Twist lock , freak boring

[maniacmechanic]

I've got a couple crown point twist locks I'd like to freak IF possible
Can it be done ?
Who can do it ??

[tucson.az.jbreen]

Doc has told me he can bore cocker threaded barrels for freak inserts. Perhaps he has the set up to do twist lock barrels?

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?273946-Doc-s-New-Ultrashort-Ultralight-quot-Tanto-quot-Freak-Barrel

Post in that thread or find him in that thread to pm him.

I also am interested in this.

I do not know for certain, but if it's a one piece barrel significantly longer than the inserts, would the barrels original diameter limit the largest size insert you could use?

For example if the barrel is .686, you might have trouble using the .691 or .693 inserts and paint?

Anyone know?

Jim

[captian pinky]

twistlock freak boring is done by cutting the front boring and threading for a tip. It is not done like a standard threaded back.

[Nobody]

Most people won't touch twistlocks to freak bore. The best you could do is, have the crown points cocker threaded then use a that with a twistlock adapter or just as a stand alone barrel. Which could possibly be freak bored (which you would have to see if there is enough meat to handle the insert).

But i just dont know why people continue to use twistlocks anymore. Yes TK made them and while the idea behind them is good, the plethora of cocker bodies, not to mention the weight savings alone.

Come on people, come join the 21st century

[maniacmechanic]

Most people won't touch twistlocks to freak bore. The best you could do is, have the crown points cocker threaded then use a that with a twistlock adapter or just as a stand alone barrel. Which could possibly be freak bored (which you would have to see if there is enough meat to handle the insert).

But i just dont know why people continue to use twistlocks anymore. Yes TK made them and while the idea behind them is good, the plethora of cocker bodies, not to mention the weight savings alone.

Come on people, come join the 21st century


because I was stupid enough to sell my TL adpt , and I want to build a Q loaded Mag again , for Mag Fed games

[JKR]

But i just dont know why people continue to use twistlocks anymore. Yes TK made them and while the idea behind them is good, the plethora of cocker bodies, not to mention the weight savings alone.



I like the Minimag body. The Minimag body uses twist lock barrels and shoots very well with them.

[Nobody]

Not saying that they don't shoot good. I am weighing the difference between the lack of modern barrels made for twistlocks, and the ease of use and availability of cocker barrels in all sizes and flavors. Not to mention the simple fact that to get a regukar cocker barrel freak bored is far easier, cheaper and simpler than to try and find someone willing to take on the job, that won't cost less than a full barrel system and one where you don't turn a 1 piece barrel into a 3 piece monstrosity that may or may not shoot like the original or your memories told you...

[ghost flanker]

I like mag threaded barrels, as well. They can be removed, cleaned, and locked back into place much quicker and easier than autococker barrels, which are rather tedious to unscrew. Of course, if finding a smaller bore size is important to you, then your options will be very limited with mag barrels. They may not be the industry standard, but from a functionality standpoint, I think they are a better design.

[Nobody]

I like mag threaded barrels, as well. They can be removed, cleaned, and locked back into place much quicker and easier than autococker barrels, which are rather tedious to unscrew. Of course, if finding a smaller bore size is important to you, then your options will be very limited with mag barrels. They may not be the industry standard, but from a functionality standpoint, I think they are a better design.

Again, that was because in the early days, the bore consistency to work with the bolt of the mag, dictated the need for the bore to be a specific size. The ULE fixed that, and the new fixed cocker threads fix the 5min to take it off. I do not know about you, but i have used paint that has been around .68 to .69 and everything in between. You might get lucky in a TW freak back or even some fixed barrels, but most are not.

Simply put, carbs still workx but fuel injection is so much better. There are multiple reasons why TW died. No real sense keeping them alive.

[athomas]

A cocker barrel is more stable for accuracy than a twistlock barrel. This is due to the orings around the barrel that keep tension on it. If the barrel were an exact fit to the body, it wouldn't be an issue. But most barrels are not an exact fit, so there is movement during the firing of the gun. This is called barrel wobble. Some barrels are worst than others. A good fitting twistlock barrel won't have that much wobble and it may not even be noticable.

