RT Classic L10 Tuning - Leak...

[Mondoatx]

Hey guys...

Got my L10 in the mail today and a high pressure piston...

Started with the red spring and 1.5 carrier (biggest I had)... and worked my way down to the size 0 carrier (it was leaking less and less with each carrier - tried 1 and 2 shims with each carrier)... with size 0 (on the second carrier oring I tried) I had a tiny leak out of the bolt /power tube which got smaller the more and mote shims I added... when I got to 4 it stopped...

Was fooling with the gun after words (dry firing a little bit - excited I got it to work)... and after a while it started leaking again... added a 5th shim... and it got much worse.. went back to 4 and switched to the gold spring... still leaking... velocity was high so I dialed it down a bit... still leaking...

It leaks a little bit... and if I put the slightest pressure on the trigger it seals and stops... not sure what is going on... the L10 is kind of new to me... messed with it a bit on the RT Pro... but this is my first time installing 1 from the very beginning...

Let me know your thoughts... Thanks everyone (as always)!!

M

[Mondoatx]

Alright... just noticed something weird... if I pull the trigger and hold it down... it fired at a very low ROF as long as I hold down the trigger (maybe 1 - .5 seconds between shots).. I am baffled (not that that is that difficult)...

Earlier when I held down the trigger the leak stopped... but that is not happening any longer...

Discovered the grip frame screw was a bit loose... tightened it... aired it up... held down trigger... still firing at very low ROF as long as I hold down the trigger... just much slower now that I tightened the grip frame screw (maybe 3 seconds between shots)...

Let me know your thoughts.

[Laku]

Don't use shims. Always use the same o-ring, that's what you're tuning. Follow the instructions in this post here to tune (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?43538-**-Official-Level-10-Problems-Thread-**&p=2828797#post2828797).

You should check that your sear isn't worn. The edge that catches the bolt should be pretty sharp.

[nak81783]

1. If the Level 7 was not leaking down the power tube, put that back in for now.

2. Does the RT Classic have one or two tiny vent holes on the outside of the valve? If one, where is it? Sorry, I can't remember, and this will dictate next steps. Regardless, with the trigger released, does it leak from one (or both) of the tiny vent holes?

3. Does your valve have one or two orings at the top of the on/off? RT Classics, I believe, had one, but it may have been milled out for the second oring to accept a ULT at some point in its life.

If you do not have a leak down the power tube with the Level 7 installed, and it slow fires with the trigger held back, you likely have bad oring(s) in one of the following locations.

A. On/Off top

B. Small oring aft of the brass reg seat holder

C. Reg pin assy

Once the leak/slow fire is resolved, tuning the Level 10 per the link Laku provided should be fairly easy, provided your sear is good as Laku indicated.

[Mondoatx]

Thank Laku... checked the sear... (it was brand new last week from agd... the old one had a large chip out of it)...

It is still in great shape.

[/QUOTE]You should check that your sear isn't worn. The edge that catches the bolt should be pretty sharp.[/QUOTE]

[Mondoatx]

nak,

Thanks for the input.

1. Put the level 7 back in... no leaks (from the power tube/bolt area or any of the vent holes on the valve)... and it fires like it should... but when I hold down the trigger it kind of rapid fire burps after a moment... constantly... so obviously something is amiss... I didn't notice it after the rebuild because I never held down the trigger...

2. The valve actually has 2 vent holes.... 1 close to the on/off - it is lined up with the hole the banjo threads into (90 degrees from it on the right hand side of the valve when you are pointing the gun like you are firing) and one on the back section of the valve (the part that houses the springs and the piston) on the top. Nothing is leaking at all with the level 7 back in... and nothing was leaking from these holes when I was trying to tune the L10.

3. It has 1 o ring at the top of the on off (the smaller diameter one)... now that you mention it though... my RT Pro (x valve) has 2... 1 sits inside the other... but the valve where it accepts the on/off is milled a little differently to accommodate 1 sitting inside the other... on the classic the smaller diameter O ring is recessed so it cannot sit inside a larger one... so it doesn't look like I am missing an o ring there.

A: When you say on off top... do you mean the one that sits on top of the on/off... or the one actually inside the on off?

B: I am not a sailor :D... but when I read aft... I take that to mean to the rear if you are pointing the gun as if firing... right?

C: Reg pin assembly: I know what this is... but want to check the other 2 o rings first...

All in all... there is obviously something else going on here... and that is leading to my difficulties with installing the L10...

Thanks man!


