Aluminum Classic Valve

[Carnage reigns]

With the NXL starting a mechanical division, can you see AGD making an aluminum, non reactive, classic valve to satisfy their rules?

[blackdeath1k]

Nope. But stranger things have happened.

[vintage]

it would be nice but I figure Tim will try to lobby them to allow X valves.

[rawbutter]

Can you put a classic on/off inside an x-valve to eliminate reactivity?

[Carnage reigns]

I think UWL rules disallows 'Mags as a whole. People seem to believe that will be the template. A non reactive valve seems to be the answer and a lighter one may bring some customers.

[nak81783]

Define reactivity. A classic valve still uses air to reset the trigger. It's just regulated air, instead of unregulated air like an RT/X-Valve. Changing a classic valve to aluminum wouldn't change this. I would think with lower input pressures and tuning the on/off pin length, on/off o-rings, and trigger rod on an RT/X-Valve setup, all the bounce could be taken out of any of them. I cannot get my mechanical Automag with stock X-Valve to bounce with 800psi input. Change to a quad o-ring and up the input pressure, and that's a different story.

Unfortunately, I think it would be easy for some to skirt the rules (admittedly, I haven't seen the rules) and get an Automag to bounce after it's been checked. I think a traditional mechanical disconnect is required (blowback) or an Autococker or other mechanical pneumatic where the pneumatics simply don't allow the marker to fire without a complete trigger pull and reset (that I'm aware of anyway).

[Spider-TW]

Sounds like they need a "Blowback Division".

[nak81783]

With what I think they're trying to accomplish, I still say "gravity hoppers only" is the easiest way to go.

[going_home]

With the NXL starting a mechanical division, can you see AGD making an aluminum, non reactive, classic valve to satisfy their rules?



It will probably not be a blip on the radar, the large majority of mech players play woodsball not speedball.



So yeah, no one cares.



;)

[ghost flanker]

Define reactivity.
Reactivity is any force that resets the trigger which is greater than the minimum force required to pull said trigger. It shouldn't matter how the trigger is reset. Whether it's done with a spring, with air pressure, or with magic pixies is irrelevant as long as the reset force is less than the minimum force required to fire the gun.

[nak81783]

I'll buy that, but putting an RT/X-valve on/off assembly in a Classic Valve would meet that definition, wouldn't it? Sure, it doesn't provide the reset force of an RT/X-valve, just like I can't bounce my X-valve, but it would still violate the definition. A simple way to skirt the rule for a small performance gain, namely a lighter trigger pull. So where is the line drawn? Letter vs intent.

[armymanadam]

I still think someone will need to come up with a way to test for trigger pull and return force--that would be the only way to ensure a given marker doesn't violate the RT rules.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nobody]

I'll buy that, but putting an RT/X-valve on/off assembly in a Classic Valve would meet that definition, wouldn't it? Sure, it doesn't provide the reset force of an RT/X-valve, just like I can't bounce my X-valve, but it would still violate the definition. A simple way to skirt the rule for a small performance gain, namely a lighter trigger pull. So where is the line drawn? Letter vs intent.

The classic valve does not supply any force to resetting the trigger. Using a RT on/off assembly is just changing the way the on/off returns, and not using any air.

Having an Xvalve not bounce is not a bad thing, mind you.

[nak81783]

I disagree. If not air pressure, what does reset a Classic Valve trigger?

Agreed; I don't like bounce. Just stating mine doesn't in stock form and others that do bounce from the factory can be tuned not to.

[Nobody]

I disagree. If not air pressure, what does reset a Classic Valve trigger?

Agreed; I don't like bounce. Just stating mine doesn't in stock form and others that do bounce from the factory can be tuned not to.

I'll ammend that. Air pressure does not push it back like in an Xvalve where that is effect is a feature. The classic is reset by air to the on/off, which pushes against the sear, resetting the trigger. But the force is not anywhere close in a classic valve to that of an Xvalve.

[going_home]

I still think someone will need to come up with a way to test for trigger pull and return force--that would be the only way to ensure a given marker doesn't violate the RT rules.


Rely on 19 year old refs to get it right ?

Not going to happen.

They will either have to allow or ban Automags.

If they ban them it will be all cockers and a few Tippmans.

And will be short lived like the pump games they tried.

[blackdeath1k]

A classic valve and rt valve trigger reset exactly the same way. Air pressure pushes on the top of the on off pin and it resets due to that air force. The difference in the two is simply that regulated air is what pushes on the pin with a classic 100% of the time. But unregulated air pushes on a rt valve on off pin once the dump chamber has been emptied. So the closer you can get the regulated and un regulated (to the valve) air on a rt valve the less reactive the valve will be.

I don't foresee this series lasting all that long. It won't have enough support to stay going. A field up north did a tournament this past summer that would work well and be easy to regulate though. Batteries not included. Basically you could use a electric gun with a NON force fed loader or you could use a mechanical gun with any loader you wanted. It was a pretty good ballance. Only other thing they would need to add is no markers with a tank input pressure above 850 and call it a day. If they started having an issue with rt owners manipulating on off pin length to cheat the system. Then just force the RT users to use a non force fed hopper as well.

[GoatBoy]

I don't know what the official definition of "reactivity" is. But I'm a simple man so I'll just play Captain Obvious...