I have a set of different sized twist lock backs for my mag that I used to use before I had my ULE body and I loved them. They were from an Equation barrel system. I even ended up buying a set of insert backs with cocker threads for the Equation set once I had my ULE body. It is my favourite barrel of all my barrels.

[ghost flanker]

Nobody,

Meh. To each his own. You got your reasons for why you prefer autococker threads, but I still like me some twist-lock.


athomas,

That makes sense in theory, but I really do not think that there's any difference in accuracy at all between autococker and automag threaded barrels. Has it ever been demonstrated that barrel wobble actually occurs with automag threaded barrels while firing?

Hmm, I've never heard Equation barrels. What was the smallest bore size in the set you had?

[Nobody]

Nobody,

Meh. To each his own. You got your reasons for why you prefer autococker threads, but I still like me some twist-lock.


athomas,

That makes sense in theory, but I really do not think that there's any difference in accuracy at all between autococker and automag threaded barrels. Has it ever been demonstrated that barrel wobble actually occurs with automag threaded barrels while firing?

Hmm, I've never heard Equation barrels. What was the smallest bore size in the set you had?

If reasons equate to availability, commonality, lighter, better body options, better flexibility in use with both paint and guns. Well yes, it is better. Even going with a ULE body means you remove a weak point, the feedneck, then yes, so much better.

Don't get me wrong, i loved my TW Lapcos. The new detent is a godsend of simplicity and ease, though it came too late to the game. If anything, twistlock barrels are fine, it was always the body that was the sore point. Changing the body opens up a whole world of new and better options for barrels. Want to use a Stella, or a PE or whatever that was never around or made for TWs. A rotary phone works, but isn't a touchtone, cordless, or a cell phone much better than that dinosaur?

[ghost flanker]

The substantially lesser availablity/commonality of twistlock barrels is a nonissue for me. Just because something is not as common doesn't necessarily mean its design and functionality are inferior. In fact, I rather enjoy the fact that twistlocks are unique. Generally, paintball barrels really only affect air efficiency and cosmetics, and I personally think that aftermarket barrel "upgrades" are highly overrated. A large collection of barrels to select from isn't really necessary. One barrel per gun is all I need; anything more is a waste of money. Plus, I often go with the stock barrel to preserve the original look of the gun, anyway. But that's just me. If you're a barrel whore and frequently like to change things up on your gun, then cocker barrels will probably be more appealing. It all comes down to what's important to you.

I'm not saying that I don't like cocker barrels, though. They're totally fine. And the fact that they have a wider variety of body options is a big selling point. As much as I love twistlock barrels, I highly prefer center-feeds over powerfeeds. That's one thing you and I agree on. Fortunately, I'm lucky enough to own a stainless centerfeed twistlock body and it's practically the best of both worlds: low profile and 1-second barrel removal:dance:. That being said, I understand that centerfeed twistlock bodies and barrels are quite rare (though standard twistlock barrels can be modified for centerfeed rather easily) and not everybody can have one, but that's not a fault of the twistlock design. From purely a functionality standpoint, I think the 1-second removal time of both the barrel and the breech for cleaning is a major advantage over cocker barrels that should not be overlooked.

If I could design the perfect mag, it'd have an aluminum centerfeed body and a twistlock barrel.

[maniacmechanic]

My problem with TL's is bore size ,, when ya drop a Pball thru a barrel , and it Falls thru , you lose , air efficiency , consistency and accuracy , find me some TL's in the 680/684 range and then I would be ok , the stock barrels are way big on bore size ( IMO ) , and with freak backs sellin for 100$ ( insanity IMO ) now , at this point this is all a mute point anyway ( for me ) I just went with a warp ULE body

[BigEvil]

Talk to Ty Mcneer. He will do anything for a Klondike Bar...

[OPBN]

Talk to Ty Mcneer. He will do anything for a Klondike Bar...

I was going to mention the same. He agreed to do one for me once, but it wasn't cheap. IIRC, he was looking in the $75 range and he really didn't want to do it.

