themselves. So pick some kid or new player that is talking about getting a new or better gun than they have and put your mag in their hands and convert them.

This is exactly it.
We have the new website up. We have the facebook page up. So now, when someone is interested, we don't have to have lots of product on hand, they can go shopping online and you can potentially upsale them.
When we have a competitive electro frame, every necessary piece will be in place on the supply end for AGD to grow.

What's missing is all of us getting out there and loaning our mags to those who might get into the market.
Everytime I've handed someone one of my mags, they've been impressed. Even the ones that aren't flashy are still impressive for their durability and simplicity.
So get out there and always keep a good loaner on hand. Lend it out freely. Let lots of people get hands on mags.

And, let's do a recreation of the tongue-in-breech video. I guarantee that has potential to go viral. Do it with the covers off the frame so everyone can see that there are no electronics, no eyes, no gimmicks; just great designing.

[Doc Nickel]

You don't have to do the tongue, which actually is dangerous- and requires a removable X-Mag breech. I was actually more impressed with a rolled dollar-bill one. :)

Doc.

[skipdogg]

That was Centerflag.

Not sure if there are any lingering patents out there on that.

Personally I was never terribly impressed with them though.


http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/etriggers/cflagmag/

The irony is that centerflag only made the hyperframes because Tom refused to. I'm sure Dennis would let AGD have the hyperframe. He and Tim would have a good laugh about it I would suspect...

[Nobody]

How have sales been on the resurrection autocockers? That is a good tentative judging point. Because these 2 markers always went neck and neck. Really the quality and longevity of the mag is a pro and con from a company standpoint. Cockers had vast improvements over the years. Mags on the other had had small refinements. But really they have been almost bulletproof since the mid 90s. Really looks, ult non ult, are about it for change. That's not counting the aftermarket of electro and pneumatics. But basically a mag built in the 90s is as good as a mag built today. Whereas a cocker built in 95 is nowhere near a more current cocker.

Cockers had the look, the built in improvability and preceived notion of being the best. They were also a proshop's dream. The stock parts were just, meh. To improve it, get a new ram, LPR, 4way, frame, valve, bolt, back block. All those parts grew to be able to literally able to build a cocker from those parts without even touching a WGP part. With those parts, you built a fan base and built up a lot of the older players love of the guns. Mags, being so refined that most aftermarket parts did little to the performance of the gun and only gave a new look. Because the lack of either creativity or costs, there was never really any parts that really changed the appearance to put that mag in a new light with players. Old preceived notions of being a blender, even after the L10 came out neger brought back the players to the fold.

The true key is showing that new players that mags are as viable in any other type of gun. Whether it is as mechs or EPs or pneumags. Now, you have to almost target those players in providing a package of that. You need to strip away the old ignorance of being a blender, of being heavy, of being anything that is or was detrimental of the mag to new players. Hell, even playing in the rain with a mech, is something that a lot of guns just can not do.

[Nobody]

The irony is that centerflag only made the hyperframes because Tom refused to. I'm sure Dennis would let AGD have the hyperframe. He and Tim would have a good laugh about it I would suspect...

Do we need to have a 20 year old design or can we do something to improve it?

[blackdeath1k]

Cockers had the look, the built in improvability and preceived notion of being the best. They were also a proshop's dream. The stock parts were just, meh. To improve it, get a new ram, LPR, 4way, frame, valve, bolt, back block. All those parts grew to be able to literally able to build a cocker from those parts without even touching a WGP part. With those parts, you built a fan base and built up a lot of the older players love of the guns. Mags, being so refined that most aftermarket parts did little to the performance of the gun and only gave a new look. Because the lack of either creativity or costs, there was never really any parts that really changed the appearance to put that mag in a new light with players. Old preceived notions of being a blender, even after the L10 came out neger brought back the players to the fold.

The true key is showing that new players that mags are as viable in any other type of gun. Whether it is as mechs or EPs or pneumags. Now, you have to almost target those players in providing a package of that. You need to strip away the old ignorance of being a blender, of being heavy, of being anything that is or was detrimental of the mag to new players. Hell, even playing in the rain with a mech, is something that a lot of guns just can not do.

To me any gun that was a blender in the 90s due to speed had that issue erased with FF hoppers. Warp feed never had a real chance to take off when FF came our just a year or so later. Angels and mags alike were blenders because people out shot there hoppers. That was user error but caused a stigma.

I think a lot has been done in the last year to reserect AGD. All subtle. But it all adds up and the co owners get mad props for all the baby steps.

I'd love to see xmt bodies and Luke's bodies and parts as a link on AGD site or for sale by agd. Honestly the amount of people that know about the aftermarket is just a small percent of the ones that even know AGD is still around.

[BigEvil]

Do we need to have a 20 year old design or can we do something to improve it?


Huh? What?


http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s338/BigEvilOnline/FB_IMG_1462722846465_zpscnvup6id.jpg (http://s509.photobucket.com/user/BigEvilOnline/media/FB_IMG_1462722846465_zpscnvup6id.jpg.html)

[Nobody]

To me any gun that was a blender in the 90s due to speed had that issue erased with FF hoppers. Warp feed never had a real chance to take off when FF came our just a year or so later. Angels and mags alike were blenders because people out shot there hoppers. That was user error but caused a stigma.

