Who Thinks That Hopper and Gun Hits Should be Outlawed for all Games? [Archive]

Vex

03-13-2002, 06:38 PM

But see, paintball IS NOT WAR! It is tag. And paintball did not start out as emulating war. It started out with dudes marking trees for logging and then they just started shooting each other. Of course, the "war game" mentality emerged, and paintball is what it is today due to that. But why should a gun hit count? They didn't hit YOU, they hit your gun. Your gun is still operational after it is hit, isn't it?
Even if you're completely out in the open, and your gun/hopper is hit, and you're called out, don't you feel robbed? If someone is forced to only aim at your hopper, then that means that you're doing a good job at staying concealed and it's up to the opponent to be able to out-flank you.

Disclaimer: I am not flaming anyone, I just feel very strongly on this subject.

FooTemps

03-13-2002, 06:41 PM

Ok... the gun and hopper isn't your body but it's an extention of your body... It is what you use to play. It's like how we use feet to walk and shoes to walk comfortably. Do shoe shots count? yes!

OldSchoolMag

03-13-2002, 06:42 PM

But, paintball is a war-simulating game. If you're going to do it, do it right.

Besides, why drop gun/hopper hits? And if you do, why stop there? Nobody likes pack hits either, let's drop those. And hey, I hate it when some guy gogs me, I only wear 'em because I HAVE to, so they're gone too! And chlothes, don't get me started! My philosophy is if you take it on the field with you, and it gets shot - you're out. Pack, gun, hopper, etc. If you don't want it hit TUCK IN, or DON'T BRING IT OUT THERE! Other than that, good luck!

OSM

RATM

03-13-2002, 06:43 PM

Thats like saying, no they didn't hit me, they hit my mask. And if its hit it technically shouldn't be operational..unless you consider yourself still operational after being hit. And in a real case scenario, if your weapon is hit there is a good chance it would shatter and send peices of metal or whatever its made out of into your flesh.

HoppysMag

03-13-2002, 06:45 PM

Becuase the gun is an extension of your arm!! you can control it. if your hit in the gun its your fault. and the gun is a vital part of the game. and still paintball is based on war. no mater how hard you try to debate it it is. in some cases more than others. Rec games that are in the woods are most like war. Sup Air is least like war. But it is still based on the rules of woods, which is based on war.

I think your just upset that you lost becuase of a gun shot that was well placed, or lucky, or whatever the case maybey. Get over it. They are the rules.

Mav D MagMan

03-13-2002, 06:49 PM

Well to be honest gun/hopper hits do have a strong argument on both sides.

Although it is frustrating to get hit in the gun when you're holding it out to shoot... And to be honest it, really don't take a whole lota skill to unload on an annodized block of metal...

When I first started at SC Village (in their Rec play, gun hits dont count) my first act was to turn the hopper sideways. Walla! Insta shield, I could sit and shoot at them exposing gun, mask, and hopper but they couldn't hit me. A wee bit unfair...

So it's fairly easy to see how this disagreement can slide either way forever... as such things often do, specially with deep thinkers such as you fellow AO'ers.

nutz

03-13-2002, 06:53 PM

hopper hits and gun hits are a part of the game...

it adds a level of difficulty of trying to keep ur gun as tight as possiblem...

Vex

03-13-2002, 06:56 PM

Whoa cowboy! (HoppysMag) I'm not pissed because of a "well-placed" gun/hopper shot. First of all, do you realize how hard it is just to hit the body of a person (a very large target)? Do you think it's easier to hit the hopper or the gun (much smaller) Come on, be reasonable! No one can honestly say that they aim for hoppers or guns on purpose and hit them with complete accuracy--and if you do say that, then I will argue that you are an uneducated fool. You may hit the gun/hopper as a result of shooting at someone's physique, but most likely not on purpose.

A goggle shot is different--THEY ARE ATTACHED TO YOUR HEAD! Of course a head shot counts--DUH! Shoes and packs are attached to your body and are streamlined to the contours of your body, and, if they weren't there, then you would be hit in that part of the body. But if the tip of your gun barrel, which is put into places and positions that your body cannot go is hit, then why should it count against you? Your hopper sticks up above your head. So if you chunk a ball in your barrel, and you need to set your gun down to squeegee it out, and your gun gets hit, but you're not holding it, then you should be out? Come on! I know this is why they made the Warp Feed--which is why I think hopper and gun hits should be done away with altogether! Does anybody out there feel the same way that I do?

Who made this as a rule? Did people vote on it? I sure didn't. I'm just tired of people telling me, "That's the way it's always been, dude."

Think about it logically before you go on a Rant-page.

