A rant......

[Load SM5]

I just got back from the worst day of paintball in my life. The SFL shot flawlessly but I ended up playing against the worst people possible.

Let me start off by saying that this is'nt my normal field, it's closer to my house and open on Sundays so I decided to give it a shot. I had'nt been there in a few years. It started promisingly enough. They had done some work on the fields and had a nice new one set up. I got set up and went to meet all the guys. There were 6 guys obviously tourney players and all on the same team form their matching hopper stickers. There were also 9 walk-ons half of whom left before I got to the field because I heard them say they were tired of being shot up and did'nt want to play anymore. Right away my poop radar went off. The tourney team invited my to play with them. I refused and went to play with the walk-on players to see if I can help out. So there is now a team of 6 versus 5 walk-ons and me. The first game fell apart as I expected. I could hear the kids yelling in pain as they got shot out one by one and knew I had a mugging coming. When it did finally show up the guy had me dead to rights. He could have shot me anywhere he wanted but he chose to shoot me right on the side of the head just in front of my ear from a just over a foot away.
I dropped like a rock trying to make my eyes focus again. I went and had a talk with the guy and told him I would've been so much more happy if he would've hit me in the foot, pack or really anywhere beside my ding-dang head! As of right now I have golf ball sized lump just in front of my ear that hurts when I put on sunglasses.

The nexy few games went pretty much the same with the team pretty much driving kids off covered in welts and paint. When one of the team players actaully volunteered to switch teams to make it fair, his captain yelled at him and told his the team had to practice together. What kind of experience do you gain by shooting up newbies? So it was the whole team versus the 4 of us that were left. After we got shot up again I let the kids shoot the rest of the paint out of my SFL invited their father to bring them to the field I normally went to and then left. I have never left a field before it closed until today and I'll never go back there. The whole experience left me with a bad taste in my mouth and a sick stomach.

I just had to get this off my chest. Now I get to go back to holding an ice bag against my face. I hope the rest of you had fun playing this weekend.
just had to get this off my chest

[Jonno06]

eh..what dillweeds...i hate people like that,you should have bunkered them.....or bonus balled em'....oh well....

[Load SM5]

I did bunker a few of them. But, one ok player, and a few newbies versus a team that plays together does'nt have too great a chance.

[Quiet]

That sucks. Who ever the refs are at that field they should be fired, driving away customers like that. My team almost never gets to play together to keep things even, when we do its usually 30 on 5 attack and defend.

Chuck a paint grenade in one of their cars:D

[HoppysMag]

ya we have a safty messure in place for situations like that.... his names kenny, paintballs always bounce off him and he can shoot like a case a game, and take a walk down the field with his spyder AMG in his right hand and his nitro tank in his left ( he keeps breaking his remote harness so he carrys the tank). for newbie being jerks i go in and bunker some skum.....

[Clare]

You should have borrowed Dansims' front man, those tourney players would have had nothing on him

http://automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=304023

[Load SM5]

The supposed "refs" consisted of one snot nosed little kid who was paid $40 to show up and wear a red shirt. He would never saw no to whatever the team captain wanted. And worse, he always wandered into my line for fire.

[Quiet]

Write a little letter to the proprietor of the field and explain to him how he is losing money because he doesn't manage it well. No matter how ignorant he is he will understand $$$$$$, the universal language. I had a ref compliment me on fairplay today, it made up for being overcharged for paint (in my opinion).

[Havoc_online]

you should have gone over the refs head and talked to the field owner on how his customers were being driven off and the refs not being refs. Better yet, you should get a couple of your friends together and goto that same field and hope they are there. That's what I would do, school them till they leave.

[shartley]

That is just a crying shame. Any reputable field would have stopped that before it even happened.

I wonder if the field owner knew it happened or if that is a common thing there. I would love to know the name and location of the field… hint hint This would make a wonderful research project and article for RumbleMe.com.

[hitech]

12 people isn't very many. And from your accounts, it's no wonder. I can't imagine that anyone other than the "team" would ever go back. I hope the "newbies" go to your normal field. If not, we probably lost five new players. :mad:

[slayer]

Bring your team to their field and hope they are there. Then return the favor in the side of the head.

[Miscue]

I've been in the exact same situation. I refused to play and complained to the refs because the teams were ridiculously stacked. One of the refs called me a "chicken." Well, he called me something different actually... :) I decided to prove him wrong - and that my previous decision had nothing to do with being afraid... but because it was a waste of my time and just stupid.