I think a lot has been done in the last year to reserect AGD. All subtle. But it all adds up and the co owners get mad props for all the baby steps.

I'd love to see xmt bodies and Luke's bodies and parts as a link on AGD site or for sale by agd. Honestly the amount of people that know about the aftermarket is just a small percent of the ones that even know AGD is still around.

There is a story that TK had forone year that a prize of $10,000 would be given to the "best" player for the year or the best placing of that pro using a warpfeed. From what i was told, only 1 person used it. That was Bob Long. He used a warp for 1 year then took it off after winning the prize.

It wasn't the fact that warps had a short shelf life before the proliferation of the Halo and subsequent forcefeed loaders but the simple fact that those loaders are easier to use. No special brackets, so loader feeding a loader, nothing else. If you have a break in the loader, swap it out for a clean one. Warps are the missing link between gravity loaders and our loaders of today. This will get me hate but they are antiquated, outdated and huge. Even the warpless loaders that some use are better than the TK designed warps.

[going_home]

Huh? What?


http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s338/BigEvilOnline/FB_IMG_1462722846465_zpscnvup6id.jpg (http://s509.photobucket.com/user/BigEvilOnline/media/FB_IMG_1462722846465_zpscnvup6id.jpg.html)

Wait......


Scott didn't really just post an RPG frame did he ?


Maybe I'm seeing things.....



:confused:

[blackdeath1k]

There is a story that TK had forone year that a prize of $10,000 would be given to the "best" player for the year or the best placing of that pro using a warpfeed. From what i was told, only 1 person used it. That was Bob Long. He used a warp for 1 year then took it off after winning the prize.

It wasn't the fact that warps had a short shelf life before the proliferation of the Halo and subsequent forcefeed loaders but the simple fact that those loaders are easier to use. No special brackets, so loader feeding a loader, nothing else. If you have a break in the loader, swap it out for a clean one. Warps are the missing link between gravity loaders and our loaders of today. This will get me hate but they are antiquated, outdated and huge. Even the warpless loaders that some use are better than the TK designed warps.

A warp to me was always an over thought process. And yes big and clunky.

[Sandman]

So...the hyperframe is the frame that has already been done several times over....
the VER frame, the RPG and others...Those us the "clacker" noid and some basic electronics to hammer away.

There are some other frames that utilize a lower pressure reg and board kind of a pnuemag and electronic mix.

What would be nice is if someone that knows all the version of frame could post them up and their basic design.


My idea would be to get away from the "clacker". The clacker makes for a really wide frame with the grips.
Or we need to source a clacker that is small yet can do the same job.... cost is probably the issue.


I would like to do the hybrid of pneumatics and electronics to make it run at low pressure and power.
I can build the reg right into the frame just like Mac Dev does. I love that design. Then a small valve and electronic board
and it's all done! Easy! LOL! Well that's one direction to look at anyway...

Anyone with a list of frames and designs?

And yeah, I never like warps....never used one...my personal opinion...nice concept, just didn't work for me. It's great if you only ever shoot out of one side of the bunker.

[Dirge]

Wait......


Scott didn't really just post an RPG frame did he ?


Maybe I'm seeing things.....



:confused:

That is an E-90.

[BigEvil]

Tim,

There are pros and cons to every method of making a mag electro. The Magnus e90 incorporated everything we have learned from servicing hyper frames. It is more reliable than some of my emags.


As time allows over the next few days i can give you a pretty good synopsis of the different types and their pros and cons.

[BigEvil]

Wait......


Scott didn't really just post an RPG frame did he ?


Maybe I'm seeing things.....



:confused:

You need new glasses.

[going_home]

You need new glasses.

I was looking at this from my phone.

But the other thing is making these to sell at a profit for 350 ?

[Dayspring]

And yeah, I never like warps....never used one...my personal opinion...nice concept, just didn't work for me. It's great if you only ever shoot out of one side of the bunker.

You turn the marker 90 degrees to shoot out of the side of the bunker with the Warp on it.

[going_home]

You turn the marker 90 degrees to shoot out of the side of the bunker with the Warp on it.

Oh I get it.

https://dixonverse.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/gun7.jpg

[Spider-TW]

As time allows over the next few days i can give you a pretty good synopsis of the different types and their pros and cons.

When you do that, got any info on max rof? Would that even matter in the present market, as long as you're over 11?

My EP mag is semi only with a fixed debounce and no buffering, so it only goes as fast as I can hit it perfectly. Theoretically it is 20 bps, timing-wise, but 14 or 16 has been the real limit at the trigger.

I'm expecting an EM mag to be a hair faster to fire than an EP/Ego-mag due to the simpler actuation. At 20 bps you're getting into valve/reg cycle times, so I don't know that it matters from one shot to the next.

Plain solenoid setups (Electro-Mechanical) don't have an LPR with o-rings and seals to take care of, which has been my main interest in them. On the other hand, I haven't had to mess with my micro-rock or that little SMC solenoid valve I bought from Luke years ago. I still have a new spare SMC. As far as embedding an LPR, it is common practice, but it does step up the maintenance and trouble shooting.