Predater

03-13-2002, 07:10 PM

i aim for guns and hoppers all the time. got 4 people out sunday by aiming at the hopper. dont tell me that people dont aim for guns. gun hits count cuz you took it on the field. if you get gun hits banned i want to ban pack and mask hits too. come on, its part of the game.

Jonno06

03-13-2002, 07:12 PM

i think people with common sence came up with that rule.Or the exact opposite(NPPL)

Vex

03-13-2002, 07:13 PM

I'm not telling you that people don't aim for guns or hoppers...sheesh! I wish people would read, or re-read, the ENTIRE post before saying that I'm stupid (in not so many words) It IS very difficult to only aim at guns/hoppers and have a high hit average--unless you play with a bunch of statues.

MikeCouves

03-13-2002, 07:14 PM

I agree. I always try to get someone that is poking out of the bunker. It works alot of the time! The hopper is a large part of the marker can be used by the opponent to take you out. The person with the hopper sticking out has to stay tight to the bunker as much as they can.

It should definately be legal!

Predater

03-13-2002, 07:21 PM

i aim for what i see. if a hopper is all thats there i shoot at it. and i have reread your last post and it still sounds like you said noone aims at guns. im not trying to flaim you, i just thaught thats what you ment.

Hysperion

03-13-2002, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by Phazeshifter... "No one can honestly say that they aim for hoppers or guns on purpose and hit them with complete accuracy--and if you do say that, then I will argue that you are an uneducated fool."

I'd argue you are the fool. How many times have you played paintball? I'm guessing not that often. If you have you would realize that people tend to stay behind obstacles. Unlike real bullets, paintballs DO NOT penetrate obstacles, therefore you aim at what you can see, not where center mass is. Usually, you see the hopper or their goggles. WHY? Well maybe because that's all they stick out when they want to shoot at you! I can't stand places where gun/hand hits dont count, all that means is that I stick my gun around the bunker and lay down a cloud of paint. Anyone here who has played paintball in any tournament or any competitive form will agree with me. This whole thread is utterly pointless. And the only people who don't want hand hits to count own classic mags, or worse and play 1ce a month or less.

Cypres0099

03-13-2002, 07:27 PM

I'll tell you why gun hits shouuld count. With my warp I have no hopper to protect my head!:)

Seriously though, when I play paintball I would say that nearly half of the people I hit, I hit in the gun or hopper. It's just how we play that never really exposes anything but a bit of our masks and our guns. I simply despise playing no gun hits.

I was playing at a local field once and my entire team was eliminated except me. So I was in this creek, it's half speedball half woods, with 5 people on me and they were all unloading, and no they weren't newbies they all had "good" guns. I hit two of them in the hopper and they thought we weren't playing hopper hits. So what happens? They all pop their guns over the top of their bunkers while I countinuously pop them in the hopper, and I get lit up.

So that's my personal I hate no gun/hopper hits story.

Blennidae

03-13-2002, 07:35 PM

Phazeshifter:

As you can see the overwhelming opinion is that gun/hopper hits should and do count. They always have and always will. Its part of the game. Everyone aims for whatever is exposed. If you dangle your foot out from an obstacle and I can see it, I'll try my best to hit it. The same goes for any other part of your equipment. If you dont like hopper hits, get a warp feed, thats really all you can do to avoid them.

HoppysMag

03-13-2002, 08:12 PM

Hysperion whatch what you say...I have a classic mag. and i support the gun hits. so why do you assume that classic mags dont want gun hits... im interested to know. i mean its kinda obvious i support gun hits, and hey look at my sig, in BIG BLUE letters it says, and i quote
68 Automag
Are we a little prejudice? i find this very offensive. Please respond..

And the only people who don't want hand hits to count own classic mags, or worse and play 1ce a month or less. whats that suposed to mean.. i want to know..

EDIT: Im not actualy al that mad, but i would like to know why you said that?

Nitroduck

03-13-2002, 08:27 PM

Hopper and gun hits should count. If they didnt, you could just blind shoot all day and never get called out. Who wants a world like that? If you hate gun hits, DONT STICK SO MUCH OF THE GUN OUT OF THE BUNKER. I've been playing for 4 years and havent got more than 2 gun hits in my life....Why? I dont stick it out of the bunker unless Im snap shooting, and when I shoot, all that sticks out is the barrel.

Phaseshifter, whos the un-educated fool? I know many people that aim specifically for the hopper. Why? Half the time thats the one thing that sticks out of a bunker when you shoot.

I know tons of people that aim only for the hopper. Why? Its the only place that you can shoot and it'll break 99% of the time....Why not exploit that fact?

