AGD SFL E-MAG VS. WS Dark IR3

[Hysperion]

OK who better to review these two guns then someone who owns both?.....

Presentation....

SFL E-Mag- gun came in plain white box with bubble wrap around gun protecting it. Gun had sticker on side that said SFL E-mag with a serial number crossed out by hand and a different serial number written below it in ink. Came with video on how to operate.

Dark IR3- gun came in proffesional packaging with full-color manual and foam box.

Winner: Dark IR3.......huge difference.......

Performance....

SFL E-Mag- Performance is very erratic. On some days she will shoot beautifully while on other days she will break every 3rd ball no matter what paint you use. If we talk about actual speed the e-mag wins, but who cares how much paint you're shooting if it's not going at the target.....

Dark IR3- I've only used it once so far so I'm by no means an expert on it but I shot 2500 rounds without a break that right there tells you something for the gun....

Winner: Dark IR3.....When the sfl isn't breaking left and right the performance is very similiar between the two. Unfortunately it never isn't breaking.

Looks....

SFL E-Mag- no doubt it's a very nice looking gun, needs to get rid of the cheesy led though.

Dark IR3- Great looking lcd, puts the lcd in the standard lcd angel to shame. Awesome anodizing.

Winner: Dark IR3...this is a two sided coin because while some might think the sfl looks better, that's not what I based this decision on. When I got my sfl there were small hairline scratches in the anodizing that you see when you look close. Also the trigger frame looks like they anodized over something or forgot to polish it because it isn't the exact color of the rest of the gun. On the other hand, the dark ir3 didn't have a single scratch anywhere on the finish when I got it. This is what I based my decision on here. The angel just feels so much more refined and not so slapped together.[/B]

Triggers....

SFL E-Mag-This is definately where the e-mag stands out. I love the magnet feel.

Dark IR3-Good trigger, fairly easy to adjust to however you want it.

Winner: SFL E-Mag There's something to be said about the trigger bouncing back in hybrid mode after you shoot it or switching the gun into manual if the electronics die.

Overall Opinion

I haven't had much luck with the e-mag. Ever since I got it it has been one problem after another. The last 2 times I've used it it has worked suprisingly well and a teammate of mine that used it last sunday while I was gone commented that he liked it and didn't have any problems with it. On the same hand the gun cost $1450. That's only $300 less then my dark ir3 and the same price as a C&C IR3 which comes with a barrel. Everything about the ir3 is just better. LCD over Led, Grips are 10x better, frame is more comfortable, 10x the features (ya half of them are worthless).....for those of you waiting for the release of the E-Mag X-Treme just know that the real deal (aka ir3) is out right now.

[Croix71]

:eek: Wish I could own both an SFL and an IR3, at the same time, to do such a test.

[Hysperion]

and does the e-mag come with your name programmed in it direct from the company you ordered it from?

[Cliffio]

thats good stuff to know, i cant wait until i can get enough together to get one!

Cliff

[oneshot]

with that color the dark does not look half bad, nice gun, nice review.



also off the subject , but were did you get the gray piece that is clamped around your nitro duck tank from? I have the same tank and have been looking for something like that so for awile

[Mango]

yeahhhhh boy! IR3 all the way BABY! :) :)

yeah you can program it to say anything up to 5 letters long when the gun is live. It bounces back and forth between "Live" and "Angel" or "Brian" or "Mango" as mine says. :)

Live Mango! watch out! :D

[Clare]

and does the e-mag come with your name programmed in it direct from the company you ordered it from?

and what real purpose would this have in addition to the other useless features on the ir3, I dont see how that alone would make it a better marker.

[Mango]

no one said it would make it better. he was just pointing that out. The only "useless" feature on the IR3 is the ability to change the name (it's not listed as a feature anyway). Everything else has practicle use for the marker and the performance/maintenence.

[Spaceman613]

I would actually buy an angel, if it came with a regular 45 frame and no LCD.... but I will have to settle for an emag when they hit production (extreme version)... If only they didnt come with the LED... Now that would be a great gun for me. I hate lights on my markers..

Oh and for the packaging, I would rather have a plain box than a flashy "Wal Mart style" box. Shows that whats inside is more important than whats on the outside. But thats just MY opinion.

And its true, that color acrually makes the angel look good. but I still think the SFL looks better, another opinion.

[Clare]

infrared data transfer "has practicle use for the marker and the performance/maintenence"? oh I agree about the packaging, who cares what the box looks like! Anyway, I'm not bashing ir3's or anything, I'm sure they're awesome...

[Cliffio]

the infra red does have preactical uses... if you are having software probelms that can be fixes without the need for another board the infra red beam from a "fixed" ir3 can make your ir3 run smoothly again, it can also send personal preferences from gun to gun, but mainly it can be used to fix internal problems

Cliff

[Hysperion]

and what real purpose would this have in addition to the other useless features on the ir3, I dont see how that alone would make it a better marker.