I argue this with myself often. :)

[duffman]

need to get more people informed about airgun designs.grass roots marketing, more social media, then need some brand ambassadors getting out to all the different fields and event promoting AGD.
I still love the platform. one of the best

this is just my opinion from an old school player

[BigEvil]

When you do that, got any info on max rof? Would that even matter in the present market, as long as you're over 11?

My EP mag is semi only with a fixed debounce and no buffering, so it only goes as fast as I can hit it perfectly. Theoretically it is 20 bps, timing-wise, but 14 or 16 has been the real limit at the trigger.

I'm expecting an EM mag to be a hair faster to fire than an EP/Ego-mag due to the simpler actuation. At 20 bps you're getting into valve/reg cycle times, so I don't know that it matters from one shot to the next.

Plain solenoid setups (Electro-Mechanical) don't have an LPR with o-rings and seals to take care of, which has been my main interest in them. On the other hand, I haven't had to mess with my micro-rock or that little SMC solenoid valve I bought from Luke years ago. I still have a new spare SMC. As far as embedding an LPR, it is common practice, but it does step up the maintenance and trouble shooting.

I argue this with myself often. :)


Every single marker has it's own unique personality. I can get 20 bps on all of my electros with Xvalve variants, and 16 on my Hyperframed classic. Some emags I can push to 23 bps. With stock set up, most struggle to do 17.

[Ninjeff]

Is ROF a big issue now-a-days anyway? All major tournaments are capped below 13 now, and NXL is at 10.5 i believe. I cant think of the last time i went to a field and they allowed firing modes (although most people sneak by with ramping).

[cockerpunk]

Keep in mind AGD was a one man operation as of February.

lets all just keep in mind i got **** on for days, by nearly everyone on this forum with a "name" including several admins, because i dared say something like this.

as i stated in that thread too ... i thought this was common knowledge in the mag community. and it certainly should have been with the very folks ****ting on me.

stay classy AO.

EDIT: again, this is not a rip on AGD. i wish more of the old guard would have done the same thing (WGP eh hem). i think its fantastic that AGD is still around, and the way to do that is keep overhead low.

[Spider-TW]

Is ROF a big issue now-a-days anyway? All major tournaments are capped below 13 now, and NXL is at 10.5 i believe. I cant think of the last time i went to a field and they allowed firing modes (although most people sneak by with ramping).

That's where I started on my ramble. The lower acceptable rof lately is part of what makes the Rize, enmy, and vibe workable. The low pressure / low force bolt is slow and it gets counted as a "feature". I've been backing off on the rof on my mags since 2006. That is a nice thing about electronic control; you can set it for the particular game.

While a new electronic frame would be more widely applicable, my daydream designs usually end up rail-less or integrated rail-frame layouts. It would cut out unibodies, but it opens up other possiblities.

[Sandman]

lets all just keep in mind i got **** on for days, by nearly everyone on this forum with a "name" including several admins, because i dared say something like this.

as i stated in that thread too ... i thought this was common knowledge in the mag community. and it certainly should have been with the very folks ****ting on me.

stay classy AO.

EDIT: again, this is not a rip on AGD. i wish more of the old guard would have done the same thing (WGP eh hem). i think its fantastic that AGD is still around, and the way to do that is keep overhead low.

Hey cockerpunk, not sure what you were ripped on about. Saying that AGD was a one man operation? That's interesting. Not sure why anyone would rip on you for that statement.
Anyway, hopefully whatever reason there was is done and over with.

Back to electronics.

I agree NinJeff. ROF should not be big issue. 15 BPS should be max ROF. Tournaments don't allow that high and fields should never allow higher. So ROF should never be an issue.
15 BPS max is easily attainable.

Size of the frame is my issue. The hyperframe style remakes all use the same huge clacker. I would never agree to invest in a project to rebuild something that big. It has to be a smaller set-up or I just would not make it. So finding a smaller noid or using an LPR with a smaller valve and board are the options I know of. Not sure if they are possible. Everything has to fit in the frame too. No external LPR hanging off the gun somewhere.

Cost. $350. Is just my idea of the sweet spot. Maybe it's not possible. At $500, we'll sell 25 like everything else that's near that price point for aftermarket parts.
At $350 it can be built into a full gun and stay in the $1000 price range.

Scott, I just need to come visit you. See all of these incarnations in person.
Road Trip!

[luke]

That little 1" noid is not the problem with the overly large Eframe's, but its the design of the frame itself. Have you seen one of my Minivert frames in person? What if I said the geometry of a Eframe and grips didn't need to be any bigger than that? But in fact it's exactly the same with more finger room and without enlarging the trigger guard. Not to mention that it does not need to be as tall as an Angel frame. ;)

[knownothingmags]

I say put the board in the rear of the rail. and have battery space in the frame :-)

[luke]

I say put the board in the rear of the rail. and have battery space in the frame :-)

Not necessary and not all mags have rails. ;)

[renie]

I'm working on an emag style design at the moment..was keeping this quiet until I got some testing done, but sod it! someone will only copy it lol...
basically utilising a push/pull solenoid, ive found a real tiny one with decent force (would need a ult or similar) and a new custom trigger rod,
it sits inline where the standard trigger rod would go, the trigger hits a micro switch before the front of the trigger rod which if the board is on your electro or keep it turned off for mech mode.

hope that makes sense lol I can draw it up if that's easier to explain, happy to give Sandman any of my ideas

Like I said its untested but happy to share my ideas :)

[captian pinky]

I say put the board in the rear of the rail. and have battery space in the frame :-)

tried this awhile back and the rail isnt deep enough. If i remember correctly.:confused:

[luke]

I'm working on an emag style design at the moment..

