At how many bps can a regular AIR valve no longer keep up?

[ScoobYSnax]

Hey guys, I am considering getting a retro valve, but don't know if I really need one. I'm a newb, and don't have a very fast trigger finger(s). I will probably end up around 6-7bps MAX (right now it's more like 3-4). My question is, at what point is the AIR valve no longer able to keep up? When does it start having bad velocity fluctuations?

Also, at 3-5 bps, does an AIR and retro valve perform the same?

Let me know guys, i want to know if I really NEED the retro or not.

[nuggy43]

I easily get my classic mag up to 15 bps with no problems. Even with a slow trigger finger u should be able to get 8-10 bps. I have no need to get a retro valve mainly because i think 15 bps is enough any more is really useless. But some people think thats not enough.

[Croix71]

Curious, how did you measure the 15bps? Did you use a hyperframe or something?

[pip_999]

Originally posted by nuggy43
I easily get my classic mag up to 15 bps with no problems.

boy thats the highlight of my day :D

lol 15bps

[BlackVCG]

Odyssey Paintball has a video of a HyperFrame Mag at 16bps. It's having no problems.

[Croix71]

I finally saw those videos early this month. They exceeded their bandwith last month. :D

[xmetal2001]

im not positive, but i think i remember reading that you actually start getting shootdown at 7bps but its not noticable until somewhere around 11-12

[ScoobYSnax]

Thanks xmetal, that was exactly what I was looking for. Anyone else back up xmetal's numbers? Let me know, thanks!

[Gunga]

Originally posted by xmetal2001
im not positive, but i think i remember reading that you actually start getting shootdown at 7bps but its not noticable until somewhere around 11-12

Welp, I for one didn't notice any shootdown in that Halo/Hyperframed Mag from '93 video. :)

[bamboo]

lol easily 15 bps
lol most ppl with slow trigger fingers can easily shoot 10 bps

i wonder how u measured ur "15 bps"

back in the day i think the major problem for such crazy shootdown was that most everyone was on CO2 and when u fire fast u would start to get liquid in the gun and then it would fire like a drunken monkey.

i dunno, i don't have any numbers either, i just had to laugh at the "15 bps" and "slow trigger finger 8-10 bps" thing.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by bamboo
lol easily 15 bps
lol most ppl with slow trigger fingers can easily shoot 10 bps

i wonder how u measured ur "15 bps"

back in the day i think the major problem for such crazy shootdown was that most everyone was on CO2 and when u fire fast u would start to get liquid in the gun and then it would fire like a drunken monkey.

i dunno, i don't have any numbers either, i just had to laugh at the "15 bps" and "slow trigger finger 8-10 bps" thing.

lol... Seems like you're fairly new here... if you go to the oddysey website there is a video that has a hyperframe mag with stock AIR valve and halo doing 15 bps... Don't laugh, it's the truth! lol

[pumpamatic]

I can comfortably shoot about 7. If you put a firecracker under my seat, I can shoot about 12 at the most, with my Dye frame. Try to think of your accuracy more than how fast you shoot. Once you've shot your mag enough, speed is not even on your mind and you can fling a decent speed of balls without much thought. I would purchase a decent couple of barrels and good air system before thinking of getting a retro.

[bamboo]

that doens't change the fact that most people with ANY trigger cannot shoot over 9-11 bps including pros. put any trigger frame on it u want. a person with a slow trigger finger cannot easily shoot 8-10 bps on anything, doesn't matter if its a hyperframe. just because a gun can shoot fast doesn't mean U can shoot it that fast.

[subbeh]

How the hell can you guys "comfortably" shoot 10 or so balls a second with no assistance, just your fingers...

How are you measuring this?

Seems... far-fetched in the least.

Try recording it on your computer and look at the spikes.

When my RT goes waaaaaaaaaaaaay reactive I get about 7-10, TOPS!

[Trunnion]

i'm just curious, but how would i go about measuring my rate of fire? what device do you use? a special chronograph or something? i don't think i shoot any faster than 6 on a good day, and even then only for a rather short span, but i'd like to know for sure.

[subbeh]

Originally posted by subbeh
Try recording it on your computer and look at the spikes.

I mean like in a sound editing program in the computer.

