What justifies the cost of an Emag?

[Dave]

I was at a local store today, the same one that refuses to carry Emags. I asked the guy why it was again that they didn't carry Emags...because the last time I talked to a guy there I got an excuse. I got the same thing this time...here is what I was told:

The Emag is basically a mag with an electronic frame slapped on. And why would we carry a gun that costs about $1000 when we have mag at $200?

It made me think, but I know the Emag isn't just a hypermag. Then I talked about the release of the X-treme Emag and how it will have the anti-chop eye and low pressure mod and cool milling...then the response was:

Yeah, but for $1400 you could just get an angel, a gun that started out aluminum and already milled(or something like that)

And so I started to think of why the Emag costs what it costs...maybe Tom could help me out on the exact figures....for most of the whole gun.

I haven't really seen an Emag under $1000 unless it was a sale and certainly not in cool colors...so I am trying to figure out what justifies the cost of the emag. I'd like to let these guys know. They are gonna be missing out when the X-treme hits the scene! Also I really don't think it's fair to compare it to a classic mag with standard feed and no barrel.

-Dave

[RATM]

First of all its not just a 200 dollar mag that has an electronic grip thrown on. Its more like a 700 one. You're forgetting the Retrovalve.

[InfinatyBPS]

I was wondering the same thing, because even an RT Pro goes for $500. I was wondering, because in reality it realy is just a Electro frame with a battery pack in the front, because as far as I know, there aren't any rams or anything making it realy a true electro, it is still controled by a sear unlike most any true electro. But dispite this it does seem to be a good quality and performing gun.

[Dave]

no, I didn't forget the Retro...I am asking just what is it that makes it a $700 gun w/o the electronic frame, because comparitively, like InfinityBPS says, RTs are around $500.

-Dave

[Croix71]

There's a lot of things added up to get that $1000 price tag. Stuff like materials, dealers mark up, R&D costs, customer service @ AGD, etc. I look at this way, a comic book is just paper and ink but they sell it for $3-4. You end up paying for all the costs associated with that product. I think it would be hard to quantify exactly. :confused:

[Restola]

well the going price online for a new emag seems to be around $900-1000. a used one for $650-750.

i dont think it is overpriced at all. maybe you and the guys at the store have never shot one before. comparing an emag to a $200 mag with a grip slapped on is like comparing a chevy cavillier to a corvette. simply because they both have an engine, and tires, and are from chevy, doesnt make them equal. regardless of how much $$ you put in the cavillier it is not a vette and wont perform like one.

simply being here first will give the angel a lot of support regardless of the facts also.

i really stopped caring when im at the field what other people say or think. everyone is so misinformed and so dug into whatever trench they got into that it really isnt worth the battle for me to try to make people see the light. kind of like politics or religion. why ruin a good dinner or a good game of paintball with largly useless and often inflamitory conversations. whenever i get pulled into a debate (usually between the young players) and someone asks me what gun is the best ill shrug, say something good about my mag and the player behind it, and walk away.

my opinion anyways. you are all free to continue your struggle of course.

[KamikazePenguin]

well, let's start with the price of an RT pro: add a circuit board, solenoid, NiMH battery pack, entirely new grip frame, car charger...i'd say that $400 is made up easy (they're $900 @paintballgear.com). Also, you've got to figure in a profit margin for AGD.

[Major Ho]

Dave...You know darn straight that Pevs JUST had their annual sale having COLORED emags for $795, NEW!!!. If you are shopping at check it...poor poor you, i pity you... They are stuck in their happy little la la land. They cater to the wet behind the ears, newbie, young guns. Jim bends over backwards for the kids but if youre not one, tough luck... As for the EMag. Have you even touched the grip frame? Have you seen how extremely cool the whole magnetic trigger thing was. Yes I do believe that its pretty much a mag with an electro grip on it but its made to AGD specs. From what I hear, stuff like the centerflag grips do something odd like not open the...(dang I forgot what that one person told me) but it doesnt do stuff right and kinda tears up your gun. For example, Im told the centerflag frame will eat up your bolt. Maybe its the sear or something that it doesnt hold it down long enough or something. Hang around rob for a while and he'll show you all the neat tricks his emag can do.
I also reiterate the unbelievably cool and silky smooth magentic trigger. What is this store you speak of?

[Snooky]

well ur not gonna find out what they go for from the factory because its against agds policys for dealers to release this info. but most emags now go for 850-900 new and 625-750 used. thats the prices ive seen atleast. hope this helps.

