Problem Chopping new SFL Help! Lukes Friend and a new member

[E-SFL]

I am luke's friend the cocker guy that just bought my new mag. I was so excited that I stood up late with my wife watching the video and reading the owner's manual. I charged the battery for the gun in my car all night so I could play with it the next day. Woke up early the next morning I went to my father in laws house to show him, even he was excited. When I returned home I packed up everything and went to Luke's when I got there he was working on his mags I laughed and said he just needs to quit using junk. Then we went to the field and it began, the gun chopped wether or not I was single shooting or putting out a stream of paint. When we returned to the stagging area we tried everything paint, barrels, firing rate, trigger, and it seemed to me like I bought an expensive blender I was very disapointed I still love the gun but hate the problems Luke reassured me that you guys would not leave me hanging (AGD)He speaks very highly of the company and the products and I trust him and AGD.

[FooTemps]

Have you tried calling AGD yet? I think that someone there might be able to help you out.

[Load SM5]

Hey, welcome to AO and be assured, you did not purchase junk. I also own an SFL and with, the exception of one day when the weather was below freezing, I've never had breaking issues.

The first thing you should do is get a foamie on that bolt. That could solve a great deal of you problems. Call AGD and get them to send you some.

You may also want to back out your detent some. That helped me when I first got mine.

There's a thread already going on your problem with a few good suggestions. Check that out and be a little patient. AGD has a few good plans for the new E-mags that will be free to us SFL owners that will solve all of our problems.

[xmetal2001]

Heres what you friend posted for you:

Lukes Thread (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29351)

[hitech]

Is it chopping (is there paint in the feed tube) or breaking paint in the barrel (no paint in the feed tube)? Chopping is a feed issue. Breaking in the barrel is a brittle paint, etc. problem.

[Panzerr]

Wow, your wife watched the entire video with you? What a woman!

[Hysperion]

Congrats on your purchase of the sfl :).....I guess I'm qualified to talk to you because I've had some problems with mine and AGD is always really helpful with fixing them (unlike wdp who has charged my friend $300 to fix a 5-month old angel fly-2 with 3k shots on it...) The first thing I would do is ditch the SuperBolt; it's crap. Put in the standard AGD Longnose foamieless and you'll solve alot of breaking problems. Second, if your gun doesn't have the Anti-Chop-Eye yet and it's giving you problems, call up AGD and ask them to install it. I never chop except when I forget to turn the ACE on :).......I know how bad it is to get a gun and for it to not work right away. My sfl wouldn't shoot in e or hybrid mode after 100 shots, I think the board fried, but I sent it in to AGD and they fixed it and installed the ACE, now I have virtually no problems except my halo jamming :).....I guarantee once you get it working right you will love it and you will never go back to that slide trigger crap on the cocker :).....I was 10x more excited about getting my sfl then I am about my dark ir3 I have preordered :) Good luck, you're not gonna need it because AGD will solve your problem.....

[AGD]

E-SFL,

My name is Tom Kaye and I am the president of the company. As you can see by coming to AO you get the advantage of a direct pipeline to the top.

First of all I want to appologize for your bad experience on your first day out. I would have been frustrated too.

Since you are describing a cronic problem I actually feel encouraged about it. If you were breaking 1 in 1000 balls it would be a much harder problem to track down. Since you ar shredding most of them there must be a simple answer.

If there is no paint up the feed tube then you are not chopping but breaking down the barrel. If there is paint in the feed tube then you are most likely double feeding and need to check the detent and the size of the paint.

Try loading one ball at a time in the feed tube and firing it. If they all come out all right then it is one of two things. Either you are double feeding or the bolt is nicking the ball waiting and cracking it. This causes the cracked ball to blow up in the barrel (sometimes).

Please read the tech tip on the bounce test so you know how to test your paint. Paint gets more brittle when it's cold and this can be a big source of problems. Your cocker is always going to be friendlier on paint at the expense of firing rate.

Please find the answers to these questions and report back here.

AGD

[Panzerr]

Is there a ring of paint around the edge of the barrel in the breech? A fellow AOer I meet this past weekend had a similar problem with his SFL. The breech wasn't out enough for the barrel. He said it was a simple fix-AGD just milled out the breech a little bit and bingo, no more problems. If your barrel twists in to lock the breech with only on or two twists, this may be the problem.

