Unrealistic movies that make you mad-Army see what you think

[talls]

Well I just got back from seeing We Were Soldiers and while it was a good movie they had some discrepancies that are common in war movies. Most war movies, with the exception of Saving Private Ryan and probably a couple more, have many things that are so unrealistic it makes my head spin.

For one, the worst mistake I have ever seen in a war movie happens in almost all just in order to dramatize it. In normal combat situations where typical weapons are used (M16's, etc.) it pisses me off when I see a guy not being able to hit an enemy that is about 50-100 yards away. I have been around M16's and have fired many before, and I have got to say if you can see it by god you can hit it(if your target is within range). They are calibrated at 300 yards for a reason, and that is close quarters combat is very rare because noone within that range should be able to move without being killed(unless under extreme cover like night, heavy smoke, air support, etc.) However, in movies it seems so fake that a trained soldier armed with an assault rifle couldn't hit sand if he fell off a camel. Hollywood tries to say that they are doing it for the people that were there, but if that were the case wouldn't they at least show what it was like!?! Another thing is that tactics in movies are a joke. How many times have you been like "What are you doing" when some idiot decides to try and do some Rambo style move that in a real world situation wouldn't have a chance in heck to succeed.

Well I am done ranting and I would list many examples of these different things, but I wouldn't want to ruin the movie for anybody. Oh and as recently stated in another thread about people walking out during the list of names, those people are the most inconciderate, ungrateful, shameful people that live in America. That is what makes some of the peoples standpoints so skewed on the military, because they don't look at who gave their lives for our country but instead on the things they might have done differently. Sorry about the rant but I just got a little worked up and want to know what everyone thinks about this.

[AutoMaggot]

Probably the worst offenders are all of those 1980s "Lets feel good to be American" war movies (you know the ones... Top Gun, Iron Eagle, Delta Force, Rambo)... I was watching the deck-launching scene in Top Gun the other day, noticing the A-6E Intruders flying off the deck... I can imagine the director or the technical advisor hoping nobody would notice that they werent the Tomcats flown by Maverick and Iceman... its pretty lame... Saving Private Ryan, Black Hawk Down, Apocalypse Now, and Gettysburg I think are the most realistic... another one brought to mind is Patton... using American M48 Walker Bulldogs as Panzer Mk IVs... sheesh... Oh, and another one in Top Gun... they were passing off F-5E Tiger IIs as "MiG 28s" - even though there has never even been a MiG 28...

[Arman/XPM]

Sam!
I did not know you where into the hardware aspect of the Military. So am I - :)
-Arman

[Thordic]

AutoMaggot - I know that in Patton at least, they had a good excuse. German tanks simply didn't exist to use in the movie. They HAD to substitute tanks. All the german tanks were either destroyed, scrapped, or sent to museums. Back when that movie was made, digitally recreating the german tanks wasn't exactly feasible.

A lot of times that is what happens in other movies as well. The movie has to make due with whatever hardware is available to the movie industry.

[Russ]

I've never been in any combat, or the military for that matter, but I do a lot of steel plate shooting and bowling pin shooting. 30 feet away (10yds) from a bowling pin, and I've seen guys empty out 2 magazines from their handgun without hitting a single pin (or plate). When the "pressure" is on, it can be difficult to hit your target. I can't even imagine the stress of combat...

That being said, I hate all the BS in Hollywood war movies, but, then again, it's just a movie :)

[Army]

Combat provides such physical and mental overloads, that shooting straight is extremely difficult. To miss at such short ranges is not unusual. It was estimated that it took 110,000 rounds of small arms ammunition for one enemy killed, during the 14 years we were in Vietnam.

To there credit, moviemakers have a limited area in which to work, they don't have unlimited equipment to use or destroy, nor do they have vast armies to lay waste to. The real military helps out many times (such as in We Were Soldiers, most of the soldiers are real Guardsmen or Reservists), but it must be in a narrow confine of regulations which limits what can be done. To make up for these inadequancies, the Director will use many things and people in the same scene, but seen at a new angle to fool you into thinking that there is much more than there really is!

Do you recall the fire base scene, showing the many howitzers firing in support of the US troops? Well, there were really only 3 guns, and 2 of those broke during shooting. Did you recognize me firing the guns? (They made me cover my tattoo!) With permission from the Army and Ft. Hunter-Liggett, we fired real HE rounds so as not have the big puff of white smoke that you see in many movies. Modern cannon do not make a lot of smoke. The explosions with no bodies in the scene? Those were the actual impacts of the rounds we fired.

This movie actually went out of their way to get it right and realistic. After all, when the actual commander that led those troops was there at the filming, you better make him look good or else!

