Baltimore PB Ban

[mykroft]

From APG Newsletter:

From: [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 09, 2002 07:12:16 PM US/Eastern
To: [email protected]
Subject: ALERT: BALTIMORE. BILL to Ban Possession-Sales-Discharge of Paintball Guns

ALERT: BALTIMORE.

BILL to Ban Possession-Sales-Discharge of Paintball Guns

HEARING: MONDAY, MARCH 11. 5 p.m.

Baltimore's City Council is considering an ordinance that would make it illegal to "discharge, possess, sell, buy, give away, or otherwise transfer any paintball gun in Baltimore City."

Violation of this would be a misdemeanor and, on conviction, the sentence could be a fine up to $500, and/or imprisonment for up to 60 days, for each offense.

This would apply to individuals, corporations, partnerships and all other entities (see below).

The item is on the City Council's draft Agenda for MONDAY, MARCH 11.

CALL THE CITY COUNCIL FOR FURTHER INFORMATION.

Also affected, though differently, would be gas- or air-pellet guns (see below).


CITY OF BALTIMORE WEB SITE: http://www.baltimorecitycouncil.com/la.htm.

The City Council publishes its agenda three business days in advance of a Council meeting, and posts that agenda to this website.

The item on the Agenda is under "bills introduced". This is a summary. The full draft text is below. The summary says:

02-0713 Weapons - Paintball Guns

Sponsors: Holton.

ORDINANCE - FOR the purpose of prohibiting the possession, sale or transfer, or discharge of paintball guns and similar devices; defining certain terms; imposing certain penalties; correcting, clarifying, and conforming certain related provisions governing gas- and air-pellet devices; and generally relating to guns and other devices that discharge pellets and other objects. - PUBLIC SAFETY SUBCOMMITTEE (020500)

As of March 7, 2002, this is what it says, according to a fax from the City Council. Call the City Council to get a copy fax'd directly to you. Anything in brackets [] is current wording that would be replaced.

Section 1. Be It Ordained by the Mayor and City Council of Baltimore, That the Laws of Baltimore City read as follows:

Baltimore City Code

Article 19. Police Ordinances

Subtitle 59. Weapons


Section 59-26. Gas- or air-pellet guns.

(A) Definitions.

(1)

In this section, the following terms have the meanings indicated.

(2) "Gas- or Air-Pellet gun".

"Gas- or Air-Pellet gun" means any gun or other device, by whatever name or description known, that discharges a pellet or other object by force of gas or air cylinder or cartridge.

(3) "Person".

"Person" means any individual, partnership, firm, association, corporation, limited liability company, or any entity of any kind.

(B) [(a)]: Giving, etc., to minor prohibited.

[It shall be unlawful for any persons, firm or corporation to] No Person may sell, give away, [lend, rent,] or otherwise transfer a Gas- or Air-Pellet gun to, or permit the use of a Gas- or Air-pellet gun by, any individual whom [any such] that person [, firm, or corporation] knows or has reasonable cause to believe [to be] a minor [, under the age of 21 years, any gun or other device, by whatever name or description known, which discharges a pellet or other object by force of gas or air cylinder or cartridge].


(C) [(b)]: Discharge or use [prohibited].

[It shall be unlawful for any] No person [to] may discharge or use any [gun or other device, by whatever name or description known, which discharges a pellet or other object by force of a gas or air cartridge or cylinder,] gas- or air-pellet gun unless the [said] gun [shall be] is kept within his or her own domicile or [shall be] is used by him exclusively for the purpose of teaching the use and care of [weapons or] firearms at [an] a properly constructed indoor or outdoor range [which shall be under the supervision, guidance, and instruction of an adult].

[(c) Same.

It shall be unlawful for any person to discharge any such gun or device from or across any street, sidewalk, alley, or public road within the limits of the City of Baltimore except on a properly constructed target range or except on private grounds or residence under circumstances where the said gun or device can be fired, discharged, or operated in such a manner as not to endanger persons or property and also in such a manner as to prevent the projectile from traversing any grounds or space outside the limits of such grounds or residence.]

(d) Penalties.

Any [violation of the provisions] person who violates any provision of this section [shall be deemed to be] is guilty of a misdemeanor and, on conviction, is subject [upon conviction] to a fine of not more than $500 or to imprisonment for not [longer] more than 60 days or to both fine and imprisonment [, in the discretion of the Court] for each offense.




Section 59-26.1. Paintball Guns

(A) Definitions

(1) In General

In this section, the following terms have the meanings indicated.

(2) "Paintball Gun".

"Paintball Gun" means any gun or other device, including a gas- or air-pellet gun as defined in Section 59-26 of this subtitle, that is used or designed or intended to be used to discharge a paintball or other object designed or intended to mark a target with pigmentation.

