Dangerous Games we Play.

[Butterfingers]

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64304

My posts are on pg 2/3

Im afraid for thier saftey I hope Ethan gets back to me soon. People should really do more research before they jump into contriversial territory. Pure DU is relatively "safe" DU waste on the other hand is NOT.

The fact that his DU was "waste" and "came in rods" sereously concerns me. Waste comes from spent fuel rods. Fuel rods are oftentimes enriched with plutonium to increase nuclear yeild.

If this is the case and his source is not pure DU we have a health risk on our hands.

[nutz]

i just looked over it and i dont really understand... but uranium for better performance??? where do they come up with these ideas ??:confused:

[Butterfingers]

uranium is more dense it lets you fit heavier parts into smaller areas. Supposedly for "low pressure." More proof that this low pressure thing is getting out of hand...

[MikeCouves]

Yeah I just read it. Why do people have to have stuff like that. "Well my hammer is made of urnaium, it's magically radioactive so its better than yours...". God the paintball industry is nuts.

[Crazy]

those crazy cocker people :rolleyes:

[Jonno06]

they want less kick,better performance,and a smaller size.Might as well use something radioactive right?

[Skoad]

might give your gun a neat little *glow*
:P

[Minimag4me]

No paintball gun or hammer or barrel or anything is worth cancer. If my chances of cancer are increased by .001% its not worth it. If it increases the risk of human side effects it doesnt belong in paintball or anywhere. Life and testicles are more important than anything paintball.

Point:If you want to risk your life to it for God or country or something you believe in, not a hammer. Dont be stupid, live/play safe.

[SoupRman]

Originally posted by Minimag4me
Life and testicles are more important than anything paintball.


im sorry but that was funny!

also my opinion this uranium hammer would be exposed to your facial area and your hands seeing as we shoot that way. and getting a -3 psi gain for low pressure isn't worth having a tumor in your brain.

[HoppysMag]

just think now not only can you say your cocker is radioactive, but you will have the glow and sterility to prove it!! I hope we dont have a case of "Cocker syndrome" ( ripping off Gulf war syndrome) :D

[pumpamatic]

Dude, I don't think it's that big of deal. You guys ever realize how many things have been proven to cause cancer? Heck, science discovered that particles in many hardwoods such as oak can cause cancer. Now, I don't think one little hammer made out of this hardly radioactive stuff can hurt you more than you staring at your monitor for a couple of hours or inhaling second hand smoke. Heck, I love doing my hobbies too much to just throw them in the garbage and live in a shell because dealing with these materials may run the slightest risk of cancer. People get too scared of everything, the way I see it I have a better chance of getting killed in a car accident than I do getting cancer from issues like these. But if this stuff actually isn't what Ethan thinks it is, I'd be covering my garbage with some lead fast.

[SyntaxError]

sounds a bit dangerous if ethan doesn't know exactly where he got it, and if its completely depleted. Doesn't depleted uranium still have some radioactivity?

[banzaimf]

I have this theory that I have been espousing to my friends.

You shove 10 pounds of anything up a rats butt everyday for 1 year and it will develop cancer.

banzaimf

that being said... would I use one? probably not.

Most of the nuke fuel problem is from plutonium not uranium (as I recall) and yes, the military does use it in large quantities as ammunition. The only apparent negative sideaffects so far are on the recieving side of said ammunition. Other possible issues arise when DU is turned into a very fine powder and gets into the lungs. Then again, baby powder is a risk if enbough of it gets into your lungs. So.. the moral of the story? Don't blow up your cocker with High Explosives and it should be OK. There is a trace amount of radioactivity in your food when you pull it out of the microwave too.

Banzaimf

[rx2]

Waste rods? I would be highly suspicious of anything that hasn't been certified. Even the ammunition-grade depleted uranium used in armor piercing ammunition is still able to emit low levels of radiation (although a negligible amount, especially in comparison to all of the carcinogens we are exposed to daily). Of course, I don't think (or at least I hope) no one would be fooling around with anything they weren't positively sure was a safe grade of DU. Even then, it seems a little silly to go through all of the trouble for such a slight benefit.

[Hysperion]

i disagree, as my unit was formerly 11M or for you non military types bradley ifv guys....we dealt with du tipped armament....it was in a much bigger form then 4oz.....as of 7 months ago we are now air assault light infantry but anyways I think butterfingers is right, if it's from nuclear rods and tipped with plutonium then it's dangerous, otherwise it's not concentrated enough to cause any harm....my .02

[nutz]

this is worse than the superbolt... lol just messing around.. have those cocker guys experimented with other materials yet??