I told that jerk exactly what would happen... one way or another I would get lit up bad and my team would be useless and/or get wiped out... especially since we were in a small indoor field with a lot of people.

Although I got my share of kills... I got bunkered repeatedly. I got overshot... one game I came out and went to that jerk of a ref and told him to count how many different colors he could find. I told him these were from them shooting at me as I was walking off the field already dead. Every game they would not let me leave my bunker... they'd shoot up my gun w/barrel plug and arms as I was waving that I was dead.

And that team (dudes in 20s-30s) actually celebrated and bragged about how good they were and how they didn't have any competition. No kidding... bunch of 10 year old newbies with rentals they were up against. If I was there with my PB friends, we would have waxed them.

"I went out there to prove to you what a stupid m.... you are! I ain't scared of nobody - and I played knowing full well what would happen so I could show you and everyone else that you're full of... "

"Oh you're just mad because you suck."

Hopeless... I don't even bother to try anymore. People are too stupid.

[jurassic]

Several years ago something similar happened . But after talking with the field manager and getting no where, we left after 2 games. But not before another father and myself let the air out of all or most of the tires of the offending players trucks, 4 and 1 car. Did'nt take long at all!! I am sure every one will agree this was wrong. But the feeling of satisfaction was enormous!!;)

[Steve Crush]

LOL oh that is sooo WRONG, but i like it ;). I would talk to the owner and tell him/her yer story. The field i am at wouldn't let the field tourney team play with the rec ballers. tell him/her they just lost 3 players from playin at there field cause of it.

steve

[hardr0ck68]

where are you from?? if its anywhere within 8 hours of me i will volenteer to come by and play with ya...im not a pro, but i can already tell i have more skill than these twibs (tourny wannabes, a phrase coined in APG, they wanna think there on 'shock or avalanch so the play like jerks...) but im sure more AO'ers in yout area would come by to make these guys dance...and hey if we get shot up we can take some advice from this thread bonus balls, paint grnade in the car, deflate tired (perferable with a nail)...and i do belive i have been hearin about "the ol fork in the eye"....just a sujestion

[Load SM5]

The field owner is somewhat clueless about what goes on or does'nt care. He seemed nice enough but just..out of touch. The name of the place is Rock Diver's in Huntsville, AL. http://www.rockdivers.com/ It's also a scuba dive center/park and I think that's were most of the money comes from. I probably will send in an e-mail, but based on today's tournout that team may be the only regular customers there. This may be a self-fixing problem. I would bring the team I play on there to kick them around (even though it's a 3 man) but we would hate to give them our money and help them stay in business for another day. I'm sure we'll meet up at a local tourney and then...the ol' fork in the eye!!

[TheMagMan]

That sucks man, I wouldn't go back there either. At my local field we have a 20 foot rule. Get within 20' of a bunker and the guy is auto out. It's much safer that way because we have little kids that try out the sport and people leave the field unhurt. Also a real ref or field owner would of split up the teams evenly because team practices shouldn't be held on "walk on" days.

My 0.02

[Ultimator]

Argh I hate jerks. There's a ref who works down here who called me and a few other walk-ons "pansies" because we wouldn't play vs. a 3-man mag team (one had a retro mini, one had an e-mag w/ freak and warp, and I forget the other one). Stuff like that's pretty rare though.

On an off-topic note: Load, you should come down here and play some FAIR games with me and Smokee_2_7 at Xtreme Paintball sometime after I get my mag :)

[Load SM5]

I plan to although Carl's supposed to come back up here in a few weeks.

But I plan on driving down there at some point to play on the airball field.

[shartley]

Thanks for posting the field information... :D:D:D

[Load SM5]

So...what did you have in mind there, Sam?

[shartley]

This is actually a serious issue facing the Sport of Paintball. People fail to realize that “good” players did not get that way because they were outclassed every time they went out to play paintball. Most of us don’t mind losing (in almost anything) as long as we are giving it our all and have a chance (like they say, if you are never tagged out, you are not trying hard enough).. but what you described is FAR from being that way.

Also, it is far too easy to turn people away from the sport by just such actions. Field owners need to pay close attention to this and take measures to avoid it. What good does it do to have a bunch of “bullies” who come all the time to your field, but they run off any new players? It is actually counter productive for good business.