I wasn't saying it would make it a better marker, just that it's a cool feature and one that I like having on my gun.

infrared data transfer "has practicle use for the marker and the performance/maintenence"? oh I agree about the packaging, who cares what the box looks like! Anyway, I'm not bashing ir3's or anything, I'm sure they're awesome....

I was like you once Cap....AGD all the way....then I spent $1500 on a lemon and got responses like "It's that darn angel detent the only product we don't make." Funny because the angel detent seems to work fine on my angel....It's ok though, you guys might think I just dislike AGD or something but would I spend $1500 on one of their markers if I didn't like them? Obviously not and if I didn't like it I wouldn't have removed it from sale. It is actually a decent marker but for $1500 there is much better stuff out there. The IR3 is lighter, looks better (this is an opinion but it's not an opinion that the gun is much more refined), costs about the same, has a nice lcd, and plain rips. By the way the infra-red feature does have a practical use, there is an option that is worthless right now on the ir3 that says H.U.D., according to rumors I've heard, they're coming out with a mask or something that the gun sends info like game time remaining etc. and it is displayed in the mask...

[Hysperion]

Oh and for the packaging, I would rather have a plain box than a flashy "Wal Mart style" box. Shows that whats inside is more important than whats on the outside. But thats just MY opinion.

Packaging doesn't show anything. All it shows is the company took the time to present their product nicely. The packaging means nothing in terms of the markers performance. And having a cheap box doesn't show that what's inside is more important, it shows the company didn't want to spend money on marketing. This is 100% fine with me 100% of the time. Unfortunately, in this case the dark ir3 not only looks better on the outside, it looks better on the inside and performs better as well...At least you said "but thats just MY opinion."....Because it is your wrong opinion.

[Hysperion]

oneshot that piece on the nitro duck was custom made by my teammate who is a machinist.

[mykroft]

On the packaging, WDP's IR3 packaging is very subdued, but classy. It's a matt blue box that says angel, and has the WDP motto at the bottom, open it up and it's high-quality foam, like what's used to package Electonic test equipment.

[Cliffio]

which shows that they took their time and designed it, and thought about how it would look on the shelves

wdp is big on image tho
as well it should be, it sells guns, no one wants a gun that looks like its just been thrown together with odds and ends, unles its a cocker, anyways

packaging does matter in regards to marker performance, eveyrone knows that, he was merely saying that the box looks good conpared to a white box that could have come from anywhere, wdo took the time and money and effort into designing the box that their markers were to go out in

Cliff


dark ir3 = win

[TITAN]

Hysperion- its not going to be a mask... some dude just made that up. it would not be reliable or practical and you would have to have the ir3 pointing at the sensor on your mask at all times... which i doubt you can do while your playing. when wdp releases you will see

[Butterfingers]

Hyper have you tried tapering the tip on your bolt. Try that with the SFL and report back.

Rounding the front edge of your bolt has shown to produce a DRASTIC decrease in the amount of breaks.

Please report back with the results.

[Bonx0007]

Having the gun coming in a plain box tells me that more went into the RnD instead of just packaging. keep in mind that AGD is still in the Beta test phase with the Extreme and usually companies do not have full commercial packaging for Beta products. But there is a good point to be made that if AGD wants to sell more guns a little presentation would be taken well by the consumer. Lets face it humans are visual creatures we like to see nice things even if it is just a box. I personally don't think this way but I know that most people do. Also, the fact that the gun is in beta phase means that you should come here and report back the preformance in order to possibly fix the problem before wide spread release is made. I think you should also try to grind that bolt down it helped me stop chopping entirely. I love my gun now(A retro mag) Anyway, nice guns dude and thanks for the review. And to everyone else to not be hard on him for being honest in his opinion. This type of discusion is what it is all about. This is how we keep things moving in a productive direction by talking about things and developing solutions. I see a few suggestions for AGD coming out of this thread that I think he should take heed to but as always that is up to him. We have proved in times before that the AO army is quite influencial. Use that influence and help Tom out. He is only one man. Keep it up AO!

[CRASHKING]

Every gun has it's good spots and it's bad spot's

the extreme has the changeble feeds and takes cocker threads which is pretty cool

[Cliffio]

angels take angel threads which is cool

its tough to say that using cocker threads is a plus, then your saying that the twist lock system is sub-par when compared to the cocker threads

Cliff

[AGD]

Humm, I'm feeling pretty beaten up right now. Now I know why John Rice doesn't want to get involved on the net.

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
Humm, I'm feeling pretty beaten up right now. Now I know why John Rice doesn't want to get involved on the net.

You just take things to personaly. Just remember the old saying about opinions... :D

[Cliffio]

tom-everyone is just jelous:)


Cliff

[Vegeta]

Tom... it doesn't matter... jsut think.. YOUR BETTER THAN THOSE COMMIE WDP PPL!

If packaging determines the gun's performance... my Talon is better than your Mag....

