Mag use in 2019's big mech Events

[Sandman]

Recently I've had conversations with both the NXL and the Iron City Classic event promoters. Both events do not have a specific ban on the use of any kind of gun or valve as long as it does not exceed the guidelines. I asked specifically if X-valves or RT valves were banned. They are not. However, you will have your gun, team, player etc... banned if you are an idiot and attempt to defeat the rules.
The rules are constructed around not allowing a gun to rapid fire, burts fire, bounce fire, full auto or any other nonsense that a user tries to do that makes their gun shoot out of control. It's simple, set the gun up to shoot in control.

One shot per pull.
No RT effect .
No Bounce.
No rapid uncontrolled firing.
No sweet spotting the pull.

At this time there are no specific restrictions to any Automags as they have not had any issues so far. They have banned the use of double triggers on some guns like the CVO conversion, because they know for a fact that with a double trigger the gun can be walked at up to 17BPS. Therefore no double trigger on those guns. Mags have yet to be restricted in any way.

Please, if you enter an event using any version of an Automag do not push the rules. Do these things:

Do not set-up the guns with SHP tanks.
Keep your output at 800 psi or less. You need to stop any RT effect.
You may need lower input PSI with RT-style valves to eliminate the power curve on the RT effect.
The RT effect is not allowed! Don't do it. It will get you banned and restrictions put on Mags.

Do not use short on/off pins.
Use a longer pin to keep the activation point far enough away so you cannot shoot more than one shot per trigger activation.
.750 pins should be good but you might need longer depending on the specific gun and how it's been modded or built.
There are so many modded parts (rails, bodies, frames) floating around it's impossible to say one length will work.

Test your gun fully, so beyond any doubt it only shoots one ball per pull, and is impossible to make the gun double fire....EVER.
You should not be able to find any kind of sweet spot in your trigger path to activate a double shot or more...

If you need assistance in setting up a gun for an event, reach out via email to me and I'll work with you to make sure you are legal and stay legal.

If you know of an event promoter banning mags because they are ignorant of the product, let me know I will reach out and educate them.
Mech event promoters should understand that Mags are able to define and refine their rate of fire and that it is players who choose to create run away guns.
Back in the day when the arms race for guns was on and no rules existed there was a wild west attitude. Anything goes! and Mags were excellent at anything goes! Not anymore.
Smart promoters will punish the player for breaking the rules and not ban the gun.
However, if players of a certain make of gun are found to always be breaking the rules then some promoters may feel they have no choice but to ban or restrict because they don't need the headache.
Let's not let this happen.

Let's get Mags back in the game, by playing by the rules. Use your skills to win.

[TheRealKaz]

Would switching to the UltraLight Trigger kit also help reduce bouncing? Or is that just as dependent on input pressure and set up?

[BigEvil]

FYI - X/RT/Emag valves shoot much more consistently at <850 psi. I have ones that I run at 700-750 that are awesome. IMO that is what you should be aiming for..

[Sandman]

Would switching to the UltraLight Trigger kit also help reduce bouncing? Or is that just as dependent on input pressure and set up?

The ULT was never intended to work with SHP tanks. I'm sure it's been used in some set-ups with RT effect, but its intention is to reduce the weight of the pull not be reactive.
Ultimately its up to you how you want it to feel. As long as it's passes the testing, do what works best for you.
I think stock on/off with .750 pin or longer will work best to stay in the rules, but that's just my observation.

[luke]

My T-Rex should be able to be tuned to fit the rules, I can even put a stiffer spring in the T-Rex to slow it down.

[Sandman]

My T-Rex should be able to be tuned to fit the rules, I can even put a stiffer spring in the T-Rex to slow it down.

The T-Rex is still using the AGD stock linkage and sear for firing, so it's not specifically restricted like guns with direct valve influence like the CVO.
Ultimately it will be based on whether they have any issues with it on the field. If the events feel like the gun shoots too fast due to manipulation of the mechanism..they will ban or restrict.
If a player plans to use your mechanism with a Mag they need to make sure it does not defeat the intent of the rules.
Look at it like the electronic rules. 10.2 BPS. Basically they are trying to keep guns at 10bps. Mech guns can exceed that, but they don't want it. So it will be up to the player to make sure the gun is legal.