[ghost flanker]

My problem with TL's is bore size ,, when ya drop a Pball thru a barrel , and it Falls thru , you lose , air efficiency , consistency and accuracy , find me some TL's in the 680/684 range and then I would be ok , the stock barrels are way big on bore size ( IMO ) , and with freak backs sellin for 100$ ( insanity IMO ) now , at this point this is all a mute point anyway ( for me ) I just went with a warp ULE body
I'm not a fan of the big bore sizes of twistlock barrels, either. However, based on research conducted by Punkworks;

Overbore
- Poor efficiency
- High consistency

Bore-matched
- Moderate efficiency
- Poor consistency

Underbore
- High efficiency
- High consistency

Furthermore, no differences in accuracy were found between overboring, underboring, and bore-matching at all. All linear barrels, whether big or small, are essentially equal in accuracy when all else is equal. Though overboring will indeed negatively affect air efficiency up to 20 fps, it performs quite well, otherwise ... better than bore-matching, it would seem. But if efficiency is a serious concern for you, then a mag may not be what you want to be using, anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=q0QxwvYNym4

[Nobody]

I'm not a fan of the big bore sizes of twistlock barrels, either. However, based on research conducted by Punkworks;

Overbore
- Poor efficiency
- High consistency

Bore-matched
- Moderate efficiency
- Poor consistency

Underbore
- High efficiency
- High consistency

Furthermore, no differences in accuracy were found between overboring, underboring, and bore-matching at all. All linear barrels, whether big or small, are essentially equal in accuracy when all else is equal. Though overboring will indeed negatively affect air efficiency up to 20 fps, it performs quite well, otherwise ... better than bore-matching, it would seem. But if efficiency is a serious concern for you, then a mag may not be what you want to be using, anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=q0QxwvYNym4

Oh ghost flanker, if you believe that more than what your own experience is, i just can't help you.

Anyway, a TW is more like 3sec removal, but that is semantics... :)

I have a plethora of barrels and some are gun specific, but most are me seeing what the paint does and which gun with what barrel. Air efficiency is not a huge factor to me. Whether limiting paint to what you can carry/shoot or free air.

But availability of a TW freak back, the cost of it now, & the cost of getting a TW cut is not cost effective. A freak'd Dye Aluminium is about $35 and about the same as to get a barrel freak bored and the cost of a freak barrel(guesstimating the costs, haven't looked at the costs in a bit). The $75+ to get a TW freak'd and the cost of a freak back is $100.

But the biggest deal is the TW body is the weight and the feedneck. It was never over the performance or advantage of the twistlock vs threaded barrels. Though both have their own individual faults, it is the system implemented tbat falls in the long run.

[bowcycle]

I have some color match crown points, but went to ULE bodies and so wanted to get them cocker-threaded.
Cocker threading a crown point is relatively easy, but you loose a few inches of barrel length as the breech area has to be cut off.

If you were willing to cocker-thread the barrel, you could then freak bore it pretty easily. It definitely has plenty of wall thickness.
Then you can use a Doc's adapter for TL bodies and simply screw into ULE bodies.

As others have mentioned, this is a very roundabout way to accomplish something that is of arguable benefit; but it can be done.
To me, the value of a complete color kit with a ULE body was worth the money and time. So maybe the end product is worth it to you.

[maniacmechanic]

I'm not a fan of the big bore sizes of twistlock barrels, either. However, based on research conducted by Punkworks;

Overbore
- Poor efficiency
- High consistency

Bore-matched
- Moderate efficiency
- Poor consistency

Underbore
- High efficiency
- High consistency

Furthermore, no differences in accuracy were found between overboring, underboring, and bore-matching at all. All linear barrels, whether big or small, are essentially equal in accuracy when all else is equal. Though overboring will indeed negatively affect air efficiency up to 20 fps, it performs quite well, otherwise ... better than bore-matching, it would seem. But if efficiency is a serious concern for you, then a mag may not be what you want to be using, anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=q0QxwvYNym4