Mine is done. ;)

[renie]

Mine is done. ;)

look forward to seeing it :) mines been on the back burner for ages, I'e had no time what's so ever for personal projects :(

[Sandman]

Mine is done. ;)

Can't Wait!

[Nobody]

Hey cockerpunk, not sure what you were ripped on about. Saying that AGD was a one man operation? That's interesting. Not sure why anyone would rip on you for that statement.
Anyway, hopefully whatever reason there was is done and over with.

Back to electronics.

I agree NinJeff. ROF should not be big issue. 15 BPS should be max ROF. Tournaments don't allow that high and fields should never allow higher. So ROF should never be an issue.
15 BPS max is easily attainable.

Size of the frame is my issue. The hyperframe style remakes all use the same huge clacker. I would never agree to invest in a project to rebuild something that big. It has to be a smaller set-up or I just would not make it. So finding a smaller noid or using an LPR with a smaller valve and board are the options I know of. Not sure if they are possible. Everything has to fit in the frame too. No external LPR hanging off the gun somewhere.

Cost. $350. Is just my idea of the sweet spot. Maybe it's not possible. At $500, we'll sell 25 like everything else that's near that price point for aftermarket parts.
At $350 it can be built into a full gun and stay in the $1000 price range.

Scott, I just need to come visit you. See all of these incarnations in person.
Road Trip!

Gordo has a way of saying something that is just a detriment. The way he writes, he comes off very obnoxious, arrogant and condescending, no matter if its the truth or not.

While i won't try to spend your money, but if you do make sure its a weekend. We, the BEO will put you up, feed you and take you to our field were you can not only shoot these, but put them in real world applications. I am sure we can even drag Tuna out for the day ;)

[BigEvil]

WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


That's because no one likes you Mimsy

http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s338/BigEvilOnline/Sig%20stuff/Separated_zpsz9bjo6kg.jpg (http://s509.photobucket.com/user/BigEvilOnline/media/Sig%20stuff/Separated_zpsz9bjo6kg.jpg.html)

[BigEvil]

Scott, I just need to come visit you. See all of these incarnations in person.
Road Trip!

I will order the cigars now. :D

We can get Keith down here too and make it a 3some LOL

[cougar20th]

I will order the cigars now. :D

We can get Keith down here too and make it a 3some LOL

Say what?

[Nobody]

Say what?

You are volunteered to a weekend stay at Che Fertitta when Sandman comes.

[going_home]

Pre Tunaball ?

[Dayspring]

Let's keep it on topic here - no fighting.

[Spiritchaser]

Mine is done. ;)

Hmmm... I guess my tax return next year is now spoken for...

[Spider-TW]

Hmmm... I guess my tax return next year is now spoken for...

Hypothetically, if there was such a thing (as a tax return or e-frame), I happen to have a bone stock classic mag that would really be fun with a single trigger e-frame, even if I could only get 8 bps out of it. :rolleyes:

[cockerpunk]

Gordo has a way of saying something that is just a detriment. The way he writes, he comes off very obnoxious, arrogant and condescending, no matter if its the truth or not.

While i won't try to spend your money, but if you do make sure its a weekend. We, the BEO will put you up, feed you and take you to our field were you can not only shoot these, but put them in real world applications. I am sure we can even drag Tuna out for the day ;)


That's because no one likes you Mimsy

http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s338/BigEvilOnline/Sig%20stuff/Separated_zpsz9bjo6kg.jpg (http://s509.photobucket.com/user/BigEvilOnline/media/Sig%20stuff/Separated_zpsz9bjo6kg.jpg.html)


Hey cockerpunk, not sure what you were ripped on about. Saying that AGD was a one man operation? That's interesting. Not sure why anyone would rip on you for that statement.
Anyway, hopefully whatever reason there was is done and over with.


i was as shocked as you were.

automags: love the guns, love AGD ... some of the people who have taken over "the community?" not so much.

i don't know what there deal is, but it seems no matter how obvious the statement i make is, they want to attack me for it. including the 3 page meltdown they had when i said that AGD was a small operation these days. i think they thought i was ripping on AGD. i don't know why because as i also stated in both threads, i wish more companies in the old guard did what AGD did, in order to keep the doors open and the guns supported. most of the old guard went out with a bang, and the biggest loss when that happens is to the guys who own and love the guns. AGD is still here for us, and thats great.

thanks for what you do sandman, keep the doors open at AGD and we'll keep shooting the guns:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/gerglmuff/Paintball/960181_471174962963348_1312787484_n_zpscf39766d.jp g (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/gerglmuff/media/Paintball/960181_471174962963348_1312787484_n_zpscf39766d.jp g.html)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/gerglmuff/Paintball/10372768_10202270477585885_7229990908837128230_n_z psb210eeb3.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/gerglmuff/media/Paintball/10372768_10202270477585885_7229990908837128230_n_z psb210eeb3.jpg.html)

[BigEvil]

OK I'm lying.. I love you Gordo.