Wayland Fong

03-13-2002, 08:39 PM

i just wanna put in my 2 cents. when i first started playing paintball, i felt the same way you did. i felt cheesed by those lame hopper hits. but since then, i've changed my mind. this is my reasoning.

if you play recreational paintball, its mostly meant to imitate wargames. and in a real battle, having your weapon shot usually means that it is broken and you are as good as dead. you may not actually die, but as far as the enemy is concerned, you're out of the fight and thats what matters. (btw, i refer to it as a "weapon", because we don't say "gun" in the Army. and neither does the Marine Corps.)

if you play tournament paintball, hopper hits promotes snap shooting standoffs. if the opposing player is shooting at you, most of his otherwise exposed portion of his body (mostly shoulders and head) is behind his gun. there is very little that you can actually shoot if gun and hopper hits don't count. this makes snap shooting someone out of the game extremely difficult. if you can't shoot anyone out, you can't make openings for movement. games would be extremely slow.

so there you have it. that is why gun and hopper hits should count. if you can't deal with getting eliminated with a "cheap" shot, learn to snap shoot better. its that simple.

MajorDamage

03-13-2002, 08:41 PM

I think they SHOULD count, I mean most of the time people get hit in the mask or gun/hopper. If you know how to play right you will barely ever leave yourself open for a hit anywhere else, except when like changing bunkers and stuff. Games would go on forever without them.

ENDO!

RT_Luver

03-13-2002, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by OldSchoolMag
But, paintball is a war-simulating game. If you're going to do it, do it right.

Besides, why drop gun/hopper hits? And if you do, why stop there? Nobody likes pack hits either, let's drop those. And hey, I hate it when some guy gogs me, I only wear 'em because I HAVE to, so they're gone too! And chlothes, don't get me started! My philosophy is if you take it on the field with you, and it gets shot - you're out. Pack, gun, hopper, etc. If you don't want it hit TUCK IN, or DON'T BRING IT OUT THERE! Other than that, good luck!

OSM

I agree totally...couldn't have said it better

MagMan5446

03-13-2002, 08:53 PM

Buy a damn warp feed and quit complaining.

nutz

03-13-2002, 10:45 PM

a hit is a hit...

ppl are right it would slow down the game alot...

another point to bring up is that it would cause many arguements between players and refs... like if ur totaly clean but theres a hit right by ur trigger frame and ur thumb has a little bit of shell and paint on it so its not clear where it hit... i know this doesnt happen often but it does happen and people would for sure argue about that... i just dont see it doing anything good for the game, i think hopper hits just up the level of skill and precision needed to become the best at what u do

hehe 1000th post

im not celebrating ;)

Miscue

03-13-2002, 10:50 PM

If this were the case, I'd get a really big hopper and use the dang thing as a shield. :)

FooTemps

03-13-2002, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by Miscue
If this were the case, I'd get a really big hopper and use the dang thing as a shield. :)

Already said that cue...

Miscue

03-13-2002, 10:54 PM

Humm... maybe I should take you off ignore. :) (j/k)

FooTemps

03-13-2002, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by Miscue
Humm... maybe I should take you off ignore. :) (j/k)

...::no comment::

lol, I bolded the part I said just for you 'cue...

Trunnion

03-13-2002, 11:00 PM

the war theory put out there doesn't really work in paintball. true, in combat if your gun was hit you may not be injured seriously or possibly even at all. however, your gun is gone, and now you have to find a replacement. until you do, you're rather useless. the easiest way would be to take a weapon off of another casualty. in paintball however, there is no way for a paintball hit to 'turn off' your gun and similate the destruction of your weapon. thus, hopper and gun shots should count. plus, in an arena, as has already been stated, the gun and hopper are often the only things showing. certainly in an arena our tourny setting, gun shots should count since they occur often. you can get away with it in the woods cause such hits don't occur quite as often. if you hunker down behind bunkers in the woods you're askin to get flanked. take all the gun shots you want, cause someone is gonna nail in the back if you stay there

ThePatriot

03-13-2002, 11:06 PM

Well DUH, if you outlawed hopper hits, AGD would lose some of their market to sell WARP FEEDS. They were thinking about outlawing gun hits, but then tom said NO! Because tom is the man everyone listened to him....

It's that simple folks..LOL:D

Snooky

03-13-2002, 11:11 PM

Without hopper and gun hits paintball would be very different. i know i play while keeping in mind that the hopper and the gun is a target. so i try to keep it from being shot at. i think that hopper and gun shots are needed so that paintball doesnt become laser tag where u can hide ur sensors and go unharmed.