Here in New England there are many fields, and some cater to more aggressive play, others cater to “rec” play, and yet others cater to BOTH. It is not uncommon to see people directed to another field that is more suited to their style of play or skill level(s). This fosters responsible paintball players and advances the sport as a whole. It is a shame that there are some fields out there that just don’t have a clue. And the field you point out sounds like that type of field.

I will be drafting an interview with them addressing this issue, and posting it on RumbleMe.com. I will also post a link here on AO to the article. Who knows, the field owner may be clueless to what has been happening and may change.. who knows.. but we will see what they have to say about it. That is only fair and makes for good reading.

[Load SM5]

Sounds good...just leave any mention of me directly out of it. And I guarantee I'm the only long-haired SFL owner in Alabama. As long as this team does'nt hunt me down due to the article then go get em. I'm sure you would'nt do that to me, though.;)

Can't wait to read it. Hopefully something good will come out of it.

[dansim]

well it seems those refs have we dont care syndrome the same attitude the refs at ccpb had saturday , we were playing spools and the refs standing there lookin at everything but the game i tell him to check someone cause i blatantly saw him wipe my hit off and he told me i dont hit everyone i shoot at...to this i replied actually i do, i will shoot and shoot and shoot till i do hit them(field owner loves me i think im putting his kids through college) and then when another guy from the other team ran out of bounds and behind the ref to shoot our back players evryone that got shot was out(because the ref didnt see him)(he was behind him for cryin out loud he had to be out of bounds he was almost in the parking lot) then he told me and 4 other people if we wanna play tourney ball then play in a tourney we only wanted to play fair paintball thats all we ask and maybe a ref that does his job, of course that guy that ran out of bound had a sling and did get it caught in a tree right in front of half our team so he got his payback but i mean cant a ref do his freakin job i do when im reffing ..the sad thing is hes the head ref too im gonna sick my front man on him thanks cap!

[shartley]

I will be as discreet as possible. My intent is not to cause you harm, but to help open eyes....

If you would rather that I did not do the interview and article feel free to let me know, and I will not... But I am sure you can understand that it would be impossible to do the article without using your situation.

I can however still write an article ABOUT this type of situation without any interviews or specific fields mentioned. It will of course not hold as much weight, but could be "passed" along to that field. ;)

Let me know what you would feel more comfortable with...

[the JoKeR]

I guess I'm lucky with respects to the field I play at regularly. The team that practices there doesn't usually get there and get ready to play right away, so I'm warmed up a little by the time they play (it's Butterscotch Yo, by the way). Near as I can tell, they're there to have fun and only beat up on each other.:D Now me too, I'm guessing??:eek:

[Timmee]

... you can educate the field owner about what is happening at the field, and I hope someone can educate that team as to proper field ettiquite ;).

[Croix71]

I'm more inclined to just not play there. I'm sure the other fields in the area will be more than happy to take their business. :D

[Load SM5]

I don't mind you telling the guy what happened as long as you leave specifics out that could trace it to me. I'm sure the team will hear about it and since I play in the local tourneys I'll run into those guys again. If you just jot it down as a incident you read about on one of the forums you haunt, then I say go get them. I appreciate and respect what you're trying to accomplich and maybe articles like this will prevent problems like this in the future. If you need any more input about the incident for the article I'll be happy to help.

Thanks Sam.

By the way, my head still hurts like crap this morning from that shot. I could'nt even lay my head down on the oillow on that side last night. That stupid git.

[Ultimator]

Bunkering someone in the head. That's not something that just happens accidentally, either.

I don't see how you managed not unloading on the moron :)

[dave_p]

ive gotta say kudos to hogans alley in meriden ct. ive been playing 6 years but never there. i had my brothers bachelor party there yesterday and i must say its a class act. the safety briefings were thorough, you chronoed every time you walked into the playing area, no exceptions. no bunkering(i dont mind bunkering at all, just choose your shot, like load said pack, foot, leg and one shot will do it at point blank, its gonna break). htey did a good job explaining the fields to the newbs(out of fourteen, only 5 had played before) they had woods, hyperball, air and a spool field. the hyperball field rocked. as soon as you called for a paintcheck a ref was there instantly and called the bunker neutral(not allowing anyone to move on you while you were being checked)until you were called out or clean. they did an excellent job of getting the newbs off the field without being overshot. all in all it was the most professional setup ive seen. food and drinks were cheap, as was the paint. they rent impulses so renters can at least not feel out gunned. its a cool place, good well stocked store too.

