The Offcial BOX Thread

[AGD]

AO,

I am getting shreaded to bits over this whole box thing so I might as well consolidate them all here.

First of all we are aware of the fact our boxes do not stand out in a crowd. My comeback to that is neither does Worr Games and most guns are sold off the rack not in a stack of boxes on the shelf. By the time the customer sees the box it's over.

Having said that I can also see the other side of the coin and say "thank God they are compairing us to Angels". We have taken a lot of heat over the SFL packages and been found lacking in comparison to WDP. I will take a moment and defend myself here by saying that the SFL's were a pre production run done in the shortest amount of time possible. This was for World Cup at the request of Shocktech. It's not really fair to compare that position with WDP's in which they obviously planned and developed their introduction for a very long time.

To fill you in we have looked at various packaging solutions over the years. The problem has always been the variety of body styles and the larger things we put in the package such as the video and Vieloader. By the time we get everything in it's own little pocket the box gets huge and expensive. Custom boxes have to be ordered in the thousands and ones like WDP is providing with the IR3 cost about 10 bucks. Do the math and the investment is significant. We would take over a year to use up that many boxes so we would have to charge 2-3x more for it to get the cash back out of the inventory. We don't sell nearly asa many high end guns as WDP does so we have to take these things into account.

To support your point of view I will agree that our boxes as well as our marketing sucks. The first day the IR3 shipped I got calls from my OWN TECHS telling me they have a great box and we should do one too. They made a point that it made the product worth 150 bucks more. The next week England called and asked about having AO do a box contest so we can have one as nice as WDP's. Now multiple threads here are commenting about the "box" and I am folding from the pressure.

We are frantically working on this Level 10 project and maybe erroneously thinking we can go into production once we get this solved. If we did this it would leave us lacking in the box and instruction department. I don't think I can bear any more abuse over this issue since believe it or not I really do get emotionally wrapped up over things said here on the forum.

With all that said we are taking a hard look at "the box" and figuring out what we can do. This also includes the instructions and the video. Just starting on this would have to be after everything is finalized for production because you don't want "out dated videos" etc.

One concept we are considering is to only produce C&C, big money, nicely packaged Extremes. The few hundred extra for the "shiney" goes a long way toward covering costs. The exact opposite option is to offer a no frills, no options 90 day warrantee ONLY version that you can upgrade later, white box at no extra charge.

In any case we are no longer looking at Extreme production getting close to reality any time soon. We see this as a cornerstone product for the company and rather than screw it up we would just not put it out at all.

After this lengthy discourse I am looking to the collective brain power of AO to come up with a brilliant solution to our delema. Got box?

Humbled,

AGD

[BTAutoMag]

no no no you got it all wrong. you gotta think outside the box. when i get something new i dont care what the box looks like. for one i dont wanna spend money on something that i see once and put in my closett for "future use". for 2 when i get something new i wanna get to as quick as possible wether or not the box survives the mad rush to the product is at no fault of mine. i want the goodies inside. as far as i care you can send me an emag in a box labled "depends undergarmants".

[SlipknotX556]

Man Tom that is one heck of a box problem. Why not just pack the SFL's and Extreems in like a box with a AGD logo sticker on it, put some bubble warp around the gun and everything. That would look cool. The Offical AGD Box.

[than205]

Tom,
Not to kiss your butt. But, everything in your post sounds absolutely reasonable and sane. Most of all sound thinking.
I feel it must be extremely hard decipher a legimate customer value added request/feature. Especially when it's posted on this forum.

Bottom line: Your plan is right on the money in my mind.

[ProjectMag]

Where do boxes ususally end up?? That's right, the garbage. If you do keep your box, it ends up in the closet like BTAutomag said collecting dust. After awhile, boxes get beat up and start falling apart and hence, end up in the trash. I think the box issue is about as important as.....uh....something not important. ;) This box issue should be the least of your worries Tom.

I want my gun to come in a nice box, then I can throw the gun away and play with the box :p

[Fred]

Originally posted by BTAutoMag
i want the goodies inside. as far as i care you can send me an emag in a box labled "depends undergarmants".

For once... i totally agree with BT...

AGD is about Engineering a superior product, not fluff and hype. it's not about a pretty box with overpriced gigapet...

KISS: Keep it Simple Stupid. A white box, with a simple AGD crest on the top with EMAG EXTREME or such would be awesome.

It should be nicely done, not tacky, not fluffy, just simple and strong enough to get the marker to the customer in the same condition it left the shop.

Most people that buy these will be putting them into nice padded cases anyway, I know I would if I had an Extreme.

---Fred

[Cypres0099]

As far as I am concerned if the gun works, I don't care about the box. Most of the stuff that I order is off the internet anyway so once I have it the box isn't selling me on anything. This may not be the opinion of many people here on the forum but I say that if the boxes delay the Extremes I would rather not have them.

But if this is the best marketing move then it is certainly the best thing to do.

[Rynoboy06]

Oh dear, we've pushed the Extremes back again. (sobs gently but pathetically into hands)

1)AO box design contest while you finish lvl. 10
2)Charge the extra $10-15, and put on the box, as one of the features "comes in nice box!"
3)A low-cost version of the Extreme is a good idea, but get the C&C's out first, then go back.

4)Create a thread where you constantly post what you have acheived and what else needs to be done before the Extremes are released so we who have been waiting since Christmas can can see the progress.
5)Since you now have more time, make Dye Stickies stock!
6)Get Jon Rice to match your "Angels shoot pretty darn good" line for the Extremes.

7)Obliterate Mancow. I'm with whoever said the "fork in the eye" line.

[FooTemps]

BOXES SUCK!!!! JUST SEND THE GUN IN ONLY BUBBLE WRAP!!!

I don't see why so many morons buy into boxes so much. The angel ir3 is a looker but that boxs adds how much to the price? 200 dolla? more? I'd rather pay for something good looking and high performance for 200 dollars less...

[a_malfunction]

AGD needs to get a get in gear when it comes to marketing. If a box is the way to do it, so be it. IMO, money spent on advertising would be better spent than money spent on a nice box. I think that AGD should worry about:
1) Getting the product PERFECTED (no matter how long it takes)
2) Marketing the product effectively both before and after release.

If both goals are met (and the level 10 stuff is what it sounds like it will be), then I think that AGD will regain its fair share of the market and its image.

[datapimp69]

ok tom here you go,

when i bought my angel it came in a nice box, in fact i think it is on your desk some where.

and you can make one like this cheap.

the BOX itself was just like yours plain, BUT it had a wrap around it with all the pretty pics and info on it.

you could keep your current BOX and put a slide on wrap on it.

i know that printing is much cheaper then coustom BOX.

this is just an idea.

ohh.. i just rembered that the angel box wasent a box but molded styrofome i dont know how much that costs.

lets just say when you think outside the box, think about the outside of the box. just wrap that rascale.

[Bonx0007]

Hey Tom I totally knew that was why the box for the SFL box was plain. I don't care what the box looks like because I am going to throw it out anyway. Just make the marker well and you will have no worries. Let the product speak for itself. You need to do this Extreme. Failure is not an option. You can do it. This lvl 10 thing is huge I am sure. You must accomplish it also. Do not fret over this box problem. It is only because some people are trying to justify the reason for buying a 1500 two-way pager. Just get a big stamp and put AGD on those babies and you will be fine. Throw a one color manual,a video, and a dope anodize job and you'll be set. These guns are a huge threat to the high end market share and you need to see that and make them a high priority. I know things are tough right now but I recall two good sayings "There is more in you than you dare think."--David Brower and one more

"Hell would be if God were to show me things I could have accomplished if only I had believed in myself."--Unknown

This is your time to shine Tom i know you and your company will step up to the challenge and shatter that doubt that anyone ever put in your product. Show them all Tom. Shove that critisism down there throats and be successful in this endevour. What ever you do do not give up on this project.
I assure you, you will exceed!!!

Bonx0007

[Potatoboy]

I said it before and I'll say it again, I like the white box.

I agree that the box is usually presented *after* the sale.

A custom box isn't the best idea, I like the box sleeve idea myself.

[zvanut]

i would not say the boxes are making a fashion statement..... i also wouldnt say that they are bad (plain is good), but i think the boxes need a little something. like for example do the boxes in black then colors will look better IMHO.

anyways i think you get the idea.

[mrbrutal]

How many retailers even show the box? You dont see the box on the online stores. Most local retailers display the gun more than the box. Though I have to admit that a nice looking box will attract attention and then interest in whats inside. With that being said, you wouldn't need to make too many of the nice boxes, just enough for show and still use the plain jane boxes for shipping and internet/mail orders

[ah137]

white box? screw that I'll take a brown box!! Anyone that is going to buy a marker that cost 500+ is buying it for the marker and not the box.