I'm going to start this with ,, I'm just a stupid mechanic

But if you don't think you lose Accuracy when you over bore ,, well I guess that's the way You think ,,, I KNOW different
If you think Cockerpunk is a Scientist , good for you ,,, BUT he's not
Yes he did all these barrel tests and produced some " Findings " basically his Thoughts on paper ,, and most really don't care about what he thinks or says
It's been MY EXPERIENCE in the field , shootin the same marker for about 13 years now , barrel to paint bore matching improves Accuracy , consistency over the chrono & air efficiency ( which I really don't care about , although I do get 3 pods and a hopper out of a 45/45 ) ALL improve with Paint to Bore matching
The only time you Won't make things better with a paint/bore match is when you are shooting Garbage paint ,
When I have to shoot Garbage paint I overbore ( I only shoot Garbage when nothing else is available , I will spend the extra for Good paint )
Want to know who can tell ya about Accuracy ?? the guys I shoot at ,, I can't tell ya how many times over the years I've been told ; Man that thing ( my AGD ) shoots fn darts , I've had a FSR shooter tell me at 100 feet it shoots just as accurately as their SAR 12
Now of course this is all just my opinion ( and Experience ) ,, I have no Science to back it up
As I said before this thread is a mute point for me , I'm no longer interested in having a TL barrel cut for a freak

[athomas]

I'm not a fan of the big bore sizes of twistlock barrels, either. However, based on research conducted by Punkworks;

Overbore
- Poor efficiency
- High consistency even for inconsistent paint

Bore-matched
- Moderate efficiency
- Poor consistency when paint is inconsistent

Underbore
- High efficiency
- High consistency
- higher chance of barrel breaks

Furthermore, no differences in accuracy were found between overboring, underboring, and bore-matching at all. All linear barrels, whether big or small, are essentially equal in accuracy when all else is equal. If all paint is equal then all barrels will operate very similarly. We can't guarantee absolute equality within the same case in most instances. Consistency does equate to accuracy, since consistency affects the velocity and arc on the ball. That even holds true for paint that flies straight with a natural gravitational arc.

maniacmechanic: You do lose a bit of accuracy when you overbore compared to paint matching, but you gain overall accuracy over a wider range of paint sizes and shapes. If you were to throw a mix of 10 different manufacturers balls in a hopper, you would get better overall performance from an overbore barrel than one that was borematched to one of the paint sizes. That same performance characteristic helps improve overall accuracy for mishaped balls.

ghostflanker: Barrel wobble is a thing. You can actually see the vibrational movement of the barrel in extreme cases. Its not a hugh detriment but it does increase the shot spread a bit. Some barrels are worst than others due to the differences in the outside diameter of the back section. I used to wrap the barrel with tape to take up some of the slack in the body to help prevent it. The twistlock barrel is as accurate as a cocker barrel if tested where accuracy is measured by holding the barrel fixed.

The smallest equation insert in my kit is 0.683". The largest is 0.693". They are stainless, so nice and tough. I love the kit which contains 6 inserts. They are the best barrels I own.

[maniacmechanic]

Never in my paintball career have I put more than 1 type of paint in my hopper ( to play anyway ) , it's been the rare occasion when I found a major size change in paint bag to bag ( again Garbage paint )

[athomas]

No, no one would put more than one paint type into their hopper. It just illustrates a point. But even good paint often has inconsistencies. Overboring evens out those inconsistencies. It isn't even so much about those inconsistencies as it is about protection. If you have even 1 bad ball in your batch and it happens to get shot in a bore matched barrel, the chances of a barrel break increase significantly. Then all paint shot after that are usually inconsistent until you clean everything out. Overboring reduces that chance as well. Most serious tournament players overbore to protect against breakage and don't worry so much about accuracy, because there isn't much difference in accuracy among barrels when using good paint. The All Americans used to run 0.695" barrels on all their guns all the time, even when paint was much smaller than that. Their accuracy was quite good and took them to several world championships.

[ghost flanker]

...if you don't think you lose Accuracy when you over bore ,, well I guess that's the way You think ,,, I KNOW different
If you think Cockerpunk is a Scientist , good for you ,,, BUT he's not
Yes he did all these barrel tests and produced some " Findings " basically his Thoughts on paper ,, and most really don't care about what he thinks or says
It's been MY EXPERIENCE in the field , shootin the same marker for about 13 years now , barrel to paint bore matching improves Accuracy , consistency over the chrono & air efficiency

Oh ghost flanker, if you believe that more than what your own experience is, i just can't help you.
Ok, well my personal experience tells me that paintball accuracy is virtually the same between any of my barrels ... as far as I can tell, anyway. But my personal experience means nothing to the person to whom I'm presenting my argument, and rightfully so. Using only personal experience to support my claim will not be very convincing to anyone who is not already in agreement with me. What is needed here is demonstrable evidence.

