Knocking off the Emag trigger...

[cledford]

I'm a the proud owner of an Emag - but also run with an Intimidator, and a shocker. I found this post while cruising the PB Nation Timmy forum - looks like someone want to knock off the Emag trigger/Hall effect sensor.

Tom, I'm wondering did you patent the Emag trigger?

Here is the URL:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86332

Below is the post. Funny how things get copied...

-Calvin

CUT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>...

High tech replacement trigger switch
OK, after much playing, I have decided to do a little public opinion poll...

Is anyone interested in a replacement for the trigger switch that was fully electronic instead of mechanical?

The switch is a psuedo magnetic/hall effect type. The points (start/stop) would be electronically adjustable. Also, how the trigger performed would be adjustable. You could program the trigger so that any 'x' amount of forward movement was considered a release of the trigger, no matter where the physical position of the trigger was located. For example, you could hold down the trigger and barely release it forward and pull it back for the gun to fire... or you could barely pull the trigger back and release it just a bit - or any combination thereof.

This will still meet the NPPL and PanAm trigger rules (single pull and release required for firing one shot)... the pull and release points would be floating.

Since there is no mechanics involved here, there is nothing to ever wear out. It would install into the original switch location, require a new trigger (center) set screw (special) and would require soldering. Retail would be about $50.

The advantage of this setup? SPEED! How many times do you do a "drum roll" on the trigger, only to find that your fingers are just a bit out of sync. This would correct nearly all of that situation! Sometimes you pull really far and other times you don't. This would also be corrected so that every pull/release, not matter how small, or how far off from the throw of the trigger, the gun will fire.

Anyone interested?


__________________
Jim Drew, President -
Wicked Air Sportz

[cledford]

Oh, it gets even deeper - Jim from Wicked Air Sports claims to have never seen an Emag trigger and to have come up with the Hall effect idea all on his own. Hmmmm, sound way fishy to me. I wouldn't have faulted him from knocking off a great idea - but to purport to have come up with it by himself is a bit much.

-Calvin

[Paintballer86]

Originally posted by cledford
Oh, it gets even deeper - Jim from Wicked Air Sports claims to have never seen an Emag trigger and to have come up with the Hall effect idea all on his own.

oh yeah, that true, dont ever doubt Jim! [/scarcasm]

[cledford]

The more I thought about this Jim dude trying to come off like he just dreamed up the HES trigger system the madder I got. As long as Tom didn't patent the idea I wouldn't see a problem with him "porting" it to the Intimidator - but to come off as having dreamed it up on his own, with the Emag having been on the market for over a year now got me really angry. Here is my response to the guy. He is either really dishonest and trying to steal someone else's ideas - or is just plain worthless as an airsmith. I mean how can a guy who claims to be a custom airsmith not know about the HES trigger in the Emag? We're not talking about an obscure marker here, or one that's only been out for a short period of time.

Anyhow, here is my response to the guy at the PBNation site. I don't know him from adam, and he might be a great person/airsmith otherwise - but he really set me off with this nonsense.

SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Jim,

I wanted to post an open reply to the thread. First, I think your suggestion for a Hall Effect Sensor trigger mod for the timmy is an excellent proposal. As the proud owner of an Emag I am more then pleased with the HES based trigger system.

Assuming that Tom Kaye of Airgun did not patent (don't know one way or the other) the idea - I don't see why you shouldn't run with it. In all honesty - imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. That having been said, I would like to comment on you attempt to claim to have come up with the idea on your own - as there lies a problem in my opinion. I believe that there is nothing wrong with knocking off someone else's idea, as long as they did not patent it. But regardless, it is very despicable to take someone else's idea and attempt to present it as your own - which is what I see occurring here. The Emag has been on the market for over a year now. The HES based trigger system is the second biggest attribute of the market, right after the recharge rate of the RT valve. (Some may argue that it's actually more important)

To attempt to present the HES idea as your own based on misleading statements such as "I have never seen an Emag before, so I am not sure how the trigger does work in that gun" is ridiculous in my opinion. You may very well have not physically held/examined an Emag - but to make such a statement to (IMHO) appear to have developed the HES idea on your own is plain dishonorable. The Emag and HES trigger system has been in production and on the market for over a year, and you - a paintball custom airsmith (I'm assuming who considers himself "worth his salt.") are attempting to appear to have no knowledge of the revolutionary nature of it's firing system? I (getting up on my soapbox) proclaim that you are a disingenuous person who is plagiarizing others work to appear capable - or, if (as difficult as it is to envision) you really didn't know about the nature of the Emag trigger, you must really be weak (with a capital W) as an airsmith.
With all due respect - I would love to have a HES trigger on my Timmy, but presenting the appearance to have come up with the idea on you own infuriates me. What gives dude? Can't give a few props when they are in order? At least ignore Airgun designs if you can't give credit, but don't obscure things to appear to have had the idea on your own. In my opinion the difference between porting an idea and plagiarism is the intent... I wouldn't have thought anything about trying to put a HES trigger on the Timmy, but your last post really changed my opinion of this whole matter.