Per the actual word itself, I would think that the force has to "react" to some event or input.

A typical trigger return spring isn't reacting to anything but you pulling the trigger, and you can pretty much pull on it during any phase of firing. I.e. it ignores inputs or states pretty much.

So... this is where it gets touchy, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Just kind of assume ideal conditions.

In a Classic Mag, the regulator is upstream of the on/off pin and pretty much always tries to provide the same pressure to the on/off, then to the dump chamber. So for all intents and purposes, it's just like a return spring.

Hypothetical: assume you lock the bolt down so it cannot move and wantonly pull on the trigger (on/off). The pressure should always be the same. If you let the bolt go, more or less the pressure should be the same. It ignores the state of the bolt/dump chamber, and hence the gun itself.

In an RT Mag, there is a feedback path from the dump chamber directly to the reg piston, and the on/off sees unregulated pressure when the piston is open.

Hypothetical: assume you lock the bolt down so it cannot move and wantonly pull on the trigger (on/off). That pressure is always the same. However, if you let the bolt go, the feedback path opens up, and the on/off doesn't see regulated pressure anymore -- it sees unregulated pressure.

So the return force on the RT actually reacts to the state of the gun, i.e. the state of the dump chamber.

I think the same categorization would apply to the Tippmann Response Trigger -- again, implicit to the name, it has to respond to something. If you never actually fire the gun, the Tippmann RT does nothing. Only when you fire the gun and produce blowback gas does it do anything.



Having said all that, I think the whole thing is fruity and meaningless anyways. They should just allow it. Mechanical means no batteries and they should leave it at that.

Unfortunately, you will find that behind every sh*tty rule is a sh*tty human being that wants to carve sh*tty distinctions out because he just wants to be sh*tty. This applies to other rule formats as well sometimes. *cough* "magfed".

[nak81783]

A field up north did a tournament this past summer that would work well and be easy to regulate though. Batteries not included. Basically you could use a electric gun with a NON force fed loader or you could use a mechanical gun with any loader you wanted. It was a pretty good ballance. Only other thing they would need to add is no markers with a tank input pressure above 850 and call it a day. If they started having an issue with rt owners manipulating on off pin length to cheat the system. Then just force the RT users to use a non force fed hopper as well.

You edited to add the last bit before I could respond to suggest it. Regardless, I'm curious what most players chose. By "good balance", did you mean 50/50-ish of each in attendance, or it leveled the playing field no matter one's gear? Also, what would most on AO choose? I've ran the X-Mag with a gravity hopper occasionally and the mechanical X-valve Automag with a force-feed hopper frequently. I'd easily choose the latter. The two are essentially equivalent in terms of chop protection; ACE on the X-Mag is redundant, albeit welcome. I can also shoot them about the same bps in short to medium bursts (X-Mag is set at 10bps semi). I would choose the mechanical marker with force-feed hopper simply for the uninterrupted supply of paint to the marker.

[blackdeath1k]

You edited to add the last bit before I could respond to suggest it. Regardless, I'm curious what most players chose. By "good balance", did you mean 50/50-ish of each in attendance, or it leveled the playing field no matter one's gear? Also, what would most on AO choose? I've ran the X-Mag with a gravity hopper occasionally and the mechanical X-valve Automag with a force-feed hopper frequently. I'd easily choose the latter. The two are essentially equivalent in terms of chop protection; ACE on the X-Mag is redundant, albeit welcome. I can also shoot them about the same bps in short to medium bursts (X-Mag is set at 10bps semi). I would choose the mechanical marker with force-feed hopper simply for the uninterrupted supply of paint to the marker.

Ha-ha. Yah. I edited that because I knew someone would point out pin manipulation.

By good ballance I just meant that unless I'm missing something the best mech guns of the late 90s are still the best mech guns. IE mags and cockers. Everything went electro after that. A mag or cocker can be shot in the 10bps realm. An electro marker without FF will be in the 10 bps realm. So short of the RT effect manipulation you have a close ballance with minimum rules to marker.

Personally once electro ramping and all the other stuff became main stream the ban on the AGD RT should have been lifted. WTF is the difference in a full mech marker running wide open without eyes or a electro marker running wide open a couple bps less but with eyes to guarantee no chops or Chuff. It's not like any companies would really invest in more mech markers. An electro marker is so cheap to produce once the development is done.

[GoatBoy]

You edited to add the last bit before I could respond to suggest it. Regardless, I'm curious what most players chose. By "good balance", did you mean 50/50-ish of each in attendance, or it leveled the playing field no matter one's gear? Also, what would most on AO choose? I've ran the X-Mag with a gravity hopper occasionally and the mechanical X-valve Automag with a force-feed hopper frequently. I'd easily choose the latter. The two are essentially equivalent in terms of chop protection; ACE on the X-Mag is redundant, albeit welcome. I can also shoot them about the same bps in short to medium bursts (X-Mag is set at 10bps semi). I would choose the mechanical marker with force-feed hopper simply for the uninterrupted supply of paint to the marker.

I'd choose the mech Mag because both the X-Mag and a full hopper are stupid heavy...

To be clear, I wouldn't particularly mind a modified rule division or whatever where you allow electro hopper or gun or whatever (one or the other) because that's an expansive (or inclusive) modification.