Apocolypse Now was a complete farce, one of the great comedies of all time. They had it wrong from the opening credits. Platoon was a bad joke, Born On The 4th Of July was a kick in the teeth of any Marine. I love John Wayne, but the Green Berets was too immature and too late to turn any minds back to patriotism. Saving Private Ryan was a good beginning in getting it right, but it was laced with "wrong-ness" too. Patton was filmed in cooperation with the Israeli Army, that is why the M48's and Walkers instead of Panzers. Remember, there weren't too many, if any at all, Panzers in operable condition in 1972!

Yes, I agree that the "Rambo" genre was sad to have to put up with all these years, but it beat the heck out of The Breakfast Club!!

[talls]

Originally posted by Russ
I've never been in any combat, or the military for that matter, but I do a lot of steel plate shooting and bowling pin shooting. 30 feet away (10yds) from a bowling pin, and I've seen guys empty out 2 magazines from their handgun without hitting a single pin (or plate). When the "pressure" is on, it can be difficult to hit your target. I can't even imagine the stress of combat...

That being said, I hate all the BS in Hollywood war movies, but, then again, it's just a movie :)

The pressure is a good point; however, these people are trained to deal with this pressure and while it may be hard to comprehend but you can get used to such things. *edit* Just read Army's post and the statistics about how much it took to kill one soldier. I find that quite amazing and it will make me ponder my viewpoint on this subject. Maybe I need to read a little bit more on Vietnam as I am not as informed on that subject as WWI and II. I understood that it took massive amounts of firepower, but that just suprises me. Oh and on a side note about tactics in the movie. When they hit the LZ instead of straight up fighting like they did for a little bit aren't you supposed to get to some shelter depending on the area around you. My dad was an army ranger with the 7th so I should be able to talk to him but he is on a business trip. Should be an interesting conversation. Thanks for all the input from everyone and I would love to hear anymore opinions on the subject.

Oh yeah about the bowling pin thing that is very interesting, but I just have one question. The pressure you are talking about is that during a competition or what...just curious.

[Russ]

About the "pressures" of competitive shooting,

The pressure is trying to shoot down all your targets before your opponent does the same. We shoot "Man vs. Man", so you must shoot better/faster than your opponent to win. IDPA and IPSC are timed events, you against the clock. It's a lot of fun. It's quite invigorating, actually, a rush. I get the same thing from paintball.

Handgun speed shooting (pins, steel, IDPA, IPSC, etc.) is a tough sport to do well. You really don't know 'till you try it. I see a lot of pretty good "shots" fall apart when the buzzer sounds. ;)

Russ

[Army]

Just to clarify tactics. These guys were Cavalry, they don't go some place to set up a battle, they go in guns blazing.

They recieved a report of NVA massing in that zone, and when spotter aircraft confirmed the NVA were in the open and vulnerable, the slicks were in the air armed for bear. That the reports erred in the number of bad guys became obvious when the Battalion became embroiled in a firefight they were not, at first, able to contain. When supply birds began to deliver beans, bullets, and band-aids, the tide of the battle changed.

I can confirm PPC competition is stressful. When you are trying to beat the clock AND score high on the targets, your aim gets a little.......no, a lot more shaky!

[talls]

When supply birds began to deliver beans, bullets, and band-aids, the tide of the battle changed.

That is a great way to put it:)

[Thor the Mighty]

its really hard to have a realistic war movie. for one thing, the good guy has to win, second, there is so much liberal bull that its not even funny, and third, if you hire a star actor, he's going to have to be the person that can shoot a squirl's right nut from 4 miles away with a western style draw. its really hard. saving ryan's privates is the best war movie ever its the most realistic one ive ever seen

[Miscue]

Hot Shots really made me angry... so unrealistic. Come on, you can't cook stuff on people's stomachs... geez.

[Mantis]

You caught me totally off guard, Miscue!!!!

Almost laughed until I cried :)

[Navy Seal]

Originally posted by AutoMaggot
Probably the worst offenders are all of those 1980s "Lets feel good to be American" war movies (you know the ones... Top Gun, Iron Eagle, Delta Force, Rambo)... I was watching the deck-launching scene in Top Gun the other day, noticing the A-6E Intruders flying off the deck... I can imagine the director or the technical advisor hoping nobody would notice that they werent the Tomcats flown by Maverick and Iceman... its pretty lame... Saving Private Ryan, Black Hawk Down, Apocalypse Now, and Gettysburg I think are the most realistic... another one brought to mind is Patton... using American M48 Walker Bulldogs as Panzer Mk IVs... sheesh... Oh, and another one in Top Gun... they were passing off F-5E Tiger IIs as "MiG 28s" - even though there has never even been a MiG 28...