[pip_999]

Originally posted by Load SM5
the ol' fork in the eye!!

arrg you stole my phrase :D:D

[Load SM5]

You stole it from Moe first.:D

[Timmee]

You play in Meridan? Where is it located? Close to 95, 91, or any other highway?

[MPC-Tim]

This thread and an e-mail I got today have me very concerned about bunkering and advanced players playing in opens with new or even intermediate players. As a field owner I want everyone to have fun and enjoy their time at my field. This in itself is a dilemma.

Do I turn away advanced players from my open/walk on play because their will be new players there? If I do I lose business.

Do I turn away new players from my advanced opens, who even after warnings, want to play? If I do I lose business.

In the past week I have had complaints from new players that they are being bunkered to often and to hard, as well as complaints from advanced players that after 2 shot bunkers the new players turn around and shoot them. Thank God, no one has been shot in the head like the author of this thread.

Here is what I try to do at Open/Walk on Play Sessions

1. I have several experienced refs on the field.
2. I split up teams and experienced players to even out teams.
3. I talk to the experienced players to make sure they gauge their play to the people in the open.
4. The refs has the power to call players out that over shoot and to ask them to leave the field. I will back their decision all the way.

Here is the other side to this dilemma.

1. The new guy with the automag and warp feed or angel that plays on or over shoots.

I try to make everyone happy, but I had an Intermediate player complain that the other teams firepower was too high. (The other team was 8 semi-auto rentals, a Tippman 98 and a 5 year old Autococker).

As a field owner I don't know what to do to make all of my customers happy, any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Load SM5]

Tim,

It sounds like you have the right idea. As I said this is not the field that I normally go to. That field is a well run field that cares for it's customers and has a good number of well-trained refs. The new players and walk-ons are divided up amongst themselves and don't generally play with the experienced or tourney players.

As a new tourney player I still remember when I was new and hated the thought of being on the field with a tourney team and the fear of being lit up and humiliated. To me this would not have been fun. As a more experienced player I would never try to get in on a rec game with a church group because I know I could cause problems just by showing up on the field with a jersey and $2500 dollar marker set-up. So I don't. If we don't have enough new players or experienced player to make their own game then we divide everyone up equally, impliment a no-bunkering 10 ft. rule, and have a strickly enforced overshooting rule. (More than 3 broken balls and you get to go sit down for a while.)

After the new players go off and do their thing, we decided amongst ourselves if we want to allow bunkering or not. More often than not we have no problems with it. We are all used to it and since we are all friends when we do have the opportunity we do it with as much consideration as possible. Especially, against a helpless or unaware opponent, we always aim for a shoe or a pack, and never the head. I understand 3-4 shots to the head can and will happen in a tourney. But a rec game is a different matter, he could have been considerate, and that was what infuriated me. That, and the way the other team and the snot-nosed kid ref, that did not take his resposibilities seriously, did not care to make the experience enjoyable for a father and his 2 sons, who were not there to practice....but to have fun. They did not.

So I would say "as a field owner" you have the right idea as to what to do to make your customers as happy as they can be. Your field sounds like one I would love to come and play at,... with the experienced players, of course.;)

Thanks,
Jeff

[shartley]

NOTE: It was NOT me who sent him the e-mail and Thread.

Looks like someone stepped in front of my idea, and did what Load had asked NOT be done.. oh well. I probably still have good material for the article here.

I just wanted everyone to know it was NOT me.. thanks.

[Load SM5]

I don't think anyone sent Tim this thread, I think he just found it the same way everyone else did. I just think he recieved another unrelated e-mail and a combination of the two got him concerned.

At least, I hope that's the case.

Keep up the article.

[MPC-Tim]

You are correct Load,

I saw this thread the same day as receiving an e-mail from a concerned player at my field. I hope I will be able to partially solve this issue in the next week. I currently only have one field in my indoor facility, but when my Sup Air comes I will have 2. My thought is I try to push the higher level players to the Sup Air field.

Any thoughts about other ways to control this kind of activity in a 1-2 field facility?