Psychology has shown that different people can perceive the same observation very differently, especially if certain biases of theirs differ. Humans are fallible as all hell when it comes to stuff like this, and we are all highly susceptible to something called expectation bias. Now, could I be the one whose personal experience is in total error? Absolutely. My expectation bias towards the idea that barrel accuracy is a total myth, when it's actually not, could be skewing my perception of my observations, not unlike a placebo effect. This is precisely why it is so important to remove all subjectivity by testing things in a fair, scientific manner. So, yes, I will believe demonstrable evidence over anecdotal evidence every time. Gordon and Bryce may not be scientists, and Gordon may not be likable as a person, but those things have no bearing on whether the barrel tests they performed were scientifically sound and incorporated proper statistical analysis of the results to determine their significance. Furthermore, their testing methods were highly transparent to the community on techpb which effectively enabled sufficient peer review. As far as I am aware, no other quality tests have ever replicated their experiments and failed to reproduce their results. If you have access to, or are able to demonstrate convincing evidence that contradicts or dispels Punkworks' barrel test results, I invite you to share it here. If you can demonstrate that Punkworks' test results are really nothing more than Gordon's subjective thoughts on paper or are otherwise unreliable as evidence, please share it. If you do, I will happily change my stance on this topic; I'd rather find out I'm wrong than win an internet debate and continue to believe in something that isn't true. But if you cannot support your claims, then I will have no choice but to follow the evidence that is available to me.

[ghost flanker]

athomas,

It's been demonstrated in tests that underboring to less than .010 does not result in a higher frequency of barrel breaks compared to bore matching. If you have data which contradicts the sources I've cited, I'd like to take a look.

[maniacmechanic]

due to popular request ,,, it's back !!

[ghost flanker]

Awesome. Thank you!

[athomas]

athomas,

It's been demonstrated in tests that underboring to less than .010 does not result in a higher frequency of barrel breaks compared to bore matching. If you have data which contradicts the sources I've cited, I'd like to take a look.You are correct. There isn't much difference between these two (borematching and underboring). The major difference is between underbore and bore matching compared to overboring. Even bore matching has an issue when you get a single odd paintball. This usually doesn't show up in normal rental paint, but will show up in fragile paint. If you jam that oversized paintball into a barrel opening that it doesn't fit into, the chances of it breaking go up significantly. I qualify the oversized paintball as one that has an odd size that causes one orientation to be larger than the opening it is going into.

I don't have my actual test data anymore, so it can't be used for a real scientific evaluation. That is long gone since my last move. The numbers were significant for the paint that was tested when it was done. The paint was not that bad for odd shapes but was really brittle so it showed the exaggerated consequences which was great for testing. The bore-matched (not even underbored) barrel had a breakage rate of about 5%. The overbored barrel had a breakage rate of about .1%. It was so significant of a difference it was astounding.

I had another paint that numbers weren't tested for that couldn't be shot out of a slightly underbore barrel without breakage (ie; 100% breakage) because it was so brittle. The barrel wasn't really under-bored that much. The paint was smaller than the barrel except it was slightly tighter than what I would consider to be an ideal borematch. Overboring allowed that paint to be used without breakage.

As an engineer I like exaggerated values trailing off to infinity. It often shows extreme events even if those events might never occur in use for the average user. The extremely fragile paint we used represented those infinity values. The normal user would probably never encounter those extremes so normal paint might act the same in an underbored barrel compared to a borematched or overbored barrel. In extreme cases however, the data does show that there is a difference. As the paint goes toward the fragile range the chances of breakage does go up for underbored barrels. This could be an issue for extreme tournament grade paint.

[going_home]

due to popular request ,,, it's back !!

Nice.