Later Hills


*edit*-Stamp an AGD logo on every box!

[Blennidae]

The box wrap for the "normal" mags would be an inexpensive way to spruce up the box. For those who are going to toss the box anyway, it wont matter. But it is more appealing than just the white box.

For the "high end" guns, I think something more is expected. I don't know if people actually store their high end guns in the fancy boxes, so it doesn't need to be extravagant. I put the Emag in a Pelican case, and probably would have no matter how nice the box was.

[obsolete898]

I say put the money towards other marketing and advertisement(sp). Who gives a rat's butt about a box.

[thecavemankevin]

F! the box!
Concentrate on getting the important things done first. Such as the level ten stuff and supper bolt corrections, and so on. Don't worry about the box right now. When your ready ask us and we will design some lables for you.

Please, don't stress out and let all this box stuff get to you. I can tell by your posts lately you seem to be getting stressed. Take a night off from AO and relax (it will work to your bennefit in the long run).






Originally posted by datapimp69

the BOX itself was just like yours plain, BUT it had a wrap around it with all the pretty pics and info on it.

i know that printing is much cheaper then coustom BOX.

this is just an idea.

lets just say when you think outside the box, think about the outside of the box. just wrap that rascale.

Thats basically what i said in the other thread. Use the same old boxes, but print up some sticky lables with all the "shiney stuff"

[ben_JD]

Originally posted by AGD In any case we are no longer looking at Extreme production getting close to reality any time soon.Is production not close due to box and instruction woes, or due to production and R&D issues?


Boxes: I agree with Shartley and I agree with those who say "who cares about the box!?" I want an Extreme to arrive at my doorstep as quickly as possible in a protective package which I can immediately discard. I also want you to make a lot of money so that you an expand your staff, develop new products and take a nice vacation to someplace hot. These two simultaneous thoughts are possible due to the fact that I am already sold. It's my next gun and there isn't a lot that anyone can do to change that. For many of the users here, the Extreme will be their next major paintball purchase regardless of the pacakaging.

But, AGD needs to expand its base of customers. In the present marketplace, that means AGD has to appeal to the snot-nosed, "wow, that looks cool" junior high crowd who are just waiting to plunk down over 1000 of mommy and daddy's dollars on a new paintball gun to impress their friends. Currently, those piles of money are being sent to England as quickly as England can ship us fantastically shiny boxes full of LCD-laced paintball goodness.

My thought is, focus on the marker and make a respectably classy-looking box. I think that the interface probably has to be upgraded (yes, I think that means LCD with some sort of stupid graphic display) and the marker cannot look anything like the Automag many of us have grown to love over the course of the last decade (my Automag was 11 years old last month). I think you do that, buy some sexy ads in APG and Facefull and get some pros using and praising the Extreme and you are half-way to winning the marketing war.

Tom, good luck. We are all pulling for you.

[rudy]

we all know what we would rather do, but the real question is does the box influence the buyer or not. thinking outside the box i say go with a cool bag =] , but why does it have to be a really expensive box why not jsut a minor upgrade maybe a brighter color, but it doesn need a clear view window and a titanium handle and what not. i would say just go with soemthign different , pick a bright unique color and, then when people see the box they know right away hey that is a mag, and it gets attention but doesnt cost big. no one is going to decide on a gun based on tha box imho especailly not when you get up that high in price. which is also another issue wdp knows that by time a person forks over more then 1000$ for a gun a 10$ added cost of a box isnt gonna make a bit of difference

[oneshot]

when it comes to the box, keep the same box, just put some flashy stickers or pictures on it, maybe put some molded styrofome (sp?), inside to make it look even more profesional.

release the C&C extremes first, only release them when you think that they are ready, (all the 10 stuff)

AGD could release teaser adds in magazines about the extremes, like small phrases that make people wonder what it is.

one of the previous replys said that you should have a thread the would keep us aoers updated on your progress, I would enjoy that.

keep up the good work,I am faithfully waiting for the final product.the excitement is building

[FooTemps]

Hmmm... The only reason WDP has nice boxes is because they spend minimal amounts of money on making leaps like agd does. They make small steps with every generation and use the rest of the budget on marketing and boxes!

[Cristobal]

I think the whole box thing is being blown out of proportion a bit. The marketing types have made some good points. As far as I can see though, a nice box would look classy but wouldn't necessarily have to be fancy or expensive: take a basic well constructed box, put a background color on it, AGD crest on top, AGD name on the front, and label sticker with serial number(non-handwritten) on another side.

I think the biggest thing about making it look classy is just getting the colors right and making sure it doesn't look sloppy. I liked the suggestion for a black box. Black or dark gray with the AGD crest in red on top would look nice and sharp IMO.

The reason for putting something on the front would be so that when several boxes are stacked on top of each other the AGD name is still prominent.

Bubble wrap or formed foam inside? If the fancy foam is cost effective then its probably preferable, but if not its probably not as important as outside appearance.

And hey, why not have a "design a box contest"? who knows, might get some great ideas out of it.

Just my $.02

[Load SM5]

Like a few have said already, the box should'nt be as big an issue as it has become. When I got my SFL the box did'nt even survive the car ride home from the fast food joint were I met the UPS guy. Maybe a nice glossy sticker with stuck to the top of the plain white box just to dress it up a tad but the main concerns should be the instruction manual, and magazine advertising. I'll bet that a nice glossy add in PGI announcing the arrival of the extreem with level 10 mods, will make everyone forget that the word 'box' exists. Heck you could even put it in the add, "We thought about putting the money towards a nice box, but sunk it into making a superior product instead."

[jurassic]

Question?? Is AGD in the business of producing pretty boxes or manufacturing the best paintball markers that love or money can buy!!! If this is going to delay the the release of the Extremes than forget it! Do Mag owners want a pretty box to keep their mags in or a great looking case that the owner can purchase on their own
to protect their investment?
Also for those folks that have put there money where their mouth is and prepaid for an Extreme are they going to be left out waiting for the non paying customer to make up there mind about what box they want their
maybe future marker purchase in?!??!! So what if the Angel IR3 comes in a pretty box. Would imagine that it is only the shallow minded snobs that care what the box looks like!! The real player wants a marker that works every time the player wants it to work, great looks on the marker are just icing on the Cake. If the Extremes are only going to be produced in C&C only to start than fine. Either way, I put my money up to have one of the first best mags That Tom has ever produced. Enough said!! When its ready than its ready!! But no delay over trivial box looks!

[Chris]

Here is a box idea, it will let the gun advertise for itself. Make the box clear, out of some form of plastic. You can tint the plastic to whatever color you desire, but clear is perfect. Put an AGD sticker on the front, not top, but front of the box. Make the styrofoam or cardboard that would hold the gun in place an integral part of the box. Kind of like a presentation case. You would not have to open the box to look at what is inside. I suggest you keep the same dimensions or basic shape for the box, dont make it something that is form fitting or whatever. If possible, on top, you could do a see-through AGD logo with the name of the gun. Or, put the name of the gun on the front of the box along with the S/N and whatnot.

If you need more clarification on this idea, you know how to get ahold of me.

-Chris

[jurassic]

Marketing techniques!! Make up full color glossy banners of C&C Extremes, Warps other AGD products to be sent to paintball stores to be hung up where every customer that comes in the store will see this first!! Will it cost? You bet! But that big beautiful banner is going to create more sales than a PRETTY cardboard BOX!! Think about it!! AGD Banners on Paintball fields, stores, tournaments throughout the country!! Hell!! Wherever
paintball is played!
If you paint the world with banners they will come!!!

[Snooky]

The box is important to me. You guys say you'll just throw it out but i like to keep the box in case i want to resell it one day.

The other thing i like about the box is at a local shop i walked in and the first thing i noticed was how awesome the angel ir3 box looked making me want to atleast look at the gun inside. I think this is a greats tep towards people seeing agd as having some marketing.

Also another note i recieved my i-frame today and i was impressed at the packaging with it. It made me think that the product was cooler just because of the info and prettiness of the packaging.

Well i guess its gonna be time to buy the regualar emag and wait for the extreme's.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Thanks to Load..I think we've got our new marketing tagline..


"We thought about putting the money towards a nice box, but sunk it into making a superior product instead."

[FooTemps]

"we don't waste money on marketing, we spent it on performance of the gun"

[Timmee]

... a black box, and on the front, a picture of a polished Extreme? Have the AGD logo in the corner, in white. On the sides, something similar.

OR, how about a plastic case, something like what Kingman did for the Flash? To defer costs some, you could also sell them to people who already have 'Mags. Have the foam perforated in squares, so that they can take out just enough for their marker.