I'm more interested in inclusion and consistency, as opposed to exclusion and inconsistency.

I don't think paintball needs to be exclusive and exclusionary (and inconsistent for that matter). If someone shows up to play with some marker that would otherwise be legal but for some stupid contrived inconsistency in the ruleset carved out by some fickle rulemaker... just let them play.

[nak81783]

I'd choose the mech Mag because both the X-Mag and a full hopper are stupid heavy...

What are the weights of the various stock AGD markers produced over the years? I thought there were numerous pretty thorough threads on this, but searching isn't producing very good results.

[JKR]

I'd be happy with the availability of new Classic valves in stainless.

[going_home]

Problem is in todays economy they'd probably have to sell for half what a new Xvalve costs, and they wouldnt sell.

Especially when there are likely 10's of thousands of used ones around for $35-ish.

[BigEvil]

I would love to see an aluminum classic valve. I have spoken to Tim about it, I don't think it's on the radar. XMT tried to drum up interest a while back but there didn't seem to be much.

Another interesting point that I was reminded of, NOT ONE SINGLE AGD GUN LEAVES THE FACTORY WITH TRIGGER BOUNCE. The NXL problem is two fold;

1- how to adequately make sure that Mag dont get more than one shot per pull
and
2 - (this is my own $.02) AGD does not have money in the league, is not throwing money around, or has any sponsored teams.

Other than a minority of people (you can guess who) that want to see mags in the mech division of the NXL, the rest could care less. I'm also sure that none of them want to come up against them. :)

[going_home]

Simon seems to be attempting to include Automags ?

[Spider-TW]

Another interesting point that I was reminded of, NOT ONE SINGLE AGD GUN LEAVES THE FACTORY WITH TRIGGER BOUNCE.


Could you clarify the difference between RT and trigger bounce? Seems like any trigger that kicks back harder than you had to pull can be held to bounce.

[GoatBoy]

What are the weights of the various stock AGD markers produced over the years? I thought there were numerous pretty thorough threads on this, but searching isn't producing very good results.

I don't have a full list, although component part weights are easier to find.

I think the Classic came in close to 2lbs even.

I believe the X-Mag came in at 2.7lbs. The X-Mag has all kinds of fanciness in it, but it's "Abandon all hope" as soon as you put the aluminum grip frame with the solenoid + the battery on there.

I'm just gonna... leave this here.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3-dIEU6pxfM/UaO3V1mV70I/AAAAAAAAF0w/Kdv5Fn6a-oI/s640/DSCF1497.JPG

I'd like an aluminum Classic as the X-Valve is still lighter than my Vigilante-valve setup by almost an ounce, but let's face it -- it's not happening.

[dboggs79]

Just make ruling on tank output pressure, done.

[athomas]

Reactivity on any gun results when the return force of the trigger is greater than the force required to pull activate the shot. It doesn't matter what gun it is on. If you provide feedback and there is enough force differentical between the pull and reset, you will get trigger bounce.

There should be a standard set such that the return force cannot be more than some percentage above the the trigger activation force. That would fix all arguements and make any mechanical gun legal as long as it meets the standard.

[zondo]

So, does a pneumag get around this issue because there is no feedback on the trigger reset from the on/off to trigger or does it still get disqualified simply because of the way the on/off functions?

In other words the rules only look at how the function of the on/off works and not how the force is felt at the trigger.

[BigEvil]

Can you put a classic on/off inside an x-valve to eliminate reactivity?

Yes, but the trigger pull is really hard. Since you have direct line pressure acting on the pin in an Xvalve, the pull weight is probably 2/3 harder than a classic mag.

[Mondoatx]

So, does a pneumag get around this issue because there is no feedback on the trigger reset from the on/off to trigger or does it still get disqualified simply because of the way the on/off functions?

In other words the rules only look at how the function of the on/off works and not how the force is felt at the trigger.

This is a very interesting thread...

I would think one (and possibly the main) reason for having an all mech league would be to limit ROF... and to me the pneumag would go against this concept the same way reactivity would... you can still rip on those things even though they don't have batteries (from my admittedly limited experience... I have only seen videos of them firing... but one can easily conclude you would have a very high ROF from seeing them)...

[vintage]

easiest fix is limited paint say 500 to 600 rounds per player passed out by officials 5 minutes prior to game start, all unused paint thrown in trash when leaving field under the watchful eye of an official.

i'm sure the league doesn't want to work this hard so they will just ban markers they don't like.

[luke]

I would vote for 1 full hopper, two pods, no sharing paint.

[zondo]

This is a very interesting thread...

I would think one (and possibly the main) reason for having an all mech league would be to limit ROF... and to me the pneumag would go against this concept the same way reactivity would... you can still rip on those things even though they don't have batteries (from my admittedly limited experience... I have only seen videos of them firing... but one can easily conclude you would have a very high ROF from seeing them)...

But it still takes skill to walk a pneumag for anything longer than 3-4 shots... and lots of tuning and practice. It's still pure semi and no guarantee on what the actual rate of fire would be like you would get with an e-gun. You do not have a board to make up for clumsy fingers and short stroking. Again, it is a physical skill.

I say let it fly, if you can do it! Even let warpfeeds or other force fed hoppers in. the pool of people that can pull >13BPS on a pure mech trigger for longer than 4 rounds is not large.

