Sign the Petition Against the Baltimore Paintball Ban!

[raehl]

If you are a store or field, please download a copy of the petition to have your customers sign.

If you are an individual player, check the location list to find a location near you to go and sign the petition and encourage everyone you know to do the same, ESPECIALLY if they live in Baltimore City - even if they've never played paintball before.

The petition, locations, and more detailed information can all be found at the American Paintball Players Association website, www.paintball-players.org.

Thanks,
Chris

*** Mods, if you could classic this, much appreciated.

[shartley]

Wouldn’t the petition be pretty much useless unless those who signed it are residents of Baltimore?

I know that generally just having names means nothing, they have to be names of those who are directly affected by the proposed laws. For “press” stuff, these mass petitions by nonresidents may do a “little” good, but for changing laws I just don’t see it. We saw basically the same thing happen with the other “law” issue posted here on AO.. lots of people sent e-mails, but the ones that really mattered were from those who lived in the affected location.

I am not trying to be a wet blanket, but if I was making a rule for my house, and my kids brought in petitions signed by 500 kids that don’t live IN my house, how would that change my mind about the new rule? This tends to be the case with petitions concerning laws as well… they generally consist of names comprised of people who are over the age of 18 and live in the affected jurisdiction the law would be enforced in. This means that if it is a local law, the names are pulled locally, state laws/statewide, federal laws/nationwide.. see the pattern?

I would be interested in hearing how people sending in petitions from Illinois, Maine, California, Virginia, etc. would officially affect any law(s) made in Baltimore. From what I have seen, if the name does not directly relate to a VOTE in that jurisdiction, it doesn’t mean squat…. Except for press purposes. But the Press does not make our laws.

Again, this is all very interesting. I would like to hear more about this process since evidently either it is being done wrong (by asking for irrelevant petitions), or I don’t quite fully understand the process… which may be the case. I just don’t see how names of people who don’t live in the affected jurisdiction will change anything, but I admit it would give those involved a good feeling and lets them say “see I did something”.. even if it didn’t do what they thought it did.

[shartley]

Here is the verbiage of the petition as posted on the site listed above:

Dear Baltimore City Council Members:

We, the undersigned, believe that pending bills 02-0703 & 02-0713, which would criminalize the otherwise lawful possession of sporting equipment necessary for paintball players to engage in their sport, present an undue hardship on Baltimore City and other nearby residents and business owners. We believe that a broad ban of such sporting equipment is neither necessary nor effective in promoting public safety. We respectfully request that the Baltimore City Council drop bills 02-0703 and 02-0713 in favor of legislation that strictly prohibits and penalizes the misuse of paintball guns without impacting their proper and safe possession, transfer, discharge and transport.

We thank the Baltimore City Council for taking the time to listen to our views.

This answered some of my questions. It is a petition designed for even those in outlaying communities that may come in contact with the law, as proposed. But this still does not make sense to me… why not then do the same thing for speed limits, or any other ordinances/laws? This idea just does not make sense to me. It would allow groups not even located in the areas the laws proposed in, to dictate how things are done

Might I suggest that the verbiage be looked at again? As it is written, it does not say anything of great value (IMHO). What undue hardship is caused to those in nearby communities? It would actually cause nearby communities to benefit by NOW receiving all the paintball business, and players that are directly affected by the law in BALTIMORE.

You may also want to change “Guns” to “markers”.. after all this is a long time issue with paintball.

(note: This post is a “Devil’s Advocate” post. When confronting issues like these, you must look at things from ALL angles and address any weak spots, or protect angles of attack. It is also a base for conversation and incoming thoughts…... I would also suggest that since the AO staff already “Classic”ed a Thread on this issue, that this thread simply be merged with the existing thread? This has been done with many other topics that sprouted “related” threads. A good platform has been already made.)

[raehl]

In the smaller picture, Baltimore, we've been proactive about contacting stores and fields in the area, and we've asked them to keep one petition for people who live in Baltimore City and one petition for everyone else. We can thus say "This is how many of your voters disagree with this law" and "This is how many other people disagree with this law - just so you know people outside of Baltimore are watching." It's also important to get people in the AREA of Baltimore, because the law does affect them by subjecting ANYONE who travels through the city with a paintball marker to a 60 day term.

In the bigger picture, i.e. legislative action against paintball, this allows us to get people used to the concept of having petitions at their local stores and fields and gets those locations used to the process of having petitions, encouraging people to sign them, and getting them back to us. While in Maryland the signatures are especially important to the issue at hand, the signatures elsewhere still have an effect and are good practice to boot. Remember, we're not only fighting this law now, but setting up the infrastructure to respond to all laws in the future. We have a little extra time this time around since we caught this one early, but we also need to be able to do this on a much shorter time frame, maybe even a week, in the future. Getting a network of stores and fields who are concerned about legislation and can act on short notice hasn't been done and needs to be done.