Just my $0.04

[Phil]

I think your boxes are fine. I didn't really give a second glance at the box my E-Mag arrived in... I think the afore mentioned sleve to slide over the stardard box might be your best alternative.

On the flip side whats another $30 bucks when your blowing $1300 on a gun. Just make the nice box charge the $30 and no one will notice.

[MajorDamage]

Box? Box? BOX? Who cares about a box? Boxes are only fun if they are huge, and you can make them into a nice fort. But unless this box can become my super space fort, then I don't care about it. Make the box ugly! Ugly boxes rule!

ENDO!

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

I don't have time to read all these posts, but i'm pretty sure that most people do agree with me. Who cares what box it's in, as long as the gun is ok inside of it? I don't even keep any kind of boxes around. I think i used mine to ship something out in one of my online trades.

[Butterfingers]

I think money would be better spent on the instruction manual and this is the third time i'm sayin this, a full color catalouge.

Screw the box. Keep the plain box, just pad it a little bit more and slap a sticker on top of it.

Tom do you know where my box is? It's sitting in the corner of my closet collecting dust with the warp feed box inside of it.

On the other hand my instruction manuals are inside a plastic envelope which go EVERYWHERE with me.

[the123]

i'm with butterfingers, spend your time on the manual and maybe get some fancy stickers for your white box. It's whats inside that counts. :)

[joker4hire]

I believe you guys are looking at the box "thingy" from the wrong viewpoint. Remember, you guys that state "who cares about a dumb box" are AGD Zealots an know what AGD is about...

Now picture a customer (with money) going into a paintball shop for the first time... whats going to attract his/her attention?... is that person willing to fork out over 10 bills for a plane white box?... or an extremely pretty one with flashy colors and lettering?...

Believe it or not, millions are spent by the big name companies on box reasearch and design... Microsoft, Sony, and my former company ViewSonic (monitor manufacturer if you didn't know)... Would you buy a "high end" ViewSonic Monitor over a "high end" Sony one if it was in a plane white box?

I believe Tom's goals are to become a big name player in the new "high end" paintball market, and in order to do so, he is going to have to win over new customers and increase his market share... which can be done IMO only one way... and that is to market your product well... which in AGD's case... Tom says it "sucks."

Sorry for the rant, but I believe AGD has to invest in itself (marketing wise) so they can become once again the marker of "choice" among new players and old. (Especially when the Extreme comes out because it will be seen as a different marker running at a lower pressure, instead of the blender sterotype the mag has gotten)... I know when I first started, it was either them, or WGP... guess who spent more on marketing?.. Start hyping the Extreme AGD, make flyer's and poster and such that gives hints of what the Extreme is about, what changes have been made, or just when its scheduled for realease.

[DjGruv]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
Thanks to Load..I think we've got our new marketing tagline..


"We thought about putting the money towards a nice box, but sunk it into making a superior product instead."

Ya like the Superbolt:rolleyes:

[Manuel_FZR]

I really don´t care about the box - it´s not important!
When I get a marker, I don´t look at the box - the marker is the issue. The box is after taking the marker out on the garbage.
Also I have never seen anny boxes of Angels or Cockers or... everything I am shown, when a teammate gets a new marker is the marker.
So, the box is really irrelevant. If it packs up the marker save, then it´s ok.

[bornl33t]

Well I've been thinking this over slightly. Tom I've been watching your every post on these issues. I can tell you get really wraped up in rep and so on... why else would you go through these lengths to get products tested etc.

Even though I COMPLEATLY agree, the box is worthless. I ahve to think about the last set of goggles I bought. I did the research online, went to the store to try them out and when I finally made the purchase, the shiney box just made me feel I made a good choise. Psycological effect I guess.

I feel maybe a helf'n half approach would be best. Lets get the shiney box, shiney altho simple. And keep the bubble wrap. I'm thinking for a bax maybe a glossy box, solid black with a grey AGD logo about 4" long centered on the top of the box. I dunno if there's a discount for limited colors used on a box but this would be a simple cheap solution if so. The reason grey on black, because those are monotoneus. So they give the impression of prestige. Like a tux on a rich peep. Maybe leave several boxes white on the side to mark what type of gun is in the box, but that's it.

Anyone remember the X-box box? SOLID color with the X logo centered, relatively small on the lid. You have to admit it had an effect!

One thing I can say, most ppl who DO save boxes thow out the foamy stuff and colaps the box to put in storage. a solution to the foamy thing would be a carboard piece folded up to create a stand. I dunno how cheap this is but
it's an idea!?

I have no clue how much this would cost, but I hope these Ideas would keep the price under 10$ a box... I would HOPE.

I have yet to buy a paintgun new, so the box has never concerned me. I'm a compleatly happy customer in reguards to your products and service, and even though I'm now brand loyal I would defent AGD's name against any others... why? because you can't loose with AGD.

I think you're set with a video in the box... who else does that? it's the best comback in the world. Trade a shiney box for a video about your gun!

[than205]

Boxes - Shmoxes

Ok. My vote is the wrap/sleeve idea. (also black is cooool)

Real marketing is the selling of "Elves". What I mean is whether it is a real perception or fallacy an image needs to be made. The foundation of the AGD product line is already there. (AGD - we know there is no more needed to be said.)
The shiney box will carry the product (for the non-neophite) only so far. As has been said before there needs to be a deliberate and precise effort to get a superior product into the hands of the most noticed people in the business. Tourney players (yuck, j/k) and store owners.
These people need to "know" more about what's there and what's going on.
Also, we have the foundation for a two pronged attack. The grass roots level work will need to be done by us the current users.

As a side note. I have never seen more Mags on the field than recently. I believe things are changing.

[Dragoon]

The marketing side is important, and should be addressed. I think a little sprucing up of the box is a good idea, but not much is needed. A sleeve over the existing box with some flashy pictures and text would be enough and wouldn't cost as much as custom boxes. The savings over custom boxes could then be put towards other marketing activities such as full color instruction manuals/catalogs and more print advertising.

We are a captive audience here. The marketing is needed to expand AGD customer base among the masses who care about looks it seems as much as function.

The function of products will generate customer loyalty, but marketing generates the customers. To succeed long term you can't really have one without the other.

(sorry if this sounds prechy or know-it-all. It's all too easy to be an armchair marketing guru)

Douglas

[cphilip]

Originally posted by AGD (My responses in Bold)

I am getting shreaded to bits over this whole box thing so I might as well consolidate them all here.

No not realy you are recieving constructive critisizm. You can take it or leave it

Having said that I can also see the other side of the coin and say "thank God they are compairing us to Angels".

Yes!


... and I am folding from the pressure.

So I propose a simple solution. A plain Gold box metalic finish with the AGD Lion logo. Simple tastefull and fairly cheap I think. Folding? Or recognizing the need?

We are frantically working on this Level 10 project and maybe erroneously thinking we can go into production once we get this solved.

So the Box should not keep you waiting too long as it's a just a matter of locating a single color box I think. Are you saying the Box will hold you up or are you held up already anyway? Another solution is to package the first ones in a Hard shell case. Anyone can spray the logo onto it. And charge a bit more for these early release models with case. So something special with them. Sign them or something. The first buyers are not going to balk at $100 case tacked on. Pelican I should think.

If we did this it would leave us lacking in the box and instruction department. I don't think I can bear any more abuse over this issue since believe it or not I really do get emotionally wrapped up over things said here on the forum.

You know Tom I realy think you should not take anything we say "emotionally". I fear if you tell folks this they might just stop telling you the hard facts as they see them. I know I feel bad now but I gotta be truthfull with you or what good am I to you?

With all that said we are taking a hard look at "the box" and figuring out what we can do. This also includes the instructions and the video. Just starting on this would have to be after everything is finalized for production because you don't want "out dated videos" etc.

Good thinking Tom. Do it. But order the boxes ASAP

One concept we are considering is to only produce C&C, big money, nicely packaged Extremes. The few hundred extra for the "shiney" goes a long way toward covering costs. The exact opposite option is to offer a no frills, no options 90 day warrantee ONLY version that you can upgrade later, white box at no extra charge.

Another good idea. Thats the one I would buy, the cheap one. But think about the Case idea and the box for new customers too. You can have it all!

In any case we are no longer looking at Extreme production getting close to reality any time soon. We see this as a cornerstone product for the company and rather than screw it up we would just not put it out at all.

Not because of the Box issue I think?

After this lengthy discourse I am looking to the collective brain power of AO to come up with a brilliant solution to our delema. Got box?

