AGD Shot Turd!!!!!

[AGD]

ALL,

Yes we did it! We shot Turd at full auto more than half a hopper. He swore so much they bleeped the whole darn thing and you never heard the marker firing.

For those of you out of the loop, Mancow had his guy Turd came out to AGD specifically to get shot up at full auto live on the air all over the country.

Before anyone goes off the deep end, unknown to people in radio land he had a 1/4" thick piece of rubber under his t-shirt. The same rubber we used in our testing machine to stop the nylon balls. All the fear and cussing was for show, you know, MARKETING. His oversize belly ended up red but little else!

The AGD staff was there as well as a bunch of the local police. The cops only came by because they wanted to see him get lit up!


AGD

Shooting Turds at 20 BPS (http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/urdZ.rm) (1meg Realplayer)

Shooting Turds at 20 BPS (http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/urdZ.mpeg) (1.8meg MPG)



Shooting Mancow at 20 BPS (http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/cowout.rm) (800k)

[giblit]

im so confused about what happened

[AGD]

Looks like we did get one good pic so far.

AGD

[synreal]

and even after seeing clothing torn to shreds JJ is gonna let us bring our FA toys to CPX :rolleyes:

glad i picked the right team....

[the JoKeR]

Originally posted by AGD
The cops only came by because they wanted to see him get lit up!


Hahaha!:D
Glad there's no REAL crime around NE Illinois!

[Jonno06]

sweet....that is so cool

you da man TK.....i want to go to Shatnerball so bad now...

[BTAutoMag]

YOU DA MAN i wanna shoot him too. wait. i just wanna shoot that fast period.

[Butterfingers]

Wow I wanna see the vid... How fast was the ROF?

*SHAMLESS PLUG*

For those of you off to CPX I hope you know where you can get high quality e-mag based full auto weaponry :)

[personman]

Its it still going on? I turned it on for a second, diddnt hear it. I guess its over. I diddnt want to miss it. :(
Well, I sure as heck hope someone recorded it.

[shartley]

LOL That is too funny. I have to admit it. But here is a warning....

Before anyone goes off the deep end, unknown to people in radio land he had a 1/4" thick piece of rubber under his t-shirt. The same rubber we used in our testing machine to stop the nylon balls. All the fear and cussing was for show, you know, MARKETING. His oversize belly ended up red but little else!
However, with that being said….. I can understand the power of marketing, and this IS a funny stunt, but ONLY funny if you "know" he had protection. The fact that it IS unknown to people in radio land (the ones thinking it is real) is the problem.. wouldn’t you say? ;)

What this means is that you don’t want anyone going off the deep end because they think it was unsafe, but openly admit that the general public WOULD think it is unsafe, because “unknown to them” he had protection. Kind of a catch 22 isn’t it... unless he goes back on the air and explains what really happened.

How is getting hit with paintballs and cussing like it hurt very bad help paintball? Sure it helps HIS show, but how does that advance paintball as a whole when we are constantly trying to promote it as a SAFE sport? This is more like a “Jack (you know the rest)” TV Show stunt. Again, I can understand how funny it is, but is it truly helping paintball… that is arguable.

I would also advise that before showing any more pictures (here on AO, or anyplace else) of the guy’s shirt all ripped up, that MAJOR disclaimers be posted along with them. This is NOT the image that will make parents want to run right out and let their kids play paintball. I am not trying to be a pain, but I KNOW how easy it is to use this type of stuff against people.. and I would hate to see that happen.

Great job on the publicity, and being on the radio… but I can see a very large PR problem if this is taken the wrong way, and it very well could be. There are two sides to every coin and it seems that sometimes people either don’t look at both of them, or don’t want to… but they are still there. I hope everyone involved thought this whole thing through from every angle.. but I really don’t think so.

Think I am being rough? I am not. Trust me. I am a paintball supporter…. think about what anti-paintball folks could do with it…. I am just giving a heads up, and hope things don’t backfire.

[AGD]

***************HERE IS THE VIDEO***************

Shooting Turds at 20 BPS (http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/turd4.rm) (500k)

[wyn1370]

Originally posted by AGD
***************HERE IS THE VIDEO***************

Shooting Turds at 20 BPS (http://www.automags.org/turd4.rm)

it's not working Tom
could also be said "I don't think so Tom"

[synreal]

evil? maybe, but that is, bar none, one of the funniest things i have seen in a while :D

does that marker have the level 10 installed by chance?