[luke]

Hey Bro, welcome aboard. (FINALLY)

Just want to say thanks to Tom and the rest of you guys for jumping right on this to help him (us) out.

So far the gun has been checked for "obvious" manufacture defects, such as nicks and burrs, misalignment of barrel to breach, & paint to barrel match checked out fine.

This evening we will check out the rest of what has been suggested. We will do a paint drop test, check out ball bobble/ pinching. So far I've have seen broken paint in the feed tube, breach, and down the barrel paint, but several times it was all three at once because he just continued to shoot after the first break. So, we will try and isolate that problem. I have standard and the longnose bolt so we will try those also. I believe the last suggestion was double feeding, or perhaps detent too tight. I also have a Warp to hook up to address any feed rate issues. (if necessary)

Please let me know if I missed something we should check.

He will have some results to post this evening or I will pick it up tomorrow morning.

So far you guys have given E-SFL a great welcome, I wish it were under different circumstances, but that's the way it happens sometimes. At least he will learn right from the beginning who's got his back. Hopefully we can convince him it was money well spent. ;)

Again, thanks everyone

Luke

[kilaueakid]

Hey Panzer...what's up?

Just to make a correction....AGD did not mill my breach...that was something I had done.

That did seem to fix my problem, however, as I stated in another post. DO NOT HAVE THIS DONE to your breach at this time!! The space may be needed for a longer stroke of the bolt. I now have a spacer in there that replaces the material I had removed.

More info on this will come later.


kila

[311automag]

what does sfl stand for? i hear you guys talking about this gun all the time. thanks.

[[FE]Memnock]

It stands for "Super <i>*explenitive*</i> Light". It's a sub-series of light custom markers made by Shocktech.

http://www.buyshocktech.com

<i>"Combining the design and machining skills of Danny Love with the technology and experience of Airgun Designs, Shocktech is proud to introduce its latest in the SFL series. The new SFL E-Mag utilizes a one piece aluminum body with vertical feed. The E-Mag uses a threaded barrel (it now accepts you cocker barrels) to reduce barrel vibration and increase accuracy. Also new on our SFL E-Mag is the ultra smooth and light weight Delrin Bolt. This electronic guns trigger can be switched from electronic, hybrid or manual, allowing your gun to work even if the battery dies mid-game. The Shocktech E-Mag includes the other features of a standard version, but has been machined throughout to reduce weight and size.Shown with optional Dye Barrel."</i>
-Quoted from the Shocktech Website-

-Mem

[Temo Vryce]

SFL E-mag is made by Shocktech. AGD supplies them with the base E-Mag and body and they Mill and anno it. You might have to ask them what the SFL stands for. I hope this help you out. If I'm wrong I'm sorry for opening my big mouth. :D

[Panzerr]

Kila-thanks for letting me shoot your SFL. Angel Dave and I are totally sold on the E-Mag. The trigger is just too sweet. grrr

[cphilip]

Welcome to AO E-SFL! We are going to see what we can do. Rest assured it is fixable and AGD will work with you on it. You are going to be asked a lot of questions untill we can find the single or multiple flaws in the feed system or bolt issues. We know they can and do run fine once the issue or issues is resolved. We are concentrating on the bolt right now. Have you read the other thread on some things to try yet?

Hang in there. We will get to the bottom of this mess.

I changed your title to draw better attention to the thread.

[cphilip]

Up...for the late afternoon early evening crowd...

[Temo Vryce]

Let's bump this up so we can get this guys mag working for him so that he can convert more cocker owners. :rolleyes: :D

[E-SFL]

Well we went through alot of the gun, the best the gun shot was with the long nose bolt. I was shooting marbalizers but the paint did not pass the bounce test. Avg was 3 bounces, we did not have any fresh paint. I should get a shipment of paint tomorrow. We tried adjusting the ball detent to check for double feeding, we put two balls in the feed tube, shot the gun and the top ball would bounce out. Most of the paint we had breaking broke in the barrel not on the bolt. On the barrel to breech match, we looked through the breech at the barrel and noticed that the breech was actually a little wider than the barrel. Barrels that were used were Dye boomstick, Taso Pro Series, Armson Rifled, they all measured the same which led me to believe that the breech was bored out to much and that the paint was hitting the barrel and breaking. I would like the ACE installed in my gun, are there any available? Any questions just ask and I will try to answer them to the best of my knowledge. Thank You!