SoupRman

03-14-2002, 04:55 AM

Originally posted by phazeshifter
I personally do not see the point in having hopper and gun hits count on the field. In fact, I downright hate it when I am called out for one of those lame hits!

Let me, and everyone else, know how you feel AOers!

:mad:

save that for rec-ball. but in tournies a hits a hit.

SoupRman

03-14-2002, 04:58 AM

Originally posted by AssassN
I kind of agree with u except that u could just sit behind a bunker and shot over and leave people no option but to shoot ur gun or hopper. but other wise i agree

blind shots dont count :p

FeelTheRT

03-14-2002, 05:32 AM

Originally posted by phazeshifter
I personally do not see the point in having hopper and gun hits count on the field. In fact, I downright hate it when I am called out for one of those lame hits!

Let me, and everyone else, know how you feel AOers!

:mad:

quit whining and learn how to play. Tilt your gun whenever you shoot out from the top so its not sticking out that much.

Paintballer86

03-14-2002, 05:43 AM

Quit complaining. Get a warp feed.

luke

03-14-2002, 05:54 AM

phazeshifter,

Learn to play you bunkers. :)

cphilip

03-14-2002, 09:12 AM

If the Marker or hopper is hit then it is no longer usable. Just like you are dead if you are hit. Is that not so? Of course it is. So fine! Change the rule and lay down your marker and continute to play without it! That might be fun huh? :rolleyes:

Kaiser Bob

03-14-2002, 09:53 AM

Good call cphilip! New rule: If you get hit in the gun, you can only throw paintballs for the rest of the game! Also Hysperion, whats the deal with the Classic mag diss? Since when did not owning a SFL make you a newb! :confused:

DarkRipper

03-14-2002, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by FooTemps
Not to mention, if gun shots didn't count then people would buy SUPER HUGE GUNS/HOPPERS and use them as shields...

What he said.

I don't feel robbed when I get hit in the hopper or gun, as it's just a game. It takes skill to shoot me out and hit what little gun I show when I play. Therefore, gun hits should stay as they are, allowed.

In fact, I hate playing rec games where gun hits DON'T count, because that's normally all you see when you are playing.

That's normally what I shoot for too, the hopper hanging out of the bunker.

:)
DR

cphilip

03-14-2002, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by DarkRipper
That's normally what I shoot for too, the hopper hanging out of the bunker.:)
DR

Correctamundo Dark! And on a good player that is all you should be able to see to hit!

gibby

03-14-2002, 10:56 AM

WARNING: Stupid reply up ahead...

Hehe...okay, think of your marker as your baby. Would you want your baby to get shot? :)

Hysperion

03-14-2002, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by Snooky: "i think that hopper and gun shots are needed so that paintball doesnt become laser tag where u can hide ur sensors and go unharmed."

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Hysperion

03-14-2002, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Kaiser Bob: "Classic mag diss? Since when did not owning a SFL make you a newb!"

Reread what I said and quit assuming idiocy....I stated,

"And the only people who don't want hand hits to count own classic mags, or worse and play like 1ce a month"

I was simply stating that most people new to the game own a gun like a spyder or tippman and that classic mags are high end for newbies. "Classic mags, or worse" I don't see many newbies shooting e-mags....they either pay for their gun themselves and buy a tippmann, pmi piranha, or classic mag with co2, or their daddy buys them an angel.....A classic mag was my first gun and I loved it, I would probably play better with a classic then with my sfl because I'm scared of getting it dirty/scratched :)

Phil

03-14-2002, 03:19 PM

On our field we dont count hopper or gun hits. We dont allow blind shooting. If you use anything as a shield and it is hit you are out. You can take one shot in the chest or head and two shots in the arms or legs. Splatter does not count, you must feel the impact of a paintball. These rules work for us and we have alot of fun.

cphilip

03-14-2002, 03:22 PM

Sounds like Pansy Ball... http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/wiggle2.gif

Just kidding!

Vex

03-14-2002, 05:50 PM

All right, Darnit!

This thread wasn't opened to be burned to a singe...

I may be stubborn in my ways, and I am, but I'm not an idiot...(quit laughing and saying "yes you are!")

I've actually been playing for what I consider to be a very long time--9 years. It doesn't matter how many tournaments you've played in, or what kind of hopper you have. In my experiences, I've certainly played on more "no gun/hopper hits counting" fields than vice-versa. I stated my OPINION (and we all have opinions...) that I did not like gun/hopper hits. I never said anything about hand hits--your hand is a part of your body.