[the JoKeR]

The good of the many outweigh that of the individual. If you have mixed teams, with rentals and high-end players, those high-end players have to turn it down a notch. If they don't, it'd be my expectation that the rental players won't come back and the business won't grow. I know I wouldn't have gone back if the players at my local field would have abused the rentals when I first started playing.

Truth be told, I'm the one who sent Tim the e-mail, to express my concern over some bunkerings in hopes that it doesn't cost him business or lead to other problems. I consider myself somewhere between intermediate and advanced, and I had a problem at the field that I felt needed to be addressed. Luckily, Tim cares enough about the business to be on-line actually checking his mail (unlike many other companies *cough* 32 Degrees *cough*) and more importantly responding to them.

It is my opinion that ANY field owner would be better off pulling the armband of a single player (or more, if needed) if that player is unable to restrain his actions on-field. Translation: if some guy really thinks it's a great idea to come over the top and head-shot bunker a 14 year old kid with a rental, maybe he shouldn't be allowed to play. Yes, he might buy a lot of paint and air, but so do the people that rent the guns. A good reputation is worth it's weight in gold and will bring you more business.

That is the basic information in my e-mail to Tim. He's a good guy and he's got an excellent facility and I want to see his business succeed. This message and my e-mail weren't meant as a rant, but as (hopefully) constructive criticism.

[MPC-Tim]

Thank you Joker for the e-mail.

I'd rather people told me their concerns so I can take the opportunity to make things better. Your e-mail was taken as constructive criticism. I have worked very hard to make MPC one of the better facilities in paintball and through players comments I hope to make it the best.

Another criticism that I have had is our open/walk on play starting late. The problem I have is most players arrive to our opens either 5 minutes before the open starts or 10 minutes late. By the time we get the orientation done and players tech their markers it can be 30+ minutes later. Usually we extend the open to give the players their full time slot, but this really hurts those who show early. Running an orientation every 15 minutes is not really possible either. Do you think a video taped orientation is adequate?

Any help with this issue would be a great help also.

Joker, none of this is aimed at you I think you were there almost an hour early.

Thanks,

[the JoKeR]

I'm on Vince Lombardi time. If I'm 5 minutes early, I'm really 10 minutes late! I HATE being late for anything! I was also very early because I had no idea where your place was:) Maybe instead of saying the game starts at 7:00, say "Orientation starts at 6:45 and the games start after that and run till 10:00". I don't think you'll win that won easily, since some people just can't get there by a specific time. Maybe having orientations every half hour or every 15 minutes to add people as needed? A video might work, but my concern is that people would be sleeping through it. I heard CPX does the video orientation and it's done in a way to keep player interest.
Personally, I'm used to games not starting anywhere near on time. PB Dave's open games can start an hour late. PB Sam's normally start late as well. I'm a big boy and can stay up past 10, so it doesn't bother me much, as long as the people holding up the games are at least making an attempt to get ready quickly. If they're just sitting there talking, screw 'em! Start without 'em!

[RobAGD]

Oh boy, one of my favorite topics.

Having been a ref and tournament play for as long as I have been playing paintball I know what the field owners and experanced players sees on the field.

As a ref I alway watched team to make sure that there were no flatout lopsidedness going on between guys form teh same teams. If I had more then a few teams guys and it was a light walkon day I woudl make them go play amongest them selves and give them a ref if I had an extra. If I had a small walkon crowd and they played I limited the paint they couold play with. I would also not allow them to bunker new players ( and if you cant tell a newb shooting a rental Tippmann and a dude with a Angel or high end gun you shouldn't be playing this game at all )

Being a team player I have never lit up a newb unless they were doing something really stupid like playing on wth a goggle hit, wipping hits ext, and by lighting up I am refering to putting more than 2 balls on them but less than 5.

If I had to bunker out a newb they got shot in the gun, foot, pack.

People that cant do this shouldnt be allowed to play with walk ons.

Ill give you a wonderfull example of what I mean.

A friend and I drive to a field in NJ to play a little walk ons. We drive to fields and just play and have a good time. We get paint and air and they divide up teams and I see an problem. My team with 7 plays are Me, Russ, a girl thats just got her Spyder SE, Her Dad, and what look like 2 renals, and the 7th player I dont recall. The other teams 7 are all what I would call experanced walk ons ( agels, High End Cockers ect ) They have played here a lot and they know each other and I see they are laughing and joking about the teams.