1. If the Level 7 was not leaking down the power tube, put that back in for now.

2. Does the RT Classic have one or two tiny vent holes on the outside of the valve? If one, where is it? Sorry, I can't remember, and this will dictate next steps. Regardless, with the trigger released, does it leak from one (or both) of the tiny vent holes?

3. Does your valve have one or two orings at the top of the on/off? RT Classics, I believe, had one, but it may have been milled out for the second oring to accept a ULT at some point in its life.

A: When you say on off top... do you mean the one that sits on top of the on/off... or the one actually inside the on off?

If you do not have a leak down the power tube with the Level 7 installed, and it slow fires with the trigger held back, you likely have bad oring(s) in one of the following locations.

A. On/Off top

B. Small oring aft of the brass reg seat holder

C. Reg pin assy

Once the leak/slow fire is resolved, tuning the Level 10 per the link Laku provided should be fairly easy, provided your sear is good as Laku indicated.

[Mondoatx]

Nak,

I replaced the one in the top half of the on off (the one inside where you have to unscrew the 2 pieces with wrenches) and I also checked that one on the back (closer to the shooter) of the brass reg seat holder... that o ring was actually sitting inside the back portion of the valve and not in the reg seat holder... not sure if the o ring was bad or if it was in NOT supposed to be in the back portion of the valve as opposed to sitting in the reg seat holder...

Aired up the gun... fired fine... nothing weird happened when I held down the trigger... so I guess now I will try tuning the level 10 again...

Thanks for all the help you guys (Laku and Nak)! I will update the thread later on with progress (hopefully)... or with additional questions.

M

[vintage]

could have been a microscopic piece of dirt on the o ring, also sometimes the o rings have to break in to seal. level 10--gold spring and the smallest carrier possible.

[Laku]

and the smallest carrier possible.

Probably meant largest that doesn't leak. :)

[vintage]

Probably meant largest that doesn't leak. :)

most of mine are one dot or one line for some reason.

[Mondoatx]

Hey guys,

Update: Spent several hours today and ran through all the carriers and both springs (red and gold) and no matter what I try I still have a small leak (even went through the carriers with a different o ring... and with a different white teflon washer)... ready to shoot myself in the face...

The 1 dot (.5) seems to fit the bolt per the instructions in the thread Laku posted... and it leaks... and then I go down to the 0 (no lines or dots) and it leaks too...

When I hold the trigger down the leak slowly goes away.

I know it is something in the power tube/level 10 components because when I got back to level 7 the gun fires fine and there is no leak happening at any time... at rest or when the trigger is being held down.

I think I am going to play with it tomorrow with level 7 just for fun... but I do want to get this sorted out eventually...

Let me know what you think.

Need to take a break... this is kind of starting to wear on my patience...

Thanks all.

M

[nak81783]

In Detroit-land visiting family. Pray for me. I'll get back with you asap tomorrow. ...if I make it out alive.

[Mondoatx]

In Detroit-land visiting family. Pray for me. I'll get back with you asap tomorrow. ...if I make it out alive.

Good luck brotha!! Thanks for all the help!

[Laku]

The 1 dot (.5) seems to fit the bolt per the instructions in the thread Laku posted... and it leaks... and then I go down to the 0 (no lines or dots) and it leaks too...


When I hold the trigger down the leak slowly goes away.

I know it is something in the power tube/level 10 components because when I got back to level 7 the gun fires fine and there is no leak happening at any time... at rest or when the trigger is being held down.

I think I am going to play with it tomorrow with level 7 just for fun... but I do want to get this sorted out eventually...

Let me know what you think.

I guess the mandatory question at this point is, have you oiled the gun? If not, then 2-3 drops to asa and cycle the gun with out the barrel for about 20 shots. And then try again.

To me this sounds like you might have some body/valve misalignment. If 1.5 feels like good match and it still leaks with 0 then there's definitely something else at play there.

How do you tighten the field strip screw? Finger tightness might not be enough, try Allen key.

Does the body sit flush with the rail? Make sure there's no crud between them. And that the body can't move independently from the rail when the grip frame is attached.

When it's leaking does pushing the twist lock barrel at some direction (up, down, left, right ) make the leak stop?

What about pushing forward from the back of the valve?

Does shooting with out the barrel change anything?


Need to take a break... this is kind of starting to wear on my patience...

Thanks all.

M

I can sympathize. Hang in there.

Edit: while typing this on my mobile I forgot that you had classic rt, so obviously with valve being inside the body there's no chance of it being misaligned. I think? I've never messed with one of those.