In terms of the language, the language wasn't just thrown together by me, but has been passed around several people who represent several interests. The petition follows the KISS method - We the undersigned are opposed to the laws you have proposed to ban paintball. Period. Some thought had been given to other alternatives, but for reasons I'm not going to get into on a public web board, it was determined that this was the best way to go. On "Paintball Gun" vs. "Paintball Marker" - while Marker sounds better for general public use, the law says Gun, the people who are going to be signing the petition understand gun, and the Baltimore City Councilmembers, while they are not likely to be influenced by the use of the word "marker" instead of "gun", could be confused by such use. ("We have a law about paintball guns here, what is a paintball marker?")

On nearby communities - these laws hurt everyone. Nobody "gains" anything - if you live in the city and can't buy a paintball marker in the city, you can't buy one outside of the city and bring it home either. There's also some talk that if the law gets passed in Baltimore City, it'll then get passed in Baltimore County, and then get passed in Maryland. (As whoever is behind this law will likely say "We've got this law in Baltimore, but it's not woking because we don't have it in the surrounding areas in Baltimore County. And since Baltimore City constitutes a lot of the votes/money of Baltimore County.... you get the idea.)

Hope that helps clear up why it's written the way it is.

- Chris

[Skoad]

Give them a foot, they will take a mile...
everyone should sign it

[shartley]

Thank you for your response. If I may comment on a couple points.

In the smaller picture, Baltimore, we've been proactive about contacting stores and fields in the area, and we've asked them to keep one petition for people who live in Baltimore City and one petition for everyone else. We can thus say "This is how many of your voters disagree with this law" and "This is how many other people disagree with this law - just so you know people outside of Baltimore are watching."
This is great information, but why not post that someplace? What you now post, and what you HAVE posted (here and on your site) are not quite the same “pictures” of what you are doing.

It's also important to get people in the AREA of Baltimore, because the law does affect them by subjecting ANYONE who travels through the city with a paintball marker to a 60 day term.
This is not uncommon. How about Automobile Insurance Laws (and many others)? You see, many communities (from local to state levels) have laws specific to THEM that also affect those who travel through the community (large or small). This is just a fact of our Legal System and will always be the case when you have multiple jurisdictions. Again, those outside the immediately affected area(s) have little actual “petition” power.

In the bigger picture, i.e. legislative action against paintball, this allows us to get people used to the concept of having petitions at their local stores and fields and gets those locations used to the process of having petitions, encouraging people to sign them, and getting them back to us. While in Maryland the signatures are especially important to the issue at hand, the signatures elsewhere still have an effect and are good practice to boot.
So this is an exercise in making and following a petition process? This in itself sounds interesting, and is a great idea, but you never listed that as a reason to do this. How will the people feel when (if) they find out that when they THOUGHT their petition “work” was going to actually amount to something other than a show of solidarity, it was actually little more than an “exercise” in the petition process? You also just stated that indeed those signatures outside the actual Maryland area (and I might be so bold as to say that the area is more correctly “Baltimore”) don’t amount to any real power as it pertains to THIS issue. Your words, which echoed mine.

Remember, we're not only fighting this law now, but setting up the infrastructure to respond to all laws in the future. We have a little extra time this time around since we caught this one early, but we also need to be able to do this on a much shorter time frame, maybe even a week, in the future. Getting a network of stores and fields who are concerned about legislation and can act on short notice hasn't been done and needs to be done.
More gravy for the goose. This shows to me that this is FIRST an exercise you are running, and SECOND about the actual issue of Paintball in Baltimore. Not necessarily a bad thing, but lets call it like it is. It seems that more important to the “big picture” is the process you are going through, and not what is actually happening in Baltimore. You are using Baltimore as a platform to get people to know about APPA (not in itself a bad thing), and to play a little “game” (if I may) to see how many people you can make jump through a hoop.

This may sound a bit rough, but I assure you it is not. When you openly admit that more than half of the stores participating in your “petition” exercise have no legal strength what so ever (because they are outside the affected jurisdiction) and that any work they do will really be “good practice”, THAT is jumping through a hoop. I did not see anywhere on your site, or in any of your posts (up to this point) that explained what was the real purpose of your exercise was. It all looked as if anyone who signed the petitions was doing so because it would “really” help Baltimore Paintball Players, but this is clearly not the case.

I can assure you that even if the end result was one for the “better good” of Paintball, I would feel a bit used to find out that my actions, which I did thinking they were for one reason, were actually for quite another. This is just not good practice. And for that reason, I am SURE that this was not what you had in mind when you started this process…. Maybe it was just something you overlooked? Maybe these issues were not something you really thought about, and were not an issue until someone actually pointed them out, and asked questions? I hope this is the case, and that it can be rectified.