[luke]

Yea, I was talking to a customer about this a few weeks back. On the T-Rex, I can change out the internal spring, tune the LPR and input pressure from the tank and get the correct length on/off to de-tune it, and as long as the player controls himself it shouldn't be a problem. :D

[JKR]

The solution I would like to see but know it will never happen...aluminum "Classic" valves being released!

[Tidowe]

First off, thank you sandman. You're the mag ambassador. I too would like to see mags vs cockers at these events like the old days. Although I'm a fan of cockers too. Mags have my heart. I hope the same observation will be used on cocker trigger pull. I think I read somewhere that nothing short of a 2mm trigger pull will be accepted.

[Walking Stick]

So general rules for tournament friendly 'Mags:
- classic valves: none
- X valves: no Reactive sweet spot, tank output below 1000psi, on/off pin no less than 0.750"
- ULTs: same as X valves?
- pneumatic triggers: same as X valves?

But the AutoResponse frame is still a no-go, yeah?

[DaveCilio]

Sandman posted: Let's get Mags back in the game, by playing by the rules. Use your skills to win.

Already have Sandman.. Bottom left of the last Iron City Classic poster, what's that in my hand? :-) AGD!!!

100665

[captian pinky]

So general rules for tournament friendly 'Mags:
- classic valves: none
- X valves: no Reactive sweet spot, tank output below 1000psi, on/off pin no less than 0.750"
- ULTs: same as X valves?
- pneumatic triggers: same as X valves?

But the AutoResponse frame is still a no-go, yeah?


Honestly i would avoid the ult in double trigger frames as it could be considered walkable. same goes for the trex.

also i believe there is a clause in the rules about markers not having trigger assist. I was reading this as basically a direct linkage between the sear of the marker unless it is a spool in which case it has to have a single trigger frame.

[captian pinky]

Thank you for making this post Sandman.
If you end up needing help please let me know. I am more than willing to help keep them on the field.
#BeardedWorks

[Sandman]

So general rules for tournament friendly 'Mags:
- classic valves: none
- X valves: no Reactive sweet spot, tank output below 1000psi, on/off pin no less than 0.750"
- ULTs: same as X valves?
- pneumatic triggers: same as X valves?

But the AutoResponse frame is still a no-go, yeah?

Classic valves should not have any issues for sure. Unless you do something to modify the gun.
800 psi or less....if you try using 1000 psi I'm sure you will be booted. It's been discussed about even banning output over 800psi in mech events.
on/off pins under .750 are typically used to create a sweet spot. I wouldn't recommend it.
ULT's can be used. Again no specific limitations. But if you make the gun capable of firing too fast and you decide to walk to trigger, it's gonna be on you. Make sure your shim stack doesn't create double, or multi-fire effects.
Do a ULT with single trigger frame as Pinky suggested.
Do Pneumatics with single trigger frame too.

Autoresponse triggers are innately dangerous because you can't pull the trigger without firing two shots. Any kind of burst of double fire mode is banned at my field and I'm sure likely banned from Mech tournament use.
Although I did not specifically address that frame, the assumption is those violate the rules.

Lets' keep it simple, safe and under control.



Already have Sandman.. Bottom left of the last Iron City Classic poster, what's that in my hand? :-) AGD!!!

100665

Oh yeah!

[Sandman]

The solution I would like to see but know it will never happen...aluminum "Classic" valves being released!

Never going to happen from AGD. Costs basically the same to produce and the X-valve is quite better. Plus there are 100,000 classic valves already out there that will last until we are all dead.
Just hit the gym for a week so you don't notice the weight difference!

[captian pinky]

Not to add to the confusion but some of the autoresponse frames do have a notch in the top of the pin that allows it to only fire on pull not on release. It essentially limits the pull to the first half. Just thought i would add it.

[alpha_q_up23]

Never going to happen from AGD. Costs basically the same to produce and the X-valve is quite better. Plus there are 100,000 classic valves already out there that will last until we are all dead.
Just hit the gym for a week so you don't notice the weight difference!

