I'll be a Mule from the UK...

[cledford]

All,

I'll be traveling to the UK on business the 14-21st. I'm planning on picking up an Extreme upgrade for my Emag while there, and am willing to grab: Extreme kits, modules, and ACEs (not sure if these are available) while there.

If you live in the DC area and need anything let me know. I'll pick it up and save you the shipping charge.

RobAGD will vouch for my honesty - I think :)

-Calvin

[AGD]

Contrary to popular belief they are not selling the extremes or parts yet in Europe. The ones you see here on the forum are part of our Beta Test Program and have been provided to specific people for specific reasons. For example the guys in Norway got the guns because of cold weather testing that they could do.

The more demanding you guys get that products be perfect out of the box, and for that matter you want a nice box too, the longer it takes. Don't tell me you want superbolts and then complain we put them out to soon.

AGD

[Potatoboy]

Tom, maybe it's just me, I kinda dig the plain white box.

[AGD]

I LOVE YOU Tater!! :):)

AGD

[Clare]

I LOVE YOU Tater!!

what a kodak moment
:D

[AGDRules]

Lets see... a box with all the specals... or a gun which we cant wait to be released... I really coudlnt care about a box :) you could send me it in plastic wrap! hehe

[govnamac]

Actually, I'd prefer a box that sings your name when you open it for the first time. Just imagine opening your new gun for the first time and being greeted by that. Think thats possible Tom?

[shartley]

Ouch!

I am not posting this to cause problems, but because it truly concerns me.

Quoted from Tom Kaye:

The more demanding you guys get that products be perfect out of the box, and for that matter you want a nice box too, the longer it takes. Don't tell me you want superbolts and then complain we put them out to soon.
Now, I love AGD and their products (the older ones), but for a company to first listen to its customers when they say they want a new product (and new products are basic good business) but then when THEY release it before it is ready and it has WAY too many problems they blame customer complaints on the CUSTOMERS…. Come on…. Talk about the height of denial…..

And I don’t think demanding that a product be perfect out of the box is a bad thing. We demand that of almost every other “high end” product we purchase, and for good reason. When I buy a product I demand it be what I thought I was buying, and if that means it WORKS and works correctly, so be it… and if it doesn’t, I return it and demand one that is correct or my money back. I don’t want excuses, I don’t want promises. The promises were already made when I purchased the product… were they delivered?

Let’s be a little realistic please. If any other CEO made an open statement like that, their shares would drop and most likely they would be out of a job… and fast. Their competitors would also take that statement and run with it…. And for good reason, it is bad PR, bad business, and a bad way of thinking. AGD claims they purchased AO to listen to its people, to get feedback, and to get comments about their products and paintball in general… I hope you ARE listening.

You are in essence saying that “Quality” is only as good as the customers “let” you make it, and that if your products fall short for ANY reason, it is the fault of the customers and not AGD… after all, THEY made you release it before it was truly ready. Oh, that is a good one….

Now, as for packaging…

FACT… it takes NO longer to have good looking packaging than it does to have a good product…. actually, it takes LESS time. And they are usually done at the same time by two different teams. So if you release a product, you DID have time for packaging design, promotion design, etc. since those things are done at the same time as the final development of the product and first production run (or slightly before). That would shoot the “good looking box slowing down product” theory out of the water.

There is simply no viable reason NOT to have good looking packaging (even more so for $1400 products). The only reasons I can think of for NOT having good looking packaging are that AGD just does not care, does not have the money, or does not realize the value of good packaging (which in itself indices a problem).. but to blame it on making the product release date longer (and directly making that a customer fault), come on… that is just not true.

Tom, please…. You make some great products, no doubt, but statements like that just don’t wash…..

[Dubstar112]

Taters are always good with catsup.... hmmhmhmm.

[Clare]

I don't understand this obsession with the appearance of a box. a BOX for crying out loud!

[bond1313]

I agree CaPoEiRa, its a box who cares its the stuff inside that matters.

[shartley]

CaPoEiRa
The obsession with packaging is about basic product presentation and marketing. It also shows a bit about the company that sells the product. And that is very important when selling items over $5.

There are many GOOD reasons why a little extra care should be given to packaging design.. but not ONE good reason to keep an expensive product in a simple white box and wrapped in bubble wrap. Not one.

Any first year marketing and sales student can tell you all about the importance of visuals, and they will outsell “brand loyalty” any day of the week…. Even more so with Paintball since we have already seen here on AO that with Paintball that phrase (brand loyalty) only truly applies to zealots. The majority of the marketplace will buy what they “think” is the best, what “looks” the best, what is packaged the best, and what is “marketed” the best. And even more when the product actually does what it is suppose to. This is simple business.

Now take an expensive product with MAJOR amounts of hype, and sell it in a crappy box, and THEN have the product have a high failure rate….. you have a recipe for disaster. No ifs, ands, or buts.

I hope that people don’t think that those complaining about this are “dissing” AGD, because they are not. But when AGD buys AO so they can use it as a sounding board and measuring stick, it would be in their best interest to listen… and that means to those who know what they are talking about.. even if it may show that AGD is not doing something correctly (or not the most effectively).

I for one do not HATE AGD, I love their Markers, but I will not turn a blind eye for the sake of “Praise the All Mighty AGD”…. What would that actually help? Nothing. Only by being honest and calling it like it is, will AGD benefit from owning this forum.

And there are MANY reasons why products either “make it” or “don’t” and product packaging is part of those reasons. It is an accumulative effect of many factors, and to disregard any one (or several) parts of the equation is a bad idea… no matter how “popular” your product is on your own forum. There is a HUGE world out there and trust me, AGD does not stay in business because its forum members buy its products….. it is weather the general public does.. and to the general public, packaging IS important.

I hope this helps in some way…. We are not trying to be a problem, but attempting to correct one.

[cledford]

Tom,

I got the impression that the Extremes were being sold because AGD Europe is advertising them at their web-site. I had checked their online store, and they're listed - I didn't see a note saying they were out of stock, but that may be my fault.

Regarding the packaging debate and other things. I'll say that I'm fine with a plan white box - but know the Extreme is targeted at the Angel crowd. For what ever problems WDP has with their engineering, the marketing dept is TOP-NOTCH.