[Cliffio]

Originally posted by Vegeta
If packaging determines the gun's performance

no one EVER said that

[CRASHKING]

Originally posted by Bonx0007
Having the gun coming in a plain box tells me that more went into the RnD instead of just packaging. keep in mind that AGD is still in the Beta test phase with the Extreme and usually companies do not have full commercial packaging for Beta products. But there is a good point to be made that if AGD wants to sell more guns a little presentation would be taken well by the consumer. Lets face it humans are visual creatures we like to see nice things even if it is just a box. I personally don't think this way but I know that most people do. Also, the fact that the gun is in beta phase means that you should come here and report back the preformance in order to possibly fix the problem before wide spread release is made. I think you should also try to grind that bolt down it helped me stop chopping entirely. I love my gun now(A retro mag) Anyway, nice guns dude and thanks for the review. And to everyone else to not be hard on him for being honest in his opinion. This type of discusion is what it is all about. This is how we keep things moving in a productive direction by talking about things and developing solutions. I see a few suggestions for AGD coming out of this thread that I think he should take heed to but as always that is up to him. We have proved in times before that the AO army is quite influencial. Use that influence and help Tom out. He is only one man. Keep it up AO!

just a small add-on

it's actually good that agd is releasing these beta versions in small amounts then it will be used in real-life situations. instead of lab testing

now if the ir3 was done that way they might have gotten rid of the "space frame" since it is weird looking(no offense)or they might have thought of something else that might have improved the performance.

[Cliffio]

but the space grip is a performance improving feature over the lcd frame

[TITAN]

Originally posted by Cliffio


no one EVER said that

agreed all he said was the packaging was more proffesional looking and is more protective instead of a little bubble wrap... no one ever said the angel performs better than the mag because of it packaging!

heres a pic of the packaging

[SlipknotX556]

Well I know what gun I am getting next. And its not an emag.

[CRASHKING]

cool looking

still going to buy an extreme though

[TITAN]

Originally posted by CRASHKING

now if the ir3 was done that way they might have gotten rid of the "space frame" since it is weird looking(no offense)or they might have thought of something else that might have improved the performance.

have you even ever held an ir3 and really felt the spaceframe? and who cares if its wierd looking if it makes it easier to play and improves performance?

as some of you said how agd does r&d and stuff instead of making nice packaging wdp spent almost 2 years designing this gun so dont go and say they just slapped it together and shipped it off the tested this and made sure everything worked before they were sent off and yeah sure some might have bugs but all new guns do...

[Cliffio]

Originally posted by TITAN
as some of you said how agd does r&d and stuff instead of making nice packaging wdp spent almost 2 years designing this gun so dont go and say they just slapped it together and shipped it off the tested this and made sure everything worked before they were sent off and yeah sure some might have bugs but all new guns do...

thank you.

[CRASHKING]

Originally posted by TITAN


as some of you said how agd does r&d and stuff instead of making nice packaging wdp spent almost 2 years designing this gun so dont go and say they just slapped it together and shipped it off the tested this and made sure everything worked before they were sent off and yeah sure some might have bugs but all new guns do...

no body said anything about either two being slaped toget her and shipped.
besides cliffio was saying that no-one wants oe done that way which is true

anyways why dont we stop fighting over this and return to peace?

after all it is material stuff we are talking about next year or the year after that something better will be out.

just like the computer industry

[2000Sabre]

I don't think hysperion is out of line with anything he posted in this thread. I happen to think in some aspects he's right on. All he is saying is that in his opinion the IR3 is presented better and has performed better in his limited use of the product.

It's too bad that Tom feels like he's being beaten up because I don't think that this thread is a slam on himself, AGD or the SFL. I would hope that he would take it in the spirit in which was intended.

I also own an SFL and it has not lived up to expectations as well. I have posted several threads on performance problems with my marker and it's on it's way back to AGD for a look see. I'm not giving up on it yet but I'm seriously considering buying an Angel as well. The perception that an Angel performs better and is easier on paint has a lot to do with my decision. Whether this is true or not, perception is often reality. I think AGD should take a look at what it can do to turn this perception around.

I disagree that the SFL has been released as a small beta run because it's not sold that way to people who are buying them. In my opinion a fifteen hundred dollar marker should come with professionally prepared documentation (not two pages staples together) and a video which is specific to the gun you've purchased. Granted none of these have anything to do with how it performs but it goes a long way to providing a buyer a satisfactory experience. Would you be happy if you bought a high end luxury car only to find out it's full of left over chevy chevette parts and has an owners manual from a volkswagen beatle? I don't think so.

If AGD wants to be considered a high end player in this market then it should act like one. Even if it means delaying product and we shouldn't pressure them into releasing product before it's ready. This includes the appropriate level of documentation.

Buck up Tom. We all appreciate the time you put in here on AO and the opportunities you provide us. It's not all gloom and doom. I think you still have some room for improvements and if all we did was blow sunshine up your butt you wouldn't respect us.