I don't feel that your marker is a true extention of your arm/hand/body because, 1. Paintball guns don't have the accuracy of a real gun, therefore it's not nearly as important to think of your weapon as an extention of your arm, so that when you shoot, you actually hit your target. Yes, I've shot many guns throughout my life and NO, I'M NOT CLAIMING TO BE A GUN EXPERT!! But I do have to keep qualified on the M-16 and 9mm weapons every year as a requirement for mobility status, thanks to the Air Force.

Frankly, I don't understand why everyone thinks that I'm just this total moron for not liking gun/hopper hits that count. I've shot people in thier guns/hoppers many times--while they were out in the open! On all of the fields that I've played on, blind-firing is not allowed. Only pansies who have no manhood would blind-fire anyway. And if you are offended by this statement, then you're probably a wiper, too!

I've never protested a gun/hopper hit on me during a game if I know that those are the rules of the field. Rules are rules. I'm an extremely good sport when it comes to anything I do. I especially take pride in the fact that I consider myself a good paintball player. I've been around the block and I've seen every kind of good and poor sport there is.

My opinion, and I'll simply state it as such is: I personally think gun and hopper hits should not count. Tournaments are a different story, however. And, just to clear the air, I've never stated that they shouldn't count for tournaments. I guess what this all boils down to is: it's just up to the individual field.

But keep those opinions coming, and spray on AO! :D

FooTemps

03-14-2002, 06:02 PM

OH! Now that you've cleared it up... LOSERS WOULD STILL USE THEM AS SHIELDS IF THEY COULD. Heck, I bet a lot of idiots would probably attach a piece of plywood to the revy to make it bigger. I mean, why not? It's just a "hopper enhancement modification" so it's legally still part of the hopper...

cphilip

03-15-2002, 07:19 AM

Well the argument is that if a real bullet was to hit your gun in combat your gun would be shattered and therefore disabled and therefore you would be eliminated from the fire fight as well. So that logic extended to all equipment when the game of paintball evolved from Combat type situations. And still makes sense from that standpoint. But in Rec ball you play what the majority wants to play I guess.

masterninja

03-15-2002, 07:37 AM

You are your marker, Your marker is you. Without you your marker is useless. You are useless without your marker. Nuff said.

FatMan

03-15-2002, 08:22 AM

Now this REALLY gets the fat guy PO'd!

Paintball is NOT war. It did NOT start as a war simulation. Most people who play paintball are NOT simulating war. War is a VERY different thing.

Paintball does NOT simulate the use of real guns and bullets to shoot people. Spend some time talking to someone with actual combat tatical experience and you'll find that almost everything you do in paintball is a BAD idea if you are dealing with REAL guns.

The rules of paintball are NOT based on what happens if you are shot with real bullets by a real gun in a real war. We have MORE THAN ENOUGH PROBLEMS with our image without you bone-heads going around saying that stuff. Get it out of your head! Painball is NOT war, and does NOT simulate shooting real guns at people.

Paintball is a game. As such the rules can be written HOWEVER YOU LIKE THEM. I have played in games where you can take multiple hits, where after being hit you can re-enter the game by various means, where guns hits don't count and also the traditional game where ANY hit anywhere counts.

If you and the people you play with agree on a set of rules - then play by them and have a good time. The problem I have with the original post is the author proposed to "outlaw" gun and hopper hits. Hey dude, play your game however you want but LEAVE MINE ALONE! I like the game the way we play it. I don't care how you play it as long as you enjoy yourself, but we are happy with our game - so leave it be.

The rules of paintball as played at most places evolved to deal with the various issues already pointed out - they make sense. There is no point in arguing them. The only real problem occurs if some players at one field want to use one set of rules and others want a different set. Hey guys, welcome to the human race. You are just going to have to work that out or don't play together.

Hey look, argue all you want about gun hits and hopper hits, that's fine with me, but leave the bullets and war out of it. Its just WRONG!

Play SAFE and have FUN,

FatMan

cphilip

03-15-2002, 08:45 AM

Your soooo sensitive. Most folks seem to be about that part of the subject. It might not BE war but its a battle simulation or at least was early on. I agree its not something we want to encourage but a little reflection on its simulation of that is called for ocasionaly and amongst friends. :rolleyes:

A lot of paintball scenarios (in fact almost all) are indeed recreations of famous battles or war conflicts. Like it or not FatMan! Take that! :D

shartley

03-15-2002, 08:53 AM

I gots only one thing to say...