Unfortunately, AGD will have to compete with the type of "polish" to the end product (fancy packaging - and manual) to a certain extent. When people pay a $1000 plus for a marker, they are looking for the WDP experience - multimedia if you will :)

Shartley I do agree with some of your points, I think AGD has been accused in the past of being "engineering" oriented. (Great for us!) In a larger business there is room/money for a parallel marketing group, but that may not be the case with their business. (nitch market) Since they are attempting to move to the next level in that area - it's taking a little while longer to ramp up. I'm sure WPD put a lot of time and/or money into their marketing plan/base - but now I bet since the basics are set, it runs a lot more quickly.

I do feel your pain - I can't wait for the Extremes.

-Calvin

[thecavemankevin]

i say leave the box for now, put it in the same white box with foam rubber cut to the gun size. Now perhaps a nice sticker on top of the box would be nice (say a pic of the product you are buying). But there is no reason to wig out as long as it is packed safely and works!

[MagDog68]

Anyone else think shartley suffers from a god complex? Maybe we should let him run the company.

~Fred

[dansim]

i agree with shartley he posted that quote before i could but i dont care about the box i could see how if it was going to a paintball shop then yes the box is important but if your sellin it to your magaholics then just give them a plain white box

[Clare]

and I'll still say it again, a box is a box is a box..and so on and so forth. I do agree that the video/manual could be improved upon but that's about it...but since I'm not a marketing and sales student what would I know! :rolleyes:

[shartley]

Anyone else think shartley suffers from a god complex? Maybe we should let him run the company.
And what does that have to do with any issue(s) brought up?

You want to attack issues, fine.. have at it. But I don’t see you even attempting to contribute in a constructive manner to ANY of the issues brought up in this thread…. not at all. You think little jabs like that bother me? Do you know anything about me? Or is this simply because I stand up and say what I feel and back it up with actual knowledge, first hand experience, and logical/rational debate… even if it is against the “feel good” crowd?

How about this, focus on what was said, make a logical and rational argument on the issues and topics discussed, and leave your personal “diagnoses” of people out of it. You will end up looking more like the intelligent person I am sure you actually are.

My posts although they may say things people may not want to hear, are NOT disrespectful, attacks on anyone, or personal “jabs”. I would appreciate it if others would keep theirs the same. I don’t feel badly towards anyone who does not share my opinions, beliefs, or statements… such is life. But I am mature enough to know it is NOT a personal thing, and I don’t make it into one.

Thank you.

[cphilip]

Ok lets stick to the issue and stop the personal attacks. Opinions you don't like? Well ignore them or intelligently debate the points.

Me? Do I hear a Box design contest brewing? :D

[MagDog68]

shartley -
I say this because everytime there is an issue we are graced with your longwinded holier-than-thou speeches.

I don't add anything to this debate because I could care less about the box it comes in. I do my purchasing online and the box will be a scarce memory about 3 seconds after the package arrives on my doorstep.

Do you know how much it costs to produce a pack of cigarettes? About half a cent. Do you know where the other 6 dollars goes on that pack? Taxes and marketing! I don't want to pay any more for my paintball equipment to quell the moaning of a few people that feel AGD isn't "sparkley" enough!

And as far as this "personal attack" goes - deal with it. People make personal attacks on this board every day. If you think you are special, I've got a bridge to sell you.

~Fred

[shartley]

CaPoEiRa
I hope you did not take my comments as an insult in any way toward you.. they were not. I can understand your position and opinions on the “box” issue… and that is fine. However, you did bring up a good point, you are NOT a sales and marketing student…. I don’t even think you are associated with the process in any way, are you?

This is also NOT a slam, but a relevant fact. The same as I am NOT an Airsmith.. and because of this I would never begin to try to explain WHY things are done the way they are with Markers (on a mechanical level)… it is just beyond my scope of knowledge. However, I could sit here all day and argue about it (mechanical stuff), but realize that any points I would make would simply be irrelevant since I don’t really know the subject matter.

Would that make ME irrelevant? No. Would that make my feelings irrelevant? No. But it would make my points of argument a bit groundless and I can assure you that if I took those stands (mechanical) in the “technical” forum, I would be hung out to dry.

Simply put, a box is not just a box. It is wonderful that you don’t care about those things, but the average person does. And when you are selling your product to the general public, it is only smart to do what has been proven to be the effective way…. No matter what a few loyal customers think. How about this? Would you NOT buy the product if it was in a nice box? Well, I can assure you that sitting on a shelf in a store, that box DOES matter…. If it was your company would you want to chance the loss in sales that could be easily avoided by good packaging, or sit and complain that everyone else is just silly and doesn’t “get it”…… Who would truly be silly then?

It is all about business… and many times personal opinions have to be set aside to make the smart business move and decision.

I hope this explains it a bit better, and again, I was never intending to insult you…

[Miscue]

Having to make a box purty is catering to marketing drones... but yeah it can help a bit. Typical AGD buyer is in-the-know and doesn't need a fru-fru picture on the box to tell them what's inside. :) "Yuck, that LS-1 engine came in an ugly crate. I don't want it..." Those who do need that already got a Spyder or Angel to begin with.

Screw the purty box for now, gimme Level 10! Aesthetics are fine and all after all the important cool stuff that actually does something for your gun comes out - not until then.

[liigod]

forget youalll, i want it in bubble wrap in a brown paper bag!

[MagDog68]

Wow - miscue, where the heck have you been? I haven't seen you post in the longest time!

~Fred

[Miscue]

Originally posted by liigod
forget youalll, i want it in bubble wrap in a brown paper bag!

Word up! :p

[Miscue]

Originally posted by MagDog68
Wow - miscue, where the heck have you been? I haven't seen you post in the longest time!

~Fred

I've been around. Just been really busy with school and social life stuff... (Yep, I have a social life) :)

[bofh]

Originally posted by shartley
Simply put, a box is not just a box. It is wonderful that you don’t care about those things, but the average person does. And when you are selling your product to the general public, it is only smart to do what has been proven to be the effective way…. No matter what a few loyal customers think. How about this? Would you NOT buy the product if it was in a nice box? Well, I can assure you that sitting on a shelf in a store, that box DOES matter…. If it was your company would you want to chance the loss in sales that could be easily avoided by good packaging, or sit and complain that everyone else is just silly and doesn’t “get it”…… Who would truly be silly then?


Shartley, while I'm not involved with Marketing or Sales anymore, I think the box issue isn't as revelant for AGD E-mag, but would be much more important for the Superbolt or I-frame.