Gold! They got Silver....we got...THE GOLD! ;)

[dansim]

well heres a quick and easy solution, look at the freak case that cant be that expensive right? make a thicker perhaps larger freak case with clear plastic on top so you can see the marker(or contents in side) and have the foam cut to the marker and a slot for the barrel put the manual under the bottom foan and viola a snazy tough reusable case
injection molded rocks and mayber have the agd crest molded on the box somewhere

[bofh]

AGD,

As I've said before, you have to decide if it's worth it, to get a "new" box.

I believe that the box, in this application, is a post sale issue. It's something you want to represent your company when people look at it, not to pull in a sale. People already have their cash on the table when they see the box.

I think, at most, make a sticker that cover a good chunk of the top, and have the information of the marker, Color, warp/pf, left/right, mini/auto/e-mag/cnc on the side. (like you currently have) And perhaps molded/plucked foam inside. (as far as I know this is what you have, I haven't bought a mag in a while.)

That's all, but I warn you, I'm not a professional. And the right people to ask is not us. We, (AO) already know what we want to buy, we check specs and read reports and go into a store knowing what we want to get. A box won't change us.

[luke]

This whole box thing has bugged me from the beginning. It's the most ludicrous thing I have witnessed here at AO. Next thing people will be complaining about the cost increase.

I'm not one to flame anyone, but, I have to say wanting a pretty box with the purchase of a paintball gun the most ignorant thing I have ever heard of.

I don't know how the "AGD Company" is ran, but, It looks to me like Tom does all the development work by himself. Everyone needs to ask themselves what they would rather have Tom concentrating on, new products or marketing? Non of us own stock in AGD, so why is everyone worried about their marketing? What do you stand to gain from it? Are you worried AGD will go out of business if they don't advertise? Yea right! :rolleyes:

AGD will eventually be at the top again because of the products they INVENT not the box they bring it to us in.

I vote for keeping the SIMPLE WHITE BOXES so Tom can use his time to develop great products for us, not pretty packaging.

[BTAutoMag]

i like loads advertising quote...

"We thought about putting the money towards a nice box, but sunk it into making a superior product instead."

[than205]

There's another good point. Maybe the non-AGD should be asked how much packaging does matter.

[Gecko]

the best product packaging i have seen was my excalibur. No box just a nice warrior sports gear gun bag.....
I still use it today, holds 3 barrels and has a spot in front for oil allen wrenches etc...
Gecko

[MagDog68]

Oh...THAT kind of Box! I thought...nevermind.

~Fred

[G-Rexx]

Anyone looking to shell out $1000.00 plus on a marker, knows what they are buying, either a high end mech. or a spiffy elec. No one in our sport doles out that much mullah without knowing what they are buying, NO ONE!!!

When I purchased my E-Mag, it could have come in tin foil and I would not have cared. I knew what I was getting before I knew what the box looked like, and I could't care less about the package.

Tom keep the price of the markers down and continue to send them in the white boxes. Most folks who buy these high end markers, buy them off display racks in high end paintball shops. Don't raise the price and wind up cutting your nose off to spite the winers in the marketing world.

[cphilip]

What is this preocupation with the Technology verses Marketing debate? Where does everybody get that? How come everyone seems to think one has to suffer for the other? It most certainly does not. You should set a goal to do both well. Your logic completely baffles me that one will always affect the other like they are opposing players. They often can go hand and hand. As a team. I think most of you are completely distorting the issue by constantly assuming one would suffer in order to do the other. If it does your doing it wrong.

[skipdogg]

Have Two box versions

Version One-
One box is shiny looks good has pretty colors. It will cost $10 more for the overall price, and whiney players that have color matching gun parts, will gladly spend the extra money so they can brag to their friends that they are dumb and spent an extra $10 for a box.

The second version-
for serious paintballers that are too smart to be roped into buying "neat shiney things" and actually work hard for there money, and just wanna play some damn paintball and give two friggin poo cakes about boxes. This version will cost $10 less. And then we can point and laugh at all the stupid people that spent an extra $10 for A DANG STUPID BOX!!!!!


i know tom already said this idea, but he didnt say it the way i wanted to :)

[cphilip]

Tom already said that. And I agree, it was a good idea.

[MagDog68]

Thats the way to go! But I will still want my white box! I have three Mags and only one box :(

~Fred #1

[G-Rexx]

MagDog, I've got three mags, and no white boxes. Don't need the clutter!!! ;)

[the JoKeR]

I personally don't care so much about the box or packaging. If the gun arrives to me safe and sound, the packaging did it's part. Two of the last three guns I bought were on-line purchases, and came in the same white box with a nice color sticker to "customize" it. For me, that's enough. I understand people spending 1k or more for a gun want a little more flash for their cash, and when you're spending that kind of money, you deserve it.

[cphilip]

You know I actually keep my box in case I am shipping back or eventually sell it. People like the original box. Collectors know the value of the original box. Doubles the value on Collectables. Just a nice touch on a used marker sale but one that is always noticed. Only thing is I sent the emag back for update and THEY KEPT my box! :(

[2000Sabre]

Tom,

It's too bad that you feel like your being beat up because as cphilip put it we're only giving you constructive critism and not attacking you personally. However, I'm very appreciative of the fact that you do listen.

My take on the box issue is that is not the box itself that makes me buy the product but what's in the box. However, as a buyer of a high end marker, the presentation does add emotional/psychological value to me. To me it says that I made the right choice and that the company not only cares about the product they make but how it's presented to the consumer. It says to me that this company wants me to enjoy the entire experience.

Why do you think many luxury cars give you a leather bound owner's manual? It's just another small way that this company is saying to me that I've bought quality. I don't think it's should be any different when I buy a high end marker. There's a certain level of expectation that comes with buying a $1450 marker. You expect a lot for your money and if it's not delivered it can make the experience less than satisfing.

Now in the case of the SLF, if these were truely a limited production run then this should have been pointed out to us prior to purchasing them. That way we would have probably set our own expectations and if we still purchased one, then it's at our own risk.

How do we get around this. We'll maybe you can have a box design contest like you did for the intelliframe packaging. This way you don't divert attention away from getting the product finished. Maybe sub-contract it out to a design house? I think there are lots of way you can get nice packaging without having to do it yourself. If it adds 10 - 25 dollars to the cost of the product what's the difference, you're buying a $1500 marker so who cares that some of the cost is in the packaging.

In terms of overall importance, I think the packaging is third behind the product and the manual/video. More important to me that I have reliable product and quality documentation than a pretty box. But the box does help.

You're the one who ultimately has to decide what AGD is and isn't. If you don't want to put money and effort into marketing but would rather just let the products speak for themselves that's your choice. We on AO will still stand behind you and buy your products whatever decision you make.

[Creative Mayhem]

While the box does present the product in a better light, I don't believe that it's the end all be all. I personally don't care if the gun is wrapped only in newspaper and duct tape. :p If the extreme is going to be the corner stone of the company, not the box. While a good looking box is nice, it will like the others say, end up in the closet collecting dust. I still have my minimag box and it is doing just that, collecting dust. Theres just no "real" reason for the fancy schmancy box.

[Croix71]

I was one of the people that proposed if it's going to take a new box to draw in more people so be it. What I would suggest, as have others, that yes have a new box but how about having it different from the standard white box AGD has being using. What about a different color box (maybe black) with a large fancy eye catching red or green X-Treme logo stamped on it? If it's cheaper how about having a sticker made and putting the sticker on top of the box as it leaves the warehouse.

With something new and eye catching it'll bring forth a new identity to the X-Treme that this isn't ain't the 'Mag your daddy used 15 years ago. Include X-Treme stickers so people can plaster their X-Treme logo on their hoppers, tanks, notebooks. I feel that AGD should still use the classic `Mag in the standard white box but have the X-Treme in a standard black box with a fancy logo. You will have the Hard Core AOer's buy the X-Treme but something different to reel in the many who are uninitiated to AGD.

I agree with what the others have said in regards to advertising. Advertise in the magazines slowly with a black page with the new large fancy eye catching red or green X-Treme logo on it and leave it at that. As the release date for the X-Treme gets closer to tease people by adding snippets of the X-Treme. Increasing the coverage more as time goes on. I think this sounds better then just putting a pic of a prototype X-Treme and putting "Coming Soon."

The most important thing is spend the time on the X-Treme and fine tune the heck out of it. Perhaps send a few out to be reviewed by editors of the paintball magazines and online magazines before it's release. That'd be great coverage if the X-Treme gets in the front page and gets excellent reviews. This would hype it even further.

Just my $0.02

[luke]

(cphilip)
What is this preocupation with the Technology verses Marketing debate? Where does everybody get that? How come everyone seems to think one has to suffer for the other?