[GoatBoy]

You can have reactivity without "bounce". If that's implied, then they really need to change the name of it. I think half the problem technically is people are just throwing words around without pinning down what they really mean.

And by the way, force alone doesn't produce actual work.

In some cases you can relate force to work ("this return force ratio *might* produce bounce in some guns"), but good luck crafting a rule where it is both effective *and* doesn't unnecessarily rule out certain configurations. Some guns will RT at 850PSI or less, some will never RT at all.


So, does a pneumag get around this issue because there is no feedback on the trigger reset from the on/off to trigger or does it still get disqualified simply because of the way the on/off functions?

In other words the rules only look at how the function of the on/off works and not how the force is felt at the trigger.

I don't see a feedback path so it wouldn't be considered "reactive". It's just "a really light trigger". Whether or not it gets banned is, again, a matter up to the fickle, inconsistent minded rulemakers. It's a good litmus test to see what the spirit of the rulemakers really is.



This is a very interesting thread...

I would think one (and possibly the main) reason for having an all mech league would be to limit ROF... and to me the pneumag would go against this concept the same way reactivity would... you can still rip on those things even though they don't have batteries (from my admittedly limited experience... I have only seen videos of them firing... but one can easily conclude you would have a very high ROF from seeing them)...

OK, so this I think is the unspoken heart of the matter, and where we separate the men from the bearded lady-men.

The mech question isn't about ROF, because you could just limit ROF and call it a day.

It's not about paint limit because you could just limit paint and call it a day.

It's about game design.

You want to design games where choices have meaning.

In current open play, if you want to go hard, it's a pretty easy choice. Pick up an electro gun with an electro hopper, go hose people. The choice is so easy that it's meaningless.

But what if we were go around and kick everybody's crutches out from under them? "No batteries. Now what are you going to do?"

Now people have to start making equipment choices which actually mean something.

It is exactly the same thing as when a video game maker goes in and nerfs a certain aspect of the game when it becomes boringly overpowered. They nerf that, then everyone scrambles to find the next OP thing, and sometimes they wind up finding something that was even more powerful than the original thing that was nerfed.

That's when things get entertaining.

http://i.lvme.me/rovlta9.jpg

[blackdeath1k]

You can have reactivity without "bounce". If that's implied, then they really need to change the name of it. I think half the problem technically is people are just throwing words around without pinning down what they really mean.

And by the way, force alone doesn't produce actual work.

In some cases you can relate force to work ("this return force ratio *might* produce bounce in some guns"), but good luck crafting a rule where it is both effective *and* doesn't unnecessarily rule out certain configurations. Some guns will RT at 850PSI or less, some will never RT at all.



I don't see a feedback path so it wouldn't be considered "reactive". It's just "a really light trigger". Whether or not it gets banned is, again, a matter up to the fickle, inconsistent minded rulemakers. It's a good litmus test to see what the spirit of the rulemakers really is.




OK, so this I think is the unspoken heart of the matter, and where we separate the men from the bearded lady-men.

The mech question isn't about ROF, because you could just limit ROF and call it a day.

It's not about paint limit because you could just limit paint and call it a day.

It's about game design.

You want to design games where choices have meaning.

In current open play, if you want to go hard, it's a pretty easy choice. Pick up an electro gun with an electro hopper, go hose people. The choice is so easy that it's meaningless.

But what if we were go around and kick everybody's crutches out from under them? "No batteries. Now what are you going to do?"

Now people have to start making equipment choices which actually mean something.

It is exactly the same thing as when a video game maker goes in and nerfs a certain aspect of the game when it becomes boringly overpowered. They nerf that, then everyone scrambles to find the next OP thing, and sometimes they wind up finding something that was even more powerful than the original thing that was nerfed.

That's when things get entertaining.

http://i.lvme.me/rovlta9.jpg

I agree 100%. Clash of clans is a perfect example of the game nerfing.

And this is also why I said all they really need to do is say E marker and non force fed hopper or mech marker and force fed hopper allowed.

In the end there are full auto mech guns. Granted today they are really old guns. But they exist. And then there is the mag.

In reality the rt bounce concern went out the window once every 10 year old with a 200 dollar credit from daddy could score them an E marker capable of sub 20bps.

[athomas]

So, does a pneumag get around this issue because there is no feedback on the trigger reset from the on/off to trigger or does it still get disqualified simply because of the way the on/off functions?

In other words the rules only look at how the function of the on/off works and not how the force is felt at the trigger.It shouldn't affect the pneumag or any other pneumatic trigger. If that were the case, then the only guns allowed would be blowback sear trippers. A design shouldn't be banned just because it is good. It should only be banned if it allows a rate of fire above what the user can legitimately do on their own.



Yes, but the trigger pull is really hard. Since you have direct line pressure acting on the pin in an Xvalve, the pull weight is probably 2/3 harder than a classic mag.The trigger pull force would be the same as a classic because the dump chamber requires the same pressure as a classic does to fire a ball, which is about double that of a RT/X valve. The direct line pressure is only on the return force. So the return force for the classic pin in an X-valve would be the same as the return force for the RT pin. The reactivity would be greatly reduced because the differential is about 2 to 1 vs 4 to 1 using a RT pin.