My reasoning behind this, is the markers are on display without packaging on racks, and the boxes aren't seen until the purchasing time. While Markers are different from firearms, they are normaly sold the same way.

When's the last time you saw a firearm package on display? Firearms and markers should be what is being compared against in sales methods. Firearm boxes (I've only bought Shotguns, so I don't know about handguns.) are very plain, simple boxes that are very much like the AGD box I got, down to the reclosabilty and foam inserts. Winchester hasn't changed their boxes for years.

As for things that hang where the customer can touch them, ie. non-marker items over 5 bucks. Everything you said hangs true about the packaging (well, because you're right) You might even be right about the Markers packaging, but I disagree.

[Miscue]

Good point. I don't remember ever seeing a bunch of boxes on display at a tourny or at a store. The gun itself is on display. Upon purchase, they throw it in a box... you don't see it until it's sold. :)

[cphilip]

Well I suggest you go look at the Angel forum here and see the stink they make about the pretty box. Do we care? Maybe not. Could we be suseptable on some level? I think perhaps we could be but our Ego's will not allow us to admit it. That Angel box is one pretty box. Now a Cocker box ain't much and they sell anyway. Go figure.

[shartley]

bofh
Great post.. thanks.

You bring up some good points. For longarms the packaging is a bit different than for sidearms (in most cases). And that would actually make my point even stronger if comparing Paintball Markers to sidearms.

You are correct, in the stores when looking at (let’s say a Beretta95F) you will see it displayed in the glass case with NO box (but sometimes even IN the box open to display the entire package). Now, when you BUY it, the dealer will pull it from the case and bring it out back, put it in its box and bring it all to you (assuming you have gone through the appropriate time frame laws). What you will get is a VERY nice plastic case with Beretta seals stamped into the case, fully locking, nice foam padding custom cut for the handgun as well as 2 clips (and many times they come WITH the gun).. and all for about $600. (the last I checked…. It has been a while, so please do not hold me to that price.) And how much does the E-Mag cost? Can you pick one up for $600 and simply buy paintballs and fire it? No?

So I guess the point I would make is that it is the overall impression of the product form ads you see, reviews you read, how it looks on the wall or in a display case, AND what you get it in along with any collateral stuff….. it is ALL important. And I have talked to dealers who verify this, and admitted that they sold certain products (to include markers) that once the company changed its packaging, it simply sold better… hard to argue with that.

When a company is trying to sell quality, it should continue from its actual product, its marketing, and all the way through to the packaging and collateral materials they give with it.

Take rings for example… go look at them in a display case.. pick out a $100 ring. Ask them to package it. You MAY get a white cardboard box with cotton in it.. or you MAY get a nice box with hinge, velvet of similar lining, etc. Now look at a $2,000 ring, and ask them to package it for you….. What do you think you will get? See my point? It is a part of the process. It may not be the ONLY thing that made you pick the product, but I am sure you would feel odd to pay that much for a nice ring and get it in a white cardboard box.. at least I would.

Watches are the same. Heck.. just about ANY high ticket item is the same (sorry Miscue, you can not compare engines to other products, it is not an accurate comparison).

I guess it is all about what you want to project to your buying market. And what makes us buy a product has a lot to do with perceptions and things most people don’t even think about… but a smart company WILL.

[Croix71]

Wow, the post started off as Cledford being a mule and transformed into a debate about boxes?!?! :eek:

Anywho, thanks for the offer Cledford. :D

As for the boxes, for the AO members the box won't matter much. But for those who are unfamiliar with AGD products it couldn't hurt to present the Mags in a nicer way. Reputation goes a long way, prime example Brass Eagle. I try to be open minded but it's been ingrained in my head that they're the company that makes them funny lookin guns. :D

Computer hardware/software companies have 2 boxes. They have a the more expensive retail version with a nice box and user friendly instructions and the other is the cheaper OEM plain brown box with just the basic informations. Can this be incorporated into the box debate?

[Mango]

Shartley has made an excellent point and I agree with him 110%! He said everything that my friends and I have been discussing between ourselves.

He should seriously be brought in to AGD for some consulting work. They need it.

[Krazy Ivan]

Do you remember when...I can't remember his name, but the other guy on here bought an IR3, everyone was like OoOo pretty box! A pretty box is cool to look at, but hey, after you take it out of the box where does the box go? Trash or buried in the closet never to be seen again!

I don't think that much time if any should be spent on the box, I like the one my minimag came in, total white, with the AGD and MiniMag logo on it. Simple yet comforting :D

[bofh]

Originally posted by shartley
You bring up some good points. For longarms the packaging is a bit different than for sidearms (in most cases). And that would actually make my point even stronger if comparing Paintball Markers to sidearms.

Take rings for example… go look at them in a display case.. pick out a $100 ring. Ask them to package it. You MAY get a white cardboard box with cotton in it.. or you MAY get a nice box with hinge, velvet of similar lining, etc. Now look at a $2,000 ring, and ask them to package it for you….. What do you think you will get? See my point? It is a part of the process. It may not be the ONLY thing that made you pick the product, but I am sure you would feel odd to pay that much for a nice ring and get it in a white cardboard box.. at least I would.

Watches are the same. Heck.. just about ANY high ticket item is the same (sorry Miscue, you can not compare engines to other products, it is not an accurate comparison).

It all depends what you compare the items against. I picked shotguns because that's what I think is most like markers in the selling. I also know squat about handguns. :) $500 shotguns and $5000 shotguns come in cardboard boxes. They normally give you a case along with the expensive gun, however. :)

However as for the Ring and Watch, these aren't accurate comparisons either. These are jewerly, and made to be looked at. That is their main purpose. I don't consider Markers to be made to look at, otherwise they should have inlay (hmmm.) (This is also a huge contention point, which I think is the real root of this issue) As for an Engine, I would consided that an accurate comparisson if it could be carried, and didn't need a crate to prevent damage. Ferrari engines however still come in crates...

Now, while I don't think that the current boxes are an issue, I also agree that a pretty box would not hurt. Someone would have to figure out if it would be worth it to develop a new box.

[MagDog68]

Originally posted by bofh

...Someone would have to figure out if it would be worth it to develop a new box.

Well, shartley did run a rather successful Intelliframe Box Design Contest - maybe this is the start of a new AO competition.

I still say the box isn't the problem though. When the guns start to look better - that is when people will be drawn to them. Once the extremes come out - that is when you should start spicing up your advertising and packaging. But putting the same product in a new box isn't going to fool anyone.