It's about where Tom focuses his attention. Like I said I don't know how AGD is structured in terms of departments and who does what, but, it seems to me that Tom takes a large portion of running the company himself. The box issue would probably take time from his other chores. :D

In my opinion the white box is fine. Why are WE worried about his marketing? What's in it for us? No matter how you look at the "box" it's going to cost him money, which will effect everyone by driving up the cost of his products.

:) luke

[cphilip]

I got two words for that...Del-egate. ;)

Don't try and do everything yourself. Let somebody who is strong in that area take it and run with it.

[cphilip]

Luke we are worried because we care. And he asked. Well I do not even think worried is the right word for it.

An anonamous member tells me this and I tend to agree with it:

The cost to produce the new boxes will be MINIMAL compared to all other things you are being charged for. And when you pay $1400 on a marker, you think even a $10 increase to cover any "costs" for packaging is even an issue?

And Tom could even NOT raise costs and take the bite himself initally, just make less per marker. The increase in sales will MORE than make up for it when he is suddenly considered a "player" again and his products actually MOVE off the shelves. Dealers sell products that MOVE....

See stimulating Volume outside the "AO box" is why we are recommending it. Worried? Naw...not me. Are you worried new folks might actually buy them Luke? That would be a shame.

Just playing with ya Dude! :)

[bofh]

Originally posted by cphilip
An anonamous member tells me this and I tend to agree with it:

[i]The cost to produce the new boxes will be MINIMAL compared to all other things you are being charged for. And when you pay $1400 on a marker, you think even a $10 increase to cover any "costs" for packaging is even an issue?[i]

Anonymous eh?

[luke]

Believe me, I do understand both perspectives, weather it's a business or a consumer view point. The underlying point I was trying to make was that I think it's silly for consumers to be concerned with how a company advertises. Why do they care if he makes more money threw better marketing?

Personally, dare I say, I don't really care how much he charges for anything, because I know what I am getting for my money, quality. I'm a diehard fan like the rest of you, don't get me wrong, I just think this whole thing is silly from a consumer point of view, if I owned stock I wouldn't be writing this. :D


Just playing with ya Dude!

I know, me too. :)

[cphilip]

Good debate huh? ;)

I do care that AGD stays a major player in the Market place. I want Braggin rights when I whip out my marker. Simple as that. I want them to help me sell others on the Mag. And so I am willing to help them. That's what loyal customers do. I know it's unique for a Company to even ask but what does that have to do with the answer?

[AGD]

This is a good debate and I see a way out of the delema from your feedback. We can go with a sleeve and make it a nice 4 color job with fancy graphics. I feel a contest coming on! Thank you everyone, as usual you come through again!!

All of us at,

AGD

[Load SM5]

Well considering it was our whining that put you in that situation it was the least we could do.;)

Does this mean when the extream boxes are released I get a free upgrade box? All us SFL owner's won't be happy unless that happens.:D

Thanks Tom

[Rynoboy06]

So these sleeves would un-delay the extremes? Or mitigate the length of the wait?

[Kaiser Bob]

I was hoping that the C&C would be out come shatnerball, so that we could represent with an army equipped with the best marker out there! But I guess waiting till you get it perfect for selling a ton of them would be a wise decision as well.

[ShooterJM]

I'll assume that the decision has already been made for the sleeve. But there might be another option as well.

Skipping the product vs packaging debate, it's comforting to see a manufacturer that puts as much thought into it's packaging as it's product.

Most paintball guns are sold off a rack not a box. I would suggest having AGD Europe contact some of the well known firearm manufacturers and seeing if you could co-buy gun cases. Most are well constructed and are relatively inexpensive due to the volume that they buy in.

I know many people that have dropped well over $70 on a case for their paintgun. By including this for a few dollars more I don't think it'll matter if the loader comes in a white box or even a bag.

Even if the group buy doesn't work take a look at this

11 x 7 x 3 1/2 molded polyethelyne case for like $22, foam included. I'm assuming there are other wholesale choices cheaper as well as volume discounts. I mean it looks like a briefcase, package your product in one of those with the AGD sticker on it and not only do you have more product differentiation, you have greatly increased your perceived quality (and that, as any marketing guy will tell you, is just as important as achieved quality).

Regardless, good luck!

[Strider]

Perhaps we should look at the computing industry? They have 2 modes of sale. The OEM, which usually involves the part in bubble wrap, with the bare essentials for documentation. Vs the Retail version, which comes in a box with "dummy" instructions and fluf.

Perhaps an OEM solution? Have the marker with the instructions and video elasticed together, in nothing more than a basic shipping box (Not even as fancy as the current white ones) with packing foam inside...

We can then have the retail version, with the shinny box and foamy inside. :cool:

Just a thought...

I'd just like to put my vote in for an all glossy black box with the ADG logo ontop, with the marker name. I believe that marketing, including the box *is* important to attracking a new customer base.

Or maybe velvet... Or Silk? (just kidding!):D

[Krazy Ivan]

I've read an easy 3/4 of these posts, and from what I can see the trend is AO doesn't care about the box. While I totally agree, and I don't care what the box looks like, other non-mag owners do.
I have an example: just yesterday I put in an order at my local pro-shop for a Max-Flo system. We began talking about high-end electro's. He suggested the shocker, and I retorted how I hated the Impulse, and that left a sour mark on Smart Parts markers.
He next agreed that the Impulse sucked and we moved on.
I suggested the Angel, because I've always wanted to shoot one, to get the Angel experience. Another guy sitting there listening to our conversation said, and I quote "Well that's all an Angel is. It's an aura of awesomeness. It's not that good of a gun, it's just the aura that is permeates it."

He was right, after all the Modernistic advertising, the pretty marker, and the flashy box. What are you left with? And E-Mag. They are the same beast! Functionally they might be different, however what does the new IR3 have that the E-mag doesn't? The IR3 has an LCD and some features that you will prolly never use.

It has an infrared port, useful for?? upgrading firmware? How many people have ever done this? For you computer even? Have a CD burner? Did you ever upgrade it's firmware? I bet 1 in 10 have actually thought about it.

The only thing that REALLY seperates the Angel from any Mag is the marketing. WDP is a marketing BEAST! TK if you plan on trying to topple or stand next to WDP in marketing prowess this year, I'm sorry but you are sorely mistaken. They have been doing this for years and have perfected an image, they don't need to change their gun at all to get more people to buy it. They have developed the "Aura" and now all they have to do is supply them.

The best move in my mind, would be to meet them with a C&C Extreme, real flashy, with all the level 10 features. Then before it's totally perfected and on the market(But not too far ahead..ahem..), let out teaser ads, not showing the actual gun, stating things like "From the depths of AGD's research and development" or something. You need a new image for mag's. We need a more mainstream, flashy look to draw in the people!

When someone looks on the wall of their local pro-shop what do they see? The Autococker that is all flashy with the flames going down the side(A la KAPP) and the Mini-mag, heavy SS. Now which will the laymen choose, the flashy one of course. It's not my opinion, just mere fact. I have taken countless courses in economics and advertising to realize what sells in this market, and it just isn't quality alone anymore. What people want is to see it flashy and milled out, then after they buy it and shoot it, they want to be able to turn heads and bodies to the dead box.

The box isn't as important as some think, but it still helps sales. The thing AGD really needs is some kind of advertisement that sings like the Angel AIR ads did. They were simple, to the point, but it pulled a lot of people in. For anyone who missed them, they were a black page in a mag, with a date written, then u turn the page and see the AIR logo, turn the page you see the AIR tank, with under it written "Breathe." Now these just used flashy fonts, and contrasting colors, but the simplistic design jumped out at you. A friend of mine looked at it and said, wow that's awesome, if I played paintball I would get one of those first!

Now those are the kind of people we need. The people who are starting out, looking at guns. The high end buyers are mostly well versed in their ways. I know that mostly 7 out of 10 people at my field I go to shoot or have shot Cockers soley for a good length of time. The others shoot electros or starter guns (Spyders, Fishies, Tippman's). The one's shooting Cocker's are generally (Around here) told to go to Angels or Shockers, and Ironically not one store around me(in the framingham/worcestor area of Mass) carry any E-mags. None of them carry Automags, and 2 of 3 I regular carry minimags. They all however agree that mags are on a downhill slide. Nobody who is new to the sport really knows about them. They are looking at the "Aura" of the 'Cockers and Angels.

I know this has been now dragged into a long rant, and I apologize, however to sum it up. AGD needs to get a modernistic, but simple ad campaign for the Xtremes and also make them C&C to start, then add in later the cheaper version, this is to compete more with the Angel in looks, and hopefully steal some of that power away.