[vintage]

my $.02, I prefer twist locks. since I came back to paintball in late 2013 I have not been happy with any paint/barrel combination I have tried regardless of which mag I was using. 2 years ago at Tuna ball I could not hit Big Evil from 20 feet away on the fort field in 3 or 4 tries before he put me out. back in the 90's using a 16 inch spaa barrel I could lob paint well past 150 feet accurate enough to at least make people duck or move while covering teammates, now days I can't get people to duck at 30 feet. last year at Tuna ball using a freak on my X mag I could not consistently hold an 8 inch group on the back bunkers on the lego field. I bought a Stella from Simon and was still getting lit up by people I could not touch.

now back to the topic of this thread.

Ty McNeer and maybe XMT can do it but not with just any twist lock. if someone will measure a freak back for me(mine are still buried behind my hunting gear) the standard insert is 5 inches long. add length for the breach and the threaded end and you need a donor barrel that has enough meat at the where the tip threads in to be able to cut the threads. most tw barrels have only have 4 inches at the back to hold in the body then they either taper or are reduced in diameter and most of these won't work. the only barrel that comes to mind as usable is the old bull barrels that used to come with them. then there is the cost. it will probably cost as much to have this done as it would to just buy one of the existing backs off of ebay or one of the bst forums. there is currently a new in package stainless one on ebay.

my other $.02.

[ghost flanker]

You are correct. There isn't much difference between these two (borematching and underboring). The major difference is between underbore and bore matching compared to overboring. Even bore matching has an issue when you get a single odd paintball. This usually doesn't show up in normal rental paint, but will show up in fragile paint. If you jam that oversized paintball into a barrel opening that it doesn't fit into, the chances of it breaking go up significantly. I qualify the oversized paintball as one that has an odd size that causes one orientation to be larger than the opening it is going into.

I don't have my actual test data anymore, so it can't be used for a real scientific evaluation. That is long gone since my last move. The numbers were significant for the paint that was tested when it was done. The paint was not that bad for odd shapes but was really brittle so it showed the exaggerated consequences which was great for testing. The bore-matched (not even underbored) barrel had a breakage rate of about 5%. The overbored barrel had a breakage rate of about .1%. It was so significant of a difference it was astounding.

I had another paint that numbers weren't tested for that couldn't be shot out of a slightly underbore barrel without breakage (ie; 100% breakage) because it was so brittle. The barrel wasn't really under-bored that much. The paint was smaller than the barrel except it was slightly tighter than what I would consider to be an ideal borematch. Overboring allowed that paint to be used without breakage.

As an engineer I like exaggerated values trailing off to infinity. It often shows extreme events even if those events might never occur in use for the average user. The extremely fragile paint we used represented those infinity values. The normal user would probably never encounter those extremes so normal paint might act the same in an underbored barrel compared to a borematched or overbored barrel. In extreme cases however, the data does show that there is a difference. As the paint goes toward the fragile range the chances of breakage does go up for underbored barrels. This could be an issue for extreme tournament grade paint.
Now this is interesting! That's a 50:1 ratio between overbore barrels and all other barrels! This is in stark contrast to Punkworks's tests which showed no significant difference between underbore, overbore, and bore matched. Perhaps they used a thicker shelled paint in their tests. If cockerpunk happens across this thread, maybe he can fill us in on the brand and brittleness of paint that he used to test barrel breaks.

Of course, I'm more interested in the performance and reliability of higher quality paint that flies straight, not cheap rental paint or house paint. Paints of interest to me include makes such as high quality rec paint like Grafitti, GI 4 Star, etc. as well as uber-brittle tournament paint like Redemption, GI 5 Star, etc.

I have so many questions about your test; Do you recall the brands of paint that you used in your test to achieve such significant results? Any chance you remember what the drop test results for said paint was? Do you think I could replicate your results using HK Supreme, which breaks reliably in a drop test on drop 1 from a height of 18"-36"? What was the approximate temperature during your test? Was the same gun and loader used throughout the test? Did you adjust your velocity to the same fps each time you changed bore size?

[Nobody]

Now this is interesting! That's a 50:1 ratio between overbore barrels and all other barrels! This is in stark contrast to Punkworks's tests which showed no significant difference between underbore, overbore, and bore matched. Perhaps they used a thicker shelled paint in their tests. If cockerpunk happens across this thread, maybe he can fill us in on the brand and brittleness of paint that he used to test barrel breaks.