~Fred

[bofh]

Originally posted by MagDog68


Well, shartley did run a rather successful Intelliframe Box Design Contest - maybe this is the start of a new AO competition.

When I said, "Worth it to develop a new box" I didn't mean the actually design, but more of the concept of change. would it be worth it to change the way they look now, and change the amount of boxes they have on hand, the extra cost of four color printing, perhaps the cost of wood cases instead of cardboard. Different sizes, would mean different size packaging, different shipping costs. Different amounts of recognition.

Even if AGD thinks that a better box would help sales, the have to decide if would help sales enough sales to make it worth it.

[Potatoboy]

Originally posted by AGD
I LOVE YOU Tater!! :):)

AGD

Yeah, I rock. ;)

[Rooster]

a whole lot of time, money, and effort into something that is going to hit my fire barrel in about 2 min after i get home.

Now selling the gun with a pelican, or some type of usable gun case is a good idea, but a cardboard box? Thats fire starter.

[Ityl]

I like the idea of the $1400 gun coming with a plastic case. It doesn't have to be a high end one, just a case with precut foam that fits the gun and barrel. That would be a great selling point.

[MagDog68]

BTW -
How many of you out there have purchased the latest version of Nike Air Jordans? They are $200 just because they come in a cool box?!?! No Thanks!

~Fred

[shartley]

bofh

However as for the Ring and Watch, these aren't accurate comparisons either. These are jewerly, and made to be looked at. That is their main purpose. I don't consider Markers to be made to look at, otherwise they should have inlay (hmmm.) (This is also a huge contention point, which I think is the real root of this issue) As for an Engine, I would consided that an accurate comparisson if it could be carried, and didn't need a crate to prevent damage. Ferrari engines however still come in crates...
Actually as you eluded to… the “looks” of a marker have been a debating point for a long time. And it has even been proved here on AO that one of the major selling points about other brands of markers is how they LOOK, and the ways you can change that to your particular tastes, etc. Markers are like cars on this point, to disregard the “look at my pretty marker” effect is missing an important marketing fact. Markers, Cars, and many other high end and visually seen products are indeed worn (or displayed) the same as jewelry… and the reasons the consumer buys them are often the same.

Now, as for the Ferrari engines…. You are talking apples and oranges. The Marker would be considered the “Ferrari”, not the engine. And the bolt and other internal parts would be the “engine”. Now, Ferraris are not normally delivered to the customer in a crate.. they are washed waxed, detailed, and driven by someone of class… or at a minimum sold by someone looking like they have some class, from a showroom that is also VERY nice. You don’t see them sold from falling down barns.. but heck, it would be the same car.. right? ;)

My point is that for higher end products, you expect more from the process. Go into a High Priced auto dealer and see how they are dressed, how they treat you, how the place looks, etc. Now go to an old used car lot.. and do the same thing. The cars you will see will all (hopefully.. LOL) drive you to the store for a gallon of milk, but how the experience is will be totally different. The same is true for buying a Rolex or a Timex…. I personally am not just buying the product, I am buying part of the company.. I am buying the image.. I am buying the total package.. And the more I pay for a product, the more I expect out of the package… not JUST the product.


Now, while I don't think that the current boxes are an issue, I also agree that a pretty box would not hurt. Someone would have to figure out if it would be worth it to develop a new box.
And that is also the point. Noone is saying that the markers will NOT sell in a white box…. That was never the issue. The issue was if the addition of a nicely designed and presented package would HELP sales… and that is an unequivocal YES.

And when making business decisions we must weigh first if it will HURT us… this case it will not… then if it will actually HELP us.. in this case YES.. and then we determine the cost for such a decision… and again, I would be willing to bet it would be worth it. By having a nice box you don’t turn anyone off, but you DO by not having one. I think that makes the decision a pretty easy one to make.

But it is up to each company what they want to do…. However, what can a company really say in its defense when consumers see even LOW end markers coming in nice packaging…. And other HIGH end markers coming in nice packaging… hmmmm I would say that nothing they could use as an excuse would really matter, because it would only be an excuse… and people don’t buy excuses…. Well unless they are a diehard AGD Customer with blinders on…. But the market is not made up of those, and the market is where you live or die….

I can not count the times when people have stated that they were doing alright because their product WAS selling….. but they were shocked to see that taking a little advice made their sales increase by as much as 700% or more (and darn near overnight), and they could have been doing that all along…. So, as a matter of fact, they were NOT doing well at all, but didn’t know any better. They were losing money. So, I guess how “good” you are doing is all in how you look at it….

Never settle…. And for a company that sells itself on quality, and being the best….. you better believe that a white box is settling…. Again, when making business decisions we often have to remove ourselves from what we “know” to be true, and focus on what the general marketplace “thinks” is true, that in itself will dictate the better move on our part.

MagDog68
Thank you, you actually helped prove my point.

I still say the box isn't the problem though. When the guns start to look better - that is when people will be drawn to them. Once the extremes come out - that is when you should start spicing up your advertising and packaging. But putting the same product in a new box isn't going to fool anyone.
You openly admit that part of the issue is looks. You don’t think it is how the box looks, but how the marker itself looks. And that is all tied together, believe it or not. And you even said that once the new product comes out that is when you start spicing up your advertising and packaging. This indicates that it needs it.

However I would contend that the time to start is not AFTER, but WHILE. Any good advertising campaign is done well in advance of your intended “sale” period. And all collateral materials (packaging, manuals, etc.) are also done in advance… WHILE the product is being finished. Not after it is totally completed.. that is just a waste of time, and time is money. They are done together like a dance.. or actually more like a good Thanksgiving Dinner…. You start each part of the meal so that they all get done at about the same time. Same with product development, marketing and sales.

But we often forget that AGD already has FANTASTIC products. And putting an existing product in a new package is not about fooling anyone. It is about rebuilding an image that has been lost… and sorry, it HAS been lost for the most part. It is also about changing to match the times and the customers. Can you see Coke or Pepsi still using the same marketing techniques they did back just after WWII? Heck, the product is still the same, right? And you would still get diehard customers to buy it, but would their sales continue to increase? Highly doubtful.

Again, it is not about fooling anyone, it is about marketing to them. It is about rebuilding an image that should never have been lost, but was. It is about not only keeping up with the competition, but doing BETTER than they are. And AGD already had a great line of products that can compete head to head with anyone’s… they just don’t LOOK that way all the time.