I hope this makes as much sense to you as it does me..
Just my 1.50

[slayer]

I know you have to make money, but I have to tell you Tom: the reason I buy AGD products is that they work well and require like 0 maintenance. I don't play in tournaments, so I don't care about getting every last shot out of my tank. I don't want to pay extra for boxes, anodizing, or slick marketing. I want to pay money for a gun that breaks less balls, is well balanced, has an adequate(in the case of RT valved guns: insane) rate of fire. I don't play paintball to make a fashion statement. I go out there to shoot people, and if a gun made out of pvc pipe did it the best, with the least headaches then I would have one. WDP makes superb, over the top guns, but with all the advertisements, and sponsorships they give out, they are pushing up costs. All the advertising transfers into more costs for the buyer. If you want to pay for the image, as well as performance (since you pay for both) get an angel. If the level 10 mod thingy is revolutionary then I will send in my E-mag, otherwise I am happy. One thing I think you should do is hold companies that modify your products to your standards. All the complaints about emags that I have read are not about standard ones, they are either from shocktech, or pro teams. These companies are giving you a bad name. Yeah, they may look cool, and they get your name out there, but if the gun isn't working, the poor guy who owns an SFL is probably cursing his emag, not shocktech and his buddies are listening. If my buddies automag(the first one around in my parts) didn't work so well, then I gurantee my friends would not all have/had an automag.

Sorry if the post was long, but I think it is funny that people are worried about boxes instead of ball breaking issues, or ways to shave off weight.

[Puddleglum]

I would love to see the SFL and others come in a tin. Something the color of platinum stamped with the AGD logo would be really cool.:confused:

[pito189]

Here are two pictures of the Ir3 boxes.

[pito189]

Opened.

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
I don't think I can bear any more abuse over this issue since believe it or not I really do get emotionally wrapped up over things said here on the forum.


Tom,

I don't know if you will ever read this, but I was compelled to write it anyway. Much, if not all, of what I am going to say you may already understand. However, it doesn't hurt to hear it again.

I believe you when you say you get emotionally wrapped up in AO. It's probably not healthy. But then it seems to have driven you to where you are today.

When reading negative comments here on A0 those making them are discussing the company, not you. I know, you ARE the company. Those making the comments do NOT see it that way. These comments are just the opinions of those who have written them (and we all know about opinions ;) ). When posting something to a forum there is a sense of autonomy. The writer is somewhat isolated from responses. Their comments will almost always be harsher than comments made in person. Although there is a sense of family here, for the most part we do not know each other. Comments shouldn't be taken as if a friend of yours was making them.

You have no reason to feel beat up over the box issue. Those who think the SFLs and Extremes should be packaged in a better box believe that it will make a better impression on the purchaser. This in turn will improve the impression the purchaser has of the company that manufactures the product. The suggestions given are the opinions of those who gave them. Maybe they are right, maybe not. Even the best thought out idea may not work. Remember, if there was only one marketing methodology that worked, we wouldn't have anyone whose full time job is trying to come up with a better way to market products.

We, the customers of AGD, have a different agenda than AGD. While AGD (probably) wants to make the most profit possible while not compromising it's quality, we the customers want what we want when we want it. We want flawless products. We want them dirt cheap. We want everyone to be impressed with what we have. It is a difference worth remembering when asking for opinions.

Although I am tickled that I have had an influence on AGD (small influence), I am reminded of advice given to baseball coaches. "Don't let the fans pick your starting pitcher". I think it applies to AGD with respect to AO. Don't give to much weight to what is said here. What is "too much" is, obviously, difficult to determine. Just remember who we are. Nameless, faceless, anonymous people posting stuff on the internet.

Okay, I have rambled on enough. BTW, I have not read any of the responses, so I may be repeating what others have said.

Best wishes,
Hitech

[Chris]

For all of you that are saying you dont care how the box looks, great. But you must understand one thing. AGD does not need to sell YOU the marker...you already have one. AGD needs to get the newbies and people who dont have much experience in the sport to get their markers the old fashioned way.

Take, for example, the Mitsubishi Eclipse. All in all, not that great of a car. It is a mediocre car. A little flashier than a Cavalier, more expensive, about the same quality etc...etc...You know what makes these cars sell so well, its the marketing. Remember the ad with the "start a commotion" music? We all do. They have good looking men and women in their ads (sex sells) they have flashy cars, they have the ads that scream excitement. This sells to our generation.

AGD needs to focus more on getting newbies to notice their guns. Once you have been in the sport, you will know that AGD has quality markers, low maintenence, great customer service etc...but that doesnt matter to a newbie, who wants nothing more than a pretty gun. Look at the spyder shutter...perfect marketing gimick from Kingman. It is nothing more than a pretty spyder, same crappy quality and whatnot, but what makes them sell at a premium price is the marketing and the flashiness factor.

Here are my suggestions:
1) Get a pretty box, the idea I gave in my last post, or go more towards what the IR3 is shipping in.
2) Offer color choices on your mags, even if it is at a $50 premium. Anno the body rail and barrel, maybe even the grip frame if it comes with a metal one. (this goes for AM, MM, and RT Pro, and yes, I do know the RT Pro has a carbonate body rail)
3) Advertise flashy.
"What do you want to be? Good, or bad?"
Then show a picture of an all black mag, and one all polished up. Follow this one up with "Be yourself" and a picture of a custom anno job on an Emag. Or say something about going to the dark side...or the force being with you...whatever is popular at the time.

4) Simplicity works great, just like stated before, look at the Angel AIR ads.
5) SEX SELLS. If you want to stay away from that, fine...go another route and go with excitement. But look at the Lesbian/Kiss AIRS...see how many people are still trying to find those bottles..and are willing to PAY for them.
6)Advertise your warp feed as compatable with all other markers. Hell, take a picture of it on an Angel and leave it at that...when you take the picture, make sure the gun is slightly out of focus, but still identifiable, while keeping the warp in sharp focus. Make an ad with caricatures showing the difference between warp and no warp.
7) You have some of the best products available, be humble, be vocal...whatever you do, make sure you get word out.
8) Another advertising route, "No upgrades needed" Point out that your gun has been engineered from the get-go to function perfectly as it is.
9) Play off of your weaknesses, "Got marketing? We dont." Then put a picutre of TK with a dumbfounded look on his face. Next page, Tom is happy showing off his new Extreem C&C and a caption, "Our guns speak for themselves."


Just some suggestions, take them for what they are worth. I am no marketing specialist...but I do try and take notice of what is going around me.

Enough ides from me though...use them as you deem fit, if you find them worthy.

-Chris

[Rynoboy06]

I really like some of these ads. These look hilarious. maybe if AO comes up with some concept art these would have a better chance of actually being made.

[Bonx0007]

AGD,
Take the Dave Thomas approach. He was unable to finance a big name in his ads so he decided to be his own celebrity. From then on everyone knew who Dave Thomas was and he became famous because of his ads. Yours don't have to be as shameless as his were but you can show your participation in the company by playing off your weakness like what was said before. I do like the idea of getting some ads in APG an FaceFull. I actually stopped getting those magazines because nothing in them applied to me. Almost no AGD products premiered in any of them. There are rarely any photos of mags in them and that made it boring. If you want an all black mag with a warp I will volunteer mine just get some pics of your guns out. :D The fact is that you have to spend money to make money. Go out on that limb an get people to notice you. You should advertise the Emag Challenge to companies. A clear example of this is the recent chicken nugget ordeal with McDonalds. Carls Jr. advertised that there is no such part on a chicken as a nugget and that is why Carls Jr. made true white meat chicken breast strips. The result of these ads were that McDonalds started making chicken strips. I know nuggets and paintball markers are quite different animals but I think this same technique would be successful if used correctly. Invoke competition. I know all you gun manufacturors are friends but a little competition never hurt anyone. Your situation reminds me of a Giant that lets the little guy win because the Giant doesn't realize the power that he truely posseses. Your company has great potential but it is up to you on how far you take it, and I think you should take it to the Extreme!!!!!

[FatMan]

You know I remember seeing one of the first Angels to come out. Since then I've probably seen hundreds - and I've seen hundreds of Angels adds - but today was the first time I saw an angel box.

I think right now AGD would do itself more good putting some effort into advertisement than into a box.

On the other hand, there are those times when you want to stack up the boxed markers - like at a trade show or other demo situation - and a nice box looks good then.

The rest of the time noone cares. The sleeve solution is probably a good start.

But seriously, when it comes to slogans, logos, cool photos and graphics and pure SEX the folks at AGD are way behind the pack. Heck Kingman does a better job - and so do a bunch of other low-end makers.