[Kevmag]

At the company I used to work for (not Paintball or even sporting goods related), the standard MSRP pricing was at least 5 X the COGS (Cost of Goods Sold). So if you took the price of one of our products and divided by 5 you'd get roughly the cost to build this product.

Again, I have no idea how AGD or any other paintball related company prices their products, but wouldn't be suprised if there is a multiplier associated pricing (MSRP).

[Hemlock86]

What justifies the Retro valve to be $300?...beside the fact it perfoms better, Im sure it doesnt cost that much more to make then the classic valve :/

Ill probably still end up getting one, and Im sure thats why it cost what it does...


peace

[Predater]

the angel costs less cuz its ben around a wile. the emag just came out and there trying to get back the money from research and developement.

[Major Ho]

Actually from where I've shopped, the Retro is cheaper than the standard valve when bought alone. compare 275 to 350. And getting the retro is like getting a whole new gun anyways. You can alternate valves between your marker if you ever feel the need. Why must everyone justify everything. Things are because they are :D

What is the meaning of life...???

[Cliffio]

actually when you add up all the costs of everything from the basic emag it comes to be a bargin

kind like the adrenalin angel compared to stock lcd

[CNickerson]

[/B][/QUOTE]"At the company I used to work for (not Paintball or even sporting goods related), the standard MSRP pricing was at least 5 X the COGS (Cost of Goods Sold). So if you took the price of one of our products and divided by 5 you'd get roughly the cost to build this product.

Again, I have no idea how AGD or any other paintball related company prices their products, but wouldn't be suprised if there is a multiplier associated pricing (MSRP)."[/B][/QUOTE]"


Does anyone find it wrong that Angels cost 70 dollars to make? Everything is marked up. If its from England you've got international tariffs, then the energy needed to run a factory, labor, the cost of the material, cost of machines,etc.. So, while a gun may be dirt cheap to make, you've got a buncha different costs to factor in.

[Cliffio]

Originally posted by CNickerson
Angels cost 70 dollars to make


thats a myth
no block of aluminum + milling + anodizing + electricals + other parts costs 70 bucks

[soilent green]

the retro valve is 300 cause it is payng for R&D and warranty not just basic cost and hey their is a store near me that gave me that same line of crap that for $500 you could build your own Emag

[~WarpedRT~]

Actually, Angels probably only cost about $140 to make. that includes materials, because they are bought at wholesale price, and are cheap. I know someone who could make the same kind of Angel that you could buy now for less than $200. People go "Oww, ahh!" at the LCD screen. Do you know how much they cost? They are on watches on countless people's wrists, so they only cost a few pennies. What justifies the cost of an Angel? Why should it be considered over an E-Mag?
Only a few Angls have to be sold at present prices before it completely covers the cost of materials, man power, and machines for a whole bunch of them, or, they could just sell alot of them at a very low price, and make it up on volume.

In the end, the markup on paintball guns is out rageous, and over $700 profit.

[animal]

The same thing goes for my understanding of art. (which i still don't but hey). Something is worth whatever someone will pay for it. Plain and simple. Doesnt matter how much it costs to make, or how much a markup is. If John Q Public will pay a grand for something, then that is what it's worth, and people will keep charging that price for it until they can't get it anymore

[CNickerson]

Angels do not cost around 400 dollars, Im sorry, but you're wrong. I've talked to Angel techs who know about WDP's factory, WarpedRT and I are about right ont he price I think. How much do you think a small circuit board takes too make when mass produced Cliffio, Aluminum isn't really that expensive. What you don't realize is that if someone were to make an Angel from scratch it may cost 400, but when something is mass produced everything gets cheaper because everything is bought in bulk. The fact that angels cost around $70 is not a myth.

[kenshinkandon]

I think the big price difference in the angels is the amount it costs to impot them to the United States from Britian due to Tariffs and shipping. If you look at the Evolution from Besales it's almost 1400 dollars and I don't think it is any better than a FreeFlow which is made in the US and it cost less.

[Gup44]

Perhaps if AGD actually made thier own stuff and didn't have to pay the greater Chicago area to make all their <B>*POOF*</B> for them, they may not have such high price tags. They might even be able to get their products produced in a timely manner (imagine that folks!)if they made the parts themselves... but they don't. So we suffer.

