New superbolt Material?

[Predator]

I wanted to ask Tom about this when I was at Ultimate Madness, but he was busy. I had the chance to hand him his barrel bag though.

What about Ertalyte? Bonebrake and DEZign use this material for their bolts and it is very strong. It also does not react adversely to paint oils, humidity, heat, or moisture. The material is stronger, and thus harder to machine that Delrin.

I have DEZign bolts in my angels made of this material, and they still look great after alot of use. I'm sure it could hold up better than the delrin on the superbolts.

I believe the problem with the superbolts is the fact that the delin, if not cleaned right after a day of play, will absorb the paint and oils. That would cause it to swell, and in turn cause it to wear against the spring faster. I'm about 100% sure thats most of the probems. I'm sure there are people who clean their mags after every day, but I bet even more don't.

Most people follow, "If it isn't broke, don't fix it." Just something to ponder.

[hardr0ck68]

how about a new design...why cant the replacable delrin part be the whole front of the bolt, like no stainless sleve for it to slide on to just a stainless tail that it could thread on to...it would be more expensive all around, and i dont know how exactly to have the parts in the center of the bolt hel din place....but it was just a passing thought

[Predator]

I believe having the bolt all machined as one piece is better, with just the sleve. If you had just the plastic for the front, it would have no support. So eventually, with the ss part of the bolt being threaded to it, it would break. the threads would hold for awhile, but they would eventually break why cycling the marker.

You also have the SS part of the bolt that slides into the powertube. That wouldn't hold for long in any type of plastic that I know of.

I don't see why the sleeve can't the threaded partially at the end though. The sleve isn't bearing any load while firing, and it would stay alot better than just pressing it on. Just another thought though.

[hardr0ck68]

good call...i havent gotten to play around with much delrin...i guess i thought it was stronger than it really is

[fearc7]

what is this Ertalyte? ive never heard of it.:rolleyes:

[hitech]

What if instead of machining the outside of the bolt, the inside of the bold was machined and the sleve was placed on the inside, where it would be permanent? Since the "plastic" sleve would/could form the air tight seal it might even be possile to have holes/slots etc. cut the in SS to further reduce weight.

Wadda think?

[tomcat]

I think using the internal part of the superbolt and replacing the delrin portion with aircraft aluminum. I would also change the head design to be more like a venturi boltBetter bolt diagram (http://fces.net/bolt.gif) to fix the ball breakage issue.
It is clear that lighter seems to be better. The aluminum portion would be hard enough as the current portion of the superbolt is where the wear occurs.

[Cristobal]

tomcat, that's a good idea of for the bolt -- I've been thinking along the same lines myself about how a concave face could potentially lessen damage to the ball waiting. Nice to see a good diagram of how it would work.

[ts1spoc]

About Bolts... Wouldn't a tighter bolt also increase gas efficiency and velocity?
After I posted this it wasn't as clear as I thought.
To clarify, wouldn't a tighter barrel I.D. to bolt O.D. fit increase gas efficiency and velocity. And with the Derlin sleeve (or some other UHMW plastic) the friction would be negligiable. If the sleeve were easily replaced wearing it out would also be inconsequential.

[AGD]

The problem with a deeply cupped face is that the ball rolls back into it and when fired the ball waiting gets pushed back up the feed tube. No free lunch.

AGD

[tomcat]

I am trying to visualize why the next ball jumps back up the feed tube, but can not see it. Can you please explain why you think this is so.

If that was the case why not use two ball dentents. One in front and one behind to stop it rolloing back? You coud use one of those plastic nubbins and put two lumps instead of one. If you can guarantee where the ball being fired is at just before the bolt strikes it and also where the ball above it is then I think you have covered your bases. Let gravity do the rest!

Days like this I bet you wish you really could share your knowledge with the collective!!! :)

[AGD]

Try this with pennies on a table top. Start with the stack of balls in perfect alignment, then move the bottom one to the right an 1/8 inch. What happens is a gap opens up between the stack and the one you just moved. The stack falls down to take up the gap. When you push the bottom ball back into position, like when you fire it, the stack jumps back up.

AGD

[ts1spoc]

As you explain it the balls are going to jump back up no matter what type of bolt face you have. The difference is with a deeply cupped face you stand a better chance of cutting a ball than with a rounded nose bolt. Correct?

[tomcat]

Thanks Tom,

I tried the pennies thing as you suggested. In the diagram below I have introduced a double nubbin to the concave bolt idea to stop it rolling back if that is really that big of a problem.
The "A" diagrams are the regular smooth edge bolt, and the "B" is the concave bolt idea!

The yellow arrows represent where I think the spin or direction of the ball is at that moment. Of course it might only be the most minute amount of rotation at any point.

To answer the other persons question; I even threw in an o-ring at the tip of the bolt to reduce ball chop with the sharper edge. It should be assumed that the balls are in the correct position as they fall though or ANY bolt will chop them. If there are not enough balls on top of the one in the breech then there would be a number of factors that could lead to paintball being destroyed, including bounce, blowback, latent dropping, short-stroking, bolt gas leak, etc.
I am excluding all of those factors.

After this if you still think I am wrong I will bow to your knowledge as you are the expert and I am just a paintball junky nut case :)

Scott

P.S. Labeled each diag just incase you want to set me straight on something I am missing :)

[tomcat]

So if the concave bolt worked here is what a replacement to the Delrin sleeve could look like!