[FooTemps]

Ace isn't available yet... You'll get a free ACE for an SFL when AGD releases it.

[cphilip]

Bringing this one up for the day.

[luke]

We did some testing last night. I think we narrowed it some but until we get some decent paint we won't know for sure what's up. Here's what we found.

Bounce Test's in in 70 degree weather...

Test #1
Paint E-SFL shot last weekend. (Marbs.) New Paint :(
Bounces
1) 13 * High
2) 2
3) 2
4) 2
5) 5
6) 1
7) 2
8) 1 * Low
9) 1
10) 11
Average = 3.25

Bounce Test #2
RP-Lighting - Did not use this in any other testing. This was also new paint! :(
1) 1 * Low
2) 1
3) 1
4) 4
5) 5 * High
6) 2
7) 1
8) 4
9) 1
10) 1
Average = 2

Bounce Test #3
This Paint is a almost a year old. I shot this last weekend in my Micro Vert Feed w/MiniMag Valve. I had 2 breaks in 1/2 case. (Marbs..)
Bounces
1) 1 * Low
2) 1
3) 3
4) 5
5) 8
6) 1
7) 5
8) 16 * High
9) 3
10) 7
Average = 4.125

The paint used in Test #3 was used to do the rest of the test's.

* Single shot loaded 1 at a time.
Loaded 20
Broke 0

* Loaded feed tube with 3 balls.
Fired 1 shot, top ball bounced out of the feed neck.
Fired again, ( 2 balls in feed neck ) # 2 ball in feed neck was pushed up about where #3 ball would set IF it were loaded.
Fired last ball ( no other balls loaded ) Broke ball in barrel.

NOTE: We considered breaks to be "barrel breaks" even if the bolt had paint on it. Would this be correct?

* Next we loaded a Revy (New Batteries) with Test paint #3 and fired a string of paint approximately 20 shots. Broke paint in barrel. Cleaned the gun up, and did the same test ( 4 times total ) results were somewhat identical as the first.

* Based on what was posted by Load SM5, we tried backing the detent out just a little bit. The detent was set approximately 1/4 turn from bottoming out when the gun was received from ST.
Approximately 10-15 shots - paint exploded up feed neck and into hopper to gun adapter.... Detent returned to factory setting.

* Next we installed a SS "short" nose bolt.
Shot a string of paint and it seemed to be a little bit better than the same test we did with the superbolt, but basically the same results. We can't be sure of the numbers
because we don't have the equipment to count the shots fired. But again, it was a noticeable improvement, but not much. We did this test 4 times with the same results
each time. After each break we found paint found in the barrel, on the bolt, and a very SMALL amount in guns feed neck, but, not in the hopper to gun adapter.

* Next we installed the "long" nose bolt.
This test yielded similar improvements as the short nose bolt did to the superbolt. But, we were still breaking an unacceptable amount of paint, probably 1 in 35-40
balls. ( Just a guess based on how much paint I was loading in the hopper.) Again, after each break we found paint found in the barrel, on the bolt, and a very SMALL
amount in guns feed neck, but, not in the hopper to gun adapter.

* This is where we stopped. I wasn't to sure what to do with the data at this point. I would assume that a paint that rated higher in the bounce test would improve the
numbers, but that's a no brainer. We still have problems if 4-6 bounce is considered good and we are breaking 1 in 35 ( another guess ) with paint that rated 3-4
bounce.

I'm going to leave it here for now, I'm not sure what to do next. We could use some input. I apologize if the if my writing is hard to follow, let me know if I need to
reiterate anything.

Luke

[luke]

Done - cphilip

[2000Sabre]

Can you get a hold of a SS foamy style bolt? If you can, try the test again and see if it improves the results. I spoke with Jon at AGD yesterday because of similar problems with my SFL and that was his recommendation. This same recommendation was also posted in your earlier thread. Problem is AGD is out of stock on this bolt so you have to source it somewhere else or wait till they're back in stock at AGD. I hope to run the same tests you did on my SFL and will post my results. LOL

[cphilip]

I wanna know if the thing has any Burrs, rough or missaligned parts when you look and feel down the body. Need to tear it all down to the body to examine that look with the barrel in as well.