What about new aluminum backs for classic valves? for anodizing purposes of course, I know I have a pump build waiting for anodizing cause I want a an aluminum back and can't bear to send off my shocktech back and get that purdy lasering removed

[Gundam V]

What about new aluminum backs for classic valves? for anodizing purposes of course, I know I have a pump build waiting for anodizing cause I want a an aluminum back and can't bear to send off my shocktech back and get that purdy lasering removedThe shocktech etch isn't that impressive. I think you should just get it re-anno to match your build.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[alpha_q_up23]

When you see Bacci on occasion anything done to deface old paintball parts(no matter how cool it ends up being) always comes with a sense of shame lol

[Gundam V]

Alright, I'll give you that one. I retract my previous statement.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[alpha_q_up23]

He already teased me about cocker threading/freak boring a splash barrel and pump milling a matching rail...
I gave him this look ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but deep down I cried a bit

[Nobody]

When you see Bacci on occasion anything done to deface old paintball parts(no matter how cool it ends up being) always comes with a sense of shame lol

And he is?

Seriously, unless he is willing to over pay what a junk part is(really all aftermarket reg backs did nothing over stock), it is yours to do as you please. If he wants to preserve the part, have him replace it for you. He is nothing but a part hound masquerading as a historian. If it wasn't for Firpo, he would never get any of the guns he "rescues" ahooting. Just a man with a fat wallet...

[keiko_819]

I’ve seen plenty of fixes done by Bacci on the fly at throw together event days, including some of my own old markers. Anyone who has taken time out of their personal life to show you how cool old stuff could be and invest hours upon hours making videos and interviews for the public to check out is what the paintball community really needs. Sure Firpo May have a hand in helping but who wouldn’t want a master tech on their side?

[alpha_q_up23]

really all aftermarket reg backs did nothing over stock
Yeah, you're totally right, they don't do anything over stock, cause as everyone knows who owns a classic valve, steel is as light as aluminum and can be anodized:rolleyes:

[Nobody]

Yeah, you're totally right, they don't do anything over stock, cause as everyone knows who owns a classic valve, steel is as light as aluminum and can be anodized:rolleyes:

Was talking about performance, not looks. Besides, i am plenty strong, lifting my ego(persona not marker) all over in this joint!

[TheRealKaz]

I would agree lighter is performance, but since you've got that covered with that ego of yours.. haha

I just got signed up to a local mech tournament. Going to play around with a ULT to see if I can get it nice and light but with-in the rules.

[keiko_819]

Awesome to see your planning on using your mag, I’m doing a local 10man that consist of 7 pumps and 3 mechs, I’m pretty sure we will have at least 5 or 6 mags going that day, under 850 psi and we should all be good!

[JKR]

Never going to happen from AGD. Costs basically the same to produce and the X-valve is quite better.

I understand your position from a company standpoint. However, I will say "better" is certainly a matter of opinion in this discussion.

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

https://www.nxlclassicpaintball.com/10-man-rulebook

For reference :)

[Tidowe]

We need a like button.

[Gundam V]

I understand your position from a company standpoint. However, I will say "better" is certainly a matter of opinion in this discussion.In this case I don't see how this is a matter of opinion. You have a valve system with a fast recharge and the other does not. Objectively, the rt valve is better than the classic valve. Even if you made them both from aluminum, the rt valve would still be a better performer. The cherry on top is since it based on pressure you can control whether you have an rt effect or not

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[JKR]

In this case I don't see how this is a matter of opinion. You have a valve system with a fast recharge and the other does not. Objectively, the rt valve is better than the classic valve. Even if you made them both from aluminum, the rt valve would still be a better performer. The cherry on top is since it based on pressure you can control whether you have an rt effect or not

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

Uhhh…

The Classic valve will reliably recharge faster than the electro capped rate at these events. Your argument is invalid.

The Classic valve is better in the sense that it is simpler, has a couple less moving parts, and doesn't care what pressure you feed it - it won't go RT.

[Gundam V]

What's does electros have to do with this? We're talking about classic valves and rt valves. So the classic valve doesn't have an rt effect, doesn't change the fact that the rt is a better performing valve. The only thing I can think of that classic will do that the rt shouldn't is take CO2 as a propelant. Aside from that, looking at everything else between the classic and rt valve, the rt is a better performing valve.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[JKR]

What's does electros have to do with this? We're talking about classic valves and rt valves. So the classic valve doesn't have an rt effect, doesn't change the fact that the rt is a better performing valve. The only thing I can think of that classic will do that the rt shouldn't is take CO2 as a propelant. Aside from that, looking at everything else between the classic and rt valve, the rt is a better performing valve.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

We are talking about Automags being used in mech events.