(3) "Person".

"Person" means any individual, partnership, firm, association, corporation, limited liability company, or any entity of any kind.

(B) Discharge, Possession, Etc., Prohibited.

No person may discharge, possess, sell, buy, give away, or otherwise transfer any paintball gun in Baltimore City.

(C) Penalties.

Any person who violates any provision of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and, on conviction, is subject to a fine or not more than $500 or to imprisonment for not more than 60 days or to both fine and imprisonment for each offense.

Section 2. And Be it Further Ordained, That the catchlines contained in this Ordinance are not law and may not be considered to have been enacted as a part of this or any prior Ordinance.

Section 3. And Be It Further Ordained, That this Ordinance takes effect on the 30th day after the date it is enacted.


The City Council meeting of Monday, March 11, begins at 5 p.m. at City Hall.

The web site indicates: Full texts of City Council bills are not available online as of yet. If you require the full text of a bill, please call the Council's Executive Secretary during business hours at (410) 396-1697. Requests will be filled via facsimile or U.S. Mail as appropriate.

CONTACTS

IF YOU WISH TO CONTACT ANY CITY OFFICIAL, IT IS ABSOLUTELY VITAL THAT YOUR CONTACT BE VERY POLITE.

STATING YOUR OPINION IS CERTAINLY APPROPRIATE, BUT DOING SO IN A WAY THAT IS CONSIDERED RUDE WILL HURT PAINTBALL'S CAUSE, NOT HELP IT.


City of Baltimore
City Council
City Hall, Room 408
100 North Holliday Street
Baltimore, Maryland 21202
City Switchboard (all departments) 410-396-3100


City Council Members:

Sheila Dixon, President of the Council

Stephanie Rawlings Blake, Vice President

District One: Nicholas C. D'Adamo, Jr., John L. Cain, Lois A. Garey

District Two: Paula Johnson Branch, Bernard C. "Jack" Young, Pamela V. Carter

District Three: Robert W. Curran, Kenneth N. Harris, Sr., Lisa Joi Stancil

District Four: Agnes Welch, Keiffer J. Mitchell, Jr., Catherine E. Pugh

District Five: Rochelle "Rikki" Spector, Helen L. Holton, Stephanie Rawlings Blake

District Six: Melvin L. Stukes, Kwame Abayomi, Edward L. Reisinger

EMAIL ADDRESSES:


Baltimore City Council e-mail addresses:

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]



TELEPHONE NUMBERS:

President of City Council 410-396-4804

1st District 410-396-4806

2nd District 410-396-4809

3rd District 410-396-4814

4th District 410-396-4817

5th District 410-396-4820

6th District 410-396-4823

Council Executive Secretary 410-396-4800

Mayor's Office 410-396-4892



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[Hemlock86]

Thats sooooo weak.......

[MikeCouves]

That sucks!! OMG what a stupid city!! how dumb could you be!!!

[Bluntman]

If they just bring it down to discharge then it would be alright, cause you don't need to use a paintball gun in a city.

[Riotz]

Even discharge would be bad. That would mean no indoor fields in the city ever.

My aunt may have some political friends in Baltimore, shes a big shot down there. I'll send her this link.

One of those bills says "to minors" though. Its a little confusing...

This is THordic posting from Riotz house, by the way :)

[nutz]

omg that is not cool

[headcase]

Originally posted by Riotz
Even discharge would be bad. That would mean no indoor fields in the city ever.

My aunt may have some political friends in Baltimore, shes a big shot down there. I'll send her this link.

One of those bills says "to minors" though. Its a little confusing...

This is THordic posting from Riotz house, by the way :)

In a nut shell it say the following.

It is OK to own a bb/pellet gun as long as it is only used on properly constructed private ranges. And minors are not allowed to own them.

Paintball markers are not allowed at all. Under this bill NO ONE would be allowed to own a paintball marker, never mind shoot it.

[liigod]

thats why i live in california

dream of califonication....

[HoppysMag]

If they ever tried this in MA i would fight them tooth and nail.....till the bitter end. Thats it they need to make a law AGAINST bannin paintball guns.. Im SICK of this.. Uninformed people making uninformed decisions.

[Stinger]

OK fellas we have to fight this, please write to the council members expressing your opinion on the matter. It would be extremely harmful to the sport to have this happen.

[bratch]

In case anyone was too lazy to read the whole email please remember to keep you opinions civil. It will look very bad on us if everone is telling them how stupid they are to ban paintball guns. Try to find facts such as injuries per person or annual revenue from paintball to add into your comments. This will show the council we are educated and the positive sides of the sport.