[Cliffio]

well said.

[liigod]

::imagine me with both my hands out like a scale::

over 1.3k for a gun with anti chop features and a purdy lcd and some colors and stuff
1700 bucks for the geard up one (dark ir3)
(ir3)
::looks at right hand::

550 for base or around 700 for the whole gun setup reg and all with anti chop features and purdy lcd.
900 for the nice geard up one (gz timmah)
(intimidator)

::looks at left hand, and lets right hand drop to my side::

thats 800 bucks for a few features like purdyness, and a few degrees on the grip frame angle, and being made in england (which isnt a plus in my book).

Im shure that your dark ir3 is an amazing gun, that shoots well. But your comparign a dud sfl emag to about the most expensive gun u can buy. I liked your review, but i just wanted to toss out there what i think on this subject for all those people who wana get a dark ir3 now.

Remember always ask, will i play better because of this feature? Will i play 800 dollars better!?!?!

[DjGruv]

That does look good...

[damageinc54]

I bought my EMag with a centerfeed body and it broke more paint than any gun I had ever shot. I was ready to sell the EMag and buy an IR3. I felt that I had paid 1250.00 for a pretty red blender. I swithced to a powerfeed body and now I am not breaking nearly as much paint. A broken ball here and there, nothing unusual. Otherwise I have had no problems with the EMag. However, if I do start having any kind of persistent problems with my EMag, I will not hesitate to drop it and buy an IR3. It seems to me that I am reading a lot of posts here about guys having trouble with the SFL's. Why is that??? I do agree that some nice packaging and a professional looking manual and video would be nice with a $1000.00+ gun. For as long as AGD has been around I would expect much more from them in packaging, manuals, and getting new products out. I feel that they take far too long to get out new products and it is starting to look like they are getting left behind in many areas. You can see by my signature that I do support AGD products, but I would like to see more from them.

[Snooky]

I also have seen problems with SFL's on the boards. However there I have also seen people that love thier sfl's.

I have no feeling towards the angel due to i have never shot it. however i have shot a emag extreme and it was one hell of a gun.

As for my money AGD gets it.

[AGDRules]

AGD is for me

[the JoKeR]

Originally posted by AGD
Humm, I'm feeling pretty beaten up right now. Now I know why John Rice doesn't want to get involved on the net.

If it'll make you feel better, Hysperion will probably be at Sam's Big Game this weekend. Maybe you could stop on up and 'demonstrate' how well the Mag really works? Hehehe:D

[hitech]

Here is another point of view...

Presentation....

SFL E-Mag- gun came in plain white box with bubble wrap around gun protecting it. Gun had sticker on side that said SFL E-mag with a serial number crossed out by hand and a different serial number written below it in ink. Came with video on how to operate.

Dark IR3- gun came in professional packaging with full-color manual and foam box.

Winner: SFL E-Mag. While it would have been better to wait until the serial number could be properly engraved the enclosed video beats a full-color manual any day.

Performance....

SFL E-Mag- It very fast. The magnetic trigger is hard to beat. At first it was breaking more pain than I would like but rounding the face of the bolt fixed that. Normally I wouldn't be to thrilled about having to make that kind of modification myself. However, other markers have the same problem and at least I knew (thanks to the manufacturer) how to fix it. And man is it fast.

Dark IR3- I've only used it once so far so I'm by no means an expert on it but I shot 2500 rounds without a break that right there tells you something for the gun....

Winner: E-Mag by a VERY small margin.

Looks....

SFL E-Mag- no doubt it's a very nice looking gun. I prefer the original E-Mag looks, but one of the new C&C Extremes is really nice.

Dark IR3- Great looking lcd, puts the lcd in the standard lcd angel to shame. Awesome anodizing.

Winner: Dark IR3... While I like the looks of one of the new C&C Extremes better it's not what we are reviewing.

Triggers....

SFL E-Mag-This is definately where the e-mag stands out. I love the magnet feel.

Dark IR3-Good trigger, fairly easy to adjust to however you want it.

Winner: SFL E-Mag There's something to be said about the trigger bouncing back in hybrid mode after you shoot it or switching the gun into manual if the electronics die.

Overall Opinion

I haven't had much luck with the E-Mag. Hopefully the rounded bolt will fix the paint breakage problems. The last 2 times I've used it, it has worked surprisingly well and a teammate of mine that used it last Sunday while I was gone commented that he liked it and didn't have any problems with it. On the same hand the gun cost $1450. That's $300 less then my dark ir3 so I have $300 dollars left for upgrades. Grips are first on the list.

[Hysperion]

Originally posted by liigod: Im shure that your dark ir3 is an amazing gun, that shoots well. But your comparign a dud sfl emag to about the most expensive gun u can buy. I liked your review, but i just wanted to toss out there what i think on this subject for all those people who wana get a dark ir3 now.