I would never want to see engineering quality sacrificed for market sex, but it sure wouldn't hurt to get in the game. I'm not a marketing type myself, so I can't give good advice on this, but it does seem worth at least a little thought.

FatMan

[ShooterJM]

hehehe yeah

AGD - - Engineered Quality and Precision.

Then a picture of the factory with a big sign outside that says: Elves need not apply.

You could even put a couple little cocker elves picketing!

[Krazy Ivan]

To clarify the previous post. It was made to adhere more to expanding the Mag family. The post was not directed toward Tom or AGD in a bad way at all. I was merely suggesting that the mag sales, at least in eastern mass are falling dramatically. I walk into the local pro-shops and see maybe a 1' shelf in the case will be Mag accessories, including their barrels. Now I understand there isn't too many things to upgrade on a Mag, however when the ReTro valve, one of the most popular and important upgrade isn't offered, it tells you something about market perception.

[Yatta!]

Marketing Ethics 101:
If it looks good, it will sell, no matter what it is.



I haven't read all the posts but you got to take into mind that not everybody in this world looks at this forum. I bet over half of the people in professional paintball have heard of the two letters that directly links AGD to the consumer, AO.

Where am I getting at? Not all people think the way most AO'ers think. We don't care about fancy packaging, just the performance of the product and how well the product works. Hence the Automag, Minimag, Emag in its quite plain packaging, even though it is a great gun.

If AGD makes a box that is appealing to the eye, then people will be intriuged(sp?) because they will instantly think:"If the packaging is cool, then the marker might be too."

Examples: Make a fancy box= more sells. Make a fancy box+product+false myths of shooting distance=WGP. WGP has revamped the looks of the box, their marketing, their gun, etc. WGP sells are up...WAY UP. WDP has always made everything pleasing to the eye since the LED or was it the LCD and they have made big profits.

If AGD sells are good, the consumers benefit since that means more money for development of better and more products.
AGD, make a new box, make better marketing, and you will do better, from a business standpoint.



Yatta!

[Rooster]

I think the best way to approach the problem is the way AGD always has, give people something they will use. A cheapo plastic gun case is the best idea i've heard. Not only will it give you (customer) something useful, but it good be very useful to the company as well. No need to put packing material around your gun if you ever have to mail it, just drop the case in a box and send it. I also like the TK as ?Dave Thomas idea. I mean i consider him a paintball celeb, and i think the everyman ad campaign would be great for the mechanical markers.

[Ter-Me-Nate]

1st a box dont mean jack to me but,

i think the best idea is like someone said before

keep the same box,

and just have a cardboard slide over///sleve///, and just make it blue or somthing and slap on the agd lions symble in the middle

the one thats on the top of www.airgun.com

that should'nt be too expensive and would look sweet

anybody heard of bose speakers, well all there sales are almost all on ,,,hype,marketing, because for less money or the same amount you can buy a bad *** system that well blow it out of the water, and every day i talk to poeple that have never even heard bose speakers and they say
"ive allways wanted bose spekers they are the best"""

its a terrible truth in marketing""""it sells

[ramsee1]

I think a contest is a good idea. Of course I may be biased since I'm a package designer who happens to own a couple of mags. :rolleyes: :D

[Trunnion]

i like the wrap idea. it seems to be an economical approach while still making the box look prettier. personally, i still like the white box idea, but i know you're not trying to sell the gun to me, i'd buy one anyway.

[ramsee1]

Ok, I actually read this entire thread this time. As I mentioned earlier, I deal with this issue on a daily basis. The very first thing to do is take all options, have your design staff make mock-up packaging of these options and send them off to your production house in Hong Kong (or wherever you do your printing) and get price quotes on shipping and materials. Really these white one color printed boxes are reminiscent of self-shippers. The packaging is what you'd get in the mail. This is extremely cost-effective, but yes can be a little bland. You're going to have people that say "Who cares about the box" and others will say "hey get with the times and design a nice package". This is inevitable.
A full bleed 4C/1 printjob is definitely a costly proposition, but there are ways to offset the costs. The easiest solution is charge slightly more for the marker. Looking at that Nice Angel packaging, hell you can do that with a 1000+ dollar marker. Thermography, embossing, and foil wrap might not be the way to go on a 300 dollar marker. But if you get your pack-out size down and really reduce your overall cube size for shipping, you're well on your way to saving money (less overall space and less materials). I spend countless hours getting my product the smallest in can possibly be within a given space and over a run of say 50,000 it can save thousands of dollars.
As mentioned earlier, a white box with a designed 4C/1 sleeve is one way to go. Another way to go might be keeping the white box and putting a 4C insert on the inside that is nicely designed showing off all your other product. It is a good point that most people don't see the box until after the marker has been purchased. So money might be better spent on adverstising with the included inserts/posters/etc.
However I think I personally lean toward a box full of visuals and eye candy. I just bought my mag and I'm opening it at my house. My friend walks in and sees the cool new Mag packaging, picks it up, looks at the marker and says "Cool, I want one." Believe me, it happens with certain products. Shiny sells.
AGD seems like a tightly run ship, I am sure they are in control of the situation at hand. But I'd be glad to offer any ideas/assistance if it's needed.

[liigod]

yea im not pro agd everything by any means, but this makes sense. You guys wonder why your ir3 costs SO much more for a few features. Look at the box, u prolly paied ten bux for it.

[BTAutoMag]

yea but what i see with the ir3 is that if you can afford to buy an 1800$ gun you dont care if the box cost 10$

[CRiZO]

If a box contest happens, make a new post or something about it, I want in :) I'm sure a bunch of others do too. Woohoo, boxes make the world go round! They also protect myself from the rain. There isn't anything like coming home from a hard days begging to a nice box.

[SqueegeeKid]

The box my gun came in is the last thing i care about, and the first thing i toss out. It's a box!!!

If it came in a nice plastic/metal carrying case with the foam stuff, i'd be more interested in it. I bought one of those the moment i took my Mag home. But that would be expensive.

I bought a Mag cause i knew it was a b*&#@ing marker, not cause it had a flashy box. None of my purchases are based on packaging.

People are weird.

[Krazy Ivan]

You want to see great AGD marketing!

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34301

Level 10! We are like kids in a candy store waiting for the level 10 modifications! However what do we know about them. Close to nothing! This is the best marketing you could ever do. Give level 10 mods will be awesome! AGD needs to apply this style of maketing to the general public, and maybe the eastern mass market will get revived, and all the stores will carry 'mags!

[Riotz]

Originally posted by ben_JD
But, AGD needs to expand its base of customers. In the present marketplace, that means AGD has to appeal to the snot-nosed, "wow, that looks cool" junior high crowd who are just waiting to plunk down over 1000 of mommy and daddy's dollars on a new paintball gun to impress their friends. Currently, those piles of money are being sent to England as quickly as England can ship us fantastically shiny boxes full of LCD-laced paintball goodness.
[/B]


I agree with him. Everyone here is already biased. They don't care what the box looks like because they have already decided to buy one. But to expand, you need to look good. The majority of new players don't even know who AGD is. Many stores don't even stock mags or mag parts.

[FutureMagOwner]

heck man i still use my tippmann box for things such as my freak inserts and mask bag etc. ad i use my cocker box for tools and the like. i use one of my old cases of paint boxes for all the other stuff(spare barrels old parts tanks hoppers[i have like 12 hoppers now])

[FutureMagOwner]

another thing i forgot the fact is the box in most cases isnt nesscessary because if you order online or get it shiped they put it in another box anyway so its just cheaper to put it in bubble wrap or in a cheap plastic case

from an advertising stand point the plastic case is the worst idea you can do though because it will look like some trash brass eagle made or something and simple bubble wrap gives a cheap look to products more than just shipping the damn thing tied to a rope on the back of a truck being dragged all teh way to your house

[Mossman]

Hey TOM!!! I hope you get this far down.

I had an idea. :D

The new Nike Jordans cost ~150 bucks, and they come in a metal container for them with Jordan's logo on em. Listen to this. Simple aluminum cases are available at Home depot and Lowes and all those good places for 20-25 bucks. Imagine if you found a company who could make or already made a box that would fit an Extreme, Barrel, and Video. Stick a nice pretty AGD Lions logo on there, and whamo, a 25 dollar box (yes, I know). HOWEVER, this is a box that people would be willing to pay for! People can bring their Pretty CnC extreems to the field in their spiffy box, everyone would see that AGD is really turning a new leaf, and it all in all could be good press for you guys. If you elected to go the frilly way with the extremes and only sold CnCs, this could work out, cuz 25 bucks isnt hard to work into the price of a 1200 dollar gun. These pretty AGD work of art boxes will not sit in people's closets, they will sit on their shelves and tables proudly displaying their AGD Badge!