[BigEvil]

Judging from many of the replies that I have seen to a discussion on Mags in the NXL I get the feeling that most want no part of it.

[Spider-TW]

Will they ever get to a NASCAR style competition where the markers are as well defined as race cars? They would all be the same brand and model with strict modification guidelines.

Shirley, the Kee-glomeration could afford that.:rolleyes:

[zondo]

Judging from many of the replies that I have seen to a discussion on Mags in the NXL I get the feeling that most want no part of it.

Most of the mag guys or most of the NXL guys?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GoatBoy]

I'm not really a car guy.

I'm thinking fun/interesting in kind of an America's Cup way.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/5/25/11771276/americas-cup-boat-design-team-oracle

Or if you're into model aircraft... I believe the fastest RC model aircraft is currently... a glider.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_soaring

We'd never reach the level of R&D or interest of either of those though.

Back to the topic, I don't see AGD popping out an aluminum Classic valve. The valve is, after all, just the valve. The entire ecosystem around the valve has languished, and rehashing the valve while still pushing the same warmed-over ecosystem would be a amazing exercise in futility.

[going_home]

Most of the mag guys or most of the NXL guys?


How many mag guys do you know that play in the NXL ?

Mag guys play woods, not balloons in an open field....

[athomas]

Most of that comes from uneducated speculation on how they operate. Its too bad. People often jump to conclusions based on misconceptions, not just in paintball. Any mag can be made to operate without being runaway reactive. Its easily tested. Any mechancial marker can be made to go full auto. That would mean all markers would be banned. Not because they are bad, but because they have the capability to be bad. Rule need to be put in place and any marker that meets those rules should be able to be used.

[JKR]

Back to the topic, I don't see AGD popping out an aluminum Classic valve. The valve is, after all, just the valve. The entire ecosystem around the valve has languished, and rehashing the valve while still pushing the same warmed-over ecosystem would be a amazing exercise in futility.

Lightweight bodies with expanding anno options, new frames and triggers, an array of factory available feednecks...yeah, the ecosystem is languishing alright! smh

So many haters.

If we wanted a company that redefines itself each year by releasing new milling, we wouldn't be fans of AGD!

[Nobody]

Lightweight bodies with expanding anno options, new frames and triggers, an array of factory available feednecks...yeah, the ecosystem is languishing alright! smh

So many haters.

If we wanted a company that redefines itself each year by releasing new milling, we wouldn't be fans of AGD!

Yet, the numbers that the private sector(XMT, Magnus, Tuna, KAM, Luke) are doing (20 bodies here, 50 frames there, 12 forgrips, etc) is NOT thriving. This is life support, not life. If you care to see at a field who is buying new guns, what they are using, that is life. If you look at PE, for example, they are updating, changing, improving their lineup of guns because they are selling, they are getting feedback from the players in what they want, what they need. Regardless of where they are played at, PE is looking at the future, not to the past. AO can't even do half the pre-orders to completion, do 100 parts of ANYTHING, or get someone to actually agree on any 1 part that is actually NEEDED.

I love mags, but if AGD wants to grow and live, it will need 1 person to make decisions on a path, 1 person to fund it, and 1 person to make the parts.

And before any of you even think i don't know what i am talking about, i see what Inception Designs is doing and they are pushing into the market, making a name for themselves and trying to put their mark on the paintball world. AO, can't even agree on what they like for a foregrip...

[BigEvil]

Lightweight bodies with expanding anno options, new frames and triggers, an array of factory available feednecks...yeah, the ecosystem is languishing alright! smh

So many haters.

If we wanted a company that redefines itself each year by releasing new milling, we wouldn't be fans of AGD!

Or we can just shoot cockers. Nothing like that going on with that platform right ? :D

[BigEvil]

And before any of you even think i don't know what i am talking about, i see what Inception Designs is doing and they are pushing into the market, making a name for themselves and trying to put their mark on the paintball world. AO, can't even agree on what they like for a foregrip...

AO is no indication of anything, even in it's heyday was a poor barometer of the retail market.

[JKR]

Yet, the numbers that the private sector(XMT, Magnus, Tuna, KAM, Luke) are doing (20 bodies here, 50 frames there, 12 forgrips, etc) is NOT thriving. This is life support, not life. If you care to see at a field who is buying new guns, what they are using, that is life. If you look at PE, for example, they are updating, changing, improving their lineup of guns because they are selling, they are getting feedback from the players in what they want, what they need. Regardless of where they are played at, PE is looking at the future, not to the past. AO can't even do half the pre-orders to completion, do 100 parts of ANYTHING, or get someone to actually agree on any 1 part that is actually NEEDED.

I love mags, but if AGD wants to grow and live, it will need 1 person to make decisions on a path, 1 person to fund it, and 1 person to make the parts.

And before any of you even think i don't know what i am talking about, i see what Inception Designs is doing and they are pushing into the market, making a name for themselves and trying to put their mark on the paintball world. AO, can't even agree on what they like for a foregrip...

PE isn't allowing the aftermarket to dictate their business plans. That is one important difference in your analysis. Everyone loves to see the cool stuff from Luke, XMT, and the rest but the end result is a built 'Mag over a grand. Life sustaining, volume sales are not going to come from a 'Mag with a price tag of over $1000...not in today's economy. AGD needs to focus on 'Mags in the $500-$600 range to keep the lights on and throw in some high end stuff along the way to generate interest. I don't have a sales analysis of the PE company but I'll bet their bread and butter is the market in the $500-$750 (and under) range.