[Aranarth]

I suggest we rally efforts to fill their emails with legitimate points. Those who are local or close, I would suggest calling and attempting to speak to the representatives in person. If you can, see what you can do about attending the meeting itself. Have the local business owners contact the council, and not just paintball distributers, but sports shop owners, the people you buy your clothes from to paintball in, the people who fill your shop owners' fill stations, the realtors who lease the land to the paintball field owner, the insurance agencies that insure paintball parks. Have them all contact the city council. The business owners are the key. Money talks.
My email to council members:

Council members of Baltimore:
I am a paintball player. Currently I reside in Washington, though I maintain my status of voting resident in Arizona. I have played paintball all over the United States. Recently it was brought to my attention that you are considering a bill to ban paintball in your city. This bill distrubs me greatly.
Paintball is a sport. It has been shown that it is one of the safest sports that people can engage in today, safer than tennis and even golf. Paintball can be played by all ages of people. I have seen children six years old playing, and I have seen grown men nearing fifty years old playing. Men and women both play, and they play together on equal terms. Paintball encourages teamwork, builds responsibility, and promotes exercise. Its benefits are numerous, and I have not listed them all by far. It seems that all I ever hear about is the negatives, though. A majority of the time, these negatives are based on misunderstanding, and lack of knowledge. Occassionally, they are based on fact, and improper usage of the equipment that is part of a the sport of paintball.
Many people who have not participated in a game of paintball have litter understanding regarding it. They view it as some sort of war game, most of the time. This view is incorrect. Paintball is an elaborate form of tag, but tag where instead of one person being 'it', it is one team versus the other. Rules and safety equipment ensure that nobody is injured, both the people playing and the people observing. These rules are enforced by both the field officials, and the players themselves. The level of enforcement is so strict that paintball has become known to have that level of safety greater than that of so many other sports.
Yet, this lack of experience and understanding is very prevelant in the community today. It seems that the topic I hear more and more often is that of regulating and banning paintball, and every time I hear it it is spoken from the point of someone who has little understanding of what paintball is. This lack of understanding, by people who are in the position to create and enforce laws, can cause the sport of paintball, the people who play, and many others, to suffer. This suffering would would encompass those able to compete in their sport. It would be all of the sports stores and paintball stores in the baltimore city limits. This would also affect those companies that own the equipment used to fill nitrogen tanks and co2 tanks, and to hydrotest the tanks that the paintball player uses. It would be the employees of these companies, and their families. Banning paintball guns would mean that people would have to get rid of thousands of dollars, in some cases, of gear. And they would not be able to sell this in their area. Most people who possess these items would have almost no means of getting rid of this gear. Is the city council going to buy every single gun? Are they going to provide a means of getting rid of these? What will they do when they realize that the people who follow their regulations are the ones that use paintballs correctly, and the people who don't follow their regulations are those that will keep their now outlawed 'weapons' and use them for the same purposes that gave paintball a bad repuation in the first place. What will they do about the people that buy over the internet and have paintball equipment shipped to them, thus bypassing their law enforced shutdown of local business? Are the shipping authorities to screen every package that crosses the boundary of the city limits? Your law will just increase the problems you seem to be having with misuse of paintball equipment. You will eliminate your ally in policing their use: you will eliminate the paintball player. You will be left with two types of people: those that use paintball markers wrongly for illegal means, and those that decide to keep their equipment so they can take it to places where they can use it legally. The first type are the very small minority that you already have a problem with. The second type will be a small fraction of what is right now the majority of a very large group. This second group will most likely become dis-illusioned with helping to police the use of paintball. Evidently, the help they already offer is spurned. Evidently, you do not care for them, so why should they care to help you? Do not make the mistake of losing the support and help you already have.
Paintball markers can be used wrongly, as can baseball bats, and hockey pucks. The solution is not to remove the arm to treat the infected fingernail. The solution is to sterilize the fingernail. Deal with people that abuse the equipment. The paintball community already has a harsh view of those that use their equipment in ways it should not be used. In other words, YOU already have our enthusiastic support in your efforts to deal with any problem that stems from misuse of our sport. Why not attempt to use this support you have, instead of turning it against you?
It is my sincere hope that you listen to the content of my words, and that you understand my position in this matter. Though I am not a voter in your district, or even your state, and your laws would not affect me, they would affect my fellow paintballers. Paintball is a team sport, and a community of teammates besides. I can go to any part of the country, and find people who are friendly, and welcoming. I ask that you do not destroy the good of paintball in your city, for the sake of attempting to remove the evil.

Respectfully,
Daniel McCutchan
[email protected]

[HoppysMag]

"If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns" that meaning the people who give reason to outlaw something are doing somthing illegal to begin with. What makes you think that a piece of paper that says "you cant have those" will make them stop?

My father says that all the time. its the same as "Locks only keep honest people honest"... if you are willin to give enough time money and resources, anything can be done

[Top Secret]

Originally posted by liigod
thats why i live in california

dream of califonication....