This sets off my prick radar and I tell Russ " We have to Own these guys " Russ has been playing paintball for close to 17 years and I at this point had been playing for about 6 or 7.

Fist game we start out in a classic line, Russ pulls a muscle in his leg and is gimping it. We shoot a few guys on our side and we notice the 4 people to our left are gone. I pull and fill and shoot the rest of the other team. Between Russ and I we shot them out every game the first 4 games.

Now add to this the refs telling them when and where we were coming ( i was going to back door the last player and teh ref told him to turn and shoot, he missed and got 4 in crotch vs his pack :), them playing on after getting hit, running out of bounds then back in. Made for a real fun day. Once other people starting showing up they all went on the other team at the end of the day it was 14 vs 7, and as too be expected we were getting walked all over, getting over shot and in general it sucked. I asked to even out the teams just a tad, 1 or 2 players and the ref laughed and say no, the teams were even.

We were penalized for the fact they sucked :) I'll take my lumps and have over the years because the team I playing on blows and cant work together. I have seen walk ons with no experance whip the crap out of some experanced players because they played as a team together.

Team guys should not be allowed to play walk ons. I would have hated to see what would have happened that day if Russ and I were not good players. That girl I mentioned with the Spyder SE is still playing and is now playing with a tournament team, he had more game than her day that day and played well, but how much fun would she have had if she was just getting rolled time and time again ?

As experanced players we need to foster new players, not beat them into submission for our own personal enjoyment, thats what gimpy teams are for :D Not walk ons.

As I was saying, I know both sides. I have been both the ref and the player, do you re order teams because 1 team just cant work together ? Do you ruin other people good time and team work by spliting them up ( refering to walk-on rentals types ) ? At my local field I am flat out not allowed to play with ANY of my friend because and 2 of us are worth 5 to 10 walks typically. We don't abuse people, we dont over shoot, we are just very effictive at working down the field and shooting out people.

If a field owner is going to take poeples money he need to take the responcablity to make sure his customers are not going to be abused. And if his experanced players can't control them selves then they need not play walk-on. They really shoudlnt be any way.

-Robert

[hitech]

Originally posted by RobAGD
At my local field I am flat out not allowed to play...

I use to have the same problem. I'd been kicked out of almost every field around. I landed at a friends field because he would let us (me and a buddy of mine) play. A typical day there is 30 or more players on each side. That makes it easy to keep things even and keep newbies from getting over shot. Sometimes the teams are altered slightly every game. If it's not competive, it's not fun.

[the JoKeR]

Amen on your post, across the board. This is a game, not a tournament, and we're all out there to have fun.


Originally posted by RobAGD
At my local field I am flat out not allowed to play with ANY of my friend because and 2 of us are worth 5 to 10 walks typically. We don't abuse people, we dont over shoot, we are just very effictive at working down the field and shooting out people.

That happens regularly at the indoor field I play at. Animal and I are usually split up, probably because we're on the same 3 man team. Although it's nice knowing somebody has your back and won't shoot it, it's also fun to go up against an "enemy" of a comparable skill level. I wouldn't mind more time practing as a team, but nobody else is there to be our practice targets.

[hitech]

Originally posted by the JoKeR
I wouldn't mind more time practing as a team, but nobody else is there to be our practice targets. [/B]

Too bad you're not around here. I LOVE being a torunament teams target pratice. It's much more competive, therefore much more fun. :D

[MPC-Tim]

We offer team practices on Sunday afternoons at $5 a person and $60 a case of paint so that advanced players have a place to go all out. We've had few takers so far though. I expect that number will go up with Sup Air and winter.

[the JoKeR]

Originally posted by hitech
Too bad you're not around here. I LOVE being a torunament teams target pratice. It's much more competive, therefore much more fun. :D

I didn't mean to make it sound like I'm Mr. Tournament or anything. I just play some 3 man local tourneys, and we hold our own. Put me up against a REAL tourney player and I'll wet my pants!:D

[hitech]

Originally posted by the JoKeR
I didn't mean to make it sound like I'm Mr. Tournament or anything. I just play some 3 man local tourneys, and we hold our own. Put me up against a REAL tourney player and I'll wet my pants!:D

Me either. The last tournament I played in was in 1991. Things have changed a little since then! ;)

[skipdogg]