[GoatBoy]

Lightweight bodies with expanding anno options, new frames and triggers, an array of factory available feednecks...yeah, the ecosystem is languishing alright! smh

So many haters.

If we wanted a company that redefines itself each year by releasing new milling, we wouldn't be fans of AGD!

That's actually my point. You have managed to somehow in one sentence compile a list entirely composed of useless rehash items.

Do you think I'm talking about "new milling"? Is that what you took from my statement?



PE isn't allowing the aftermarket to dictate their business plans. That is one important difference in your analysis. Everyone loves to see the cool stuff from Luke, XMT, and the rest but the end result is a built 'Mag over a grand. Life sustaining, volume sales are not going to come from a 'Mag with a price tag of over $1000...not in today's economy. AGD needs to focus on 'Mags in the $500-$600 range to keep the lights on and throw in some high end stuff along the way to generate interest. I don't have a sales analysis of the PE company but I'll bet their bread and butter is the market in the $500-$750 (and under) range.

It's a good bet that anything that AGD produces now, in 2017, will be priced at late-80s level prices. Except they will adjust upward for inflation. They will price themselves out of the market, then complain that there's no market.

Why?

Because history repeats itself.

[going_home]

Have you seen the prices of the new stuff Tim has been working on ?

Its not low end pricing by any means, but it seems competitive at least.

http://www.airgundesigns.com/category-s/107.htm


;)

[1985phenom]

My .02 (never played in a tournament, but started playing in late 90s)

I believe the Genesis of this rule/school of thought starts back when electros started becoming mainstays in tournaments. ROF caps and the like are obviously able to be regulated. AGD cornered the market on performance (high) mechs that could achieve uncappable ROF. Everyone can remember playing with/against guys who had a cheater or workaround on their marker to achieve a higher rate of fire in those days.

^this speaks to the letter of the law, no matter how misinformed it is and all the talk about force returning the trigger, and one pull one shot, etc

Now to the spirit of the law. I would imagine the rules committee wants non-RT/runaway mechs. This is easily achievable. And should be an easy clarification. Talk about reviving a segment of the market and some old rivalries.

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[Sandman]

It's simple,

I build mags all the time that DO NOT BOUNCE. You can try as hard as you want to short pull, slight pull, tease pull....however you want and the gun will not bounce.

Bounce is created by setting the firing point as close as possible to the ready to fire point. Most guns can be set-up to do it. I can make a cocker bounce fire too. It just doesn't work as well because the gun is not capable of returning to the ready to fire state as fast as a mag.

The bottom line is there is no reason to ban mags other than "they"(those making the rules and running the league) are most likely Cocker fans and don't want to compete against a superior mechanical gun.

I've tried contacting the NXL to discuss this. No one bothers to respond. No ones even contacted AGD at all about the league. The Automag is only the most iconic gun besides the Autococker that started the whole competitive sport side of paintball. And these jokers ban them for no reason at all, other than they have no understanding of the tech and don't want to get beat by them.

I guess we'll have to start a competing league.

[JKR]

That's actually my point. You have managed to somehow in one sentence compile a list entirely composed of useless rehash items.

Do you think I'm talking about "new milling"? Is that what you took from my statement?




It's a good bet that anything that AGD produces now, in 2017, will be priced at late-80s level prices. Except they will adjust upward for inflation. They will price themselves out of the market, then complain that there's no market.

Why?

Because history repeats itself.


If not new milling, then what? AGD has the best performing mechanical semi around...very little room for improvement - maybe some efficiency improvements. It is extremely durable and robust and performs better than any other mechanical semi.

Lighter weight? That is subjective as there are many that prefer mechanical 'guns and a bit of nicely balanced weight to said 'guns.

So, the guts are solid...that leaves trigger frames, triggers, lightened bodies, and better feednecks. Improvements or options that customers want in these items are hardly "useless".

Honestly, other than aesthetics, what are you talking about?

Pricing? Well, you get what you pay for. If you want to support American industry as opposed to Chinese made battery powered options, that's up to you.

Not sure your particular dislike for AGD but you might want to consider hanging out in a different corner of the electronic world, just in case you missed the familiar name within the web address.

[going_home]

He shoots mags.

Came to Tunaball a few years back too.


;)

[Loguzzzzzz]

Believe it or not this is really not the center of AGD. There a whole other culture of mag users that buy from the AGD store not even knowing this website exist! If you think that Tom, Dave or now Tim were/are only selling to the fine members of AO you are severely under rating this reach of the AutoMag!

[captian pinky]

It's simple,

I build mags all the time that DO NOT BOUNCE. You can try as hard as you want to short pull, slight pull, tease pull....however you want and the gun will not bounce.

Bounce is created by setting the firing point as close as possible to the ready to fire point. Most guns can be set-up to do it. I can make a cocker bounce fire too. It just doesn't work as well because the gun is not capable of returning to the ready to fire state as fast as a mag.

The bottom line is there is no reason to ban mags other than "they"(those making the rules and running the league) are most likely Cocker fans and don't want to compete against a superior mechanical gun.