Or video tape it and play it in slow-mo with the timer on.

[Curly]

well on angels you can check to see how fast you can fire. on a bad day with my friends dark not gassed up i hit 12 bps. so i dont think its impossible at all. and once you gass up a gun you tend to fire a little faster.

[a_malfunction]

The BPS meter on an Angel is flawed... It only measures the time between the two shots that are closest together. It then divides a second by that time and gives you a reading. It is a little inflated.

[Trunnion]

it was my understanding that it is easier to hit a high rate of fire with an electro gun as opposed to straight, no frills mechanical gun. is my understanding incorrect? i thought that was the whole purpose of electro guns, to increase rate of fire. if that IS the case, than hitting 12 bps with an angel is not a great accomplishment, while hitting that rate with just your finger on a single trigger mechanical gun is next to impossible for the average paintballer

[MajorDamage]

Well I can get about 14-15 on my Emag walking the trigger(no way I could get that fast just regular shooting, also I have my trigger set really short and light). I notice skipping when I have it set at 13bps, not many skips when its set at 14 and none at 15. Without walking a trigger 12 or 13 is like max. When I look at the spikes on the sound I recorded, most of the time its not spikes but just a large sound bar lol, the spikes just run together into a big bar :). It's the fastest ive ever heard(that I know of :)).

ENDO!

[ShinyGuy]

I actually prefer a crisp mechanical trigger to the mouse-click feel. I can shoot about 6-7bps acurately out of my mag and about 9-10bps when I'm not actually trying to hit anything. 7-8 is about the best I can do with any of the electos I've tried. I just like the amount of feedback I get mechanical trigger. (I've only shot an RT a couple of times and didn't get the chance to measure ROF, but it was scary fast.)

[pip_999]

this is funny

[hardr0ck68]

ok all you dopes who say your shooting 15bps fill your hopper counting the exact # of balls (dont just assume 200 cause no hopper on the market really holds exactly 200) then shoot for 5 seconds as fast as possiable. cound the remaining balls, subtract remaining from starting and devide the # shot by 5....i think you will be sadly mistaken. with my retro cookin i can pull 7-8 with my hyperframe i can get lucky and get about the same but ushally shoot less...i ushally dont let the trigger forward enough before i pull again and skip shots. maybe my finger is just slow....but i have been playin for 5 years now and i realized the guy with the fastest trigger finger ushally spends most of his time pullin pods....its all for bragging rights and in the game anything over 9bps is just a waste. you cant post up on your lane if you need to drop behind your bunker to fill up every 30sec.

[hardr0ck68]

the air valve will keep up with you as long as your finger knows what to do. the air valve will go up to 15bps without shootdown as long as you pull the trigger right everytime....and use air. from my experances after you get going you get shoot down from pulling the trigger again before the on/off has fully oppened, sometimes it causes a shortstroke, other times it causes shootdown (shootdown is just like a lesser shortstroke most of the time). but the retro is mad hard to shortstroke, and i have never had shootdown with mine so its all up to you. if you start shooting so fast you notice shootdown on air then you can either go retro, or get a better finger.;)

[Ityl]

The key to the regular mag is completing the pull fully. But I'd say if the gun is setup correctly, then a regular mag can hold up to about 12 bps without noticable shootdown, possibly more. But it's hard to notice a couple fps while shooting. Actually shootdown I thought occured at around 10.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by hardr0ck68
ok all you dopes who say your shooting 15bps fill your hopper counting the exact # of balls (dont just assume 200 cause no hopper on the market really holds exactly 200) then shoot for 5 seconds as fast as possiable. cound the remaining balls, subtract remaining from starting and devide the # shot by 5....i think you will be sadly mistaken. with my retro cookin i can pull 7-8 with my hyperframe i can get lucky and get about the same but ushally shoot less...i ushally dont let the trigger forward enough before i pull again and skip shots. maybe my finger is just slow....but i have been playin for 5 years now and i realized the guy with the fastest trigger finger ushally spends most of his time pullin pods....its all for bragging rights and in the game anything over 9bps is just a waste. you cant post up on your lane if you need to drop behind your bunker to fill up every 30sec.

that only gives you an average of your bps for the shots. You CAN fire faster but it's hard for a long string like 5 or more seconds... I can barely keep a 2 second string...