[Minimag4me]

ok a few things, the concave bolt is sharper so it would be more prone to chopping. The double nubbin thing would be bad because when the bolt actually hits the ball it would slap the ball and possibly cause more barrel breaks.

Also i think the concave face doesnt push the ball into the barrel far enough causing barrel breaks. I think thats why they put foamies on the newer superbolts.

I have a superbolt that i wont use in fear of it breaking and i would like to get this resolved. I dont like 50 dollars of mine just sitting. Aluminum or something else would be fine with me just get it fixed soon please.

[tomcat]

The bolt is sharper but I don't think it would increase ball breakage at all. In the same way that it has a sharp nose, the flat nose bolt has a greater surface area to smash the ball at any angle. The IMPORTANT thing to remember is that any ball that is NOT in correct postion when ANY bolt type comes forward is probably going to break.

I doubt that the ball would break with the double nubbin system because the concave shape and very short distance from the ball to the bolt head would absorb a great deal of the shock induced. i.e Throw an egg into the air and hit it with a flat palm. The egg will break. Do the same thing but cup your hand. The egg has a much better chance of surviving because the impact is absorbed over a greater area of the surface of the egg and your palm.

I think a foamie or softer surface does help. I am not sure how much though.
An important thing to remember is that the automag/RT worked fine with the regular bolt for a long time. The only thing that has been introduced is an electronic trigger and I think, a longer breach (in the SFL anyway).
Not to mention that so many manufacturers are making the paint more brittle (don't even get me started on that!).
Using a long nose foamie is probably still too short for my SFL causing blowback (I shoot fast!) and hence ball breakage in my gun. I think the solution will come from a longer bolt of whatever material and architecture.
In the mean time I will continue to hypothasize because I can't shoot my gun yet so what else is there to do! :) :)

A big issue in my mind is the speed that the bolt comes forward. It looks like it is going MUCH faster than my Angel or Autococker bolt. Maybe I should direct my attention to reducing the speed of that! Now we will REALLY have to reduce the weight of the bolt hehe!

I do think a metal (aluminum) rather than delrin is better though because the inside of the ring inside the body that the bolt head goes through into the breech has a sharp inside edge that rubs against the delrin, shaving it, weakening it, and eventually wearing it tilll it cracks.

I could get frustrated and yell why doesn't my new $1400 dollar gun work, or I can try to help do something to fix it(even if I have no clue what i am doing) ! If nothing else, its good therapy :)

[ts1spoc]

1. The O-ring on the front of the bolt won't make any diference in whether the ball is cut.
2. The lighter bolt beng driven forward by the same force as a heavier bolt is going to accelerate quicker and is going to strike the ball at a greater speed, albeit over a short distance. So a foamie might help.
3. I do think the double nubbin system would keep the distance the ball rolls around in the chamber to a minimum.
4. A UHMW plastic is going to decrease friction and would be less likley to produce a sharp ball destroying burr than aluminum. The rear of the chamber can be radiused to prevent hangups. And with the plastic several sizes could be manufactured to fit the barrel chamber. (Increase gas eficiency.)
5. Chamber shape (the area in which the ball sits when the bolt is closed and the ball begins its forward movement) should be the guiding factor in redesigning the bolt. It should provide the most advantagous pressure wave behind the ball possible.
6. We are still limited by the ballistic coefficient of the paintballs. Until ball quality improves to the point all balls are perfect spheres we will still have inaccuracy no matter what type of system we use.

[tomcat]

1. You are right. the o-ring won't make a difference if the ball is not in position. I thought I clarified that :)
2. Maybe. If the bolt is lighter then it has a harder time pushing against the bolt spring. That is why I figured it could slow down. Heavier bolt = greater inertia. Reducing gas pressure might help as well.
3. maybe :)
4. I am not sure we sould have to worry about too many ball breaking sharp burrs. I agree with you that the chamber edge could be smoothed to prevent faster wear. I am still trying to think of a solution that changes just the bolt though. Not the whole gun as that would be cost prohibitive and everyone would have to send their gun back in that has a problem...yuck!
5. I will take your word for it :)
6. I think balls are accurate enough now and am not worried about that. I think going back to old school shell is the way to go. I think we have becoome to extreme with this breakable shell thing. I would rather bounce a paintball off of someone then have to clean my gun and not be able to shoot at all!
7. Yes I know you did not make a point 7 :) Just wanted to say...my that is a big dog! Meet my little Kitty!

[BlackVCG]

The purpose of the cupped face design is to eliminate the gap inbetween the bolt face and the ball on the front of it. This prevents damage to the next ball inline. Unfortunately, with a cupped face you misalign the ball stack and this allows the next ball inline to drop down in farther and get hit by the bolt face and bounce back up.

As for the double nubbin idea, there just isn't enough room in the nubbin slot in the barrel to make two contact points on the ball.

[tomcat]

I have the SFL e-mag so keep forgetting that most people with an e-mag are using the AGD type barrel rather than the autococker thread.
A friend and I filmed my e-mag firing last night. We found that sometimes the ball in the breech was going past the detent (SFL remember!). This allowed the next ball in line to move down and get hit by the bolt!
I mentioned something about this in the tech forum the other day but only proved it last night. Friday night we are going to try again with a detent in the other side at the same time and really rip on the paint!