Of course, I'm more interested in the performance and reliability of higher quality paint that flies straight, not cheap rental paint or house paint. Paints of interest to me include makes such as high quality rec paint like Grafitti, GI 4 Star, etc. as well as uber-brittle tournament paint like Redemption, GI 5 Star, etc.

I have so many questions about your test; Do you recall the brands of paint that you used in your test to achieve such significant results? Any chance you remember what the drop test results for said paint was? Do you think I could replicate your results using HK Supreme, which breaks reliably in a drop test on drop 1 from a height of 18"-36"? What was the approximate temperature during your test? Was the same gun and loader used throughout the test?

That is because you try to believe that punkwerks "data" as verbatim. Paint is a fluid, ever changing variable that goes through changes from manufacturer to manufacturer and to freshness, to environmental effects. They were ok in Wisconsin, but is that the same weather in California or Texas, or NJ or Florida? If anything, you use it as a base, and apply your own experiences, your own conditions(like if you shoot the highest quality paint or the cheapest), and your own choices.

I really wish people stopped trying to put static results to paintball. I have shot dozens of different paint, and some shot great, some didn't, some even was good for a year then changed, or just consistently awful. I accept that i can not change how the paint shoots but try to adjust my style and my barrels. Some barrels work great, some don't. And in paintball, we all know that some day you shoot lasers never getting hit. Other days, you are a paint magnet that would be lucky to hit water if they fell out of a boat.

Yet cocker barrels will still be better than twistlocks just for the simple reason of availability in whatever size, style and length you want.

[bowcycle]

just a personal observation on overboring:
3 years ago at OK-DDay (eastern OK heat and humidity in June), I used a freak barrel on my ULE mag w/ lvl10 classic bolt. I shot 3 cases of Redemption over the week and used the insert that wouldn't let the paint roll through, but required a consistent "puff" of air to blow them out. That week I broke about 2-3 rounds in the barrel per half-day of play. (some days are only minis and Saturday is the full day)

last year at OK-DDay (same location and time of year with a higher heat index than 2014), I used the same marker, same barrel, and Redemption paint, but went a size up on inserts over what required blow-thru. This allowed roll-out on most of the paint, but a few balls would require a "tap" to get them through. I didn't have a single ball break the entire week. Never had to squeegee my barrel.

I can't effectively speak to accuracy differences, but the breakage differences were pretty clear.

[athomas]

Now this is interesting! That's a 50:1 ratio between overbore barrels and all other barrels! This is in stark contrast to Punkworks's tests which showed no significant difference between underbore, overbore, and bore matched. Perhaps they used a thicker shelled paint in their tests. If cockerpunk happens across this thread, maybe he can fill us in on the brand and brittleness of paint that he used to test barrel breaks.

Of course, I'm more interested in the performance and reliability of higher quality paint that flies straight, not cheap rental paint or house paint. Paints of interest to me include makes such as high quality rec paint like Grafitti, GI 4 Star, etc. as well as uber-brittle tournament paint like Redemption, GI 5 Star, etc.

I have so many questions about your test; Do you recall the brands of paint that you used in your test to achieve such significant results? Any chance you remember what the drop test results for said paint was? Do you think I could replicate your results using HK Supreme, which breaks reliably in a drop test on drop 1 from a height of 18"-36"? What was the approximate temperature during your test? Was the same gun and loader used throughout the test? Did you adjust your velocity to the same fps each time you changed bore size?It was a while ago, but I believe the paint on our test was Draxxus. I can't remember the grade, but the seams were really weak for that batch. They were a 1 drop break for most of the paint. We only tested the drop from shoulder height so I can't attest to how low it could go and still break. The hopper used was an VL Egg. We didn't want something that would provide a force fed ball into the breach. The weather conditions were cool and dry. I suspect it was about 50 degrees farenheit. This paint had a flaw that allowed a test like this to exaggerate any results. The 50:1 ratio is pretty exaggerated and doesn't represent how most paint will function in similar tests but it does highlight a potential issue. I suspect any really brittle paint will give breakage results but may not give the exaggerated results we had, because of the flaw that our paint had.

The paint that broke on every shot was a random paint that someone gave us. I don't know what it was. It was just brutally brittle.