Dude, you realize you live in the liberal haven of America? You're next.

Gun control = paintball control. You allow gun control to pass, you are opening the door for anti-paintball legisation to pass. Plain and simple. The "government" of Assachusetts has deemed that "citizens" cannot protect themselves with firearms. The Citizen of the Year is not allowed to carry a gun because of a misdemeanor that he commited in his youth. Real common sense in these legislator's heads, no? If you are writing your legislators to not ban paintball, it's already too late. Get out of there. Move to one of the few remaining "free states" that still recognizes our Constitution.

[rifleman]

I'm going to send a copy of this to the NRA and see what they think.




Adam

[HoppysMag]

Rifleman .....does it fall under the second amendment?

[ShinyGuy]

Getting the NRA involved will hurt more than help. First the NRA has no interest in paintball. Paintball markers will not help defend us from criminals/foreign invaders/government tyrany (not that the NRA is doing anything about current governmant tyrany). Paintball markers are not useful weapons and thus not valuable to the NRA.

Secondly, having the NRA support paintball would only reinforce the idea that paintball markers are guns. The NRA's support could help keep paintball markers legal but not keep the sport legal. The NRA wants us to be able to own guns but they do not encourage us to use them on each other.

The people trying to ban paintball are not the liberals as a group. They are a small minority of grossly missinformed people. If the NRA were to take up the cause of paintball the majority of the pro-gun lobby would not flock to our aid but we would loose anyt support we have now in the liberal quarter.

[raehl]

We don't want the NRA involved. Although I didn't do a headcount, since Baltimore is a city and urban, most people on the city council are likely to be democratic. The NRA showing up will just hurt the cause.

I've started a new non-profit organization to deal with things like this. It is meant o grow into a consumers group, similar to the Air Travelers Association, or one of the numerous sporting associations that also influence legislation. (Snow mobilers have them, off roaders have them, we should have one too.) It's a little rushed since I hadn't planned on doing it until this summer, but with this law it seemed prudent to get tbe ball rolling earlier. Please swing by www.paintball-players.org. I'll keep everyone up to date on this (and other pending legislation) there, and it should allow everyone who is interested to coordinate in a central location instead of on 20 different web forums.

www.paintball-players.org

Thanks,
Chris

[thei3ug]

NRA isn't just about guns, folks. And saying "don't involve the NRA is refusing a LOT of lobby power.

That being said... unenforceable.

[Top Secret]

Originally posted by thei3ug
NRA isn't just about guns, folks. And saying "don't involve the NRA is refusing a LOT of lobby power.

That being said... unenforceable.

Ditto. The "gun-lobby" is growing in power nowadays. If you refuse their support, who are you going to get it from other than the small amount of pro-paintball groups? HCI? I'm sure they would be glad to support a game where we run around shooting each other with GUNS.

Nothing stops anti-paintball legislation faster than when there is a rifle backing up paintball. :cool: Paintballers-7 million, Gun owners-70 million. You do the math.

MOLON LABE!

www.gunsnet.net

[raehl]

I wish you had been to some of the hearings on paintball related laws recently. It is *NOT* a gun issue. These laws arn't being written by people who think of paintball markers as guns. These laws are being written from a safety issue - the legislators want to make sure paintball markers arn't used inappropriately, and sometimes they go overboard because they don't have the information necessary to draft legislation that's appropriate.

Trying to get a safety law changed by arguing that people have a right to bear arms won't work because you're just simply not adressing the issues at hand.

Paintball markers are SPORTING GOOD EQUIPMENT. Calling in the NRA to fight paintball legislation makes about as much sense as calling them in for ATV or snow mobiling legislation.

It is VERY EASY to approach legislators and say "Yes, we understand that you want to make sure paintball equipment is used responsibly. How about you write your legislation this way to accomplish that without unduely burdening paintball participants?" And that works. (It worked very well in WI.)

You need to understand that even if the NRA were to become involved, they'd involve us as a part of their greater legislative agenda. Paintball may not necessarily always benefit as part of another organization's agenda. We need to approach paintball legislation as paintball consumers, not gun owners, because the legislation is about paintball, not guns.

- Chris

[DJSOLID]

I've never heard it said or implied that the National Rifle Association does not approve of paintball. I'm a life member and frequently read their publications. I don't believe that they have a problem with it - they just aren't focusing on it because they've got to remain dedicated to firearms safety and education - that's enough of a challenge. However, I believe that paintball players need to hire lobbyists and build membership groups similar to the way the NRA does. Wouldn't you pay forty or fifty dollars a year to see that your freedoms aren't taken away by liberal knit-wits? Paintball is going to need some advocacy groups and soon if it is going to survive for the long haul. The ball needs to get rolling by manufacturers and needs to be supported financially by educating players of this need. Right now paintball manufacturers are trying so desperately to gain market share in this industry, they have no vision for the future of the sport other than what the next latest and greatest marker is gonna be.