HeeHee :D:D:D

FatMan

03-15-2002, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by cphilip
Your soooo sensitive. Most folks seem to be about that part of the subject. It might not BE war but its a battle simulation or at least was early on. I agree its not something we want to encourage but a little reflection on its simulation of that is called for ocasionaly and amongst friends. :rolleyes:

A lot of paintball scenarios (in fact almost all) are indeed recreations of famous battles or war conflicts. Like it or not FatMan! Take that! :D

Yeah, I'm sensitive about that issue. It cheeses me off! I will agree that scenario games ARE war simulations - and that is where you will find many of the rules based on "real combat." Things like "medics" and so on. You're right we can't hide from that.

Once again, the ORIGINAL paintball games were NOT war based. That grew up later.

Still, what MOST people play is NOT war based and the RULES are not war based. And no, I don't think it is appropriate, even occasionally and between friends to go down that road in a public forum. Now if someone wants to run a thread about rules in scenario games I won't be the least bit offended - might even chime in - that that is not what this thread was doing (or at least it didn't seem to me).

Sorry Phil, but my hackles are up and I'm not backing down on this. War is a terrible thing where lives are ruined and things destroyed. Paintball is a game where people have fun. Battle recreations are something alltogether different - where people remember important events and those who died in them. Paintball scenarios are something I don't know WHAT.

So I've said my bit and now the rest of you who think I'm crazy and go on and talk, sorry if I deficated on your parade.

Further Deponent Sayeth Not!

FatMan

cphilip

03-15-2002, 09:12 AM

Hey! I got it! An Idea for a Scenario Game that is not battle related at all. Break this steriotype right up! here is the plan...

We call it "Peoples Park".

Thats right! It will be set in 1960's Berkley California. One team will all dress like hippies and take over a piece of land destined to be a parking lot and liberate it from this evil fate. And smoke dope and sit around having free love and planting flowers. the other team will be the College administration and apose them. Should be safe right?

Oh wait we gotta problem here. The College Administration called in the National Guard and we are going to have a big meeting about this. Lets see what happens... :(

Anyone of you young kids remember the historical outcome of this peacefull demonstration?

cphilip

03-15-2002, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by FatMan
Still, what MOST people play is NOT war based and the RULES are not war based.

Then why do we all die and go to the dead box?

And no, I don't think it is appropriate, even occasionally and between friends to go down that road in a public forum.

Absolutely disagree with that. What better place to debate this than in a Paintball Forum?

Is admirable that you want to distance ourselves from this connection and certainly nessicary for the future of the sport. But it is never going to be so disconnected from it from mear protestations and denials. In fact it's your point to not even talk about it that interests me the most. And confuses me at the same time. That probably would make more people suspicious of the link who didn't know better. I do not agree that scenarios games are played to honor anyone. Shatnerball? Gimme a break dude! I think they are indeed for the fun of the participants playing paintball. Reinactments with historical weaponry and costumes do what you are talking about. Not paintball scenarios. I think your foolin yourself on that one.

TheTramp

03-15-2002, 09:32 AM

The first paintball games were called survival and the point was to take flags and hunt the other players down. Much more war like then a speedball game.

I can completely understand not wanting paintball associated with real gunfights but saying that there's no conection is simply wrong. Why do so many agencies use paintball to simulate real gunfights? There is a conection weather you like it or not.

edit: I don't like to play in games where gun hits don't count. Whenever I do I'll put my gun up over the bunker and just hold it there. Everyone unloads on it and a lot of paint gets wasted. When they stop to reload I come out and shoot them. This cheeses people off but I just say playing without gun hits on a speedball field is cheesy anyway. I could understand in a big woods field but if you are any good then the only thig to hit on a speedball field is you gun/hopper and a VERY little bit of your mask.

HoppysMag

03-15-2002, 09:43 AM

Hey! I got it! An Idea for a Scenario Game that is not battle related at all. Break this steriotype right up! here is the plan...

We call it "Peoples Park".

Thats right! It will be set in 1960's Berkley California. One team will all dress like hippies and take over a piece of land destined to be a parking lot and liberate it from this evil fate. And smoke dope and sit around having free love and planting flowers. the other team will be the College administration and apose them. Should be safe right?

Oh wait we gotta problem here. The College Administration called in the National Guard and we are going to have a big meeting about this. Lets see what happens...

Anyone of you young kids remember the historical outcome of this peacefull demonstration?