[tysonmachado]

About two years ago I took a Nuclear Physics lab. During the safety discussion we passed around a 'hot' piece of uranium ore from the Czeckoslovakian (I'm pretty sure I misspelled that, sorry) mines. The point being made was that it is safe to handle as long as you don't ingest it and make sure you wash your hands before handling food.
There are three types of radiation; alpha, beta, and gamma. Gamma radiation has a long wavelength which means that it penetrates material easily. Since radiation only transfers energy when it fails to penetrate, gamma radiation is relatively safe. Most of it will pass all the way through your body without transfering any energy. Alpha and beta radiation have much shorter wavelengths, so they do not penetrate very well. In fact, they do not even penetrate the dead layer of skin covering your body. The danger is when they come in contact with the sensitive membranes such as stomach lining or lungs. So don't swallow or breathe radioactive materials.
In short, the radiation from depleted uranium is harmless in the dose you would recieve from such a small source. It sounds like it is actually a hammer with a du core, meaning that it is encased in another metal and thus shielded. In theory this is harmless.
I do not, however, think this is a good idea. Radioactive material is a very sticky subject. Due to general misconceptions this product might be difficult to sell, and it is likely that field owners will be reluctant to allow such things on their field. It could also become ammunition for those who wish to ban paintball. "Our children are running around the woods glorifying violent behavior and playing with radioactive waste..."
This could also be a serious health risk for whoever is manufactuing the parts. If the DU is being milled in a shop there is a high likelyhood that the machinist/craftsman is being exposed to airborne particles as well as residue on the hands and clothes. Since this person or people would be doing this for hours they do risk long-term exposure if they do not take all of the proper precautions.

Long story short, I doubt this will lead to any deaths but it is still not a great idea. There are less controversial material which could be used to produce results which would be indistinguishable for even experienced players.

[cphilip]

tysonmachado you did learn your Health Physics pretty well to be able to sum it up. A bit oversimplified but it works! Nice job. And now I will over simplify the reast of the story for you...

Depleted Uranium is basicaly the left overs from production of Uranium. The mine tailings with residual amounts of natural occuring activity. It is not highly radioactive nor is it spent fuel in any way. And yes you can obtain it and you can even make products out of it...but...you have to have NRC and State Regulatory oversite to do so. He did not, I think, have that. That involves a full licensing and Health Physics Program that is first approved and then regularly reviewed. And that includes monitoring of the personel and facility. And since Uranium, even in depleted amounts, is toxic if ingested it is a harmfull substance so you must comply with all the EPA regulations too in your process and discharges of effluent from it. And register with the EPA as a Generators of waste. And your Local POTW as well. VEry complicated and costly to be a manufacturere that uses a substance like this. It can be done. But it is fraught with legal pitfalls if you do not have an environmental person who knows both EPA and NRC regs to head it up and has written and licensed programs for these two agencies...like me! I fear the profit area would be too small for the bother anyway.


But trust me...it's not realy something to be worried about and its not spent fuel or something like that. Far from that.

[Butterfingers]

Actually early forms of DU were derived from Spent Uranium Fuel Rods the US Gov stopped doing that for obvious reasons.

[Butterfingers]

Stolen from my own posts on PBC.

We don't know what ethan is using, that is the concern. If they are spent nuclear fuel rods they can contain plutonium. In that case it is dangerous.

I am well aware of the radiological effects of DU, you get more radiation than a medical X ray than a years exposure from DU. But if the source of the DU is tainted it could pose a health risk. In the case it is not a 120mm M1 Abrams Sabot round or any other source of pure DU that could be a problem. You need to know your sources. Having bought it from a "waste dealer" concerns me. Plutonium is orders of magnitude more radioactive. 100,000 times if my memory serves me correctly.

Conclusively PURE and only PURE DU or inertly alloyed DU does not pose a radiological hazard. You get more radiation from cosmic rays annually. Thats a fact. If you lived on the highway of death from Kuwait City to Basra Iraq for one year. Your total radiation exposure would be less than a chest x-ray.

But thats not the only hazard DU can pose. The military seems to be a bit sketchy on heavy metal hazards. Thats where private research comes in...

(IE) tank crews cleaning up afterwards and inhaling large amounts of DU particles as a result of the aftermath of sabot penetration has been a subject of controversy concerning the gulf war syndrome.