[raehl]

Manufacturers:

Paintball Product Manufacturers Association (PPMA)
www.paintballassociation.org

Players/Consumers:

American Paintball Players Association (APPA)
www.paintball-players.org


The second one is my effort - so many people saying we needed on figurred it was about time someone got off their butt and did it.

- Chris

[Thordic]

The NRA would not support paintball. I had brought this up on a previous occasion for a similar issue.

The fact came up that the NRA will have nothing to do with paintball because it has to do with aiming and discharging a "weapon" at a person.

So don't bother with the NRA.

[than205]

Guys,
We need to read what reahl is writing. I have to agree with that and other peoples postings here.
The NRA is trying to protect a constitutional principal/right.
We however are trying to preserve our option/ability to play a sport.
While we or anyone else can find rather distant parallels, that is all they are, minor simularities.
The NRA's fights and concerns will be eternal. Where as our struggles are due to education of players and civic leaders and proper use by consumers.
Everyone, I can not stress this enough. If you see or even hear of someone doing stupid things with markers do something to stop it. These are the people who are in the end ruining the future of paintball. Allways promote responsability with the newbies and players you meet. Lots of things seem harmless at the time.
What really needs to be done is to understand what the concerns are of the citizenry (or person) that started the legislation in Baltimore. Then work needs to be done to address those concerns to ultimately avoid any legislation. Or at the very least have reasonable legislation.

I choose to use the term marker. Just like I choose to use a baseball bat to play baseball. They are the tools of a sport. While both can be used to protect my home, I would choose neither to protect my country.
Paintball is a sport.

[frgood]

I beg to differ regarding the NRA. I suppose it is a regional variances within the organization. It so happens about two years ago. In Shelton CT. The state office of the NRA was very effective in stopping a local ordinance from being established. As I recall, their arguement had really nothing to do with the popularity of the sport or anything along the sport itself. This was a purely legal debate. The ordinances do fall into their area as broad legislation affects BB guns and any air powered gun.
I would recommend finding someone from the state office to help. I'll do a deja news search to finf the discussion. The owners of the local PB store in Shelton CT put a strong effort. Also, the appearance of local news (even a single small newspaper) is effective. As many locals --parents, vendors and kids should show up at the hearings. Find out the hearing date. These were all very effective measures.

[frgood]

Here's the link to the thread

I don't know if the dejan news - shelton pb Ban thread (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=shelton+group:rec.sport.paintball&hl=en&selm=39779643.A63F08D4%40yahoo.com&rnum=1)

I hope the link show up correctly.
Several stores got involved.
-Paintball Unlimited
273 Canal ST
Shelton, CT 06484
Phone: 203-922-8011
email: [email protected]
website: www.paintballunlimied.com

-Scott Potter
President, Eastern Paintball Supplies
223 East Main Street
Branford, CT 06405
[email protected]
203-488-5721
203-488-5793 (fax)

I did not check the contacts to see if they are still active. But give it a try.

I'd contact them to see what measures may be effective. This is serious and sets a bad precedent.

[rifleman]

I hope you all understand that paintball would have NEVER of taken off if it weren't for the NRA--I'm not saying that the NRA had anything directly related to do with it, but with firearms banned (which definatly would happen if it weren't for the NRA) how far do you think a game where you simulated "killing" people with guns would have gone?



www.nra.org - Join today and protect your rights.






Adam

[Hasty8]

Rifleman - regardless of the the existence of the NRA or not there has never been any legislation to ban gun ownership in America. Ever. And to say that it is due to the existence of the NRA is a base assumption at best. I agree with you that the NRA is an important lobby group for the gun community but I think that paintball, in its current infancy, wuold not benefit from the attention of such a "sin industry" group. It would definately cast a negative light upon us.

As for this bill there is one bit of information that is very interesting. It doesn't say that paintball is banned just the bill was introduced.

Actually, I just got off the phone with the City Council Secretary ( a VERY nice and friendly woman) who informed me of the bills current status.

The bill was merely announced last night and was assigned to a committee for review. The next step is to announce a hearing on the topic, the date of which should be published on their site later today.

For some reason when I clicked on the Legislative Activity (la.htm) link it didn't work for me but just entering the URL up to the .com worked fine.

I would recommend that people do not contact the council members lambasting them for banning paintball as it is not currently banned and will only make us look like a bunch of dorks.

Since Balitimore is relatively close to me I'm going to watch this closely and will try to get out there for any hearings that I can to make sure that my voice is heard in this matter.

I would also like to formally extend an invitation to Tom to join us if he so chooses. I'll be contacting other industry heads during the remainder of this week to see if we can also get their voices involved.