I'm comparing a dud sfl emag to the most expensive gun you can buy? (Hey, you're the one that said the sfl e-mag was the dud not me. And I highly doubt mine is simply a dud because I'm definately not the only person having problems.) Do you know what an sfl costs? $1450 without a barrel...I paid $1780 for my dark ir3 and got a lifetime labor warranty and barrel. Considering the fact that the C&C IR3 is about $1500 with a barrel I'd say both the ir3 and sfl e-mag are in the exact same price category. The price will not even be a reason somebody would buy an ir3 over an sfl or the other reason around, they are too close. And comparing the ir3 to a gz timmy is a complete joke, the angel is 60x more advanced. If a gz timmy is so great and such a great price why aren't more people buying it over the ir3? I don't know about you but I think the ir3 has outsold the gz timmy like 10 to 1......

And it's not like I don't like my sfl. I didn't sell it even when I got the offer I was looking for because I know I'll eventually get some low-pressure stuff that will probably make it work good. And i'm not dissing on AGD either because if I didn't like AGD my first three guns (68,rt pro, sfl) wouldn't have all been made by them......

[Hysperion]

BTW hitech, if you didn't spend $1450 on a gun that gives you problems all the time you don't have any right to promote it/diss it or try and change other people's opinions. The sfl was $300 cheaper but after I spent $180 on the matching boomy and $50 on the drop, it was nearly the same price. However, I love the fact that they don't include a barrel because as happened with my ir3, I bought a freak and will never use the stock barrel anyways. And also the video is nowhere near as nice (not that the video is bad, just that a manual would be nice) as the included manual unless you haven't learned to read yet. It's real easy for people to come on here and go, "ya, you're wrong, AGD rules"....Go buy a $1450 lemon then come back here and tell me that.....Fortunately, the e-mag seems to be working pretty well lately, hopefully it will stay that way...

[bornl33t]

there's one thing that the angle CAN'T do. And even if the Angel was 1000$ vs. and E-mag @1500$. The angel is a paper weight after the batt dies. So if you think the angel is all that, and buy into pretty looks, pretty lcd, pretty boxes. I hope you went ahead and boughta second batt. Cause at the end of the day, I'll still be playing :D

NO if's, but's, when's, about's. The angel is inferior.:p

[krafty]

Has anyone bothered to point out that the SFL is really a Shocktech product, using AGD parts? Any complaints about packaging should be directed not at Airgun, but at Shocktech.

[Cliffio]

no one is complaining

he was merely comparing the two


this is getting out of hand, no one is reading all the posts and everyone is taking this as an attack on the sfl when its really not

i suggest everyone read this thread before posting

Cliff

[hitech]

Originally posted by Hysperion
BTW hitech, if you didn't spend $1450 on a gun that gives you problems all the time you don't have any right to promote it/diss it...

Yes I do. I do not need to spend any money to have the right to give my opinion.


Originally posted by Hysperion
The sfl was $300 cheaper but after I spent $180 on the matching boomy and $50 on the drop, it was nearly the same price.
There are the upgrades I was referring to. If you want to compare the prices you have to add those to the Angel also.


Originally posted by Hysperion
And also the video is nowhere near as nice (not that the video is bad, just that a manual would be nice) as the included manual unless you haven't learned to read yet.

I haven't seen the SFL video, but assumeing it is at least as good as the classic 'mag one, I would MUCH rather have the video than a full-color manual.


Originally posted by Hysperion
Go buy a $1450 lemon then come back here and tell me that. Fortunately, the e-mag seems to be working pretty well lately, hopefully it will stay that way.

I understand your frustration. I would just have a different attitude. When I purchase something as bleeding edge as the SFL I expect to have some problems. And in general, I wait until they are worked out before I purchase. But that's just me. :D

The inability to handle brittle paint can happen to anyone. I saw an Angel having far worse problems than you when no one else was having problems. He had an expensive wagner power painter. He wasn't able to get ANY paintball out intact. Strangely the problem cured itself after squeegeeing and cleaning the maker for most of the game. I hope your SFL continues to work well. After hearing what Tom is working on your SFL will end up being easier on brittle paint than ANY OTHER MARKER. :D

[the JoKeR]

Originally posted by hitech
I haven't seen the SFL video, but assumeing it is at least as good as the classic 'mag one, I would MUCH rather have the video than a full-color manual.

I don't own either gun (yet), but with the Angel, isn't the manual basically the size of a telephone book? I would like to see more manufacturers put out instructions that are comprehensive and complete. I picked up a regulator for my gun recently and it had nothing with it. No warranty info, no rebuild info, no diagram with part numbers for reordering parts, no phone number, nothing. It all goes back to the marketing part of this thread. AGD doesn't set the world on fire with their shipping boxes, but you get what you need.

[hitech]

Originally posted by the JoKeR
AGD doesn't set the world on fire with their shipping boxes...