As for Air Jordan’s…. Apples and oranges… they are sold in boxes that match industry standard for their product. Now if all the other top selling marker manufacturers are giving customers pretty packaging, THAT would be industry standard…. And that is what should be done…. Or BETTER THAN industry standard.

bofh part II
(yes, I have been busy and people have been typing.. LOL)

When I said, "Worth it to develop a new box" I didn't mean the actually design, but more of the concept of change. would it be worth it to change the way they look now, and change the amount of boxes they have on hand, the extra cost of four color printing, perhaps the cost of wood cases instead of cardboard. Different sizes, would mean different size packaging, different shipping costs. Different amounts of recognition.

Even if AGD thinks that a better box would help sales, the have to decide if would help sales enough sales to make it worth it.
You are dead on!

In my opinion it WOULD be worth it. Even if they took less per sale, it would be worth it. The “tickle” factor can not be dismissed as a great selling point. And that begins the moment you get your product and the first thing you see. Be honest, you get more tickles from a nice box than a simple white one….. and that was proven by the Angel guys (and countless other manufacturers… otherwise ALL products would come in simple white boxes… but they don’t). The tickles involve every aspect of the experience, not just the marker itself. ;)

(Added: Why do you think we wrap our Christmas Presents with fancy paper, bows, etc.? Tickle factor. The presents would be exactly the same left unwrapped, or wrapped in paper bags.. but we don’t get the same tickles that way. ;))

And the more products you get out there, the more they are seen. And the happier the customer is with the product and impressed with the entire experience (which does include the packaging and all collateral materials) the more they will push your product.. it is an endless cycle.

As for shipping costs, I don’t really see that as an issue. The heaviest part of the package will most likely still be the product, and the rest will only amount to small (if any) changes…. Which normally get passed to the customer anyway. And when you buy a $1500 product, Shipping is usually not your first concern and well worth a couple extra dollars… at least in my book.

Rooster

a whole lot of time, money, and effort into something that is going to hit my fire barrel in about 2 min after i get home.

Now selling the gun with a pelican, or some type of usable gun case is a good idea, but a cardboard box? Thats fire starter.
Not everyone tosses out the boxes things came in. And definitely not great looking ones. That is a personal choice for each consumer, but it is also a choice that most successful manufacturers choose to act on. How a product is packaged says as much about the company and product as the product itself does. Like it or not.

Also the average consumer takes in every aspect of the experience, openly or subliminally. And if you can avoid any potentially bad thoughts by making a pretty box… it is a good idea to do so. Having a pretty box is never a LOSE situation, but NOT having one can be. You can play whatever odds you like… but MY recommendation will always be the sure thing, if one is available… and in this case, one is.

[MagDog68]

shartley -
see my response below...
Originally posted by shartley

MagDog68
Thank you, you actually helped prove my point.

You openly admit that part of the issue is looks. You don’t think it is how the box looks, but how the marker itself looks. And that is all tied together, believe it or not. And you even said that once the new product comes out that is when you start spicing up your advertising and packaging. This indicates that it needs it.

My point is that the Automag's look is stale and it needs to be spiced up. That being said I do not believe much can be done with the present product that will help its image as drastically as we would like. There is a bad stereotype among paintballers regarding the Mag's preformance and I don't think flashy boxes will help that.

However I would contend that the time to start is not AFTER, but WHILE. Any good advertising campaign is done well in advance of your intended “sale” period. And all collateral materials (packaging, manuals, etc.) are also done in advance… WHILE the product is being finished. Not after it is totally completed.. that is just a waste of time, and time is money. They are done together like a dance.. or actually more like a good Thanksgiving Dinner…. You start each part of the meal so that they all get done at about the same time. Same with product development, marketing and sales.


Obviously the ad campaign should start well in advance of the release of the product. Look at 'The Blair Witch Project,' which was promoted for months prior to release and made a fortune off of what was basically a flimsy movie. However, as you stated we are beyond AGD's present products...my opinion was strictly regarding the Extremes (which I agree should be aggressivley advertised).

But we often forget that AGD already has FANTASTIC products. And putting an existing product in a new package is not about fooling anyone. It is about rebuilding an image that has been lost… and sorry, it HAS been lost for the most part. It is also about changing to match the times and the customers. Can you see Coke or Pepsi still using the same marketing techniques they did back just after WWII? Heck, the product is still the same, right? And you would still get diehard customers to buy it, but would their sales continue to increase? Highly doubtful.

I am not disagreeing that AGD has lost its image either - I am simply stating that the damage to the Automag's repuation is more than skin deep (whether this is justified or not is irrelevant). People believe what they see in the industry - and what they don't see is Automags in use in high end competitions. They don't see AGD products on the front covers of their favorite magazines or in the website reviews. What they do see is alot of misinformation regarding its preformance. And this is very difficult to overcome in the paintball industry - where there are few reliable and objective sources of information to quell stereotypes.

Simply advertising it will not rebuild the AGD image. However - when they release their new product that has addressed the stereotypes (real and fictional), I believe that is a good time for them to rebuild the Automag name. When the Extremes come out AGD should use them as the flagship for a new AGD image! Only then will aggressivley advertising the existing product line make sense.

...

As for Air Jordan’s…. Apples and oranges… they are sold in boxes that match industry standard for their product. Now if all the other top selling marker manufacturers are giving customers pretty packaging, THAT would be industry standard…. And that is what should be done…. Or BETTER THAN industry standard.

I guess you haven't seen a pair of NIKE Air Jordans lately. The shoes come in a silvery metallic breifcase that looks more like something from James Bond than a shoe box. This may attract some of the status-seekers, but I am happy with my 30 dollar Airwalks.

I am not disagreeing with you on packaging a new Prodcut differently and going all out on advertising the new products - which will in turn help the whole AGD line - I am just a little leary about trying to prop up the AutoMag's image with just a shimery box.


~Fred

[TheTramp]

Personaly I don't really care about boxes or packaging when it comes to paintball stuff. Most of the time I see the items out of their boxes and in a display case.

I can understand that AGD would want to produce a nice box for those who do care about these things but it would be nice if the products were avalable for sale as soon as they were ready. I suggest putting them on the on-line store as soon as possible with or without snazzy packaging. We could be using (and paying for)the products while they were still being packaged for regular retail.