Health effects of DU can be seen by internalization of particles. A form of heavy metal poisining.

DU does pose heavy metal toxicity, just like lead. If you inhale or injest it or otherwise find ways for it to get into your bloodstream it can cause kidney damage. No risk for players, but it could be quite a risk for machinists that have to mill this stuff.

Ther has also been speculation that internalization of DU multiples the radiation hazard. DU decays primariy through weak alpha an beta particles that are considered safe because they cannot penetatrate the thick epithelial layers of the skin.

Beta particles can penetrate the thin layers of the aveoli in the lungs and the intestines. This beta radiation has enough energy to cleave DNA and cause other such mechanical modifications to the human genome. When this happens and if you cells don't undergo genome correction or apoptosis, folks we have cancer.

Im not sure how much force is required for pyrogenesis but impact forces cause DU to burn and turn into DU oxides which pose a hazard. Pyrogenesis of metal is what makes it so effective as an armor penatrator. It burns and self sharpens as it works its way through metal. Essentially melting through metal exactly like a hot knife through butter, spewing massive amounts of suspended airborne DU oxide particulate matter in the process. Chances are that impact with your valve stem wont produce enough force to cause this but I include it so you can get the full picute of DU's properties.

[Gunga]

Read this today:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0203120277mar12.story

From the Chicago Tribune


AROUND THE WORLD

Study: Uranium munitions may cause kidney damage
Items compiled from Tribune news services

March 12, 2002

LONDON, ENGLAND -- A few soldiers, mainly Americans, might suffer kidney damage from depleted uranium munitions used in the Persian Gulf and Balkans conflicts if they swallowed or inhaled enough of the dust, a report published Tuesday said.

Most at risk are those who were involved in friendly-fire incidents or in cleanup activities, said the assessment by The Royal Society, Britain's academy of scientists.

The report was prompted by concerns raised last year that the dust created by hits with depleted uranium shells could cause cancer or metal poisoning.

Italian researchers began studying the illnesses of veterans of Balkans peacekeeping missions after noting an apparently high number of cancers. Scores of other countries then announced they also would begin screening their troops.

Italy subsequently reported it found the incidence of cancer in soldiers who served in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo was lower than that in the general population.

In line with other expert groups that have studied the issue, The Royal Society panel determined that the majority of soldiers on the battlefields of Kosovo, Bosnia and the Persian Gulf would not have been exposed to high enough levels of depleted uranium to suffer harm.


Copyright © 2002, Chicago Tribune

[Blennidae]

OK, let me first say that I'm not a cocker expert, nor do I know much about radioactive substances.

From my viewpoint, this is almost a "you're kidding" kind of idea. I mean is it really necessary to have a part of a paintball gun made out of a possibly dangerous substance? Is this part going to revolutionize the cocker as we know it, or is this whole thing just for the "gee whiz" factor. It has been said here on AO that Titanium really has no use in paintball guns, as the benefits aren't worth the cost. Shouldn't the same logic apply to DU?

If I want to kill a tank, give me DU. If I'm trying to hit a guy 30ft away from me with a paintball, steel, aluminium, or delrin is fine with me.

Of course radioactive substances may mutate the elves, and that could be a real issue...

[cphilip]

That was kind of my point realy when I said this:


Originally posted by cphilip
...Very complicated and costly to be a manufacturer that uses a substance like this. It can be done. But it is fraught with legal pitfalls if you do not have an environmental person who knows both EPA and NRC regs to head it up and has written and licensed programs for these two agencies...like me! I fear the profit area would be too small for the bother anyway.

[Butterfingers]

On a lighter note...

I think it would be a tactical disadvantage.

Just go on the feild with a geiger counter and you will know where everbody is. :)

[cphilip]

True but the activity is so small you would be well within in Bunker range before you knew he was there by that method! :D

You can start to pick up a range above background of a bottle of powder of this stuff with a GM meter at about 3 feet. But barely and its logrithmicaly higher and more noticable at about a foot or less. GM meters even with large detector surface areas are only like 20% efficent at best.

[Blennidae]

Originally posted by Butterfingers

Just go on the feild with a geiger counter and you will know where everbody is. :)

Hey is that an upgrade for the IR3?

[cphilip]

HA! Good one!!! :D Who knows... it just might be? :rolleyes:

[Butterfingers]

Phil the IR3 will have a geiger multiplier which multiplies normal readings 100,000 times. The readings will then be correlated with the optional on-board GPS mapping system on the optional heads up display so you know where the culprit is to the nearest milimeter. So you DU people are pretty much screwed.