[Cristobal]

Hmmm, works fine for me.

Although I think it must have been funnier in person; it just seems kinda silly on the video.

[shartley]

LOL Funny video. And I am glad that you can see that he IS wearing something under his shirt. ;)

Oh.. and where does he think he is going? :D:D:D

[wyn1370]

what type player works on this. my computer trys to open it with realplayer 7. but then the it says I need to update my realplayer, which of course is some stupid 14 day free trial, then you pay.

[synreal]

i'm using RealOne Player (the free one, not trial) its link is kinda buried in the center of the downloads page on Real

[wyn1370]

oh well, my surf control locked me out of the realplayer website.

[beam]

Was that level 10? Sounded quiet to me!!

[iisp0tii]

lol, thats great! it sux for who ever isnt on tom's team. i know almost all mags will be on toms team. wish i had some money to go up & play.

[DJSOLID]

Tom gonna do some da-mag-e na na na na boo boo.

[56kSomeGuy]

WOW i just watched the clip!:eek: :eek:

[Jonno06]

lol.....

you shot off Mancows head...and his arms and legs.....lol...

turd is a wuss.....

[personman]

Kewl. :)

[martlet1]

cant even see the video. Computers at work wont let us us Realplayer... ANY OTHER FORMAT IS FINE.. Realplayer is SOOO bad.

[sk8dood]

Tom that was the funniest thing! i watched it like 10 times in a row laughing! thanx for the laugh!

[DOWNWITHANGELS]

I do agree this was funny. I am a huge cow fan and it was great seeing him and turd get a little payback. This can be good and bad for paintball. Like mentioned earlier, people didnt know he was protected, but on the other hand, people might want to get a paintball gun that can shoot that fast. Good shootin Tom.

[SlipknotX556]

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA NICE TOM!!!!!!!!! The first one was the best. The second one was even also funny. You shot off his legs and head. AHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Thanks for the funniest 10 seconds of my life tom.

[Load SM5]

Originally posted by SlipknotX556
The second one was even also funny. You shot off his legs and head.

Second one? Is there another video?

[thei3ug]

This whole experience has ruined listening to radio for me.

With the sensationalization Cow put on it... the "illegal" emag, the use of the terms "machine gun" and "bullets," Kathy screaming "he's gunna get hurt! Don't do this!" Cow 'insisting' that Tom make turd use a mask, and the other misconceptions he purposely fed when he knows better.

The description of AGD as a secret factory with passages and elevators to warehouses full of guns, the incorrect (though flattering) description of Tom, and Turd's ugly face...

I knew this happened. I catch them in it every day when they cross subjects i know. But... this sort of struck it home.

Morning radio is ruined for me forever.

[BTAutoMag]

Originally posted by AGD
***************HERE IS THE VIDEO***************

Shooting Turds at 20 BPS (http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/turd4.rm) (500k) uh could we have that in mpg format?

[RobAGD]

for the love of god something other than Real.

AVI MPEG MOV anything but Real

-Robert

[slayer]

I need the hook up. I have the emag and the warp. I need some full auto capability. There are some people that I have to teach a lesson to. I want to know that they soiled themself in fear, before I run over and bunker them.

[raehl]

There are better ways to get publicity. This was just stupid. Yeah, listening to Turd cuss up a storm while getting shot by paintballs is REALLY going to make anyone want to try the game. That's not even the bad part though.

Do me a favor. Take that video offline and NEVER put it up again. EVER. The last thing I need is that showing up at some government hearing I'm going to where people are trying to get paintball banned and having to explain that paintball guns can't REALLY put a 8" circle of paint on someone's belly in 5 seconds. And if you don't think opponents of paintball scour paintball websites looking for stuff like this you're sorely mistaken. Oh, he had a 1/4" inch rubber plate for protection and that's supposed to be a good thing? Yeah, until the government representatives on whatever committee start thinking that everyone needs to have 1/4" rubber plates to be protected from paintballs.

It's bad enough that there are people out there with a complete lack of understanding about the sport trying to get us banned, but to see paintball companies supply them with the ammunition to come after us is quite depressing.