I've tried contacting the NXL to discuss this. No one bothers to respond. No ones even contacted AGD at all about the league. The Automag is only the most iconic gun besides the Autococker that started the whole competitive sport side of paintball. And these jokers ban them for no reason at all, other than they have no understanding of the tech and don't want to get beat by them.

I guess we'll have to start a competing league.

there were many ways they could have set a bps cap and they didnt even bother.

500 balls per player
gravity feed or no force feed hoppers
rting penalties

but instead they chose to cut off a whole chunk of the people that would have/wanted to enter/travel play and give them money.

While i see a big surge in people wanting to shoot mech's again, i wish the industry wasn't so one sided.

[going_home]

Did they exclude Automags ?

Is it official ?

[blackdeath1k]

there were many ways they could have set a bps cap and they didnt even bother.

500 balls per player
gravity feed or no force feed hoppers
rting penalties

but instead they chose to cut off a whole chunk of the people that would have/wanted to enter/travel play and give them money.

While i see a big surge in people wanting to shoot mech's again, i wish the industry wasn't so one sided.

It's almost like the tournament side of the industry blacklisted AGD after the original RT was released and they have never allowed the thought of reconsidering there stance on the subject.

[BigEvil]

It's simple,

I build mags all the time that DO NOT BOUNCE. You can try as hard as you want to short pull, slight pull, tease pull....however you want and the gun will not bounce.

Bounce is created by setting the firing point as close as possible to the ready to fire point. Most guns can be set-up to do it. I can make a cocker bounce fire too. It just doesn't work as well because the gun is not capable of returning to the ready to fire state as fast as a mag.

The bottom line is there is no reason to ban mags other than "they"(those making the rules and running the league) are most likely Cocker fans and don't want to compete against a superior mechanical gun.

I've tried contacting the NXL to discuss this. No one bothers to respond. No ones even contacted AGD at all about the league. The Automag is only the most iconic gun besides the Autococker that started the whole competitive sport side of paintball. And these jokers ban them for no reason at all, other than they have no understanding of the tech and don't want to get beat by them.

I guess we'll have to start a competing league.

I will try to see that the fact no one has responded through to the appropriate channels. No promises though... :/

[1985phenom]

Once again, I am not the target audience of tournament paintball, but...
AGD and her allies need to actively lobby the organization to clarify and grant an audience. This could be a huge revival in semi play. I am sure this is being done.

On the flip side, the organization should have reached out to effected parties for standards/rules input. This was an utter fail on their part.

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[Patron God of Pirates]

I don't see anything on the Facebook post or on their website about banning Mags. I did see this:
"Series Champs Will Win New Mechanical Markers!"

If AGD wants Mags in the tourney, offering some up as prizes is probably the best way to grease the skids.

[going_home]

Donating a marker as a prize should help make sure mags are included.

I'm willing to Paypal a little $ to help the cause if Tim wants to go that route.

Anyone else care ?


;)

[Sandman]

Sent out another email to NXL...We'll see if they respond.

I guess I'll address the thread topic.....aluminum automag valves.....We already make one. It's called the X-valve.
Making a classic valve would cost the same to make. A few parts are cheaper, like the reg pin. but for the most part it's the same cost.

If we can't make a classic valve for significantly cheaper, then there really is no point in making it.

[going_home]

Simon seems to be spearheading this for the NFL.

Maybe talk to him.

I'm sure Scott has his number, call him.

[BigEvil]

Simon seems to be spearheading this for the NFL.

Maybe talk to him.

I'm sure Scott has his number, call him.

He needs to talk to Tom Cole. I already asked about it.

[zondo]

How many mag guys do you know that play in the NXL ?

Mag guys play woods, not balloons in an open field....

I think you missed the point of my question... I was asking which audience was discussing this.


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[going_home]

RT ULE mags with an X-valve, when built to spec and ran at normal pressures do not bounce fire. They fire one shot per pull. They do not "run away".

I have said this many times before. X-valves set up to do that are "modified valves/guns". It's like turning up the BPS on an electro. Any electro is capable of high rates of fire, but it's on the player to follow the rules and set the gun up with the proper settings. We don't ban the gun because of its capability to shoot faster than the rules allow.

There is no assist in the pull to an X-valve. None. Zero. There is no force besides your finger that pulls the trigger. The force required to pull the trigger can be changed. This is done with the on/off assembly. The Ultra Light Trigger Kit is an example of that. The stock assembly is replaced with a much thinner pin assembly that requires even less energy to pull. A classic valve can actually be modified the same way. You can use an RT on/off assembly to lessen the trigger pull.

The X-valve guns modified to run away have activation points set so close, that basically any pressure can activate the trigger, and because the gun can return to the "ready to fire" state very fast is can be made to "bounce" with little effort. This activation point can be adjusted again through the on/off assembly by changing the length of the pin. You can shut the gun completely down by using too long of a pin and likewise you can make the gun go full auto, by using a very short pin or no pin at all.

Bottom line is, X-valves can be built to be legal for these events. Banning them is just plain ignorant and IMO extremely biased and prejudiced based on the people who are writing the rules. Don't ban the guns, penalize those who break the rules.