Third, I am about to send a letter to the writer of that article, letting him know that his was a severe case of terrible reporting. I just think that they could of gone a bit farther to let people know that this is just legislation being introduced and not yet passed into law.

My final next step is to contact just the originators of this bill and open a dialogue with them as to their impetus for this bill and to see if there is not some way around the total ban of these items.

Wish me luck.

[hardr0ck68]

i dont care if they ban paintball everywhere, i will never stop playing. i wont give up my gear, and as long as i can find paint somewhere (dont care if i have to drive to Canada) then im gonna keep goin. useless goverment, its become to big, to cluttered, and to useless for the people....this country needs a good old revolution (hope when it happens i will be young enough to help storm the white house...) :)

[than205]

I would personally prefer that if anything be done that something simular to what PA has.

[shartley]

i dont care if they ban paintball everywhere, i will never stop playing. i wont give up my gear, and as long as i can find paint somewhere (dont care if i have to drive to Canada) then im gonna keep goin. useless goverment, its become to big, to cluttered, and to useless for the people....this country needs a good old revolution (hope when it happens i will be younge enough to help storm the white house myself...)
I wonder if anyone knows how serious this type of statement is...... :rolleyes:

I will not even go into what I think about things like that. Most of you who know me, know exactly what I am thinking anyway.

[Hasty8]

I know what you mean shartley but I think hardrock has a point. As the saying goes; "A little revolution everynow and then is a good thing."

Of course I do not mean revolution in the terms of 1770 revolution. As always the Revolutionary war was a last resort by the colonies. They tried at first to peacably (?) talk with the European governments but they would not ahve it and so a need for war arose.

Enough about the history lesson though. Hardrock has a point. For the most part, the American government system is just a useless huge machine. It rarely accomplishes anything other than good for special interest groups or at elaast those groups with enough money to ensure that their voice is heard.

However, with that inmind I must say that I do not blame the government for becoming a mindless machine that existsmeremly for its own existence. No, I blame us. That's right. The citizens.

For every single person on these boards who reads this thread and says "That's awful. Poor Baltimore. Wish there was something I could do but I don't live there so it's not my problem." and they do nothing I will hold those people responsible for this law being passed.

It's up to us to change the system if we don't like it and that is why, for the first time, I am done saying "Aw, shucks. That's to bad. Wish I could do something." and I'm getting off my keister and doign something. If you do not try to evict change then you lose your right to complain and I enjoy complaining far to much to simply sit by and do nothing.

[raehl]

While the councilwoman responsible for this law apparently knows a decent amount about paintball, the law still demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how paintball is played and who plays it.

As it stands, there's already a college paintball club *IN* Baltimore, at John's Hopkins University. The JHU ROTC program (which also incorporated students from at least 4 other area colleges, including others within the city) also takes their cadets on paintballl outings. These are two respectable groups WITHIN Baltimore who would be turned into criminals by this law.

Add on top of that anyone making a delivery at Wal-Mart or Dick's Sporting goods who also has paintball equipment for another destination, any postal or carrier company employee handling or transporting packages which contain paintball markers through the city, anyone going through the city to get to the airport to fly to a tournament, etc, etc, an you've impacted thousands of people for... what? What does this law accomplish exactly?

What we have to do if figure out why these councilmen think banning sporting goods equipment is acceptable, and demonstrate why it isn't. I looked at the Baltimore Sun and found at least two instances of people using baseball bats to murder and vandalise just in the past two weeks of article available. If that's justification for banning sporting goods equipment, baseball bats need to go WAAAAY before paintball markers.

I think people in the city council are starting to realize the number of people they're impacting here - partly because when I asked for the most recent copies of the bills (there are TWO of them that would ban paintball equipment, 02-0703 and 02-0713) she said "Let me guess, the airgun and paintball gun ones?". It's going to come down to the hearing - we need to put as many bodies of *LOCAL* people in that meeting as possible to let the city council know who they're impacting - and also know that while they won't win any votes with this law, they sure will lose quite a few. That means store owners, field owners, players, RELATIVES of players. If you play in Montana but your mom lives in baltimore, get your mom to that hearing to talk about all the fun her son has playing paintball.

I'll be getting the college clubs there.

Also, please keep checking up on www.paintball-players.org. The people talking here need to coordinate with those talking on r.s.p. with those on paintball city with those on pbnation with those on Warpig etc. I'll keep the information there up to date within 24 hours as well.

I hope to have a script set up by the end of this weekend to allow everyone to sign up with their emails and phone numbers so we can make sure everyone gets there.