-Calvin Ledford

[shartley]

Now to play the Devil’s Advocate….

You can come up with a product or idea that has ALREADY been done, and STILL have thought of it all by yourself. If an individual did not know about the current product, or idea, it is quite conceivable that they COULD have thought of it as well.

Look at the Telephone, Automobile, and Airplane (as well as MANY other great products)…. Most of them were being developed independently and at the same time.. on different sides of the world. Would that make the person to actually patent the idea first be the ONLY one to think of it? Not likely…. Good ideas are OFTEN though of by MANY people.

To think Tom Kaye is the ONLY person who could have independently thought of that type of system is foolish at best….

Now with that said, I personally could care less about it. But to say the guy is out right lying about his claims of “independent” thought on that matter is wrong. He COULD have come up with it all by himself. And the fact that Tom Kaye already DID it, does not mean the idea was “stolen” or copied.

However, now that it is KNOWN that it has already been done, he should change his “marketing” and “horn blowing” a bit. But that is a different issue. But one NOT related to him coming up with the idea on his own… which he could have. He is just a little late…

And if what I suggest is correct, someone might think about apologizing….

[cledford]

Shartley,

You make some good points - actually I considered most of them before flying off the handle, but then decided to anyhow.

We don't live in a vacuum anymore, and it's not like these 2 ideas came about in opposite corners of the world, at the same time. I'm not assuming that Tom Kaye was the only one to ever think of the HES based trigger. He did mass produce a marker using it, and has successfully sold it for a year. I'm susposed to believe that someone didn't notice it for the last 12 months and then spontaneously had the same idea, all the while running a paintball business? The Emag has been around and is well documented. You would think anyone who owns their own paintgun customizing business would have to be in touch with the goings on in the industry - I can't see it any other way.

You points may cast a shadow of a doubt in a court of law :) (metaphor) But in the court of public opinion I don't think it's a winnable case. What you're asserting may well be what happened, and pigs might fly on day too. Anything is possible, b ut in this case the probability is what I'm looking at. I don't think I'll end up owing an apology, but will provide one, if and when it is appropriate.

-Calvin

[MagDog68]

Originally posted by shartley
Now to play the Devil’s Advocate….

You can come up with a product or idea that has ALREADY been done, and STILL have thought of it all by yourself. If an individual did not know about the current product, or idea, it is quite conceivable that they COULD have thought of it as well.

Look at the Telephone, Automobile, and Airplane (as well as MANY other great products)…. Most of them were being developed independently and at the same time.. on different sides of the world. Would that make the person to actually patent the idea first be the ONLY one to think of it? Not likely…. Good ideas are OFTEN though of by MANY people.

To think Tom Kaye is the ONLY person who could have independently thought of that type of system is foolish at best….

Now with that said, I personally could care less about it. But to say the guy is out right lying about his claims of “independent” thought on that matter is wrong. He COULD have come up with it all by himself. And the fact that Tom Kaye already DID it, does not mean the idea was “stolen” or copied.

However, now that it is KNOWN that it has already been done, he should change his “marketing” and “horn blowing” a bit. But that is a different issue. But one NOT related to him coming up with the idea on his own… which he could have. He is just a little late…

And if what I suggest is correct, someone might think about apologizing….

shartley -
Your point is well made, however I doubt many Paintball Customizers have no knowledge of the E-Mag's HES Trigger System - it is one of the biggest selling points, not to mention the feature most reported on in any publication reviewing the gun.
I am no Autococker enthusiast, but I still know about the hinge trigger and the RACE frame. And I am not a professional. If anyone can believe this person had no knowledge of the E-Mag HES Trigger system, I have an Automag Low Pressure System I am dying to sell you!

~Fred

[mykroft]

Well, it's one method of running a switch, well known to electronic techs. But considering the amount of publicity the E-Mag trigger has had, I can't see him not knowing. SP is doing something similar for the Impulse as well.

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by mykroft
SP is doing something similar for the Impulse as well.

Yeah and I have seen it. It's nice, but not nearly as adjustable as the Emag.