[vlhockey22]

No one here shoots faster than 13 bps.Whatever you think your ROF is subtract two from that and thats most likely to be closest to your ROF unless you are actually recording and lsitening to it (then your most likely going to be correct) and for those of you who think your hitting 15 subtract 6 from that and thats probably what your ROF is.(hahahaha 15 bps now thats funny)

[mrbrutal]

on an unmodified hyperframe, max in semi mode is 13bps, 10 for hyper mode. Its not going to let you shoot 15 bps if its set to 13 bps

[pip_999]

notice how the people who have said they can pull 15 bps have suddenly left

[Puddleglum]

Somehow it always seems faster when you're by yourself. But really, most loaders (save Warp and Halo) can't feed any faster than 13-14 bps. And that is if the batteries are fresh. I really doubt the people that are making claims of 13-15 bps are making accurate claims. What AO needs is a universal system to figure your bps count. That way we could all like compete. Good Idea?????:D

[pip_999]

they have it on chrono's now adays

i forget which one

[nerobro]

Originally posted by a_malfunction
The BPS meter on an Angel is flawed... It only measures the time between the two shots that are closest together. It then divides a second by that time and gives you a reading. It is a little inflated.

Funny... the definition of frequency is number of events divided by time. The meter isn't flawed, it's actually correct if that's how it measures BPS. BPS is an instantanious measurement, much like MPH, or Hz.

Realisticly, I put BPS measurements to an average over a duration of time. or an average over a number of shots.

When we timed me, we put 80 balls in the hopper and had me fire my heart out. I averaged 8.5bps for 80 balls. I was shooting less than 7bps for most of that string.

I wish I had more accurate timing equipment than just a stopwatch. For the first 10 balls or so i was well above 10bps.

[Paintballer86]

I got yall beat, I shoot 23 a second :rolleyes:

[ScoobYSnax]

Hey guys, I appreciate all the votes and comments made. I feel, however, that this thread is turning into a "How fast can you fire" thread with people making too high of claims and others then flaming/refuting them. I appreciate everyone's willingness to vote, but staying more on my initial topic/question would be great. I was mainly looking for answers to decide whether a retro valve would be needed for me and my newbie trigger finger (6bps MAX). I've learned the AIR valve is quite capable of keeping up with 6bps, and so I've decided that a retro valve just isn't for me right now. I will play with my mag a lot before deciding a retro is truly what I need. Feel free to continue posting anything about the AIR valve's performance though.

Thanks guys, you rock!

[nerobro]

You might considder possting in deep blue. I haven't seen anything hard on the recharge rate of the unireg type regs.

[MajorDamage]

I have a sound clip of me shooting 13bps, I know I can do more than that tho :), I'm gonna record some more Saturday :)

ENDO!

[pumpamatic]

Yeah, I've heard a sound clip of MajorDamage pulling at least 12. It was pretty dang fast, that's all I know. But I think he did this on an Emag.

[pip_999]

me and damage had a little discusion bout tha tearlier

how he editied it
LOL jk

[nuggy43]

im not exactly 15 bps put it was pretty dang fast. And who ever says u can only get like 7-8 bps must not now how to shoot a mag. i can easily get 13 or more bbs and all i have is a stock air valve. I'll have to time my self or record it for u non belivers.

[pip_999]

by all means go ahead
dude major damage only got 12 on his EMAG
you can not get 13 on a standard mini
sorry man

[pip_999]

especially witha benchy
those things are long pull

sorry man

[nuggy43]

the benchy isnt that long if u now how to work it. Thier is a lot of play in the trigger though.

[than205]

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/etriggers/cflagmag/index.shtml



quote this article by bill mills:
"In a police training facility in a warehouse north of Chicago I saw something amazing. It was early winter 1999 when I had the opportunity to test fire a prototype Centerflag Hyperframe. Dennis Ashley from Centerflag products had the frame installed on a powerfeed Automag that was connected to a prototype 2XS loader system (the loader is expected to be released late 2001 from a different company). We fired the 'mag fully automatic at 22, yes, that's 22 shots per second. That level of firepower is truly jaw-dropping"