[hitech]

Is the front edge of the bolt sharp? If so, it could be fracturing the second paintball in the feed stack and breaking it when it is fired. You can use a small file to take the edge off.

[luke]

2000Sabre,

You can't just glue a foamie to a standard SS bolt?
I ordered some stuff from AGD last week, they sent me someone else's order by mistake, there were foamies in it, I shouldn't have sent them back. ;)

cphilip,

Thanks.
Every thing you suggested checked out best we can tell.

hitech,

We tried two different bolts out of my two Mags, still breaking paint. They work fine in my guns.

[luke]

Should we be having this kind of trouble with paint that bounce tested at 3-4?

[hitech]

Is the SFL a vertical feed? I think those have more of a problem with sharp edged bolts.

3-4 bounce paint should be fine IMO (I'm never humble).

[hitech]

Also, I'm sure Tom will get back to you. He just got back from a 12 day road trip and is taking a few days off.

[Dubstar112]

E-SFL, you mentioned the breech was over bored, maybe somone could give you measure ments to double check this idea. It seems to me that this could definatley do it.

[2000Sabre]

Luke,

I'm not sure if you can just glue a foamie onto the standard SS bolt or not. From the conversations I've had there's seems to be specific AGD part number for the SS foamie bolt. Try calling AGD to see if this would work. My preference would be to get the bolt specifically designed by AGD rather than make my own. Maybe BlackVCG can get them through PEV's rather than wait on AGD.

[BlackVCG]

Foamieless bolts are just that. Putting a foamie on the end will cause feeding issues. You'd be best off sending the SFL to AGD and having them look at it.

Also, I don't work at Pevs if that's what you were implying Sabre. It's RobAGD that works there.

[2000Sabre]

Sorry Black. I was thinking it was you that worked there. Thanks for straightening me out. When I talked to Jon yesterday he said he didn't think there was much he could do right now so I'm not sure if sending it back to AGD is going to accomplish anything. He did give me an RA so if I want to send my SFL back I can. He did suggest trying the foamie style bolt before doing that however.

Maybe time for Tom K himself to post an update to this thread. I don't think there's much more any of us can do? If we can't get a foamie style bolt to try and the ACE and other modifications aren't available yet, what else is left?

[luke]

Dubstar112,
What E-SFL meant was, that if you remove the breach, stick the barrel in it's slot then site down threw it, the inside diameter of the barrel is "SLIGHTLY" smaller than the breach. I tried two of my barrels and they had a better fit, but didn't improve the performance any.


BlackVCG,
Thanks for the info on the bolt.

[luke]

hitech

Yes it is a Vertical feed.

[2000Sabre]

Luke,

I PM'd RobAGD. He thinks he has a couple of foamie style bolts in stock. I will call him this afternoon to see if he has them. If your interested in picking one up to see if it performs better in your friend's SFL let me know.

[Hysperion]

I wouldn't doubt it's the paint you are using....whenever I play during the cold or with old paint I always break with my sfl...try shooting it at an indoor place and see if it works better....i have the ACE and all my breaks are down the barrel....

[2000Sabre]

<B>Hysperion -</B>I've played indoors during the winter, seeing how I live in the NE and it doesn't seem to matter with my SFL. Using the field only Proball paint, I still break a lot more paint than I think I should. Of the several times I've used my SFL, I've only had one day where I didn't happen to break a lot of paint. It did happen to be indoors. I think it's not using a foamie style bolt that's the problem. Besides, there are going to be times when you have to play outdoors,it's cold and your stuck with marginal quality paint. A $1500 marker that won't work outdoors when its below a certain temp and can't handle brittle paint isn't much good. I would expect AGD to fix the problem so it's products perform on par with other high quality markers.

<B>Luke - </B>Call Rob at Pev's (703)273-7732 He has foamie style bolts in stock if you want to try one to see if it improves your friend's SFL paint problem. Just ordered mine and will report back the results.

[luke]

2000Sabre,

Thanks for the information.

After spending that kind of money it seems like the bolt should be free. ;)

[hitech]

Although it sounds like you are having problems with the paint breaking in the barrel have you tried setting the max fire rate at 8 or so and see if it has any effect? If it does then it would seem to be a feeding issue. Easy enough to try, right?