You tried to argue that because the Classic valve doesn't recharge as fast as the RT that it is somehow inferior for these mech events. My point it, the Classic valve recharges faster than necessary at said mech events...including the capped rate of Electros at the events. Your point that the Classic valve is inferior to the RT valve in mech events (the point of this thread to begin with) is invalid.

[JKR]

Classic valves recharge between 15-18 cycles a second. If you are exceeding that at a mech event, you are cheating and defeating the purpose of the mech event.

[Gundam V]

I never said that. Yes, I said that the rt valve is superior to the classic mag valve. But I never said that the classic mag valve couldn't be used for the mech tournament. You said and I quote, "the solution I would like to see but know it will never happen...aluminum "classic" valves being released!" Sandman than said, "Never going to happen from AGD. Costs basically the same to produced and the X-valve is quite better." Than you said, "I understand your position from a company standpoint. However, I will say "better" is certainly a matter of opinion in this discussion."

All I'm saying I don't see how this is a matter of opinion, when objectively the rt valve is superior and that I don't see the point of making an aluminum classic valve when the x-valve which performs better already exists.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[Gundam V]

I didn't mean for this to sound like I'm trying to undermine you, nor am I trying to be an a-hole toward you. I'm just trying to understand the reason of why you said better is certainly a matter of opinion in this discussion.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[JKR]

It is your opinion that the rt valve is superior because you define superior as recharging faster.

I define superior as something else...a slightly simpler design that can be used in said tournaments without any questions, issues, or possible accusations of cheating.

Your definition of superior, recharge rate, is moot for these mech events as the recharge rate of the Classic valve can far exceed the parameters of the mech events. Not only that, but its recharge rate exceeds human ability to shoot a single trigger, mechanical 'gun. For these reasons, I maintain your definition of "superior" is invalid.

[JKR]

Not trying to be an a-hole to you either. My point is only that for mech tourney events, the original topic of this discussion, the definition of "better" is subjective when comparing the two valves.

I won't argue one bit if you are saying the RT valve is better for walkable semi play, open play RT shenanigans and, of course, electro duties when discussing the mighty EMAG.

[Gundam V]

Ok, now that you clarified how your defining better, I'm understanding where your coming from. Also, I want to clarify my point as well, I wasn't just thinking about recharge as in just shooting fast, recharge matters if your the kind of person that rides the trigger *cough* someone like me *cough*, it helps that when I use rt valves. With classic valves I tend to not practice good trigger discipline, rt is really not a concern in that aspect. Also the fact that you can lighten the trigger with a ule trigger kit is a boon for x-valve owners. Back to point though, I now get the angle that your coming from. Thanks for clarifying the context of "better" in the conversation.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[Sandman]

JKR, I can completely see where you are coming from. In context I agree. There is at least one thing you'd want to do with a classic valve. Replace the classic rail and sear with the pinned rail and sear from the RT style. This is much more stable and creates a more solid trigger pull action. Of course you can add a level 10 to the classic valve and then you pretty much have all you need.

I'd love to have some classic aluminum valves. They would be fun to have, Just not feasible to run them.

[raiderpb]

Can someone give me a definitive definition of "RT" and how this constitues a Reactive Trigger?

It is my understanding that RT = ReTro valve. Also, according to this thread a Reactive Trigger requires modifying the Automag outside of manufacturer specs.

I am trying to get my markers ready for the MSPA and the rules specifically call out Automag RT.
"All MSPA events are mechanical markers only and must fire by the activation of a pneumatic switch and must only shoot one shot for each complete action on pulling and releasing the trigger.
Auto mag RT’S are not allowed at any event nor are the double trigger conversion "

[Gundam V]

Can someone give me a definitive definition of "RT" and how this constitues a Reactive Trigger?

It is my understanding that RT = ReTro valve. Also, according to this thread a Reactive Trigger requires modifying the Automag outside of manufacturer specs.