Well, I like it at least :)

-Sam

[jurassic]

Originally posted by Mossman
Hey TOM!!! I hope you get this far down.

I had an idea. :D

The new Nike Jordans cost ~150 bucks, and they come in a metal container for them with Jordan's logo on em. Listen to this. Simple aluminum cases are available at Home depot and Lowes and all those good places for 20-25 bucks. Imagine if you found a company who could make or already made a box that would fit an Extreme, Barrel, and Video. Stick a nice pretty AGD Lions logo on there, and whamo, a 25 dollar box (yes, I know). HOWEVER, this is a box that people would be willing to pay for! People can bring their Pretty CnC extreems to the field in their spiffy box, everyone would see that AGD is really turning a new leaf, and it all in all could be good press for you guys. If you elected to go the frilly way with the extremes and only sold CnCs, this could work out, cuz 25 bucks isnt hard to work into the price of a 1200 dollar gun. These pretty AGD work of art boxes will not sit in people's closets, they will sit on their shelves and tables proudly displaying their AGD Badge!

Well, I like it at least :)

-Sam

HMMMM........ Yeah! What Mossman Said!!

[Cypres0099]

An aluminum box would be SPIFFY!:)

[CRASHKING]

HEY Tom. just put the marker and equipment in a decent box with a logo or two. i would rather spend my 150 on a great "box that is water-proof dust-proof(but not shark proof:( )
here is the piccture of the box i would rather have than a cardboard onehttp://www.cpd-cases.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/1620.jpg

[Mossman]

Ya...What Mossman said ;)

hehe, that would own :)

[Mossman]

heres my box

[Mossman]

and...

[Mossman]

Oh ya. 1 more thought. If you bought tons of seperate boxes like that, new editions or names or markers wouldnt mean a new expensive run of full color boxes, just a run of 1 dollar a piece stickers :)

[Mossman]

:(

[Bwaites]

Before I went back to school and into the medical field I ran an insurance agency for 10 years.

What we are talking about with a fancy box is value added packaging. Fancy boxes sometimes work if you have a product that is overpriced due to cost overruns, marketing cost (endorsements), or simple price gouging. They don't work for people who are looking for the biggest bang for the buck.

Here are some examples:

Air Jordan basketball shoes come in a REALLY cool metal box. The shoes are priced about $200.00.(Everyone I call says $200.00, so if someone really knows where to get them at $150.00 you are getting a bargain!) Are they better than Nike's top of the line non-Jordan shoe, which you can buy for 50% less? Not for playing basketball, in fact I have yet to see a pair on an actual high level high school or college athlete. They ARE more prestigious for showing off the fact that you can pay $200.00 for your shoes. Does the box make them better? NO, it helps justify the reason they are $200.00, ie. value added packaging, the WOW issue. Car dealers used to call this "selling the sizzle", that new car smell is the best example.

The packaging on some electronic markers, most of which are mentioned above. People buy most of those guns because stores or salesman sell the sizzle, the cool looks of the gun and the packaging. People who do their homework know that those guns are not better than the Emag, and they buy Emags, because the Emag is generally cheaper and more reliable. A friend recently pointed this out whn he decided to buy a nonelectronic marker, based on his fear that an electronic problem could keep him from playing. When I pointed out the fact that my Emag can be used even if the battery is dead, he decided to look at Emags.

Another example, power tools. Black and Decker owns its own name as well as Dewalt. Black and Decker tools come in pretty, four color packaging, they have the "sizzle". They are the tools for the homeowner who is going to do occasional work. Dewalt tools come in plain packaging, they are professional tools, with heavier motors and frames. I understand that when Black and Decker was looking to move back into the professional market, they surveyed professional builders and carpenters about the different brands of power equipment available. Porter Cable tools were the highest rated, number two was Dewalt. At the time Dewalt tools had not been made or marketed for more than 20 years, yet so many were still in use that they were the 2nd rated brand! No fancy boxes, just well made, solid, tools. Sounds like my Mags to me!

Final example. One of the Pharmaceutical companies launched a drug here in the United States about 5 years ago. The medication had been in use in Europe for several years, with wonderful results. We knew about it, were looking forward to it. it came in a unique, highly innovative delivery system. When it was launched no significant amounts were available for samples. The only available package was for a 3 month supply, which patients had to purchase. Unlike most medications, they had to commit to the drug without knowing if it worked first. By the time the company had decided to sample it, about 2 years after launch, another company launched a similar medication with huge numbers of samples, it came in a less attractive delivery system, though the medication was similarly effective. The second medication now owns the lions share of the market, and the first, more innovative product, is still playing catch up.

Packaging plays a part in sales, Tom needs to make money to stay in business, so more sales means more money, which in Tom's case generally means more research and cooler stuff for us dedicated AGD freaks.

The question really is whether or not the box would have enough impact on sales to justify its cost. The answer is evident, look at the competition. They make fancy boxes for a reason, their research and experience says it increases sales enough to justify the cost. Now that they have established their market share they would stop making those fancy boxes in a second and take the extra profit at the same price, if they thought sales would continue to increase.

Most of us AO's would buy AGD products if they came in a brown paper sack, the boxes aren't for us, they are for the uninitiated, those who haven't bought AGD products before. I want my stuff in the cheapest safe packaging for shipping, but a new convert wants, and usually needs, something pretty to show his friends. I don't need other peoples approval of my purchase, I KNOW I have the best product on the field, but new purchasers aren't there yet.

My feeling is that the blown styrofoam inside plain box with a really well designed sleeve is the way to go. The sleeves allow easy running changes for new additions to the package, some printers will allow runs of 500-1000 of this type of sleeve. The styrofoam inside sturdy cardboard box holds up well and protects the gun well. I think new artwork is VERY important, for NEW buyers it may make or break the sale.

As far as delaying the launch, please don't. Some of us will buy them as soon as they are ready, in ANY package. That would get new guns (oops, markers) on the field and let people see them. Some others would buy them because of that. My Emag is now up for sale, hoping that I can buy one of the new, lighter, versions. (I'm old and need all the advantage I can get).

There is nothing wrong with marketing to those of us who have a healthy respect for the product early on and then getting the new box to market when you can, with a splashy launch.

This is about 10 times longer than I intended when I started, so I'll quit for now.

Bill

[Mossman]

WOW, gotta commend you on a very nicely written post. Ya, thats all true, but I still want a metal box :) even with a sleeve inside like you said, it wouldnt matter, and a box that you can actually use after you take the product out doesnt come around too often.

[hitmanng]

Tom I hope you are still reading this and you probalbly are because you are a fanatic about this stuff...
FORGET THE BOX!!!!
The problem is even getting guns in the stores. I have never seen an E-mag in a store. They will all order exactly what I want but there are none on the actual shelf. There is aways one 68 and one RT in most PB shops and a bunch of Cockers and 2-3 Angels Along with one or two of everything else.
I have never seen a PB gun in the store IN THE BOX! They are all hanging there so you can see them and handle them.
You are right. People do not see the box until after the sale.
If you don't believe me, I will do a poll on how many people saw the box for the marker they own before they bought the gun. I am assuming less than 50%. I still do not know what an E-mag is packaged in.
Spend your time and money on the markers and the marketing... not the packaging. The markers have to be in the stores for people to see them and buy them.. Right now they are not.
Hitmanng

[Krazy Ivan]

I totally agree with Hitmanng, you need to get the marker into stores first b4 you worry about the box. New people to the sport only hear about 2 markers, Cocker's and Angels. They fill in the spots later with the rest.

What AGD needs is a fresh marketing campaign to compete with the draw of the Angels and Cockers. It needs some sort of Aesthetic draw, then once they realize they can run over the thing with their truck, they will be stuck admitting that they should've come here first!

[BTAutoMag]

stop argueing over the box!!!

get a white box and put an AGD logo on it and get it over with

[Nitroduck]

Hey, heres an idea for you.

Obviously if you made a custom box for Mags, it would cost tens of thousands of dollars PER gun.

So here's my idea and solution.

Do what ICD did.

They have 4+ ano patterns, LCDs, non-LCDs, ect.

Heres my sugguestion.

Make a kick-butt box with tons of graphics and colors BUT make a one-box-fits-all box.

On the back, have pictures of all the Mags, and thier differances. IE talk about the non-RT , and how great it is, then one about the RT and what makes it great, then have one for the Emag, then one for the Extreem & C&C Extreem.

Remember your old ads, AGD ? The one with the military guy holding the RT and you provided a fact sheet on stuff on em.

If you'd like, I can do a simple layout for you.

I think this would be the best cost-effective way of producing a kick-butt box without destroying your wallet.