MiGs are in odd numbers, like MiG 15, MiG 29. etc...

[Navy Seal]

Black Hawk Down

The skinnies were on a building, a Ranger was on the wrong side of the Hummer looking around, seeing the beautiful sky complete with tracers flying over his head and shooting at them from like 20 yrds and missing by a mile!!! And a commander walking in the "death zone" to shake hands with the surviving rangers wile getting shou at (and) missed, He had "balls" to do that (if that little part ever did take place). Well, all in all the movie was cool, feel sad for the gunner. And if i ever got shot at by 2 gunners, i would DEFINATELY be pissed! lol.

[Hasty8]

Originally posted by talls


The pressure is a good point; however, these people are trained to deal with this pressure and while it may be hard to comprehend but you can get used to such things.

Talls. You are right up to apoint and then you contniue your decision on a assumption. While soldiers are for the most part taught to shoot they are not taught to shot under the stress of an actual combat situation.

Sure, there are "live fire" drills and such but no one is actually shooting live ammunition directly at them.

And in regards to competition shooting. Two clips at 30 yards and can't hit a bowling pin, huh? No imagine that bolwing pin is juking and jiking with a fully automatic ak-47 and hurling grenades at you. How accurate do you think you could be?

Me? I'ld be quaking in my boots and crying for my momma!

[talls]

And in regards to competition shooting. Two clips at 30 yards and can't hit a bowling pin, huh? No imagine that bolwing pin is juking and jiking with a fully automatic ak-47 and hurling grenades at you. How accurate do you think you could be?

Point taken; I guess I was just looking at it from a civilian standpoint instead of the contrary. I have never really thought about what I would do if I knew someone was shooting at me, but I think that is one of those things that just is an instinct based on your character. What I mean by this is a coward that acts tough in normal situations, when put into the extreme acts like a coward because that is the way they are. I hope what I am saying is making sense. I really love having discussions like the one we are having now that are civilized yet let you voice your opinion, unlike Pbnation. Anymore opinions?

[Navy Seal]

Originally posted by Hasty8


Talls. You are right up to apoint and then you contniue your decision on a assumption. While soldiers are for the most part taught to shoot they are not taught to shot under the stress of an actual combat situation.

Sure, there are "live fire" drills and such but no one is actually shooting live ammunition directly at them.

And in regards to competition shooting. Two clips at 30 yards and can't hit a bowling pin, huh? No imagine that bolwing pin is juking and jiking with a fully automatic ak-47 and hurling grenades at you. How accurate do you think you could be?

Me? I'ld be quaking in my boots and crying for my momma!

He launchen grenades at me, id throw some his way too! Also use an M-79 launcher.

[Hasty8]

Hmm. Intersting that you bring up the concept of cowards and such.

My grandfather was a bombadier during WWII and got to know quite a few characters due to his experiences in Europe.

He has a saying that goes something along these lines:

"A hero is simply a cowrd who moved left when they should of moved right."

Now don't get me wrong. There are people who are hero simply by going to work in the morning. Police and firemen and Emergency Medical works and the like.

Also, parents who just toe the line and teach their kids to be their best I also consider hero's.

I think I understand your point but can you do me a favor? Can you tellme what mine was? I forgot it.

[talls]

Originally posted by Hasty8
"A hero is simply a cowrd who moved left when they should of moved right."

I think I understand your point but can you do me a favor? Can you tellme what mine was? I forgot it.

My grandfather was at Pearl Harbor when it was bombed and he told me something along the lines of that. I understand what your point is perfectly...You are saying that the only true difference between a hero and coward when the *edit* Feces impacts the oscillating wind generator is basically a snap judgement. This ties in with what I was saying because that snap judgement comes from the way that person truly is.

Heres an example...A man diving on a grenade in combat to save his fellow soldiers doesn't have time to think about it. So he has to deep down understand that giving his own life will save 5 or so more. But a different person that is extremly selfish and has little respect for anyone might jump away instead of saving the other lives. I hope that is what you meant because that is sure what I got out of it.

[Hasty8]

Sort of talls but also remember that people can change gradually or in a single moment.

Did you see the Neverending Story? Remeber when Atryu was going to see the Southern Oracle and had to pass the Second Gate.

It was there that people learned the truth about themselves. Decent and giving people discovered that they were truly mean and evail. Heros dicovered that they were truly cowards.

Honestly, we hardly even know ourselves.

[talls]

:D I forgot all about the Neverending Story; it has been years since I have seen that.