In my 27 year history in the paintball business, this is always typical of paintball events. Privately owned leagues with their own agenda that is not necessarily aligned with what's best for paintball. The is a free country and the NXL is a private company. They can do whatever they choose. I can't even tell who owns the NXL, there is no "Company info" on the site. Their agenda obviously is "Cocker" based and competition interferes with their goals.

If the NXL won't allow the most iconic mechanical gun in paintball history then we will just look for/start/promote alternative events that do. All the money and players who would have supported their events, will have to go elsewhere.

From the NXL mech thread on PBN.

;)

[blackdeath1k]

I agree with almost all of the above. The mag and cocker are the most iconic. Don't think either is more so than the other. Also. My classic rt 100% stock other than Iframe with a normal 800-850psi tank still has bounce due to the 0.744 pin that originated in it. Very controllable and would only fire 10-12 bps at best. But it's still bounce.

[BigEvil]

I agree with almost all of the above. The mag and cocker are the most iconic. Don't think either is more so than the other. Also. My classic rt 100% stock other than Iframe with a normal 800-850psi tank still has bounce due to the 0.744 pin that originated in it. Very controllable and would only fire 10-12 bps at best. But it's still bounce.


A couple of new orings, or possible a .750 pin would probably fix it right up.

[blackdeath1k]

A couple of new orings, or possible a .750 pin would probably fix it right up.

Oh I know there are ways to change it. Longer pin mainly. I was just stating that in original from it has bounce. On the flip side didn't they change the pin length not to long after the RT came out to slow the bounce down?

[BigEvil]

Oh I know there are ways to change it. Longer pin mainly. I was just stating that in original from it has bounce. On the flip side didn't they change the pin length not to long after the RT came out to slow the bounce down?

IM pretty sure that a .744 pin is not a stock size. My new ones NEVER bounced.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?67604-Tolerance-Specifications-E-Mag-RT-Pro-Minimag-Automag-Level-10

[blackdeath1k]

IM pretty sure that a .744 pin is not a stock size. My new ones NEVER bounced.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?67604-Tolerance-Specifications-E-Mag-RT-Pro-Minimag-Automag-Level-10

This is a classic automagRT that I've had since 97. The pin in it is stock. Why it is .744 I do not know. I was on the understanding that the early automagRTs had a shorter pin in them than the latter ones did.

[Menace_AO]

Mag guys play woods, not balloons in an open field....

I know a mag guy who always hated playing in the woods, and always preferred balloons (or whatever) in an open field.

[Nobody]

Woods, there is too much walking. Give me short and sweet, no branches deflecting my shots.

[blackdeath1k]

Woods??? Only when forced. Back in the day when airball first started I lived in it. Now a few decades later all I play is scenario. But now I live in the villages or other tight quarter areas with bunkers and minimal sticks and brush. I like the aspect of speedball vs the aspect of sniper. Guess I just get bored way to easy.

[Menace_AO]

Woods, there is too much walking. Give me short and sweet, no branches deflecting my shots.

You got it, brother!


Woods??? Only when forced. Back in the day when airball first started I lived in it. Now a few decades later all I play is scenario. But now I live in the villages or other tight quarter areas with bunkers and minimal sticks and brush. I like the aspect of speedball vs the aspect of sniper. Guess I just get bored way to easy.

Scenario isn't my favorite, but I definitely concur that structures and small spaces with minimal shrubberies is the way to go.

Nothing is worse than having an otherwise clean shot with that one branch vacuuming up all your paint.:)

[zondo]

You got it, brother!



Scenario isn't my favorite, but I definitely concur that structures and small spaces with minimal shrubberies is the way to go.

Nothing is worse than having an otherwise clean shot with that one branch vacuuming up all your paint.:)

That's the only time I'd lay a stream of paint down... beat the branches into submission.


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[Laku]

Mag guys play woods, not balloons in an open field....

I like both.

[punkncat]

How many mag guys do you know that play in the NXL ?

Mag guys play woods, not balloons in an open field....

Not the NXL, but I know myself and several other guys that DID play in the CFOA (since Larry Motes was a Mag fan) and WANTED to play in other series with variable results. It never was about desire, it was about what they let you do. Most of the issue that I ran into at that time was actually shooting over the allowed 15BPS.....of course it was an RT with about 1200PSI input pressure....

[Sandman]

Most of that comes from uneducated speculation on how they operate. Its too bad. People often jump to conclusions based on misconceptions, not just in paintball. Any mag can be made to operate without being runaway reactive. Its easily tested. Any mechancial marker can be made to go full auto. That would mean all markers would be banned. Not because they are bad, but because they have the capability to be bad. Rule need to be put in place and any marker that meets those rules should be able to be used.

Amen Brother!

[Sandman]

IM pretty sure that a .744 pin is not a stock size. My new ones NEVER bounced.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?67604-Tolerance-Specifications-E-Mag-RT-Pro-Minimag-Automag-Level-10

Classic RT's did come with shorter on/off's .745 or even .740's were used to shorten the activation point. At that time that was cool stuff. .750 are now the stock pin again on RT ULE's.

[BigEvil]

Classic RT's did come with shorter on/off's .745 or even .740's were used to shorten the activation point. At that time that was cool stuff. .750 are now the stock pin again on RT ULE's.

My original one was .750+. I was very underwhelmed at the performance.