[nak81783]

Please confirm you've removed all the shims from the Level 10. If not, take them out, and try again. They can cause false leaks by positioning the bolt stem vent hole in front of the bolt stem carrier oring. Shims should only be used if the bolt hits an obstruction but doesn't vent.

If you've already removed the shims, try putting one at a time between the powetube oring carrier and plastic backing washer. I know this isn't where they're supposed to go, but I'm guessing, for whatever reason, the vent hole in the bolt stem is sitting too far back in your setup. I would think one or two would be all that's needed, since it sounds like it's right on the edge as is. If you put more than that in there, and it still leaks, try a different bolt stem carrier oring. If it still leaks after that, try the Level 10 bolt from your other marker. If that one doesn't leak, then you may have a bad bolt. I had one very early on where the press fit stem didn't seal for some reason.

There's other comments and questions to which I'll try respond when I get to a computer.

[vintage]

could be a bad bolt.

[nak81783]

Mondoatx,

To answer some of your other questions.

A. On/off top oring is #16 in diagram below. #15 is too for the valves that have it.

B. Yes, aft is rear. #9 oring in diagram below. And it's OK if it stays in the back half of the valve.

As others indicated, sometimes it's just a bit of crud, lack of oil, or an oring that's not quite broken in that can cause a leak. This is, I believe what was causing the burping/slow fire with triggered pulled, but we're most likely beyond this for the Level 10 issue. Let us know how the shimming and bolt swap I detailed above works out, and we'll go from there.

http://i.imgur.com/YWn5FEr.jpg

[Mondoatx]

Nak and everyone,

Thanks for all the help here... took the gun to the field today with the level7 installed... Chrono'd fine... 275-290 (had never chrono'd before LX or otherwise)...

I thought everything was good... took it out on the airball field for the first game of the day... Played a quick 3x3 and shot out everyone on the other team myself after losing a player... :headbang:

Unfortunately by the end of the game (as gratifying as it was) I was leaking out of the velocity hole... this was with 800 PSI input... last night I tried the SHP tank (1100 LBS) and the gun freaked out and started leaking from 2-3 different places (sounded like the banjo, velocity hole, and somewhere amid ship) after maybe 5 shots... so anyways... went with 800 PSI this morning... had the leak out of the velocity hole... switched guns... played some more games (hate wasting field time teching)...

At the end I took my last 50-75 rounds to the chrono with the RT classic to see if I could replicate the leak out of the velocity hole (when I had aired it up a couple of times without firing throughout the day it was not leaking)... after maybe 20-30 shots the leak came back... I fired a bunch over the chrono... I was getting some erratic velocity... 20-30 FPS from shot to shot... 270-300 maybe... and every once in a while it would shoot a super low velocity shot of maybe 180-190...next shot 270-300... so needless to say... all is not well with the gun... and whatever it is needs to be addressed to eliminate the variable before I try to get the LX working again...

Here is what I have done to the gun so far in my rebuild efforts:
Changed every O ring... from a fresh AGD parts kit... (including bolt spring, power tube tip o ring, inner power tube o ring, o ring inside the on/off, o ring on top of on off - #16, #9, #7, #2)
Also installed a brand new sear
Aslo installed a new high pressure piston (for the LX)
Also new banjo o rings

The only thing i haven't replaced is possibly #11... and definitely not the reg pin assembly...

So I guess I am going to check #11 (to see if I replaced it and if not see if I have another) and order a reg pin assembly (the gun is likely close to 20 years old and it may be original)... and go from there.

If that doesn't address the issue I will repost a fresh thread as this is no longer about LX... this is about figuring out what the underlying problem is and THEN I can try LX again...

Let me know your thoughts on what could be causing these issues... or if I am on the right track checking #11 and the reg pin assembly.

Thanks everyone!!

M

[athomas]

The # 11 oring is the regulator seat and will cause leaking out the adjuster if it leaks. Your regulator pin assembly should be fine, but you should replace the 2 orings on it. The kit should have those 2 orings and the plastic split washer that separates them.

Make sure everything is free of dirt or dust including the cavity where the regulator piston assembly sits.

[blackdeath1k]

Have you pulled out item 12 and replaced the 2 Orings on that? Them 2 got overlooked on my classic for 15 years. They caused all kinds of erratic leaks before they finally puked up all together. Seals to replace them are in the kit.

Edited to add......Athomas beat me to it.....

[Nobody]

Stop using a SHP tank. No more leaks...

Don't know why people keep using them. They cause more issues than any advantage you could get.