Honestly, we hardly even know ourselves

Now that is one statement I am in total agreement with.

[Zumina]

Saving Private Ryan wasn't accurate
In the beginning,we see the invasion of Normandy, and Tom Hanks arrives at the beaches. But the strange thing is that the beaches weren't taken until invasion wave 3. There were 3 waves of invasion waves. The first wave were all but slaughtered...few of the men survived. But because there are NO dead bodies on the beaches when Tom Hanks and his men arrive we assume he is with the first wave. But Tom Hanks and his invasion wave take the beaches...

Jackson clearly fires more than 5 rounds from his 1903 springfield, a gun whose bullet capacity was only five rounds

By the time in the second world war that Private Ryan portrays the German Air Force was mostly destroyed, Therefore most panzers were fitted with anti-aircraft guns on the commanders cupolas to provide some means of defence. These are clearly not present in the film

Miller's Helmet bears the two bars which denote him as a captain, however, this way of identification was abandoned well before the onset of WWII, as it made any American officer "Sniper Bait".

[Thor the Mighty]

well, in the time hanks took that one pillbox thang, there could have been more waves coming, and being slaughtered, and that only shows one part of the beach, not the whole thing

[AutoMaggot]

I dont think Apocalypse now was technically wrong anywhere. Equipment-wise it was dead on... including the steril uniforms of of the MAC-V soldiers. Situationally, all it did was highlight the oddities of the war itself... dont bash such a great movie Army...

[oldsoldier]

Ok, i have served in the army most of my adult life. True, unrealistic movies are just that. But it is often the little things that i pick up on. For instance, "hollywood" magazines. I HATE it in movies when they shoot forever without reloading. Also, the fact that no one aims. That annoys the hell out of me, and whoever has sreved in the military, knows how much they stress the "five points". Also, bad guys all die when shot, good guys get wounded. LOL. nuff said on that.
On to stress and target aquisition;I too have shot plate and bowling pins. True the stress of time, and the guy next to you, his brass bouncing off of you, can wear on you, it isnt the same as people yelling, no ear plugs, smoke, confusion, and all the associated things that go on in the "fog of war". When we go to the range, we do 25 pushups to simulate the adrenaline rush of combat; faster rate of breathing, accelerated heartbeat, etc. Granted, you cant simulate everything, but you do what you can. One last thing;reloading. You see it more now, but I used to hate seeing movies in which no one ever reloaded. It is easy to empty a magazine really fast under stress. Try reloading it under that same stress though. It is a pain. We do a lot of MOUT training here. Two things we practice the most are target aquisition and reload drills. Anyway, I have to get back to work. You all take care, and sorry for venting.

[-§on-]

Ok, also put this into play. I saw We Were Soldiers, I liked the movie a lot. I noticed some things though....In Vietnam they used Ar-15's and They used the early models of the M-16's. The ealier models Jammed really bad from what I have heard and saw on the History Channel. I did not see one guy hasseling with his weapon TRING to get it un-jammed. So what Im wondering is if they just decided to leave just some little deatails out of the whole movie.?

[Army]

§on, (someday I'll figure out that symbol thingy! [seems today is the day!]), the rifle worked as designed in the early years of issue. In early 1967, Winchester changed the powder type from a canister, to a ball powder. This resulted in excess carbon build-up on the tight tolerance parts, causing the now infamous jams. By late '67 all the erroneous powder and ammo had been destroyed, and the rifle redesigned into the M16-A1 to answer any future problems of fouling.

This battle occured in april of 1965, the rifle was first fielded by the Army in 1964, so yes, everything is correct.

[Thor the Mighty]

the worst are the arnold movies where he'll be sitting in the open with 45 rounds left and kill thousands of bad guys and not even get hit by their snipers

[-§on-]

To Make the Cool § hold alt and type 0167....;)

[Thor the Mighty]

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[Grey_Goose]

Talls,

No offense but your accuracy comments bugged me too. Have you ever been out to a firing range?

Let's put a 60lb rucksack on you, a kevlar, add a bunch of noise, possible concussive explosions, and we haven't even talked about the shooter and shootee moving around.

I'm ex-Cav, a Scout as a matter of fact, and the movies get a lot wrong, but they get a lot right, too. One movie I'm surprised no one has mentioned was Courage Under Fire. I'm not embarrassed to say that movie made me cry.

As far as the ones that get it mostly wrong, well, they'll stop makin' 'em when you stop buying tickets. Either that, or when someone shoots Tony Scott.

Anywho, that's my .02USD.

[Thor the Mighty]

yeah i think we should give credit to the movie industry for making all of those "horrible war movies" possible. it gives the most accurate discription possible