<B>*No cussing* -Miscue</B>

[animal]

Hey gup, do you seriously think they would sit there and say, "well, we could buy a manufacturing facility and make all of our own stuff, but we'd rather spend more money to send out for it." No, of course not. In order to mass produce things you need considerable facilities, machinery, and employees to do so. This is not to mention the cost of retooling and maintenance every time you wish to change the product. Sure, from the outside it may look like the lazy man's approach, but I'd have a hard time believing that the decision wasn't thought about in depth already. It is a business, and I'm sure profits were weighed in each case. That was probably the main reason they send out for the parts to be mass produced rather than spend a ton of cash to make them internally. Sure, it's effective if you sell a million of these things a year, but based on the serial numbers i've seen, it's not really close to that. Cost effectiveness man.

Now I may be wrong, in which case i would like to hear the reason they aren't producing these things themselves.

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by Gup44
Perhaps if AGD actually made thier own stuff and didn't have to pay the greater Chicago area to make all their <B>*POOF*</B> for them, they may not have such high price tags. They might even be able to get their products produced in a timely manner (imagine that folks!)if they made the parts themselves... but they don't. So we suffer.

<B>*No cussing* -Miscue</B>

Ok then if it were that easy why dont you buy a couple million dollars of CNC machining equipment and start making guns yourself.

On top of that hired skilled personel to run the machines

Maintainence people to take care of the machines

And pay the utility to run the machines.

If you want to change somthing you have to spend money retooling the machines.

It IS in fact cheaper to outsource.

[Bartleby]

i think we're all in agreement that AGD is not even close to the largest paintball products manufacturer and thus their costs per each gun or each aftermarket part are much more than any of the larger companies. companies like wgp produce more, sell more and thus the mark up required to pay off the costs of production is much less. AGD on the other hand, sells much less and i believe do much more research than any other paintball products manufacturer and thus their markup MUST be larger just to make ends meet.

And i think that most of you guys are underestimating the production costs of a marker. consider how large these companies actually are and consider all the expenses they assume. not only do they pay for the materials and the cost of the machinery, but you also have to remember everything else than runs a company. there is rent, salaries for secretaries, engineers, marketing, custodians, technical support, and then all the transportation and benefit costs for all the empoyees of the company, and i'm just getting started! i mean they even have to consider insurance and what if the company gets involved in a lawsuit because some kid shot himself in the eye and his parents decide to sue to makers of the gun.

these companies have costs up the wazoo and what it all comes down to is who can produce the most and sell the most, can charge the least and still have the largest profit. and like stated before, i think we all agree that AGD is not the biggest or most commonly used, which has nothing to do with being the best. So what justifies the cost of the E-Mag? you want perfection? you want the best of the best? you want the world's greatest technical support? if these are the things you value the most, then you've already justified the cost.

-Aaron

[Vegeta]

R&D prices add up. Testing, equpipment, salaries of the people who run the tests, the salaries and software of the CAD designers, it goes on and on. A company has to pay for that. And AGD has a office in the UK.. it costs money to run that too. Also, The thing abotu an angel costing 70 buck.. I doubt that. The part RAW maybe... prbably not. Yes you could go and buy all the parts it takes to build hte circuit boards, the resistors, capacitors, Eprom chip, LCD screen, Microswitches, and it will add up to be around 20 bucks (eproms arent cheap). The solenoids, say 20 bucks a peice, the vavlve, say about 60. but thats raw parts. You have to pay people to put them together! You have to pay companies to print hte boards you haev to pay companies to burn the eproms you have to pay companies to assemble the valve. And if you dont haev otehr companies do it like AGD does soem of hteir stuff (they get alot of parts from other manufactuers) they you have to pay your own people to do it. You have to pay for the eqipment, the eprom burners, the board presses, the chipsetters, the soldering robots... unless its assembled by hand and that is hard labor. Then you have to get the aluminum and mill it, unless a company does that for you. For a C&C gun like soem angels, cockers, and the SFL's... that means lots of EXPENSIVE equipment. Good milling and lathe machines can cost upwards of $70,000, Ask Manike. Having someone program the machine to do the work costs money too.

It adds up. It might not add up to 1000$, but it adds up, and the company has to make some sort of profit.

as Cphillip says: Do you know the secret of the eamg? ITS THE TRIGGER!

Magnets people! man thats unique. The trigger pull starts out heavy becuase of the magnetic pull, but it gets lighter becuase of the magnets getting further away from each otehr, and therefore not experiencign as strong of pull. Its a really cool feel...you cant get it on any other gun.

[CleenSweep]

Two Words........Stainless Steel. It just costs more than aluminum or plastic. It also cost more to machine it.