[oldsoldier]

While we are on the issue of advertising strategies, how about ads? I agree that a pretty box may sell, but, as it was stated, you usually dont see the box till AFTER the sale. Does that asthetically impact us? Yes. Does it affect the purchase? No, unless you basae your purchase solely on packaging, which would be foolish. Remember people, more and more folks shop online now, so,to hit THAT market, you need to advertise towards THAt medium. Because when the product arrives, it really doesnt matter how it was packaged. So, IMHO, AGD should do more advertising in magazines, at shows, set up booths at tourneys, etc. This will hit a larger audience than a simple box will. THIS will be money well spent. And, before you flame this, I know this has been brought up before. I just wanted to throw in my opinion.

[MagDog68]

Originally posted by oldsoldier
Remember people, more and more folks shop online now, so,to hit THAT market, you need to advertise towards THAt medium. Because when the product arrives, it really doesnt matter how it was packaged. So, IMHO, AGD should do more advertising in magazines, at shows, set up booths at tourneys, etc. This will hit a larger audience than a simple box will. THIS will be money well spent. And, before you flame this, I know this has been brought up before. I just wanted to throw in my opinion.

Aha..I tried to make that point before - the internet has made packaging almost irrelevant to a large portion of consumers.

~Fred

[Croix71]

:eek:

The threads are getting longer and longer. It hurts me eyes!! :D

[MagDog68]

Originally posted by Croix71
:eek:

The threads are getting longer and longer. It hurts me eyes!! :D

Imagine Yipe was responding? We'd be here for days reading! I miss his posts...

~Fred

[Spaceman613]

I personally like plain boxes.. That way I can send other guns through the mail, and no one knows whats inside. I do think a t-shirt, hat, or some lil item would be nice. I remember when a friend bought a Shocktech cocker few years ago, they gave him a gun bag. Never came in a box, but he got a bag.

Besides, how far does a box have to go? Will the picture on the box have to be the same color and fade as the marker? Maybe a clear lexan box for display (with lock of course). Wooden crate (old Tippmann style) would be cool.

It could easily get too crazy if they spent too much time on a box. Simple works great for high end guns. Besides this isnt exactly "general public." People dont walk through Wal Mart and buy an E-mag, they go to specialty stores to hold, feel and inspect the gun. Just seems funny we are bickering over a piece of cardboard.

Ona side note, lower end guns do need to worry about packaging. We used to sell Bruizers like crazy for one reason, they came with a plastic carrying case. Very cool thing to have for a POS gun.

[bofh]

Originally posted by shartley
You don’t see them sold from falling down barns.. but heck, it would be the same car.. right? ;)

You haven't seen the Ferrari's I've looked at buying. :) but Yes, you're right, *New* Ferraris have nice show rooms.


Originally posted by shartley
The issue was if the addition of a nicely designed and presented package would HELP sales… and that is an unequivocal YES.

Actually, so far I'm not convinced that a pretty four color box would sell any more markers. I'm not sure it's an unequivocal YES, a whole-hearted Maybe, is as far as I'd go. I don't have any marketing degrees, I only know from what I'd do. I do know, that the book you're working from, does not jibe with my purchasing style.

The question that AGD has to ask themselves is, Who is their market? After they identify that, then make products for that market.

I'm not sure anybody that doesn't have a great amount of data in their hand about AGD sales figures, paintball demographics, all sorts of data linking the two of them, can tell them who their market is. I'm not even sure that AGD has the data they need to make these decisions.

But it's possible that AGD has identified their market and (at the risk of sounding Pogo-like) it is us.

[ben_JD]

Originally posted by MagDog68
Anyone else think shartley suffers from a god complex? Maybe we should let him run the company.

~Fred I'm not sure that I have ever heard Shartley indicate he didn't suffer from same.

[Chupas2]

I can't believe that you are arguing about a damn box. I don't think any gun I've bought has had a box anyway. And if it has how many places do you go to that has the box out for you to see. Most have the gun on a wall or in a case. Tom is not selling at Wal-mart where people are looking for a bright package. When you buy a higher end gun you just want the gun not some fancy package. I just think this whole thing is nuts. Remeber it's only cardboard.

[shartley]

MagDog68
Thank you for your response. I am not in disagreement that the box is not the “end all” to AGD problems. Anyone who has followed my posts from day one knows that I am always talking about the BIG picture and how every part fits to make things work.

The problem with most things is that this is just ONE issue, but it is an issue. I never said that this was ALL AGD needed to do, quite the opposite… it is only one part, but still a part. And if you take each part by itself you can easily point fingers at other parts and say THEY are more important than the others and thus do NOTHING about it. And what does that do? You are right… nothing. We get nowhere.

What is more important to a car? The engine? The tires? The body? What? All of it? You bet! The same is true with products and the things that make them a winner in the public eye… you can not take one part in total isolation since they ALL affect each other.

I am only suggesting that the packaging is PART of what needs to be changed… not the ONLY thing.

As for the Automags being stale… I understand. But I am sure if you think about it, you will see that there have been other “stale” products that have been given a new life by a good “marketing facelift”, and aggressive “image change”. And even more so when it is suddenly marketed to a different customer group.

What if the AGD products were marketed to a higher end client? What about Executives or those with a higher expendable budget? What if they were marketed LIKE the Ferrari of Paintball Markers? And what if they were marketed OUTSIDE of the standard Paintball Magazines… to a NEW group of potential players? These players would not already have the misconceptions to deal with, and would indeed be a good group to target….. and one the other companies have not reached yet… and why not? Because they are stuck IN THE BOX. AGD prides itself for being outside the box…. Then REALLY be outside it…. Expand into an untapped market.

So, again, I am not saying “shiny packaging” is the key… but I AM saying it is something AGD can not afford to ignore.

Oh, and no.. I have not been out to buy sneekers in some time… LOL Those cases sound “nifty”… I agree a bit overdone on packaging.


Aha..I tried to make that point before - the internet has made packaging almost irrelevant to a large portion of consumers.
Oh the misconceptions of online folks. They see online sales go up and they think Retail is dead… well, sorry, it is FAR from being dead. They said the same thing about online sales killing the Shopping Malls….. I laughed at them then as well… never going to happen.

Same with online sales of Paintball Products… just because you chat in some online chat room, on a forum, etc., buy your products from an online store, etc. that does not mean the MAJORITY of people are. There are FEW industries that sell online that outsell their “real world” stores.. Books, Music, and that is about it.. and that is a hard call at that.