Thanks,
Chris

[BgGrizzly]

As far as the NRA is conserned I think they could and would be a very good supporter of paintball. I personally am a member of the NRA and I know of several other NRA members that play paintball. If the NRA recieved enough letters from members that were concerned about the campaigns against paintball I think they would be very helpful in protecting paintball.

[hardr0ck68]

in my defense, i am a history major and i do understand what happens in revolutions, espacally ones that would split a nation...ushally lots of violence aginst people who dont deserve it. However i have 2 points

1. This nation has its damn hands in the affairs of to many other nations, our goverment has to many offices, councals, orginizations, and people in it...all trin to prove they are useful to the machine...so to prove there use they create bills that ban paintball, or ban smoking in public places...America the "land of the free" has more restrictions than afganistan (boy will that cause a flame)

2. this goverment is afraid to tackle any issues that mean something....national health care is to leftist....doing away with income tax (dose anyone know that is was imposed on the american people as a TEMPOARY measure to raise funds for reconstruction?) is to right; well they would be left or right if the conservitaves and liberals actually belived in change these days...

i know my spelling blows, im a history major not english so please understand, also i am still learning i dont know everyhing im just young and bitter at a machine that dosnet work for me, my parrents, and probably wont work for my childern...as my family makes the slide from upper middle class to middle and i have a feeling no matter what my income or college edu. my childern will be lower/poor....

[raehl]

For some reason all the NRA members seem to think the NRA is going to somehow step in and miracles are going to happen. Why? What is the NRA going to do?

If the Baltimore were trying to ban water balloon launchers, would you call the NRA? Of course not. If they were banning lawn darts, would you call the NRA? No. Baseball bats? No. The concerns this legislation is trying (not quite effectively) to adress have NOTHING to do with gun issues.

While it's great you all believe in the lobbying power of oyur organization, it has nothing to du with the issue at hand.

It is dangerous to get the NRA involved because the people we are dealing with don't like the NRA to begin with. Even if people were trying to get paintball banned because they pair it with guns, the LAST thing you want to do is bring in the gun lobby! It's also dangerous because you don't want to put yourself in the position where you are reliant on someone else for your welfare because the second your interests arn't their interested you're screwed.

Paintball needs its own lobbying organization with its own funding and its own goals and representation. Snow mobilers have them, off roaders have them, hunters have them, fishermen have them, pretty much any sport which is heavily impacted by legislation (like all those sports are) have lobbying groups to air their grievances and protect their interests.


When we went to the hearing in Wisconsin, we had to wait over two hours while they discussed the first issue: How soon a new elk herd would be open for hunting and how many licenses would be issued and who would get them. Small herd, licenses starting out at less than 10. There were HUNTING associations there to make sure that the interests of hunters were preserved. Do you know who was NOT there? The NRA. Why? Because even though these elk were going to be shot with guns, whether or not people got to shoot elk with guns had nothing to do with the NRA, and if the NRA had showed up, the most they would have gotten is a chuckle.

It's the same here - except there arn't even any guns involved.

Is the NRA a powerful lobbying organization? Sure. Does this have anything to do with them? No. IF you're going to make that kind of argument, you could make a MUCH stronger argument for getting the ACLU or some other civil liberties group involved - the kind of groups who routinely act in NUMEROUS ways to fight government intrusion on private lives. (not saying we should rely on them either, just saying that paintball isn't any more of an NRA/republican thing than it is an ACLU/democrat thing. It's PAINTBALL.)

If you want to have an affect on this legislation, you need to be able to demonstrate that the number of people adversely affected by the law and the way they are affected far outweighs any consideration for maybe perhaps preventing illegal activities in the future. (I.e., we need to show that permitting possession of paintball equipment has many more benefits than restricting it. A fairly easy case to make.) "We have the NRA, now surrender!" isn't going to work.

- Chris

[raehl]

www.paintball-players.org

- Chris

[giblit]

do we know if its passed yet. this is pissing me off :mad: i dont live in baltimore but it still makes me mad becasue they have no resoning to do this

[Hasty8]

First off giblit, calm down or you'll blow a gasket.

No, this legislation has not passed. IT was meremly introduced last Monday. It will now be reviewed by the committee assigned to it and they will be holding a public meeting within the next 30 days.

As for them not having a right to do this they most certainly do have a right to ban these types of items. I think we can all agree where that paintball markers are inno way covered by the Second Ammendment so that is a non issue.

Secondly, Ms. Horton, one of the originators of the bill proposed this legislation after hearing about several paintball vandalism incidents across the country. While this is a somewhat typical and knee-jerk reaction that we see from most politicians it is understandable.

Baltimore, or any municipality, can be held to very large, nay gargantuan, civil penalties if one of their citizens, or a visitor to their fine city, should get injured or worse from the negligent use of these paintball markers.

They are just protecting themselves and they have a right to do so.

