I talked my "COCKER" buddy into buying a SFL. He's not happy!

[luke]

My partner has used a cocker from the first day he played paintball, he's played for around 5 years. I've been teasing him all along about the problems he had with it, (cocker) and finally talked him into buying a Mag. He received his brand spanking new SFL on Friday, we played Saturday. Sad to say the SFL SHREDDED all day long! We tried all the obvious, 2 kinds of paint, ( both less than 2 weeks old ) a Revy and my new HALO, ( which BTW rocked on my vert feed Micro :) ) both had new batteries, tried 3 different barrels, adjusted fire rate, shot manual and electro. etc., etc., etc.,. The paint oozed and flowed out the end of the barrel all day long, it broke paint when firing single shots or long strings. Our first impression was that the paint was breaking in the barrel, but further investigation revealed most of it was in the breach. We didn't notice it at first because the color of the paint was camouflaged by the black bolt. Needless to say he wasn't a happy camper, the mumbling under his breath was "I knew I should have bought a new cocker". By the end of the day, all I could do was try to reassure him it could be fixed, but first impressions are hard to shake. I think we both went home with our tails between our legs.

Although any ideas would be helpful, this post was not intended for tech info. I'm trying to get him to join the forum, to get tech help himself. Also, don't take this thread as a slam on the SFL, it's anything but that.

[Load SM5]

What kind of paint were you shooting?
Was it really cold?
Did you try backing out the ball detent a bit?

[luke]

The weather was a little cool, ( two T-shirts kinda cool ) we live in Az. so cold is relative. We didn't do much more than what I stated as far adjustments go, what we did try pretty much took the whole day. Although I did check the detent to make sure it wasn't double feeding. I know he tried Marbs, but I'm not sure what the other paint was. I shot Marbs all day in my Micro with two breaks. This paint is almost a year old. Also, no one else complained of paint problems, so I'm inclined to think it wasn't the paint, but not certain.

[cphilip]

Well... lets get him on here and fix this thing. Need all the specifics.

Did you try test fitting a multitude of balls down the barrel? What was the consistency fo this barrel to the ball fit? Does anyone else have another barrel to swap out and try on this SFL? Did you drop test any of this paint? Or can you still do that?

It's got a superbolt in right? All in good shape no burrs? Feel em and see. Foamie is on?

Can you take the valve out and look down the breach and see if there is any missalignment of the barrel to the body or anything?

Feed tube type? Feel for any burrs there too?


After we can check all of this we will analize it all and....ask Black, Tom or Rob! ;) They can fix it.

[luke]

I'm trying to get him to join AO, I actually have since I joined. I did check the tech forum and it looks like he didn't post yet. I don't think he knows how beneficial it can be. I'll most likely talk to him tonight about getting his butt on line here to get this figured out. As far as paint to barrel match, we went from a snug fit to rolling threw the barrel with no resistance. The rest of what you suggested will come, but like I said we never got that far.

[luke]

That was also a thought while at the field. I questioned him if he received any foamies with the gun, he said no. I was pretty sure that it was necessary with the superbolt.

[Load SM5]

When I mentioned the detent, I meant, was it in too far. Mine was when I first got it and I backed it out a bit. It helped with ball breakage a bit.

You definately need a foamie of some kind. I made one out of foam rubber used some 2 part epoxy to hold it on. It works great. Call AGD and get them to send you guys some.

[cphilip]

Correct me if I am wrong (know you will!) but doesn't the SFL not use a detante? Well at least not the same as the EMag one? How is the ball held in there anyway? I am not up on the SFL's myself at all. Hope to be some day!

[Kaiser Bob]

If I remember correctly, the SFL uses a ball detent positioned in the removable breech.

[cphilip]

Ahhh...well then...check that too!

No seriously we need to get more info here. We gotta keep aftger these SFL's till all the bugs are worked out cause I want one...THEN. ;)

[luke]

LoadSM5,

"When I mentioned the detent, I meant, was it in too far. Mine was when I first got it and I backed it out a bit. It helped with ball breakage a bit. "
I'm with you bro, we just haven't got very far into this.

Keep the info coming though. I just e-mailed the link to this thread to him. He won't see it until this evening.

Me, I gotta get back to work. I'll check in later.

Thanks..............

[luke]

Just wanted to remind everyone that he's currently not a member, and isn't aware of much of what goes on around here, tests and current problems surrounding the superbolts etc. So we need to be very specific when helping him out, remember he's only been a Mag owner for 4 days, as of today.

Thanks in advance......

luke

[Hysperion]

well i think i know his problem....the sfl breaks alot of paint when it's cold! it's obvious everyone is having this problem....i broke like crazy outdoors yesterday and when I play indoors I never have a problem.......good thing I play mostly indoors and have a dark ir3 on the way for out.....