[luke]

hitech,

I think he has taken it down to around 10. I know he was messing around with the setting, but don't know for sure how low he went. (?)

[hitech]

I was thinking something more like 8 because that should eliminate feeding problems. 7 might be even better. Have you checked for a sharp "leading" edge on the bolt? It's easy enough to check and fix if that's it. :)

[E-SFL]

Sorry Ive been a ghost I have been a little busy, my gun still chops paint even 8 and 9 bounce paint it chops a little less but not that much, even with the fire rate down to 8. I have been really frustrated with my gun and the way it performs. I would like to send it to Air Gun Designs and have them check it out for me, even tom kay himself. I would like to thank him for responding to my thread and helping out. My wife got a kick out of his comment Tom Kay President (really). thank you Air Gun Designs.

[BlackVCG]

Send it to AGD with the barrel you're using and let them check it out. Eric (AGD Engineer) or Tom will probably look over it.

[E-SFL]

I showed my Friend Luke and he agrees with me, the vertical part of the breech is pressed in, the pressed part seems to be sticking out and is kinda rough. It could be causing the paint to break we already ruled out the barrels, paint, bolt. I was wondering if I should grind it out myself or have a machinist hone it are do nothing at all and send it to AGD.

[than205]

2000Sabre,
Not to flame you buddy. But I doubt there is a marker that will meet the criteria you mention. Paint that is possibly a year and a half old. and to boot it's cold out?
besides that, $1500? wow, thats a chunk o change. hmmm....

[BlackVCG]

E-SFL

You can void your warranty and have someone else work on it or do it yourself, or you can send it to AGD who knows what they're doing and if they mess it up trying to fix it, they'll replace it. I know it's a hassle and doesn't seem right to have to send in a $1500 gun to get repaired right away, but things like that happen and I wouldn't try modifying anything yourself. Just send it to AGD and get it fixed right.

[luke]

BlackVCG,

Grinding or honing sound's a little harsh. Really all that needs to be done is to smooth of the sharp edges. There really isn't any burrs or major defects, its just that the machined edges are sharp. At this point I can't see anything else wrong. It would void the warranty to smooth the edges with a peace of emery cloth?

[E-SFL]

this morning I called AGD and got a RA#. I sent it back this afternoon to have them work on it. Hopefully Tom Kay himself will take a look at it. Like I said before I think it is in the pressed part of the breech hopefully they will get my gun fixed and sent back to me

[E-SFL]

I called and checked on my gun. They told me the gun has not been looked at yet for the problem that I explained with the boring on the breech. They told me that the laser weld broke off the power tube tip when they took it apart. The tech said it would take 2-3 weeks before the gun would be fixed. My wife is pissed off because I spent $1500 on a new gun and I have not been able to use it. I don't know why they can't pull out the old valve and replace it with a new one because it is warrantied anyhow, instead of being 3 weeks without a gun waiting for them to weld the old one back together. Then after that, I have to wait for the gun to be teched. I am continuing to be more frustrated, with a $1500 gun that I have not been able to shoot yet. Luke has been telling me just be patient they will work the bugs out, and get your gun going right. He says that AGD stands behind their products, I trust him. I just want a gun back in working order. I feel like I bought a lemon.

[AGD]

E-SFL,

I think this was a bad situation to begin with considering you were talked into purchasing this gun by your friend. You certainly seem to be having more problems than most and this is causing us both a lot of frustration. Currently the entire stock of SFL's has been sold out and there are no more until the next batch of Xtremes goes out. Currently I have an SFL promised to someone, so I am going to solve both our problems by giving you your money back on this marker. Please call AGD in the morning and we will send you a check if you can fax us the reciept.

Sorry for all the hastles, sometimes luck is just not with us.

AGD

[liigod]

smooth tom, i like you :cool: And i like good cutomer service like this.

[ricktex]

Name me anyother "CEO" type person that post reply's to their Message Board. Thumbs up to Tom and everyone at AGD. Always fast friendly service. Love the AGD products and Your service Tom. Thanks for a Fine Product Line.
I love going head-to-head with Angels and other High dollar markers. Own and Retro and an older RT. Can't wait till the SFL's and Xtreme's get better and I can afford one.

Now if you guys would just market a bit better.. LOL :)


Quote:
"My name is Tom Kaye and I am the president of the company. "As you can see by coming to AO you get the advantage of a direct pipeline to the top...."