Think about it like this… will nice packaging take away from Online Sales and the way people think about the product when they get it? Now can you say the same about “real world” sales? No? Good point, don’t you think? So if you are going to DO it, why not do it in a manner that is a positive for BOTH?

oldsoldier
I agree to a point. But like I have always said, it should not be a ONE or the OTHER thing. It should be all. Think of it like a military maneuver….. Your air support is great, your ground support is great, your naval support is great…. But try them all by themselves. Not much of a battle plan is it? You need it all, and all done correctly.

I have been suggesting a new strategy for a long time here on AO. And I have been stressing the importance of ALL parts and how they fit together. But until AGD actually does it, and not ignoring that things actually DO matter… things will never change. No amount of “new” products will help them. They will simply have new products that sell as poorly as the old ones do…..

But you are correct… the box may not always affect the direct sale (depending on the product) but it does lend to your willingness to crow about the product later. Like I said before, it all adds up. And in the big picture, THAT part is one of the easiest to fix… so why not fix it? By all means do NOT forget all the other important parts, but don’t ignore this one because there ARE others.

bofh
Good points. But I would contend that if sales have been poor, ones view of the demographic may need reconsidering as a viable focus for future sales (which are the key to a companies survival)….. one MIGHT say that a new approach and demographic may be in order to increase sales…. Seen it happen with other products, and helped it happen too. Just something to think about.. ;)

ben_JD
DOH!!!! You rascal! LOL How have you been.. Ben? ;)

Chupas2
Some may be “arguing”.. others of us are rationally discussing it. And that is not a bad thing. I don’t think anyone can honestly say that something doesn’t need to be done. There are many opinions WHAT that should be, or what combination of things that should be, but I think most would agree that something is just not right…..

Some of us would like to see things change for the better… as I am sure you would too, and that only happens by discussing what we think and creating meaningful dialogue.. which is EXACTLY why Tom bought this forum. ;)

[jurassic]

quote:

Originally posted by MagDog68
Anyone else think shartley suffers from a god complex? Maybe we should let him run the company.

~Fred

Originally posted by ben_JD
I'm not sure that I have ever heard Shartley indicate he didn't suffer from same.
Shartley as President of AGD.
"Buy an AGD Extreme or else listen to me Pontificate.!!!!"
Customer..."Please!! Please!! Not That!! I'll Buy!!! I'll Buy!!!"

:p :p :p :p

[thecavemankevin]

Jeez, i am gone for like four hours and this thing has exploded!!!

Well to try and keep my post short (cause i am tired of reading as i am sure most of you are by this point) i truly believe that the box does matter. Now how much does it matter, not very. Shartley was correct when he said something like presentation is everything. That is why AGD is working on a new wrapper, it is called the C&C Extreme. All the body is, is a working wrapper for the internals, and all of the milling is just a way to market/dress up the wrapper.

I think that AGD DEFIANTLY needs help in the marketing department!! As for making the box all pretty like, AGD?s marketing funds can be spent in a far wiser fashion (sponsoring team?s!!!, marketing in magazines and online, and marketing at tournaments).

[Chupas2]

Tom does sponser some teams and as far as marketing at touries he is the main sponser at the IAO and he was one of the Top sponsers at Ultimate madness. He also sponsers the WPF series too. As for marketing at tournies, have you every seen his booth. He has one of the nicer displays out there. His booth is the only one with lights. If you go to alot of the major events you'd see this.

[Jonno06]

i want an extreem emag....:D :p

[bofh]

Originally posted by Chupas2
I can't believe that you are arguing about a damn box. I don't think any gun I've bought has had a box anyway. And if it has how many places do you go to that has the box out for you to see. Most have the gun on a wall or in a case. Tom is not selling at Wal-mart where people are looking for a bright package. When you buy a higher end gun you just want the gun not some fancy package. I just think this whole thing is nuts. Remeber it's only cardboard.

I can't beleive you're not arguing about the box.

Actually what if it wasn't cardboard? What if it was a mahagony crate? With brass hardware and a molded red velvet lining? What if you saw it displayed in a glass box like that instead of hanging on peg board wall behind a counter? What about a nice carbon-fiber case with molded black velvet with a place for tools in the case, if wood isn't your bag?

While, I would agree that such a display would sell more markers, I don't agree that it would easily justify the cost. Which is why Shotguns aren't sold that way (at least the ones that I have bought.)

The deep root of these issues is really fashion.

Personally I hate fashion. But it does sell things, things that I scratch my head about with wonder. In the Paintball world, milled markers are the fashion. People want their marker to be milled. But Milling does not change the way a marker works, it doesn't change the speed, accuracy, or reliablity. It only makes it look better.

[Rooster]

If you are going to spend time dressing up the package, do it with something useful. I like the plastic gun case, or even gun bag idea. Those are something useful, even if they arn't useful to everyone. AGD has almost always been utilitarian in nature. Even things like the extreem are a facelift, but they are a useful facelift. The interchangable modual idea is brilliance. Selling out to the flavor of the week crowd is going to get you just that, a group of cutomers only loyal to the next big thing. A cardboard box is usueful to no one, unless, like i said, you are starting a fire.

[MagDog68]

Originally posted by bofh


I can't beleive you're not arguing about the box.

Actually what if it wasn't cardboard? What if it was a mahagony crate? With brass hardware and a molded red velvet lining?


Whoa whoa...wait a second. Are you suggesting that we package the Extreme in a casket?

~Fred

[bofh]

Originally posted by MagDog68
Whoa whoa...wait a second. Are you suggesting that we package the Extreme in a casket?

~Fred

This is the reason I should put down any drink before I load any pages on AO.

You owe me a keyboard. :)

[skirts]

i think tom should use this whole darn discussion as a marketing gimmic.

i can read it now

"AGD - WHY PAY FOR PRETTY PACKAGING"
"its whats inside that counts"

maybe im wrong but when i get something new in a box, like a dish washer or a stove or a fridge i usually have the dillema of having to get rid of it. they dont even put things like t-shirts and cars in boxes. im grateful that i am even getting the color white on my box, because that dull cardboard color just isnt fun.
now we can talk about boxes or we can talk about marketing... these are two different issues, dont tell me they arnt. but you are all taking this thing out of hand, remember complaining about a box at the bottom of someone elses thread is counter productive. if you like AGD then get out there and use their products, and show others just how darn sweet these guns are.

tom, from now on can i just get any new marker wrapped up in newspaper...

kisses and hugs

skirts

[cledford]

Shartley,

I think you often make great points - but this one really stood out:

"Again, when making business decisions we often have to remove ourselves from what we “know” to be true, and focus on what the general marketplace “thinks” is true, that in itself will dictate the better move on our part. "

A lot of the posts in this thread are supporting the current marketing/boxing policies, but as has been stated again, and again - we're the loyal, we would buy a level 10 what-ever wrapped in newspaper. Stop reasoning based on what you know to be true - and think about things from the perspective of a potential buyer.