No. However, I cannot understand wanting a color manual instead of the video. IMO (I'm never humble, can you tell?) the video is FAR superior to a manual. :D

[TITAN]

Originally posted by Heat
there's one thing that the angle CAN'T do. And even if the Angel was 1000$ vs. and E-mag @1500$. The angel is a paper weight after the batt dies. So if you think the angel is all that, and buy into pretty looks, pretty lcd, pretty boxes. I hope you went ahead and boughta second batt. Cause at the end of the day, I'll still be playing :D

NO if's, but's, when's, about's. The angel is inferior.:p

wow! your a moron:D who do you think is gonna be dumb enough not to charge it? plus the battery lasts like what 28 fulls days or so and has alot more shots on a battery than an emag! im really sick of hearing people say this...

and i cant stand all these people that think that they have to be dedicated to one company! there are many other good guns out there... i love agd and their products but i also love angels so i use both. why dont you guys stop tryin to flame him for making his point and giving his opinion.

[Spaceman613]

Originally posted by TITAN


wow! your a moron:D why dont you guys stop tryin to flame him for making his point and giving his opinion.

Road goes both ways. Not just for you, but for all of us.

I think his statement about the paperweight needed to be taken with a grain of salt. The manual mode is a huge sellin gpoint IMO, but other guns have better features.

He like the IR3 better right now, maybe in a month the mag will gain his trust again. Who cares, they are HIS GUNS, and HIS OPINIONS..

And I do agree that this brand loyalty thing is sometimes taken a bit too far. And they make fun of Shatner's disciples????

[the JoKeR]

Originally posted by hitech


No. However, I cannot understand wanting a color manual instead of the video. IMO (I'm never humble, can you tell?) the video is FAR superior to a manual. :D

I got enough information out of the RT video to rebuild the RT and valve, but I've heard that the Angel book goes into great detail, which I'm sure it needs due to all the programming options. For something that involved, I'd prefer the manual. Guns like the RT and most other guns that won't wake you up in the morning with a nice cup of coffee (I hear the next Angel will do that!) don't need that much info and a video works fine. Then again, my workbench doesn't have a TV/VCR, so the maual is handy...

[Cliffio]

ok ive had both now lets compare them

the angel book has full color maps and answers just about every one of the features on the angel

it also has a diagram that tells you what kind of loctite was used on what screw, very helpfull!



now i have a micro emag and the videro i got was of a regular emag, how helpfull do you think this was to me?
NOT VERY, maybe the principals)sp) are the same but model wise i have an aluminum body and it is MUCH different that the regular emag


at least the angel book convers each and EVER angel lcd
not just a specific type of angel lcd


Cliff

[Hysperion]

I can say with 99.9999999% certainty that the people on here dissing angels have never owned one brand new from the factory. And that part about the battery dieing is a joke. You can charge the battery for 10 minutes in your car and play all day. For example on the angel there is a battery readout with 3 bars. Last time I played I fully charged it. That day I shot around 2500 paintballs. I haven't charged it since but the gun is constantly turned on with me messing around with it. Right now it has 2 bars. If the battery ever gets low just stick it in the car for 10 minutes and your set. Besides manual mode isn't that great anyways, I mean it's nice to have but lets face it you're not gonna be ripping going from an e-trigger to a heavy pull.

[Hysperion]

When I purchase something as bleeding edge as the SFL I expect to have some problems.

Well when I spend $1500 on a marker I don't.....and besides the ir3 is arguably more advanced then the sfl and it hasn't given me any problems out of the box....If you're happy with paying 15 bills for an incomplete marker, by all means buy an sfl with my blessing. This stuff about wait for the low-pressure upgrades is a joke, who knows when that will be released and who knows when the warp breeches will be released.

[Rooster]

"And comparing the ir3 to a gz timmy is a complete joke, the angel is 60x more advanced. If a gz timmy is so great and such a great price why aren't more people buying it over the ir3? I don't know about you but I think the ir3 has outsold the gz timmy like 10 to 1...... "

LoL, now who's the one who is blindly brand loyal. I have never seen an angel preform any better than a timmy. Admitedly i havn't gotten my hands on the newest version of either yet. Your question is beyond flawed, its like asking why Nike outsells Reebok, when Reebok is as good quality wise and yet cheaper, its becuase all the other kids have Nike shoes.

[TITAN]

Originally posted by Rooster

LoL, now who's the one who is blindly brand loyal. I have never seen an angel preform any better than a timmy. Admitedly i havn't gotten my hands on the newest version of either yet. Your question is beyond flawed, its like asking why Nike outsells Reebok, when Reebok is as good quality wise and yet cheaper, its becuase all the other kids have Nike shoes.

thats not why i but angels or any other gun but because its my personal preference and the angel is one of the best.
and i have never seen a timmy out perform an angel... timmy's are crap and i would never own one again after having problems with 2. the shoot just like a spyder with a ****ty trigger. angels are much better than timmys but thats my personal opinion.