I am trying to get my markers ready for the MSPA and the rules specifically call out Automag RT.
"All MSPA events are mechanical markers only and must fire by the activation of a pneumatic switch and must only shoot one shot for each complete action on pulling and releasing the trigger.
Auto mag RT’S are not allowed at any event nor are the double trigger conversion "RTs aren't outside of manufacturers spec that I'm aware of. That's why its called RT, some of the other more knowledgable peeps on here can tell you the specifics. But what I do know is that the RT is input pressure sensitive. What I mean by that is at 600-750, the RT valve will shoot semi just fine. Anything higher will make reactive trigger more prevalent and easier to activate. If I missed anything I'm sure someone will correct me.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[Fred]

Question: How are they viewing pneumatic triggers? Mine does not RT/run away/sweet spot at all (I think I'm running 800psi into it), safety works (yay), but its definitely walkable and in the right hands could most definitely rip sustained strings of high teens I'm sure.

[vintage]

Can someone give me a definitive definition of "RT" and how this constitues a Reactive Trigger?

It is my understanding that RT = ReTro valve. Also, according to this thread a Reactive Trigger requires modifying the Automag outside of manufacturer specs.

I am trying to get my markers ready for the MSPA and the rules specifically call out Automag RT.
"All MSPA events are mechanical markers only and must fire by the activation of a pneumatic switch and must only shoot one shot for each complete action on pulling and releasing the trigger.
Auto mag RT’S are not allowed at any event nor are the double trigger conversion "


this reads like they know nothing about the factory function of an RT style valve and are only going off of what they have seen/heard from modified valves.

get with Sandman and have him talk to the people running the event.

[the123]

No battery, 1 shot per pull + no bouncing double shots if you gently pull on the trigger when the ref (or event organizer) checks it, i'd say you are legal. I think some people have a preconceived notion that all RT's will go into 'runaway' on demand. When that simply isn't the case. That's a malfunction.

[Konigballer]

this reads like they know nothing about the factory function of an RT style valve and are only going off of what they have seen/heard from modified valves.

get with Sandman and have him talk to the people running the event.

The ghostly spectre of the RT Classic still looms large after 20+ years...

I shoot both every time I play. However, I'm actually of the same mind as JKR on the Classic Valve being superior, except for weight, over the RT/X Valve for modern tourney and recball play. It's simpler and less finicky (at least in my experience), has no trigger bounce to scare event organizers and refs, and with a preset tank is often shows more velocity consistency over the chrony. The 10.5 bps cap is almost universal at this point, so the RT/Valve's faster recharge rate really doesn't mean anything except for maybe scenario games were the rules are lax, or backyard fun. It's like saying "My Formula 1 car is faster/better than your Nascar stock car." Well, sure it is, except you aren't allowed to race in NASCAR with it so it's meaningless. I know it won't happen, but a aluminum Classic valve would be awesome!

Just yesterday I got a compliment from a regular at my home field after I gogged him in a couple games, and his hopper in another, with my plane-jane Classic valve mag. He was really amazed how accurate it was shooting. I was using crap field paint overbored with a old 10in Perfect Bore barrel, and somehow that thing was just ball on ball all day. It was averaging +-3 to 4 fps over the chrono, because "Quality Always Shoots Straight"!

[Walking Stick]

Wow, someone needs to update those MSPA organizers about the 1996 Automag RT and set them straight. They were probably Autococker fanbois back in the day and never bothered to educate themselves.

[Nobody]

It's more of the spectre of uninformed versus actual knowledge of the gun/setup. Most are more familiar with Tippmann RTs, about adding in a part to make the trigger rod return.

Raiderpb: 1st, RTs are referred to the classic automag RT, not specifically the ReTro valve or the factory offering of RT ULE, which is a basic Xvalve in a RT length rail. 2nd, stock, 650-800psi, the stock on/off will not bounce but will retain a nice snappy trigger. 3rd, the double trigger just allows you to sweetspot the trigger so it can go RT. So if anything, take your gun how you want it, expect them to question it, and expect to use something else if they flat out ban it. Sure, you can put a stock on/off(.750" on/off pin), a cf frame and dare people to get it to go reactive, but i really doubt that will happen.