[cphilip]

Good to know Butter. I am buying me one of them IR3's now! I want the one with the built in toaster oven can opener in the handle.:D

[lazyrider77]

i still believe DU is more harmful than we think. It is also used in as balast for mnay commercial jets and the FAA put out a warning a few yrs back that anyone cleaning up wreckage at a jet crash had to be in full chemical waste gear. so here we have the gov admiting that it is dangerous and deadly. meanwhile, they are blowing all of the balkans off the face of the earth w/ DU shells.

[Trunnion]

why not use a lighter, but still dense metal? in WWII the army used Tungsten in their AP rounds because it was a dense metal. why not use something like that?

[Butterfingers]

Yep but tungsten would be too hard to mill, it would wear out thier machines like nothing. And it would also be expensve to buy. Tungsten is actually more dense than uranium.

The reason the US gov switched to DU was because it was much cheaper, and it self sharpened and burned whereas tungsten would just flatten when it hit tanks.

This DU stuff is overkill. Nothing was wrong with steel. They just wanted somthing else to market.

[tremis]

Tungsten must not be too expensive/hard to machine. The guide rod in my 45 is tungsten and it cost me 48 bucks. The stainless version from the same company (EGW) is twenty. It's a two piece guide rod, so it screws together, and they had drill and tap it. Its more than twice the price, but I wouldn't call it cost prohibitive. How much did the DU cost? It might be possible to buy tungsten round stock in the size you need, so you wouldn't have to turn it down.BTW the SS guide rod is 57g and the tungsten is 88g so its over 50% heavier. If heavier is what they want, it sounds good to me.

Tremis

[Spaceman613]

What I find comical is that these guys want no chopping but they only look in of area. I have an idea that I am working on for a cocker that will reduce chops. Yes I use a cocker, but I dont waste my money on a heavy hammer. I'm looking at other areas to help performance.

The freeflow to me is 90% marketing, it is nice gun, but no better than any other well tuned cocker. Mine wont chop a ball, but it isnt arbor honed or any other goofy scheme... Cockers are the best place to make money because all of the 12-18 year old punks with rich parents will buy them new parts till the cows come home.

"OOOH a new 4 way, i must have it to get my trigger .1mm shorter"

These people are SHEEP... DU is fine, it may be safe, but is it needed to smack a valve and release air? NO, use it to blast Terrorist and militant vehicles.. I want A-10's dumping so much of the stuff that these cocker sheep will fly to the middle east for hammer material.

Ok, sorry, I got off my point.

[CRySyS]

Well if your shooting at someone your trying to kill them so even if there is a chance that the shell will give them cancer its really a moot point don't you think? ;)

As for the DU hammer, why not Tungsten? It heavier and not that soft. And it doesn't have half the world up in arm about its "possible" harmfull side effects.

You do know that inhaling aluminum dust is very harmfull to your health. Better drop your guns, they can kill you! ;)

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by tremis
Tungsten must not be too expensive/hard to machine. The guide rod in my 45 is tungsten and it cost me 48 bucks. The stainless version from the same company (EGW) is twenty. It's a two piece guide rod, so it screws together, and they had drill and tap it. Its more than twice the price, but I wouldn't call it cost prohibitive. How much did the DU cost? It might be possible to buy tungsten round stock in the size you need, so you wouldn't have to turn it down.BTW the SS guide rod is 57g and the tungsten is 88g so its over 50% heavier. If heavier is what they want, it sounds good to me.

Tremis

DU is DIRT cheap. Especially recycled DU from A nuclear Power Plant which Ethan Just admitted in his post on PBN. I am definately staying away from this stuff. He has no idea what kind of materials that DU is mixed with. A risky proposition. Ethan admitted that the cost of DU is less than the cost of his steel hammers.

Quote from Ethan: "I called the DOT (this is the office that approves DU sale once the ok comes from uncle sam). They gave me the info to purchase DU from a local supplier (a nuclear power plant)."

These are in fact nuclear fuel rods, not pure non- fissionable DU used in sabot rounds. These rods at one point in thier life were capable of nuclear fission. Risky business.

[TylerDurden]

Yeah, but it's a new way to get cheap glow in the dark paintballs. J/K. Seriously though, even the gov. has started cutting back on using DU in the A-10's. I figure if the gov. thinks theres something wrong than who am i to argue.:p