In any case, I would appreciate it if a moderator would delete the video from the site ASAP.

- Chris

[bob87]

Can we shot cphilip nexed?;)

[pumpamatic]

Attention every in any state surrounding and including Illinois:


It is necessary that you evacuate your homes immediately. There have been reports of a paint-shooting maniac throughout the area. Last seen wearing blue jeans and a black sweatshirt.He may be posting on this board under the name AGD. Claims to be the president of this "AGD" and once claimed he exclusively owned a fully automatic Emag, with devastating power up to 20 balls per second. His marker may be changing forms a little bit, last it was seen it had what witnesses claim to be a "Modular" body. Should you encounter this savage do not attempt to return fire.

[Gunga]

Choose your implement of pain!

[Gunga]

He doesn't know what he's in for!

[Gunga]

Ready...Aim...

[Gunga]

FIRE!!!!!

[Gunga]

That piece of rubber really helped! :D

[Gunga]

Uh...he had some rather rude words for Mancow after they went off the air. ;)

[Gunga]

Man...that was a new shirt!

[Blazingace]

UUUUUUUHHHHHHH............OK He got lit up for 5 feet away. How many times did he get shot? What is the point if he has that heavy rubber sheet? It would have been more fun to shoot him from 30 ft without the rubber. Awesome mags though.

[Gunga]

Ref! Where'd I get hit?!

[Gunga]

Uh...thanks for the good time? :)

[AGD]

He got about 100 rounds in 5 seconds. If you notice there are no welts at all.

AGD

[raehl]

Please, Tom, seriously, get the video off the net. That needs to be put where the sun don't shine, along with all the pictures of the shirt with holes in it. you guys are giving people a chance to represent paintball under extraordinary circumstances as normal circumstances.

- Chris

[Load SM5]

So what's involved in temporarily flashing e-mag boards for full auto?:D

[Potatoboy]

Did he not have any welts because of the mat?

Or because of weltless perfect circle rounds?

[Jack_Dubious]

Raehl,
I dont see how a radio publicity stunt, in a controlled enviroment with safety equipment and adults could be used as ammunition to ban all paintball.

Now a video of teenagers driving around and shooting unsuspecting people, and then laughing about it....thats a different story...


JDub

[SHAZAM]

Tom,

for the love of paintball...you really should take out the audio of this clip. it is still cool with out it

[raehl]

You don't see how a video of a marker firing 100 rounds in 5 seconds while the "victim" begs for it to stop can be used as ammunition to get paintball banned? Especially when the victim had the benefit of what amounted to body armor and apparently volunteered to participate?

Just picture 5-20 middle aged people on a committee or city council somewhere with no experience with paintball imagining a group of teenagers running around with that equipment, and then try and tell me how that video isn't destructive. You have to understand that the people who may end up viewing that viedo will *NOT* have the benefit of the context you have through your paintball experience.

Sometimes I am quite surprised by the inability of some people in the paintball community to comprehend the potential consequences of their actions.

- Chris

[Timmee]

A possible argument could be made by field owners, operators, league operators, etc, stating that under most circumstances, full auto is not allowed. However, I do see your point in this matter. Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy watching it, but I do recognize that your points are valid.

[AGD]

Chris,

I am not going to take it off because all the members of the paintball industry have never even seen a marker shoot this fast full auto. They have absoulutely no idea what it can do or the consequences.

Four years ago I warned the industry that the limit of gravity feed was going away and they needed to do something about it.

Three years ago all the major gun manufacturers agreed not to sell full auto guns by the end of that year. Guess what, they didn't EVER stop making them.

End of last year the biggest name in tourney guns stated that they would not remove full auto because it would be limiting in a time of recession. The fact that they had agreed to earlier did not make any difference.

This year the two highest volume manufacturers made their statements. One made an MP5 look alike that will go full auto with a kit. The other wrote a letter to what ended up being the National Assoc. of Opthamologists stating that there was no reason to ban full auto.

AGD has never marketed a full auto gun. We loose money and market share every day to our competitors because we remain true to our morals. Am I going to stick it in their face? You bet I am! Full auto has been here for a long time and if it takes a video like this for a wake up call, then so be it.

Tom Kaye

[SHAZAM]

our leader has spoken . . .