[luke]

ricktex


State the relevancy of your comments...........

[E-SFL]

I am less worried about the money and more worried about getting a working gun. Luke was right I am going to engrave my name, number and team name and logo onto my gun. I want to shoot the E-SFL, I would like to have an all mag team. I have already talked my brother into to buying a mag before I had bought mine. I run a store for some people in AZ, and I have recently talked them into higher end guns. I called yesterday to have an account set up with AGD, I left my name, and number and the machine said somebody would return my call. I would like to carry mags in the store within two weeks. Luke is right I have a heavy influence on what people shoot in this area, only because I play with different groups of people. I ask them what they want and get them what they need. I have already started pushing the mags in the store even though I do not have them in stock. You have to understand I used to use a cocker and I considered it to be the best gun out there. I have been shooting Luke's mags and I am very pleased with the performance and accuracy and especially the dependability, my wife is laughing while typing this message because she knows how much trouble I had with my cocker. She is not to sure about the E-SFL the gun or me. lol. But I am standing behind the product and AGD. Thank you for responding Tom, but I want the gun and not the money.

[AGD]

E-SFL,

Ok, by your request I will fix your gun personally. I am going to make you a beta tester with all the new stuff.

IT STILL MIGHT HAVE PROBLEMS but they will be the best problems I know how to give you. :)

I am going to give you an ACE but it might have issues in sunlight. You run the risk of us changing something down the road and we have to remachine the gun in some other way and it ends up with empty holes inside etc.

If this is ok I will work on it this weekend.

AGD

[brian terry]

e-sfl i sent u a email ,.

[RiceRocket]

Welcome aboard E-SFL. Tom has put you in an enviable position. Beta testers are a select group from I gather from this site and by experience. Like you, I stand behind what I believe. Playing for a team that is dominated by custom Cockers and a growing number of Intimidators, I look like the red-headed step-child. After playing 12(6 tournament) years with a Mag, I have no desire to change. With access to any gun I want to shoot, I remain with the Mag. Because my captain owns the Shocktech line and helped produced the SFL, I felt it was the logical and loyal step to try one. Ever since last World Cup, Tom has continually changed, added, improved my SFL. We've had ups and downs as far as results, but it is all in the effort to make the BEST possible marker. Loyalty rarely goes unrewarded.

[cphilip]

(cphilip now prepares for the onrush of other people who claim their markers all the sudden now don't work so they can get Tom to spend his weekends to make them Beta testers too...;)

E-SFL, envy here! envy!!!!:D Good luck to you buddy.

[E-SFL]

Thank you AGD in case you are wondering the serial # is EM1609. I was wondering what is a beta tester I am real excited about the ACE and all the replys on the thread. I showed my wife the response she is now sure of the E-SFL me and the gun and most importantly AGD I look foward to the new gun.

[RiceRocket]

To be fair to Tom and AGD, we have to remember that respect must go hand-in-hand with loyalty. I'm not the only one here who cries praises for AGD products and customer service, far from it. But it would be highly retroactive for all of us if AGD is inundated with claims of a faulty marker but always faithful. There are several on here who have little trouble at all with their SFL's.

For most, a $1500 marker would be the only marker they own. To be a beta tester would require being parted with your gun during weekends you wish you had it in your hands. Luckily, for me, and I'm sure several others, we have other guns.

In the end, Tom gets the say on who gets to be a lab rat. By the time the Extreme and second generation SFL's are released, I'll bet all the bugs will have been worked out.

Wow, do I sound like a dad or what?

[Hysperion]

that's really cool! ....I like the fact that the new guys (aka e-sfl) get the good stuff and the customers who've owned like every-mag made get the tail (aka sabre and me)....

[the JoKeR]

Originally posted by E-SFL
I was wondering what is a beta tester

Basically, you get to try new stuff out before anybody else. Pros and cons: you're using a gun nobody else can get, but you're also one of the first to try it. Take it for what it is: an attempt to make everything right and keep and AGD customer happy.

[E-SFL]

I talked to luke yesterday about beta testers he explained to me basically what they are and what they do. I also read Jokers post, Luke told me yesterday that I really didn't say yes or no well i'm saying yes let's go ahead and do this, I find it an honor and privlige, and a big thanks to AGD.