[luke]

Back to electronics.

Size of the frame is my issue. The hyperframe style remakes all use the same huge clacker. I would never agree to invest in a project to rebuild something that big. It has to be a smaller set-up or I just would not make it. So finding a smaller noid or using an LPR with a smaller valve and board are the options I know of. Not sure if they are possible. Everything has to fit in the frame too. No external LPR hanging off the gun somewhere.

These two frames are both narrower than a stock Intelli frame with DYE wrap arounds.
The Mini Vert and LcE90 are identical in width (frame and grips). The LcE90 shown is fully engineered so this is the final design.

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/MV%20vs%20LcE90_zps9ok8drhp.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/MV%20vs%20LcE90_zps9ok8drhp.jpg.html)

The real factor in how a grip frame feels is indicated in the following pictures. Measurements are taken with with the triggers pulled (bottomed out) so "how far forward" the trigger sits when the marker is aired up is not figured, however it does factor in.

This same measurement on the LcE90 is only 1.90" ;)

The trigger below is the Ultra Blade (Pneumag ONLY) which has a different geometry than a standard Intelli trigger. It incorporates new geometry that has considerably less travel than a standard intelli style trigger. This equates to more room inside the trigger guard than the standard configuration.
http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/MV%20vs%20LcE90%20005_zpsxjw81lfu.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/MV%20vs%20LcE90%20005_zpsxjw81lfu.jpg.html)

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/MV%20vs%20LcE90%20004_zpsphkrigwt.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/MV%20vs%20LcE90%20004_zpsphkrigwt.jpg.html)

The LcE90 will give you an additional 0.35" more space inside the trigger guard than the Deflator grip frame, that is without moving the guard forward. (Still fits an 8" Automag rail.)

:)

[Spiritchaser]

This looks super promising for me. My mole-hands are great for rock climbing, but not so good for fitting in cramped trigger guards. I'm looking forward to this!

[bowcycle]

Mine is done. ;)

Salivating...

[vintage]

what about those of us who don't like 90 degree frames?

[going_home]

what about those of us who don't like 90 degree frames?

Keith has that covered (soon I hope).


http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj576/robertlane5/Snapbucket/EA63A87E_zps0e664cb2.jpg (http://s1268.photobucket.com/user/robertlane5/media/Snapbucket/EA63A87E_zps0e664cb2.jpg.html)




;)

[dstud2000]

Glad to see AGD alive and kicking, even if its only in baby steps for the time being, atleast they are here for us and I appreciate that. Been out of paintball for some years due to life, but finally getting some time to put into paintball again and the prospects of AGD being their for tech, service and possibly some new goodies is very exciting. Keep it up, you have my gratitude Sandman and anyone else helping him out.

[p8ntbal4me]

I want to touch on this subject in only one part: The spacing of a trigger in relation to the back of the frame....

Its all relative, and when you start plugging electronics inside,... you need to have that space.

With the VER frames,.. you have so little material between the back of the trigger to the back of the solenoid,... then cram a trigger switch inside,...

The materials and the width is minimal.

Sear geometry needs to be almost PERFECT or the high rates of fire will not occur,.....

When people talk about cutting material here and there,.. use caution,... because I can almost guaranty you will need it back for other parts later on.


In a purely mechanical point,..... I don't believe cutting some materials out will do much harm.

[luke]

I want to touch on this subject in only one part: The spacing of a trigger in relation to the back of the frame....

Its all relative, and when you start plugging electronics inside,... you need to have that space.

With the VER frames,.. you have so little material between the back of the trigger to the back of the solenoid,... then cram a trigger switch inside,...

The materials and the width is minimal.

Sear geometry needs to be almost PERFECT or the high rates of fire will not occur,.....

When people talk about cutting material here and there,.. use caution,... because I can almost guaranty you will need it back for other parts later on.


In a purely mechanical point,..... I don't believe cutting some materials out will do much harm.

I agree 100%

The micro switch was by FAR the biggest problem developing the LcE90. Using an AGD Intelli style trigger poses many design and potential performance problems. I spent 2 weeks and exhausted fistfuls of ideas to maintain AGD's trigger platform so everyone could use their favorite trigger. In the end the trade-offs of using an Intelli trigger wasn't worth sacrificing improvements by simply re-engineering how it's done.

[Sandman]

Will there be a 45 style in the long run? I don't think this was ever answered...or was it?

[luke]

Will there be a 45 style in the long run? I don't think this was ever answered...or was it?

Anything is possible, are you buying? :)

[Sandman]

I certainly would be!

[going_home]

I certainly would be!

We were at the Dye booth talking to Billy Wing at cup and my buddy mentioned to him they should seriously think about making black Dye stickies again.

He didnt say they would but he didnt flat out shoot it down either.

It'd be a great fit to go with a new 45 frame.

Just saying....

;)

[luke]

It's unfortunate that both DYE and AGD got the 45 grip screw spacing wrong, both are wider than spec (but different). You have to force the DYE grips just enough that they get tweaked and don't fit properly.

[going_home]

Compared to a 1911 ?