My opinion on what to do with newbies and advanced players is this: If at all possible split up the players into two groups, and have them play on separate fields. With a 2+ field facility, this can be easily done with simultanious games. I suppose the dilema here is; what if there are only 20 total players? Spliting it up to two games would be pointless. Well, then i would say the "advanced" people will be so few in number (maybe 10-15 of them out of the 20) that you can take them aside during orientation, or before the game to say "take it easy on the newbies" My suspicion is that most players would respond to that. We were all newbies once. And if an "advanced" player doesn't seem to get that during a game, then the point either needs to be made stronger with him/her individually, or they get tossed. Some people are just "unpleasent" people anyway, and it may be someone that would be good to ban. a normal person is going to listen to the field. a jerk isn't.
As for Tim at MPC about the orientation times. I would definatley say that multiple orientations are needed througout the night. The people that come on time or early want to play. People that come late are obviously not in a hurry to play. So, yeah it would suck to give 10 or so orientations a night, but it would get the games started right away for the people there!! im a person that hates latness also. if i went to a field that was constantly late and i didnt feel i was getting my money's worth, i would stop going!

just my .02

[the JoKeR]

That works for most players, but I'd guess we've all seen players who think they're God's gift to the sport and are above the rules. It's players like that that I can't stand. I know I've overshot people, or accidently shot a ref or somebody who is already out. We all have. It's when somebody does it on purpose and repeatedly that problems arise.

[FatMan]

Tim, a few thoughts:

- If you are offering teams practice time, you are doing the right thing. A REAL team doesn't want to practice with or around the newbies.

- Even if you have one field - if the teams are out, alternate newbies and teams on the field (works fine indoors anyway - the teams reload while the newbies play). Any newbies who WANT to play with the teams can - but they take their own risks.

- REAL teams don't WANT to play with newbies - it actually HURTS your game. It makes you sloppy. People who like to shoot up newbies are just bullies (and yeah, you know who you are).

- If team players and/or experienced rec players must play with newbies due to low numbers, they must be divided up, they must follow newbie rules (no bunkering, 10ft rule, no overshooting, etc.), the rules must be well enforced by a competent ref - and they need to understand its RECBALL not a tourney. It's just a game and not worth yelling or cursing or otherwise loosing control.

- A tried and true mechanism is to have the ref choose the two best players and let them act as captains and alternate choosing players (the PE method). After those teams play each way, redivide the teams - possibly with different captains.

- Any loss of business due to players who won't deal with these issues reasonably is money well invested in your field's reputation.

Finally, I'd like to bring up another dilemma: there are the bullies who like to beat up on newbies - then there are the whiners who call everyone a cheater at the drop of a hat. This makes the ref's job really hard. Just because some guy comes up and says - hey that guy's wiping or shot me in the head on purpose or stepped out and then kept shooting - doesn't always mean that's exactly what happened. I'm lucky that I haven't seen TOO many of the newbie killers in my time playing ball - but I've seen a lot of the whiners. This is where you REALLY rely on your refs being serious about their job. They have to get to know the personalities on the field and keep and eye on things. I've heard quite a few people complain that it was that guy with the Angel and there was no way they could beat him, when in fact, they made a stupid move. The guy could have had a pump and it was going to be the same. It's not much fun when someone wants you off the field because he's a poor player - when playing with you MIGHT help him improve his game (I've never had this happen to me, but I've seen it - and it was NOT a case that I thought warranted the complaint).

Anyway, chew on that for a while.

FatMan

[Steve Crush]

When i'm a ref take last week for example heres what i usually do. Like in fatmans thread. I'll usually make captains " ok who wants to be captain" whoever raises hands i choose captains. They choose teams. Or when i choose teams i usually go from skill lvl and split up from the top down. Then it's game time they run some games 2 maybe 3 if there not fair, we do it all over. I was refing a game and it was like 4 against 1 the one was a 10 yr old newb with a talon. I was right there by the kids side ready to call him out the second i knew he was gonna get hit. well naturally he's getting flanked on both sides next i here "take it easy it's a little kid"(he eventaually called himself out). About the whiners i know all about it :mad: All i here is "he's hit REF go check that guyy WAAAAYYYYY over there he's wiping paint" I'm like ok (knowing he prolly didn't wipe). When my field had a tourney team the owner wouldn't let them play with the rec ballers period.


steve