I used the results for personal play style. All tournaments going forward, were played using overbored barrels in all instances. I played several years of X-ball and can count on 1 hand the number of ball I broke in my guns using overbored barrels, even when others using the same paint were having multiple breaks per game.

[tucson.az.jbreen]

Doc's tanto barrel really made a difference for my mag. With my dye ultra lite(.693) my fps was all over the place. Lie between 270 and 310. Multiple times playing, multiple fields meaning different Chrono boxes. The indoor field in Phoenix restricts you to 265, and I was between 260 and 270 all day, no issues running the tanto barrel with a .684

My buddy ran the same .684 on his impulse, and his little brother ran .682 on a Spyder tl and was nailing people all day with a zip tied hopper.

We all used their new custom field blend from gi sports.

Shell was good, fill was invisible ink blue, hard to tell if you hit someone.

[ghost flanker]

Just got a Doc's Tanto barrel, myself. Aside from the fact that it's freaky, I also greatly appreciate the light weight and simplistic styling of it. Goes perfectly on an XMT ULE minimag body.
93631
Love, love, love this gun! So damn light and comfy to hold. Took her out in this configuration for the first time last weekend. Big outlaw woodsball game. She Chuck Norris'd the living hell out of the other team for the first 2 games before I started feeling bad and switched over to my classic mag and ultimately my Phantom.

[ghost flanker]

That is because you try to believe that punkwerks "data" as verbatim. Paint is a fluid, ever changing variable that goes through changes from manufacturer to manufacturer and to freshness, to environmental effects. They were ok in Wisconsin, but is that the same weather in California or Texas, or NJ or Florida? If anything, you use it as a base, and apply your own experiences, your own conditions(like if you shoot the highest quality paint or the cheapest), and your own choices.

I really wish people stopped trying to put static results to paintball. I have shot dozens of different paint, and some shot great, some didn't, some even was good for a year then changed, or just consistently awful. I accept that i can not change how the paint shoots but try to adjust my style and my barrels. Some barrels work great, some don't. And in paintball, we all know that some day you shoot lasers never getting hit. Other days, you are a paint magnet that would be lucky to hit water if they fell out of a boat.

Yet cocker barrels will still be better than twistlocks just for the simple reason of availability in whatever size, style and length you want.
The questions you have raised about whether we can confidently generalize Punkworks's conclusions across different climates and brands/batches of paint are not without relevance, but these concerns are not good reasons to dismiss their research, either, and I think you do yourself a disservice by doing so...if that is what you're doing. I fear that many forum go-ers on AO and other sites are all too ready to dismiss Punkworks's findings, not because the conclusions are overly presumptive or because the data was poorly collected, but simply because cockerpunk is widely disliked as a person. I have no opinion about the guy one way or or the other. What I do care about is the research they did, which as far as I'm concerned was very well done.

Now if you truly feel that more research involving a greater variety of weather conditions (Punkworks did perform all their tests indoors to rule out any environmental variables that could skew the data) and more brands/batches of paint would be needed before a universally conclusive consensus on barrel accuracy could be reached, then I can respect that. But that doesn't mean that until then, we are therefore all entitled to our own facts regarding barrel performance. If you think that differences in barrel accuracy are possible with the right paint and weather conditions, then future research will first have to demonstrate it. Until then, it's best to follow the evidence that is available to you, even if one of the people responsible for said evidence is a total douche.

As far as people trying to put static results on paintball, I hope that they don't stop trying. It's good to ask questions, to test your hypotheses, to allow pier review for others to attempt to replicate your tests. The more research, the better. Sure, paintballs have a ton of tiny variables, but I think you're being a bit pessimistic about what good research can reveal.

[athomas]

I personally like Punkworks tests as well. I think they have great relevance. They capture a lot of real data. We could put a lot of variables onto different paint and barrels during testing. The tests would become very long and tedious if we rigorously tested for all of those variables. In most cases its not practical. In some cases, its not even possible to test for certain parameters in the environment where the test is being done. If we want real testing, it needs to be done in a lab controlled environment. Until then, we need guys like Cockerpuck to run tests so we at least have something that isn't just marketing spin.