The real problem, and what most everyone else in this thread is missing is that AGD (the company, and the man) does not exist to serve just our small AO community. It's/he's here to do business and sell as many markers as possible - not just to the few loyal, but everyone possible. For loyal AO'ers out there who doesn't care what kind of box your gun comes in, great! But try to open your mind and think outside the box for just a second - as your positions are pretty short sighted. Every company should have a sales goal, this is separate from design, quality, or other goals. Lets say AGD's goal (hypothetically) is to outsell the IR3, bump WDP from the pedestal, and regain their former glory as "THE" tourney marker. It's going to take a lot more then just our support. Don't get me wrong - we're a big part - but in the end all those Angel lovers who (unlike us) expect a snazzy marketing experience, and fancy box for their money, are going to have to be courted too. You may not care what type of box your gun comes in - but you are already on board - getting the rest of the masses on the team is what is required. For all of ya who disagree, think a little deeper - and quite complaining just because "you" don't care about the box. Way too many of the POTENTIAL AGD customers might and/or do. We need them, and AGD wants them. (I think...)

-Calvin

[Kaiser Bob]

Originally posted by Chupas2
I can't believe that you are arguing about a damn box. I don't think any gun I've bought has had a box anyway. And if it has how many places do you go to that has the box out for you to see. Most have the gun on a wall or in a case. Tom is not selling at Wal-mart where people are looking for a bright package. When you buy a higher end gun you just want the gun not some fancy package. I just think this whole thing is nuts. Remeber it's only cardboard.

I tend to agree with this gentleman. I have yet to see markers displayed at Pro Shops in their boxes. They are all on the wall and you dont even see the box till after you've forked over the cash. And I have yet to hear anybody complain "Yeah my gun is great, but the box really sucked!" So i dont think the box is as big an issue everybody is making it.

PS- If SprayingMango didnt take a pic of his box I would have had no idea what it looked like and I doubt his decision of buying the gun was based on the box in any way, since he probably didnt know what it was packaged in either.

[shartley]

So i dont think the box is as big an issue everybody is making it.
I don’t think anyone is making it into a bigger issue than it really is. Simply put, it is the issue we have chosen to address in this thread… but one of many that could be talked about. There have been threads about all sorts of concerns, from barrels, superbolts, cosmetics, upgrades, rumors, false conceptions, etc. and now we are simply talking about the packaging.

It is also, as I have stated, not one that is very hard to correct. However, it is part of an overall “problem” (if I may) that many people are genuinely concerned about. And each little problem can add up to a large one when factored together… so they should (each in turn) be addressed. It is like the straw analogy…. If you don’t want the straw to break the camel’s back, you eliminate as many straws as you can….

…And even more so when other companies are getting rid of those straws FASTER and more efficiently than the company you choose to back, and the one you support.

So it IS important, and really should be talked about at a minimum (which is happening.. and quite well I must say), and hopefully acted upon. But again, not as a stand alone solution to anything, but part of a well made plan involving many things.

Again… this is part of why Tom stated he purchased AO…. So let him get his money’s worth. ;)

[Tunaman]

...that the fastest marker in the world comes in a plain white cardboard box. Anyone who knows anything would never need any other packaging. In this instance it would be a TOTAL waste of time and money for everyone...including the consumer.:D

[einhander619]

Amazing how worked up everyone can get about cardboard.

First of all, I think a distinction needs to be made here between flashy, and classy.

I don't know about you all, but I have ALWAYS considered mags to be "classy" markers. Angels, autocockers, and all other milled guns can be placed under "flashy." It's great to see a flashy mag, because you know it didn't come that way and someone put in a lot of energy into making it that way. But all those Warped this and c & c that's, you just know some jerkoff bought it that way because it caught his eye, and he probably didn't give a second thought to functionality. That's not to say I don't appreciate a tricked cocker, I just like seeing guns that look custom actually be custom!

As for packaging, I personally would love to see mags, at least RTs, emags and extremes, come in a nice hard case with a place for tools, parts, and barrels. Plastic would be fine, but if you really want classy, aluminum would be awesome!!! I know those aren't cheap, but neither is anything else in paintball, and it would help with resale value and keep your markers looking nicer longer.

I would definitely rock a case with an AGD logo on it!

[jurassic]

Two prices for AGD Products. For folks that want to pay more for pretty boxes, great they get what they want and pay more for a pretty box! The rest of us will still get the the same great AGD products but in a cheaper plain white box!!:) ;) :)

[cledford]

Good suggestions. I for one would be on the plastic box wagon - I've bought many a firearm, and the plastic cases are professional, good for storage, and transporting. I also hear that some people could care less, and are fine with cardboard.

Maybe a plastic cased version that was was marketed as a "kit" (barrrel, charger, tool kit), and a plain boxed version for a few bucks less that just had the gun.

AGD would be the first paintball company to release a plastic box, and would really stand out.

I actually wish I had one for each of my markers - an Emag, Shocker, Timmy, Mini/Retro Mag, cocker, 2 stock nelspots, and a Bushmaster pump take up A LOT of space in the closet, and are constantly bumping, and falling over or into each other. There's really no way to store the reasonably when jocked up, or even gun alone.

A box would require that you remove accessories, like air systems, warps, and loaders. This may be a short coming, but if you needed to store, ship, sell, or trasport (don't forget - same states are now requiring firearm like storage standards when moving a paintgun by car - no air, or loader...) a marker, it could come in handy.

I'm not sure how much such a case might cost AGD to produce, or how much it would drive up retail price, but in terms of a $1400+ gun it might be something worth doing.

-Calvin

[einhander619]

Thanks for the props, man. Seriously, who wouldn't use a nice case that came with the gun?:)

[Archangel Kid]

BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. BOX CONTEST. OK i think i got my point across :)