Ya it ended in the unfortunate death of like 3 people right? At Kent State? sorry i am litteraly a "Young Kid" so im taking a swing in the dark.

cphilip

03-15-2002, 09:47 AM

OK let me take Walts side then on this part for him. It was not the first game being a War Battle simulation if you think abouti it. They played capture the flag. Now it can be argued that in War you kind of do that in a way. Capture the enimies fort or something and hoist your flag up to show you took it. But they did not play it that way at all. And they have boundries and such not much like a war scenario...but agian...it can be argued. It is not in our best interest to associate it with that as it has evolved into a sport with clear objectives and plays and such. And we already know about Bud Orr and Top Gun winning the court fight to declassify Paintball Makers as not being Fire Arms. They were actually classified as "Fire Arms" in NJ when the first game happened if you didn't know that. So we are not using Fire Arms anymore (if ever) and no one dies now, the are "eliminated" from the game. Although we use the term Die loosly even still. Probably shouldn't. Now one can argue this is all political correctness. Or one could say it is trying to paint another picture and a more acurate one of what Paintball is today. That I think is Walts point. He is saying its not JUST political correctness in this case it's a "more accurate description" of the facts as they now stand. And he see's it as a digression to a place it should not return in the publics perception. And I agree with that.

cphilip

03-15-2002, 09:51 AM

HoppysMag, correct and a lot of people tear gassed. They called them all to a meeting in a square. Police and Nat Guard let them in but refused to let them back out. Once they ahd them all in there they gassed them with grenades and Helicopters. I am not sure the death toll. You might be right. I just put that in to break the tension a little. For some reason it came to mind.

AGDmagman2001

03-15-2002, 10:01 AM

Yeah, gun/hopper hit should count, I mean 75% + of the time I get hit is in the mask, hopper or gun, same with the people I shoot, because unless you hit them on the run, those are the practically only areas they expose(if their any good). It would be stupid not to make them count IMO. Just encourage blind shooting all the more, and just wouldn't make since.

Trunnion

03-15-2002, 10:16 AM

when we play rec ball in the woods, we play straight elimination. one team defends, the other attacks them. the team with players left at the end of the game wins. simple as that. it cannot be said in any way that this is not a war-like situation. it's quite similar to a search and destroy type mission. why do we play this way? quite simply we don't have the man power or the money to set up other methods, like speedball fields and the like. paintball is used in ROTC here at school as a training aid to teach people to work and react as a team, to fight as a unit. yes, the rules are obviously different than if the weapons were real firearms. but the fact of the matter is that paintball is about as close as you can get to a war similation in everyday life. i know most speedballers and tourny players and the like prefer to eliminate this war-like image, but it's just not possible. every person that i currently play with in my town got into paintball the same way i did. we all play speedball now, and it's a fun game, but we all prefer the woods. you can be as politically correct as you want. you can dissociate speedball and tournies from woodsball and scenario games if you wish, try to promote them as entirely different sports. but the war-like image will never go away

cphilip

03-15-2002, 10:17 AM

I thought this was a pretty decent article from a paintball site written from a pro paintball point of view. But again its one persons opinion on what it is or isn't and his arguments for his stance...

PAINTBALL ISN'T MOCK WAR, NOR IS IT A METAPHOR FOR WAR
At first glance it may not seem this way because some scenario games revolving around historic battles and campaigns are popular. This is not the industry's or players' way of glorifying war. It is simply playing "make believe." Many of the organizers of these events use the scenario to proclaim the gallantry shown by our fighting men and women. No one who plays paintball would relish going to war. Other than the combat veteran, the paintballer knows how quickly luck can run out when projectiles start flying. If anything, paintball gives players a sense of their own vulnerability and mortality.

PAINTBALL ISN'T BAD FOR KIDS
Provided the safety equipment fits them properly, there is no reason people under the "legal age of consent" shouldn't play paintball - with parental permission, of course. In fact, paintball just may teach kids some important life skills. Winning doesn't matter, race/creed/age/religion/size doesn't matter. Respect for authority, safety, and determined effort brings reward. Best of all, it teaches them to see a loss not as failure, but as a learning experience. TEAMWORK is essential.

PAINTBALL ISN'T DANGEROUS
The safety equipment is designed to withstand multiple impacts from paintballs that are travelling far above the industry safe standard. (In other words they hold up over and above the "worst case scenario" like all safety equipment should.) Few people have been injured playing paintball. Accident statistics show that paintball has fewer injuries than bowling.

PAINTBALL ISN'T TRAINING PEOPLE FOR THE OVERTHROW OF THE GOVERNMENT
We're not a bunch of paramilitary commandos. We are not using paintball to train ourselves in military tactics. In fact, military tactics don't seem to work in paintball. The reason is that military tactics require a highly disciplined group of people, and that's not paintballers. We are a large collection of fierce individualists, and we don't take orders very well.