In terms of the language, the language wasn't just thrown together by me, but has been passed around several people who represent several interests. The petition follows the KISS method - We the undersigned are opposed to the laws you have proposed to ban paintball. Period. Some thought had been given to other alternatives, but for reasons I'm not going to get into on a public web board, it was determined that this was the best way to go. On "Paintball Gun" vs. "Paintball Marker" - while Marker sounds better for general public use, the law says Gun, the people who are going to be signing the petition understand gun, and the Baltimore City Councilmembers, while they are not likely to be influenced by the use of the word "marker" instead of "gun", could be confused by such use. ("We have a law about paintball guns here, what is a paintball marker?")
This is just silly in my opinion. So THEY use the wrong verbiage, thus YOU will use it too? That goes against any and all conversations we have had on the issue of Public Perception about Paintball and educating them about it. How hard would it have been to not only use THEIR verbiage, but to place next to it (Correct term is Paintball Marker)? KISS means Keep It Simple Stupid… NOT.. Keep It Stupid Simple. You can be both accurate AND simple and non-confusing.

On nearby communities - these laws hurt everyone. Nobody "gains" anything - if you live in the city and can't buy a paintball marker in the city, you can't buy one outside of the city and bring it home either. There's also some talk that if the law gets passed in Baltimore City, it'll then get passed in Baltimore County, and then get passed in Maryland. (As whoever is behind this law will likely say "We've got this law in Baltimore, but it's not woking because we don't have it in the surrounding areas in Baltimore County. And since Baltimore City constitutes a lot of the votes/money of Baltimore County.... you get the idea.)
This is GREAT! But might I suggest it is also rhetoric, pure and simple. This did not address any of the questions I asked (which you clearly answered in the rest of the post, proving I was correct in my assessment) but does stir the froth.. it brings the chest high, and unites people in a common goal. Wonderful…. But does it really DO anything? Nope.

Simply put, “talk” is just that, and mentioning “talk” is even less. You can not deal with “talk”, you can only deal with things that happen. And what are you going to do when (if) this “talk” becomes reality and you ask the same folks to once again sign a petition to “save them”? I would think they would be likely to say.. “But I already did! Why do I have to do it again?” You would then have to tell them that what they signed before was “practice” and this is “real”… think they will understand? And what if again they are outside the actual affected areas? You just get caught up in the “game” again.

As for Skoad’s comment:

Give them a foot, they will take a mile...
everyone should sign it
I agree totally! But those who sign should be those who’s signatures actually mean something. And sorry, but those are people who live in Baltimore. Having a grass routes “door pounding” and petition signing would actually be more effective here than lots of signatures from non-residents. But which do you think is easier? ;)

Also keep in mind that those FOR the laws will more than likely be using the same type of thinking. ;)

(Again, this post is only to add to conversation and provoke further thought. Which seems to be a good thing since many of its issues appear not to have been thought about. If it was in MY community, I can assure you that I would be one helping the "door pounding".)

[raehl]

I'm not going to go point by point, but I think this should explain things.

Lots of reasoning is not going to be explained on the website, because lots of reasoning is not going to be made public. Anyone, paintball supporter and paintball anti-zealot alike, can read the website. So if you feel like you're only getting half the story, well... that's because you're only getting half the story.

If you want more of the story, you'll need to get involved with the organization beyond the "Reading the website and web boards" level. The people who have taken a really proactive role in this situation know pretty much everything, the people who sit back and read websites know what's on the websites.

I will say that in this particular instance, the original goal was to get petitions in paintball stores and fields around Baltimore so that Baltimore City residents would be able to sign them. We're publicizing it everywhere because even if you don't live in Baltimore, you may know someone who does, and should thus get them to sign it, paintball player or not. As a result of all this, other people wanted to get involved who wern't in the immediate area, and their involvement would have positive benifits (both on this issue and in general) and not hurt anything, so there was certainly no reason to turn them down. I was just pointing out what some of the general benifits were.

In any case, everyone knows what the petition they're signing says, and everyone knows what that petition is going to be used for. We've left it to the potential signers to determine what level of effort they're willing to expend in relation to the impact their particular signature will have. Could we say "Don't bother signing if you're out of state"? Sure. But why not let people make their own decision? Everyone certainly has enough information to make an informed decision about the action that works best for them.

- Chris

[shartley]

Thanks Chris!

That puts things in a much better perspective. :)

(Got your PM….. good job.)

[ShinyGuy]

Shartley: I don't know how big an industry paintball is in Baltimore right now but by showing the powers that be how big an industry paintball is world wide we do acomplish something. The voices of the people directly effected by the ban definately count for more than those of us out here in California, but by showing them the size of the industry as a whole we make it clear that paintball is not a sport that they want to cut out of Baltimore's economy. I'm not saying that the signitures from around the country are that important. Just don't discount them completely.

[shartley]

(no comment... I already said what I was going to say.... just giving this another UP.)

[shartley]

Up again please...