*was just looking at the other bag left from the case I used yesterday and it has 1-2 dimples per ball with soft spots, it was breaking down the barrel and only about 15 deg. out so that explains that*

[Thordic]

My teammate, spacemanspiff, had a LOT of problems with his SFL breaking paint when he got it. The problem was the superbolt. He juryrigged a foamie onto it, and it helped quite a bit.

Check the bolt.

[soilent green]

my bet is the detent or the super bolt if its the old one then it could be to long or the newer ones have the fomies make sure it has one on their I know the sfl bolt is a little different but is your micro bolt will work try it

[2000Sabre]

I been having an email conversation with Brian Terry regarding this subject. Brian recommended to me that I use the old SS foamie style bolt. That's what he's been using in his SFL and has not experienced the ball breakage problems the rest of us are having. He also mentioned that he was going to speak with Jon on this very subject. Although I tried to order one they are currently out of stock.

I played in a tourney yesterday, and I did not have a whole lot of luck with my SFL. Very inconsistent. Sometimes I would play a game and have one or 2 breaks, then go to the chroney and couldn't get a ball out of the barrel without it breaking. From what I read and observed in the forum, if you're using the SFL you need a foamy style bolt. It just dosen't seem to work well without one. However, I'm not sure this is the only thing it needs.

My setup and conditions yesterday were, 40 - 45 degrees, 32 degrees Team Color paint, Freak barrel system with .693 insert and AA front, Long nose SS RT bolt, Warp and Halo. I have also run my SFL with a 14" DYE boomstick barrel with similar results.

I'm not sure about how others who have purchased the SFL feel, but I'm very dissapointed in the performance of mine. I'm waiting paiently for Tom to make the ACE available and some of the other goodies but it's hard to see other guys using other markers without these kinds of problems. It really makes me think if I've made the right decision. I love AGD and I love the feel and trigger of the SFL but if it can't shoot reliable it isn't much good. I'm willing to buy a new bolt or whatever it takes to make this work but I really want a solid answer from AGD what the problem is.

If they tell me it's wait for the design changes so be it but please tell me when I can get them because right now I have a very expensive paint blender.

[luke]

We can run a standard bolt??

I'm surprised it came standard with the super bolt, seems to me all the bugs aren't work out yet.

[than205]

did anyone pick up that he said the paint was almost a year old? I dunno, it seems old to me. Maybe, I'm wrong...

[cphilip]

OK lets get something straight here. Saul is the EMAG guy so you need to be talking to him not Jon is my understanding.

Yes I agree there needs to be some resolution to this. I mean you few SFL guys are indeed the Guinea Pigs here and I respect you for that. And I am certain it will be resolved in due time. Please, for all the rest of us waiting to upgrade, hang in there. Tom will be back, I think today if not tomorrow, and can start resolving some of these issues for you.

I am attempting to get a message to Saul to check in here if he can about this. Hang in there for a bit.

[2000Sabre]

The SFL comes standard with the Superbolt. However, my Superbolt broke the first day out. Tom K suggested using the stock longnose RT bolt because of the problems with the Superbolt and the fact that Superbolts with the eventual modifications were'nt available at the time this occured.

[brian terry]

guy"s i played this past saturday it was around 40 and raining ,i did not break 1 ball all day i shot 1 case of paint,and on the fomey bolt yes you need it ,and yes i use the standerd ss fomey bolt,i have the ace in my sfl ,you guys and girls with the sfl get the ace asap ,but even befor i had it, i dident have the brakeing prob you all are haveing ,if any of you are comeing to the ult madness in huntington on april 5 6 7th bring your gun to the airgun booth and ill get it shooting right for you even if i have to buy you the fomey bolt my self,.,./

[MrAirgunRT]

Yeah Brian's speaking the word here, he rarely ever breaks paint, no matter how fast he is shooting. His gun never has any other problems either.

[Eric_AGD]

Luke,

As far as I know, none of the new SFL's have been updated to the foamie style superbolt. They were all made up before we started having troubles with the superbolts, and I have not seen any of them in for updates. I recommend he sends in the bolt, and we will put a foamie on it. Your buddy can use a regular automag stainless steel bolt in the SFL while his superbolt is being updated.

I have also heard of some problems with the ball detent that is in the removable breech. Try backing out the ball detent 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn. It would be best if you took it all the way out, then put an oring around the threads, and screw it back in so that it is tight on the oring. This will keep it from unscrewing by itself.

You stated that you tried many barrels. There was one type of barrel (I can not remember whose) that does not fit into the counter bore on the feed module. Unscrew the barrel, take out the feed module, and make sure the barrel fits into the counterbore. This counterbore aligns the bolt, feed chamber, and barrel. Make sure the barrel is tight when firing the gun also.

This is all that I can think of right off the top of my head. If I think of anything else to try, I will let you know.