PAINTBALL ISN'T TRAINING PEOPLE TO KILL, NOR DOES IT MAKE PEOPLE "GET USED TO" SHOOTING SOMEONE
It's only a game. Shooting someone is more representative of a tag. Besides, paintball is the ONLY team sport where you can LEGALLY eliminate your opponent from play. And best of all: no one gets hurt. We don't want to sugar-coat it: some players do refer to eliminations as "kills", but that's just an expression. Paintballers are NOT actually thinking, "I'm killing this guy," when they shoot somebody. They're more likely thinking, "Aha! One step close to that flag!"

PAINTBALL DOESN'T PROMOTE VIOLENT TENDENCIES IN PEOPLE
It is a safe and healthy way to blow-off some of the everyday tensions in life. Most likely players have absolutely no tendencies towards anything after a day of paintball other than tendencies towards a hot bath and a soft bed.

PAINTBALL ISN'T TEACHING PEOPLE HOW TO USE FIREARMS
Yes, paintball markers share the same basic features as firearms. Both markers and firearms have triggers, grips, barrels, sears, bolts, hammers, and sights. However people can't learn how to use real firearms by using paintmarkers (no more than you can about a computer by using a pocket calculator).

borrowed from www.f4og.com

Vex

03-15-2002, 03:33 PM

Believe it or not, this thread was actually started for AOers to state their opinions on whether gun/hopper hits should count during games. I know what the title of the thread is--I put it there. Now, I'm not trying to ban or outlaw them--I just wanted to know how everyone else feels about them. I've stated my opinons on the subject. I think that the whole "war game" scenario should be dealt with in a different thread. In fact, I'll start one. :D

cphillip: The standoff that you refer to took place at Kent State University, in Ohio. 4 student protesters were killed by National Guardsmen. I'm not going to get into another whole argument on that topic either. It's been 30 years since that event took place. I've read testimonials from both students and the guardsmen who were there that day, and I can honestly say that I feel bad for those guardsmen. They were put in a very difficult situation and responded violently AFTER they had been attacked and their lives were threatened. So in the words of Forrest Gump, "That's all I got to say about that."

:D

Eagle

03-15-2002, 03:36 PM

I agree, no gun hits

Panzerr

03-15-2002, 06:23 PM

What, so you want people to be able to just stick their markers above their Sup'Air bunkers and spray without being able to shoot them out? That's rediculous.

FooTemps

03-15-2002, 06:28 PM

A hit is a hit... We can't change that. If you don't want hopper hits, take away the hopper.... if you don't want gun hits then take away the gun... see what happens? You don't play!
Places play hopper hits for the sake of fairness whether you agree or not. Cheaters would take advantage of the "no hopper shots" rule... They'd make their hoppers and guns into shields.

HoppysMag

03-15-2002, 06:31 PM

you asked our opinion. and your upset it doesnt match yours.

FooTemps

03-15-2002, 06:36 PM

huh? Are you talking to me or someone else? That's been my opinion from the start... I just decided to be more blunt about it to get more of a reaction...

HoppysMag

03-15-2002, 06:44 PM

no im talkin to phazershifter

Vex

03-15-2002, 07:05 PM

When did I ever state that I was upset that your opinions don't match mine?

Quit trying to psychoanalyze me. If you can grasp the concept of reading and understanding what someone else has written, then this thread would go a lot smoother.

All I've stated that has pissed you off is that I'll argue that someone can not, 100% of the time, with complete accuracy, aim for and hit hoppers and guns every single game. You've obviously taken offense to this statement, and I don't know why.

FooTemps:
Who can hide behind their gun or hopper and use it as a shield? If that were the case, then why not outlaw bunkers? You wouldn't need them if you were allowed to hide behind your marker and your hopper.

:D

bofh

03-15-2002, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by cphilip
HoppysMag, correct and a lot of people tear gassed. They called them all to a meeting in a square. Police and Nat Guard let them in but refused to let them back out. Once they ahd them all in there they gassed them with grenades and Helicopters. I am not sure the death toll. You might be right. I just put that in to break the tension a little. For some reason it came to mind.

For the benefit of everyone, I'll explain what "People's Park" is. It's a ratty little square of sand and trees, by Telegraph Street. In 1969, unreleted to Vietnam, the University of California, in Berkely, wanted to build a parking lot on the lot. Hippies (a word reserved for people who weren't aligned with the University at the time), protested the eviction of the homeless which lived there. The National Guard was called in, and 128 protesters were wounded and one bystander was shot dead.

Cphillip was not using the Kent State riot as example. Which was Vietnam related. And left Four protesters shot dead. (sing it with me...."Four dead in O-HI-O")

More recently, People's Park had another riot, in 1991. Over the building of volleyball courts. The were torn down in 1996. More info, and nice pictures here http://www.peoplespark.org/