[Dave]

Originally posted by Major Ho
Dave...You know darn straight that Pevs JUST had their annual sale having COLORED emags for $795, NEW!!!. If you are shopping at check it...poor poor you, i pity you... They are stuck in their happy little la la land. They cater to the wet behind the ears, newbie, young guns. Jim bends over backwards for the kids but if youre not one, tough luck... As for the EMag. Have you even touched the grip frame? Have you seen how extremely cool the whole magnetic trigger thing was. Yes I do believe that its pretty much a mag with an electro grip on it but its made to AGD specs. From what I hear, stuff like the centerflag grips do something odd like not open the...(dang I forgot what that one person told me) but it doesnt do stuff right and kinda tears up your gun. For example, Im told the centerflag frame will eat up your bolt. Maybe its the sear or something that it doesnt hold it down long enough or something. Hang around rob for a while and he'll show you all the neat tricks his emag can do.
I also reiterate the unbelievably cool and silky smooth magentic trigger. What is this store you speak of?

Yeah, I held the last colored Emag they had...when I asked Rob the price, it was like $100 of what it normally costs or something, which amounted to $900-1000...I had no idea it was so cheap. I do all my shopping at Pev's unless it is a rare case like when Check It had a Z-grip. When I was at the store, I wasn't even there for paintball, I went with some friends who were looking at Airsoft guns.

I know how extremely cool the Emag is, I agree! My question was not out of contempt but curiosity, and since I tried to firgure it out in my mind but it wasn't adding up(or maybe it was), I knew some people here could help:)

-Dave

[Grey_Goose]

I've heard from a couple of sources that AGD sells them for ~$600 to dealers. Then, OPEC-style, everyone fixes their prices and there you go.

I think an important thing (which has been pointed out already) is the R&D. You're not only paying for the product, but the R&D that went into it and R&D currently in the works for future products.

Yes, mass production makes unit prices seem ridiculously cheap in comparison to retail prices, but what about the thousands of parts that had to be machined alone during R&D? Custom made components that get scrapped over and over because of minute tolerance issues that are discovered in defining the final specs...

Anywho, I guess my point is that it's silly to claim that the only worth the marker has is the sum of it's parts.

It's a great marker, and (imho) very aggressively priced. Add in AGD's support and RobAGD's mods, and you have a bargain.

[magic55]

Two Words........Stainless Steel. It just costs more than aluminum or plastic. It also
cost more to machine it.
then why do the extreme and sfl cost so much more than a regular emag?

[FordPrefect]

Because, if they sell the SFL for less than the Emag, then what would you rather have? They would get almost no sales of the Emag, and then when they stop production on SFL's(or something) then everyone will be in outrage, because they used to be able to get something that is better, for less money.

Market economy, people will pay for better things, ussually.

[Ityl]

SFL has a chunk of aluminum for the body and the reg emag has a stainless tube. I would bet that the chunk of AL takes more time that the stainless tube to make. Also the SFL has interchangeable breaches and the ACE.

[Hasty8]

What is the justification for buying a 2000 dollar electro and not being able to use it becuase the battery dies?

I purchased my Emag, brand new, for just under 1000 bucks and not only did I get a great shooting electro with way more bells and whistels then I will ever need but I also got the best non-electro marker with the fastest recharging valve in the industry.

I basiclly got two markers for the price of one. Now how can you beat that argument?

If these goobers want to believe their blind stupidity then you just have to realize that they are beating their heads against a wall that will never move and nothin you can say will ever change that.

Life is to short to get tripped up by the goobers we encounter. The trick is to recognize them while they are at a distance so we can easily evade them.

[slayer]

don't forget advertising, sponsorships, and product support. The materials to make a gun may be only a fraction of the total production cost.

[gimp]

I dont know what justifies the cost either. I looked in the online store, and looked at the prices of a lot of the indivitual pieces. It's so expensive.

[-§on-]

Ok, Im just wondering something else. Look at all of the people that are posting up...Why hasn't Tom said anything yet? I want to know the real truth, straight from the source itself.

[Dave]

I didn't stop to think about the behind the scenes stuff, although I am not sure what percentage that adds to the final cost. Stuff like research, and definitely the customer service, although I never thought of AGD's service as having to pay for it, it was always excellent service, excellent product, $ thrown out of the picture. I would really really like to get an Emag(preferable a green to black fade:) ) and I have seen different prices on them, from the black regular ones from around $899 to the colored ones that go up to $1100. If anything, the incredible quality of the product does more than justify the cost.

-Dave

[fearc7]

what is pev? an online stre or something?

[-§on-]

Another thing you have to put into consideration, is the makers of the gun need to get paid. They don't work for free and they build a lot of Emag's and other automags everyday. So just something else to throw in there.....