Conversely, we have a right, afforded us by the Constitution, to oppose this legislation in its current language and ensure that while it becomes illegal to use one of these items in any area other than a properly designated paintball area it should not be illegal to own one. Also, we need to make sure that it is not illegal to fire such a device on ones own property because I often use my back yard as a testing area when I have worked on my marker. Howeverm that being said we will also have to work with the governing body to ensure that language is included in the new legislation that allows for a stiff fine and possibly even coniscation of the marker if use in the home setting causes serious and grevious property damage or personal injury of a neighbor.

We have to be careful with the things we say because we think how we speak. I understand that you are upset. I am too but these people are not acting out of a malicious nature. They are merely trying to protect the citizens that elected them to office. The fact that they may be supoprting the legislation out of ignrance of the facts puts a responsibility upon us to show them the truth and to work to a mutually agreeable decision.

[Mango]

They should enforce the laws already in place. Banning them is just going too far. :mad:

[Hasty8]

That's the thing Mango. As of right now there is no real legislation inplace regarding the use and ownership of paintball guns.

This is just a classic example of someone with out enough information making an uninformed decision. Luckily we live in a place that allows us to poenly (and politely) inform out elected officials as to the true circumstances of the issue.

I have absoultely no doubt whatsoever that this is not the end of paintball in Baltimore. I firmly believe that when we rationally and maturely show paintball for the team building sport that it is the BCC will enact the proper laws which will ban illegal use of these markers on city property except when in the confines of a properly designated paintball facility.

Take note everyone. This is the best legal system in the world at work here folks.

[GallagherAtWar]

where is Baltimore?

and what is the population of it?

[raehl]

We're not arguing that you should be able to shoot them in the city (at least not outside of a field were one to be created), but that doesn't mean you should get 60 days in jail for owning one - or are you saying no one in Baltimore should be allowed to own their own paintball equipment? That's ridiculous.

- Chris

[raehl]

If someone lives in baltimore, but plays at a field near balitmore, they shouldn't be allowed to own a paintball marker? Someone who drives through baltimore to play at a field should be arrested and put in jail for 60 days? That's what this law does.

- Chris

[magworks]

This is stupid, you know I can hurt someone a lot more with a baseball bat, wonder if they want to ban that sport too. Well, maybe I'm being a little irrational but come on.

[Jordan-APL]

THis is the most stupid thing i have ever read,it was probly some moron teenagers trying to imitate a drive-by that pushed this issue over the top.:mad:

[Hasty8]

I'm seeing a lot of posts on this and other message boards that baisclly say things like "what's the difference if there is no playing field in the city." "or " So what if they do it there."

Seeing posts like these reminds me of the words of the German theologian, Martin Niemoller.

"In Germany, the Nazis came for the Communists, but I wasn't a Communist, so I didn't speak up.
Then they came for the Jews, but I wasn't a Jew, so I didn't speak up.
Then they came for the Labor Unionists, but I wasn't a Labor Unionist, so I didn't speak up.
Then they came for the Catholics, but I was a Protestant, so I didn't speak up.
Then they came for me...By that time there was no one to speak up for me."

If we allow a total ban of ownership in one city then it is quite logical to assume, without slipping to far into MacArthurism, that it may happen else where until we are not able to own or play.

We must understand that a city or a state or a federal government has the right and the duty to protect it's citizens but this must be done responsibly.

[trevy38]

Involving the NRA will not help paintball. First of all, the last thing a paintball player wants to do is to put paintball (a sport) into the category of guns. We're not fooling anybody by calling them markers, but if the NRA supports paintball, Democrats (some hating the NRA anyway) will throw out an "I told you so" to the American public about paintball markers being guns. Second, the NRA is supporting an idea that was established years ago. The NRA is trying to defend our constitutional right and safety. They have enough time on their hands, and I would much rather keep my second amendment to protect myself than play paintball.

What we need is a new organization. Something designed specifically for the defense of paintball. I know many people have the power to do so, so lets jump on it!

I doubt this bill will pass even in Maryland anyway, but lets stay on our guard?

[trevy38]

*** They don't have enough time on their hands. Sorry ***

[raehl]

American Paintball Players Association
www.paintball-players.org

We'll have petitions in paintball-related locations in and around Baltimore in a couple days.

Also, there's the Paintball Products Manufacturers Association, similar thing only for paintball companies instead of players. They're at www.paintballassociation.org.

- Chris

[toymyster]

We must speak up about this issue!!! I agree with Hasty 100%, If this one passes, they will cram down the rest of our throats, no matter what state we live in!!! It is something paintball indutry as a whole, the players, manufacturers, field owners, etc.. must fight tooth and nail!!! This is where we must make ourselves heard!!! Everyone needs to call or write the legislators now, remember, the more professional you make your letters, the more likely it will be read!!!