[bornl33t]

Originally posted by TITAN


wow! your a moron:D who do you think is gonna be dumb enough not to charge it? plus the battery lasts like what 28 fulls days or so and has alot more shots on a battery than an emag! im really sick of hearing people say this...

and i cant stand all these people that think that they have to be dedicated to one company! there are many other good guns out there... i love agd and their products but i also love angels so i use both. why dont you guys stop tryin to flame him for making his point and giving his opinion.

Gotta be careful when ya start flaming ppl, YA KNOW? Speacially when the one your flaming admits to being a major hot head and has no considerations for flameing back. Luck you I'm in a good mood. OH, and it has a tendancy to get whole threads shut down.

And just so you know... ppl ARE dumb enough to forget to charge their guns. Happens all the time and YOU know it.

How old are you btw?

[TITAN]

lol

im 17 what do you care?

[Steve Crush]

the reason i bought the emag cause it offered the electric, manul, and hybrid mode. I always wanted a electric gun and in the same time i didn't wanna part with my RT. I had an RT b4 and absolutly loved it. I bought the emag cause it kinda looks like the RT. I could care less if the angel looks better. I personally have not had a single ball break on me (knocks on wood). Played with a friends angel last week and even tho i could get it to fire quicker i couldn't aim with it as well, i couldn't get a comfortable grip on it. And i paid a little less then 1400 :). in my opnion Emag = win


steve

[Cliffio]

Originally posted by Heat


Gotta be careful when ya start flaming ppl, YA KNOW? Speacially when the one your flaming admits to being a major hot head and has no considerations for flameing back. Luck you I'm in a good mood. OH, and it has a tendancy to get whole threads shut down.


*sudden shiver in my boots*
:rolleyes:

anyways, any responsible person is ready to go play paintball WAY before its time to leave
-- and angels only take like an hour and a half to fully charge, so 10 or 20 minutes is gonna get you a full day,

i had an adrenalin for about 2 months and i NEVER charged it and it still had a full bar left when i sold it

the new batteries are great

and lets say you did forget to charge it, you drive to the field right?

you cant really use manual mode as some huge advantage, cause it doesnt get used unless your gun is dead or screwed up

Cliff

[pumpamatic]

Wow, everybody is way too biased on this board. How many people have tried a Dark IR3? I'm guessing not too many, because they've just came out, and only a certain number have been put out so far. Nobody here seems very willing to admit that the SFL is having a few troubles. Hyper just wished to post his opinion, you aren't going to change his mind. Manual mode does seem a bit overrated, I mean I can keep fresh batteries in a 60 dollar hopper, if you own a 1500 dollar gun and can't keep the batteries charged, maybe your mommy should help prepare you for your weekly outing. I definetely love my classic mag, but I have shot angels, and will admit they are nice. Just because AGD is my favorite brand doesn't mean I can't covet other brands. Heck, if I had the money, you'd see me with an Angel backed up by my trusty old classic mag. I agree with many of you, when the new mods come out, the SFL will equal any Angel, but I do think it is poor quality to release a gun that you cannot say is perfected. And though you might say that all new guns have a few flaws, I find that unacceptable also. I will admit that most Angels I have seen will beat most SFL's anyday. AGD loyalty aside, it sounds as if the general amount of SFL's are less than what I have expected from AGD. This gun definetely needs to go back into the oven.

[bornl33t]

Originally posted by TITAN
lol

im 17 what do you care?

I just wanna know what I'm dealing with. No I know.

[2000Sabre]

This is a great thread and I think it's one of the reasons why Tom keeps AO alive. I can always apreciate a civil debate. All that being said I wanted to weigh in on the video vs. manual thing.

I think the AGD technical videos are great, it provides the user a wealth of information and enough detail to learn how his/her marker works inside and out. However, when the video you receive doesn't match the product in your hand it can be confusing and not as useful. Case in point, I bought an RT Pro and my video shows me how to assemble/disassemble an RT. Now I understand that they're not all that different but if you're new to paintball like I was you can get confused (as I was). I had to stop/start and rewind it several times to figure out what I was watching. Same with the E-Mag video. I bought an SFL and got a video for a standard E-Mag. Again, grip frame and valve are the same but body is totally different as well as the barrel and breach. My SFL also has a different software version than a standard E-mag.

Although it's great to have a video it doesn't to a lot of good if has outdated information in it and it's not kept up to date. I would expect for $1500 I would get a video specific to the product I purchased.

Secondly, a very detailed manual can come in handy when you don't have access to a TV and VCR, like when you're at the field and can't remember what that little adjustment was you saw in the video but you know you need to have it done.

Anybody that's purchased an AGD product would have to admit that at times their documentation has been pretty poor. I know when I purchased my RT Pro and Warp I was overly impressed with the documentation I received.

My point here is that it's little things like this that hurts AGD's reputation and it's something that they need to address if they're going to be considered among the elite paintball manufacturers. It's stuff like this that sets the really great companies apart from the all so rans.