Eric

[kilaueakid]

I originally had the problems barrel breaks with my sfl. Some mods were done a couple times and now it hasn't broke a ball in a long, long time. I think the problem people are having with the original superbolt(sfl stock) is the fact that it is larger in diameter and it is putting a stree fracture in the the next ball in the stack. When that next ball goes into the breach and is hit with 60 psi of air...you get a barrel break. The slower bolt speed mods should completely eliminate this problem. You can also try using a smaller diameter bolt. I have a few different superbolts and a AGD foamie.I use my freak insersts to check the diameter of them. Some fit in the .689, one fit's in the .684 and the SFL super bolt won't even fit in the .695 insert.

Try this, see if you are still breaking when feeding the balls in 1 at a time. This should help eliminate some variables. If it shoots fine one at a time and never breaks, than more than likely it has something to do with your bolt speed or bolt diameter.

Back to when I first had problems, I noticed they were breaking right where the barrel met the breach. I could see the wear from the bolt stopped a bit before the junction of the breach/barrel,so Ihadmy breach milled in further so the barrel sat closer to the ball detents. DONT ANYONE GO HAVE THIS DONE to your breach as you will need that space if they decide to go with the longer bolt stroke.

I know it can be very frusterating everyone, but with a little patience, I'm sure TK and AGD will make it right for everyone.

If anyone wants more details, feel free to send me an email or pm. kilaueakid@hotmail.com

kila

[kilaueakid]

It is a cocker freak back that does not fit the breach module...at least some of them. Somewhere along the line, Smart Parts changed the size of there barrel OD.

It fit's in my breach, I had the counter bore enlarged a couple thousands.

kila

[Hysperion]

I CANT STRESS THIS ENOUGH. THE SUPERBOLT IS CRAP IN THE SFL! Pick up a AGD Longnose foamie or foamieless. Even when the ACE was put in my gun I still had alot of balls breaking in the breach. Luckily, my superbolt broke on me so I was forced to switch to a Longnose, I haven't had any problems since except with fragile paint in cold weather. When I play indoors I never chop or break one ball in a whole case most of the time. I have the ACE and it's great when you remember to turn it on but just by switching to the stainless bolt you will solve more problems then the ACE ever could.

[kilaueakid]

Ok Here are some more hint's to see weather or not you have severe ball bobble which is what happens when the 2nd ball in the stack is "nicked", "pinched", "hit", by the bolt on it's forward movement.

1. Remove your hopper from your SFL or any gun for that matter. Place 3-5 however many will fit in the feedneck without hopper on. Next, fire gun. Does 1 or 2 balls pop up and out of the feed neck?? Many people associate this with blowback, which is not always the case. It is ball bobble. If that 1 or 2 balls is flying up and out, that means the bolt is smacking the next ball in the stack.

Now picture this happening with 6-8 balls in a feedneck/loader neck, and the pressure being forced back down by the hopper and weight of more paintballs, making it next to impossible for the balls to move back upwards when the bolt hits #2 in the stack, especially with a HALO. This will put a stress fracture in the ball ready to go into the breach. Having a slower bolt speed will help this as the bolt now hits the next ball in the stack at a slower feet per second.

Now as for the superbolt.....I would not say they are crap, because all three of mine have been working awesome. As a matter of fact, with the superbolt for a regular mag(smaller id) I don't have any ball bobble. Meaning the next ball in the stack is barely rubbing against the bolt when it travels forward. I put a piece of paper over the feedneck when fireing and it stays there....no blowback. Even my superbolt with o-ring/ rounded tip works great.

In a perfect world, all paint would be the same size so that bolts and breaches could be made to almost never hit the next ball in the stack.

What is next, a Freak type system for bolts and breaches? Possibly an adjustable diameter bolt sleeve? How about a bolt tip that expands and seals off the breach when air is released, meaning it could be made smaller so that the next ball is never touched??

To be honest, I think there is a huge difference in the way the gun feels with a sb verses a regular steel bolt. Maybe it isn't that big of a deal, but it certainly feels smoother. Maybe the new design with slower bolt speed reduces recoil in itself with the steel bolt, so it would be like having the superbolt in a current setup?? Something we will all know in due time.

[AGD]

Guys,

If the ball breakage is really down the barrel then it is most likely from high bolt speed. The light weight superbolt is faster than the standard bolt so it causes more problems. We are still researching the issue. I will have a complete report when we are finished.

AGD

[Tunaman]

Originally posted by Thordic
My teammate, spacemanspiff, had a LOT of problems with his SFL breaking paint when he got it. The problem was the superbolt. He juryrigged a foamie onto it, and it helped quite a bit.

Check the bolt. Hey! That was no juryrig...That was a custom Tunamod!:D

[hitech]

Originally posted by 2000Sabre
... it's hard to see other guys using other markers without these kinds of poblems.

A friend of mine was having the same feelings about his new angel. That said, the super bolt is harder on brittle paint because of the faster bolt speed. A SS bolt would probably help.

[luke]

Thanks for all the input. We will bring everyone up to date on our findings here:

http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29432