[captian pinky]

It's unfortunate that both DYE and AGD got the 45 grip screw spacing wrong, both are wider than spec (but different). You have to force the DYE grips just enough that they get tweaked and don't fit properly.

funny you mention that because dye had issues with the grips for the ul frames too.

[luke]

Compared to a 1911 ?

Yes.

[vintage]

the thing I noticed is 1911 grip panel fit my intelliframe just fine but wrap around grips wont because their is no relief behind/below the trigger guard.

[going_home]

Dye Stickies fit the Intelliframe perfectly.


;)

[cfos00]

Super late to the party and not here too much, but Sandman have you tried talking to Arnold's Metal Service for ano? They do BPS and Bob Long markers, and have a few things going for them. They're extremely fast, have good quality, and are one of the consistently cheapest shops that I've used and seen. We're talking turnaround times of 2 weeks on the three projects I've used them on. They also can do small and large orders and handle both. They're also a professional ano shop---not a gararge shop. They might be a good option for you.

[luke]

Dye Stickies fit the Intelliframe perfectly. ;)

If so, someone has made changes somewhere along the road. I'm referencing the first run Intelliframe, the one without the little jog in the trigger guard to clear the asa and the AGD cad files and the screw spacing does not match 45 grip spec. Of course the screw spacing can be whatever the designer wants but typically when frame and or grips are labeled a "45" it's saying it's made to 1911 specs.

Here is what I have found for screw spacing:
DYE Stickies > 3.125"
AGD Intelli > 3.082"
45 Grip spec > 3.0625
As a side note PTP grips are dead nuts perfect!

My guess is if your DYE Stickies fit "perfect" either DYE or AGD changed the spacing (Which I find extremely doubtful on either account) or more likely someone has filed the holes in the Stickies so they fit. From a machinist perspective both DYE and AGD are off by a mile. LOL. ;)

[going_home]

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b195/going_home/IMG_20161224_162514.jpg (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/going_home/media/IMG_20161224_162514.jpg.html)

[luke]

A picture might speak to you but mathematics is the ultimate ruler in my universe, math may not make sense to some but it is no lier! (LOL >> :)) I never said they didn't fit, I said the screw spacing is incorrect. Math is math, spec is spec, within tolerance is close enough. From a technical, machining, design and or engineering perspective I would say someone forked up. For many reasons I can't imagine DYE or AGD chose those dimensions on purpose. Chances are it was an oversight on the designers part. Looking at the AGD spacing I would guess the designer added the holes in the drawing as a place holder because he didn't know what spec was, then forgot about it, the measurement is just too odd to think otherwise. I've been designing in two different fields for more than 15 years and stuff like that happens with the 10's of thousands of details a designer has to keep track of. As far as DYE being 1/16" off, I have no clue, perhaps they are not branded as 45 grips(?)

[luke]

Since you dont trust my math :)

Perfect fit right?

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/DYE_zpshr2jskxe.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/DYE_zpshr2jskxe.jpg.html)

Nope. The panels warp when you force them into place.

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/DYE%20Intelli%204_zpsyftqmnvh.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/DYE%20Intelli%204_zpsyftqmnvh.jpg.html)

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/DYE%20Intelli%203_zpshs3whz6h.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/DYE%20Intelli%203_zpshs3whz6h.jpg.html)

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/DYE%20Intelli%202_zpskyzkteev.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/DYE%20Intelli%202_zpskyzkteev.jpg.html)

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/DYE%20Intelli%201_zps6lmwl5um.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/DYE%20Intelli%201_zps6lmwl5um.jpg.html)

[going_home]

Dye Stickies fit the Intelliframe perfectly.


;)


Mine fit fine.

I'll stand by what I said.

That style you have in the pics doesnt fit anyones frame right, and is not a good example.

I'm not going by math, nor am I disputing your math, just saying mine fit fine, and I've never had an issue with them.

Now that we've swerved off subject......


;)

[Nobody]

Ok, so you are trusting a (presumed) hot molded product that shrinks when it is cooled to stay within exacting specs? Get over it. I am sure that if you take 10 different dye sticky grips, that the spacing on them will vary from grip to grip.

This would be different in a machine aluminium grip but its pointless to talk about specs on a maliable, changing soft products as grips. Maybe i don't know rubber or the injection molded products...

[luke]

I've made MANY different molds in aluminum and rubber and done castings in rubber and plastic. I've done open pours and injection molding in my garage. As a matter of FACT, I've made 45 and Emag panels that fit perfect. There is ZERO reason or excuses why a big time manufacturer can't hit within the proper tolerances if they start with the correct drawings. The casting process is the same in all industries whether your making soles for shoes, engine blocks in steel or aluminum or gun grips in plastic and rubber. Anyone making molds professionally will know the shrink rate for the medium they're working in and will make the molds accordingly. Like it or not it all boils down to mathematics. If it's impossible to do why are the PTP grips dead nuts?

[going_home]

If it's impossible to do why are the PTP grips dead nuts?

They screwed up and did something right ?

[Nobody]

I've made MANY different molds in aluminum and rubber and done castings in rubber and plastic. I've done open pours and injection molding in my garage. As a matter of FACT, I've made 45 and Emag panels that fit perfect. There is ZERO reason or excuses why a big time manufacturer can't hit within the proper tolerances if they start with the correct drawings. The casting process is the same in all industries whether your making soles for shoes, engine blocks in steel or aluminum or gun grips in plastic and rubber. Anyone making molds professionally will know the shrink rate for the medium they're working in and will make the molds accordingly. Like it or not it all boils down to mathematics. If it's impossible to do why are the PTP grips dead nuts?