Also, even though Shocktech does the milling, the SFL is still an AGD designed and built gun and it's their reputation that's at stake. It's in their own best interest to make sure it works perfectly out of the box and that little things like packaging and documentation are of the highest quality.

[Grey_Goose]

Hysperion...

Try a RaceGun... that's the real deal ;)

[hitech]

Originally posted by Hysperion
Well when I spend $1500 on a marker I don't.....and besides the ir3 is arguably more advanced then the sfl and it hasn't given me any problems out of the box....If you're happy with paying 15 bills for an incomplete marker, by all means buy an sfl with my blessing.

I understand not wanting problems. That's why I don't normally buy anything that is bleeding edge. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the "only" problem you were having was the SFL breaking brittle paint? If so, you don't really know if it was truly the SFL problem or something else (like just plain a** bad paint).

It's good that your IR3 is not giving you problems. There are other SFL owners are not having any problems either. I'll bet that there are IR3 owners with as big a problem as you are/were having with you SFL.

BTW, the level 10 mods are taking longer because Tom is taking the time to be sure they will accomplish the desired results. Most other manufactures don't put the effort into test to insure the "feature" performs the desired function.

[Rynoboy06]

I just want to say that the IR3's are tricked angels, with years of perfecting things behind them, more of an generational change than a whole new gun. The very original Angels were, if I can beleive half what I read, trash. Major issues. While the regular emag has been around for a while, and had any problems pretty much ironed out,a radically altered gun, with a whole new style of body, drastically unlike anything the company has ever done, with an experimental bolt,some new electronics (IE ACE), and a totally new feature never before seen (changable breeches), released a little early, is CERTAIN not to be as problem-free as the IR3. I don't think the SFL's should have been released yet, at least not to the public and not without a warning, but we who are so eager to defend TK's pride should remember that the valid comments of several less-than-ecstatic SFL owners only reflect this batch. This first run. I don't think it reflects well on AGD and Shocktech, but nobody remembers the gen 1 angels, do they?

[CNickerson]

WDP IR3- Techs in every nook and cranny of the world you can think of mean that if people have problems with the IR3's, they are more than likely gonna take it to their local tech and have it fixed right away instead of posting on a forum and awaiting an answer(therefore, you won't hear that much about problems). Plus, there are many more Angel IR3's out there, so you are gonna hear a lot of people saying how they love their new gun.

AGD/Shocktech SFL E-Mag - Around 50 sold to the public. About 5 people I can count(this is not conservative, this is an estimate of all the problems I've seen posted) have had problems. They post on this board because it means they can get in touch with the very few people that know about SFL's and how they work, they do not just go to their local tech and get it fixed up in a jiffy. Also because of the low amount sold, you don't hear about a ton of people talking about how they love their new gun.


Maybe I'm wrong, this is just the way I see it. However, I will accept that the SFL may have some problems, but from what I've seen, the extent is ball breakage, and this ball breakage is in cold weather. All other owners I've talked to have had great experiences.

[X-Plosive]

The E-matrix has been out a bit longer and also has interchangeable breeches.

[Rynoboy06]

You are right about the matrix - but do they actually make more than one breech? I know Bill Mills had to make a warp breech for it.

[gophermcse]

Yes the Matrix does have exchangable breaches <sp?>. Currently stock Matices come with an autococker threaded breach. Angel and Spyder threaded breaches are also available. The Matrix also had some growing pains that it had to live through as is apparently so for the SFL. It seems that most of those original problems have been worked out. I gotta say that I own neither the SFL nor the IR3 so won't weigh in on this debate. I just noted the Matrix comment and wanted to stick up for my marker of choice. Just remember that patience is a virtue and I'm sure Tom is working like heck to make mags the best they can be.

[Tom Sparkman]

Originally posted by hitech


No. However, I cannot understand wanting a color manual instead of the video. IMO (I'm never humble, can you tell?) the video is FAR superior to a manual. :D

Yeah, having a video is a great help at the field. ;)

When I bought my Mag 10 years ago my VCR ate the video, forcing me to get my info from a clueless shop owner.

I can't stand products that don't have a printed manual.
Tom

[CNickerson]

The mag isn't the only one. Worr Games cockers have(to my knowledge) come with a folded sheet of paper stapled together(maybe 4 pages) as their manual, and it gives absolutely no insight on how to maintain a cocker, one of the most complicated guns around. Now, the mag is one of the most simple designs around, and it comes with more documentation that this.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Tom Sparkman
When I bought my Mag 10 years ago my VCR ate the video, forcing me to get my info from a clueless shop owner.

I can't stand products that don't have a printed manual.
Tom

Clueless shop owner only? Well now you got us!

Manual? Want a printed one? Go here and select "print". Want a color one? Use a color printer! :D

http://www.airgun.com/downloads/emaginstructions.pdf

Progress made!

Sorry I just couldn't resist. :D