From what i have gotten from people who have done production runs, not just 10 parts, but 100, 1000, 100,000s of parts; you are dealing with people who don't understand what its for, if a few thousandths here or there matter, or the simple fact that cutters or molds get gunked up, or medium runs out mid pour and the production QC just lets something that is not up to spec. Even if you have a company that is great at meeting prospective specs, a broken tool, an off center hole, even a dull cutter; you can not have the kind of attention that single pieces get.

So yes, from you perspective, its easy to see 1 out of 10 items not be to spec. When you are talking about the shear number of dye stickies out there(which i am sure where manufactured overseas, which is a whole different matter entirely), i would venture is in the hundreds of thousands of grips; your small sample size can not be the end all, nor the spec for the entire line. That is a fact.


They screwed up and did something right ?

This :D

[luke]

Machined molds will repeat 1x or 10Kx or even 100Kx times without deviation. Silicon molds do wear out but you will notice it immediately on the first few bad parts, in that case you stop and make another mold. You can normally see them degrading, it doesn't sneak up on you. Large manufactures would have shrinkage dialed in based on materials used, that said, if the parts you had made don't fit properly chances are it's your fault. I won't pretend to know why DYE chose 3.125" for center-line on their grip screws but I would wager it was an oversight for AGD. Like I said, I can see that happening pretty easily based on my own experience in the design industry. My only argument is the dimensions of the so called 45 grips, I don't presume to know or understand the intent of other manufacturers but it sure looks like a screw up to me. I will argue that if you are calling your paintball grip frame a 45 I damn sure better be able to go to Pachmayr (http://www.pachmayr.com/home/alslaminategrips.php) and buy a set of standard panels or wrap-arounds that fit. That's the entire reason for using the 45 platform, it's ridicules to argue otherwise.

[luke]

So yes, from you perspective, its easy to see 1 out of 10 items not be to spec.



When you are talking about the shear number of dye stickies out there(which i am sure where manufactured overseas, which is a whole different matter entirely), i would venture is in the hundreds of thousands of grips; your small sample size can not be the end all, nor the spec for the entire line. That is a fact.


Once the molds are made nothing changes, they will repeat over and over again down to the finest detail.

[luke]

you are dealing with people who don't understand what its for, if a few thousandths here or there matter,

If you do the math you will see AGD is off by 100ths not 1000's (big difference in the machining industry).

[Spiritchaser]

I can't speak to the specific materials used in these grips, but certainly with polyurethane, there can be modest dimensional changes after fabrication. We had multiple instances across multiple batches where parts we stored for a while grew enough for it to be a headache. At first We thought it was a fabrication error because the growth was actually somewhat consistant. We know temperature was a factor, and suspect that time at humidity level was too. Now: parts stored in a restrained state didn't have the problem.

Again: not sure that this is actually the right polymer, or that it is in any way related...

For the record we established that those parts were not to be stocked, and that they needed to be installed (and thus restrained) very soon after manufacturing. We toyed with the idea of fabricating undersize, but decided a science project to figure out by how much couldn't be justified for that part.

[Sandman]

I'm not sure who made the intelliframe original drawings for AGD. I"m not even sure who ran the machining back then.
Hopefully, newer ones are made with better specs.

Hey luke when's that frame of yours available?

[luke]

Hopefully, newer ones are made with better specs.

I hope not, I make my Intelli grip panels to AGD spec not the 1911. ;)



Hey luke when's that frame of yours available?

I want to change a few things up so it's taking a little longer than expected, but we're almost there. I hope to have a working prototype in January.

[RogueFactor]

They screwed up and did something right ?

Thats funny right there^...and true! Well done, GH. Well done.

[AGD]

This thread is an interesting read. I have often pondered on how to make a low volume but still profitable marker. Something like a 'signature series' with only a restricted amount sold. Still that type of product would be at the very top price range of the market and that alone would bring on the complaints.

The market is SO small now it just shuts off most of the options. Maybe when the last of the gun manufacturers go out of business there will be enough demand. :) Very disappointing to see that the lawsuits have started up again. If you have the same people you get the same results.

AGD

[going_home]

Yes sir, the lawsuits.

Even though I've bought most of my stuff used, I've started the process of ridding myself of anything GI, Empire, or Kee.

[luke]

Yes sir, the lawsuits.

Even though I've bought most of my stuff used, I've started the process of ridding myself of anything GI, Empire, or Kee.

What are they going after this time?

[Kartan]

paint... colours
thats why i decided to hold off on an emire sniper and rather go for redundant mag parts.

[going_home]

What are they going after this time?

GI is suing Valken and APX saying the companies are violating their (originally PMI) patent on Marballizer.

http://i.imgur.com/Ec9FTOO.png


GI was awarded an injunction stopping Valken from selling the said paint till the case is ended, Valken has settled in a former case which is not a good thing for them.

GI was denied an injunction for the same against APX, which has the best chance as they've never been sued or settled with GI.

Like Tom said, same people acting the same.

Such a vague patent should not have been granted.

Next thing you know there'll be a one color ball and a two color ball patent and everyone will be paying alimony to the 800 lb gorilla in the corner.



Gino Postorivo
December 21, 2016 at 1:41pm · Camden, NJ ·
Lost today's Emergency hearing.
Valken can't sell 2 colors in Redemption that the judge said looks like marbles.
Support Valken's other 58 paintballs.
105 Likes107 Comments3 Shares

https://www.facebook.com/gino.postorivo/posts/1311530265534804


This will give you an idea why the suit was filed in Texas:


https://youtu.be/sG9UMMq2dz4




Originally Posted by GI Sportz Press Release

Marballizer Injunction Granted Against Valken. Injunction covers all paintballs distributed by Valken that are similar in appearance to the GI Sportz Marballizer® paintball.

-- December 22, 2016 --

Camden, NJ - G.I. Sportz, Inc. announced today that on December 21, 2016 the United States District Court, for the District of New Jersey, granted GI Sportz’s request for a preliminary injunction against Valken Inc. to prohibit the sale or offer for sale of paintballs of similar appearance to GI Sportz’s Marballizer® paintballs in the United States until a full trial on the matter is concluded.

This injunction was issued based on claims that Valken infringes GI Sportz’s incontestable U.S. trade dress for its Marballizer® paintballs and that Valken breached a previous agreement with GI Sportz not to offer paintballs that look like GI Sportz’s Marballizer® paintballs. The Court specifically stated that:

“[GI Sportz] negotiated away pursuing the litigation (…) in exchange for a bargained-for clear, definable lane of permissible conduct, articulated by the parties in the contract in clear language and specific exemplars. [Valken’s] attempt now to rip that agreement up, go right back into the same market with an identical product suggests to me that they entered into this contract and received those concessions perhaps intending all along to not abide by the terms of that agreement. (…) [Valken] also entered into a contract not to sell the competing product and bound themselves to that, and [by] their conduct here now, (…) they have simply disregarded -- taken the benefit of a contract, assumed the benefits from it, and appear unwilling to honor (…) the benefit that they conferred on the plaintiff in this matter.”

The Court further went on to state that:
“As a matter of trademark law, one thing that's unique and special about these United States is that we have always, indeed the founders, founding fathers recognized the importance of intellectual property rights. It makes our system a model for others around the world for many years. [Marballizer®] is a valid mark. It has been deemed by the law under a regime established by Congress to be incontestable. It is entitled to deference and respect.”

"We are gratified by the Court's decision to grant a preliminary injunction against Valken and the recognition by the Court of our Trade Dress," said Richmond Italia, GI Sportz’s CEO. "From the beginning, our decision to seek an injunction against Valken was to protect our sport and the hard working employees of the GI Sportz family. This latest ruling by the Court further confirms that the U.S. judicial system respects innovation and intellectual property, and will intervene to prevent the proliferation of knockoffs when necessary. The Marballizer® Trade Dress was invented by GI’s predecessors, and has been associated with high quality paintballs for decades. Instead of cultivating its own design, Valken has repeatedly sought to short-cut this effort and expense by simply copying what GI and its predecessors have worked so hard to develop.”

A full trial on GI Sportz’s claims of trade dress infringement and breach of contract against Valken Inc. is scheduled to be held in the U.S. District Court for the District of New Jersey at a later date.

G.I. SPORTZ (GI) is the leading global manufacturer of paintballs and paintball related equipment, operating across six continents with distribution in over 100 countries. Founded in 2010 by a group of professional paintball players and business owners, GI’s mission is to consistently deliver innovative, high quality and performance improving products to the Player, Dealer and Field Owner. GI strives to ensure that its current and new product lines deliver game-changing experiences to its customers.

[Loguzzzzzz]

This thread is an interesting read. I have often pondered on how to make a low volume but still profitable marker. Something like a 'signature series' with only a restricted amount sold. Still that type of product would be at the very top price range of the market and that alone would bring on the complaints.

The market is SO small now it just shuts off most of the options. Maybe when the last of the gun manufacturers go out of business there will be enough demand. :) Very disappointing to see that the lawsuits have started up again. If you have the same people you get the same results.

AGDThere have been some private label AutoCockers selling in the $1,200 - $1,500 range depending on the anodizing and finishes. Based on this there may be a market for some New AGD limited run specialty markers.

I'm referring to the Niche AutoCockers.

[maniacmechanic]

There have been some private label AutoCockers selling in the $1,200 - $1,500 range depending on the anodizing and finishes. Based on this there may be a market for some New AGD limited run specialty markers.

I'm referring to the Niche AutoCockers.

I've noticed A LOT of high end / limited Cockers selling in a much different fashion than I've seen before

[BLachance75]

Those guns also have nice milling. To me it is a combination the milling and anodizing that helps those markers command that kind of money. I can totally see why AGD is having a hard time selling the custom anodized guns, they aren't different other than the color, which is a highly personal thing.

I may be wrong but doesn't Niche offer you an option to pick the color you want for the anodizing. I know that BPS did when they did the Twisters.

[going_home]

Thats funny right there^...and true! Well done, GH. Well done.



Sometimes dry southern humor gets lost in here.....


;)