I will fight with you to death do us part, Fearless Lord.

[SHAZAM]

let all be warned . . .The borg comand just release a press statement


IT IS FUTILE TO RESIST. . .ASSIMILATION IS INEVITABLE ! ! !

[AGD]

I just uploaded higher quality vids to replace the originals.

AGD

[raehl]

Tom, there's a bigger picture, and it's this:

Those videos make it that much easier for no one to be able to sell any paintball markers at all. That goes way beyond having full auto markers or having markers that closely resemble real firearms. That is the President of a paintball equipment manufacturing company getting a kick out of using his product to light up some guy while he begs for mercy. Is that ACTUALLY what's going on? No, but no one about to vote on whether to allow the sale of paintball markers in their city or state is going to know that. I'm going to be sitting behind a table somewhere trying to explain that no one in the public has access to a marker like that and whichever government body it is is going to say - as you've just pointed out - "What keeps another company from selling a gun with those capabilities in the future?"

I appreciate taking the high ground and not selling full auto markers to the public. I don't see how that justifies participating in a setback elsewhere, especially just to spite other companies. Regardless, there is nothing about what you are trying to demonstrate that requires an actual person to be cussing up a storm on the receiving end.


- Chris

[billmi]

I'd like to start out by mentioning that Tom Kaye is someone I know, like, and respect on both a personal and professional level. My statements about this demo for the Mancow radio show don't mean I hate Tom, AGD, etc. That being said...


Originally posted by Jack_Dubious
Raehl,
I dont see how a radio publicity stunt, in a controlled enviroment with safety equipment and adults could be used as ammunition to ban all paintball.

Now a video of teenagers driving around and shooting unsuspecting people, and then laughing about it....thats a different story...
JDub


Let's see... Teenagers doing a drive by shown on the news with reporters saying they were committing a crime, and more often than not the perpetrators serving jail time makes it clear that what they are doing is not the sport of paintball.

Seems to me that's pretty easy to dismiss when brought up as a negative example of paintball. "Those people weren't playing paintball, they were committing assault, which is already illegal. It's really not different than attacking someone with a baseball bat, and infact one of the first cases of assault like that involved a baseball bat in addition to a paintgun. Fortunately they were caught and received jail time - we need more 'tough on crime' laws to protect those of us who use paintguns and baseball bats in the safe and proper way they were intended."

On the other side of the coin, when a respected paintball industry leader and product manufacturer is shown pelting someone and making them scream in paint and shredding their clothing, how do you answer to that?

"Well, he wasn't really hurt, I mean his clothing was shredded and he was screaming in pain while everyone laughed at him, but he had rubber under his shirt, and see look at this photo through the ripped up shirt, you can't see any welts, the skin is all yellow and red, so he's OK."

"What's that? No, we don't wear protective rubber when we play, but really, this isn't what paintball is like, it was just a demo."

"What? Well yes, he is a leader of the paintball industry, and that is the paintgun he makes and sells, but the ones he sells don't shoot as many balls per second, well at least not in full auto like that. You're not listening to me though, this isn't what paintball is like."

"But he wasn't really hurt, this was just a demo to get people excited about the game, even though this isn't what the game is like, this will make people want to come play, that's what this is about."


Chris is absolutely right, video like this could easily be used against paintball - because people who want to sway votes in a public forum don't care about being accurate or giving details - they care about getting people to vote their way, and if you can scare people, it's much easier to lead them to vote your way. Moreover many public officials don't care about laws they pass being right, wrong, or usefull, they are more interested in making their constuents think they have done things to protect them and make their lives better. If they can scare their voters into thinking something is dangerous and then ban it, that give them the opportunity to look like a hero and get reelected.

To tens of thousands of people, (whatever Mancow's audience is) who aren't familiar with paintball their introduction to the "sport" is new someone being pelted with paint at 20 bps and screaming in pain. WE know this demo isn't what the sport of paintball is, but they don't - this is how they were introduced.

Imagine, you're sitting on a city council seat somewhere, and you don't know jack about what paintball is. Some field is trying to get a zoning permit, or there is a law banning paintball on the table. The paintballers show you a nice carboard display like a 12th grade science project with samples of paintballs and pictures of players in bright colored jerseys, and bar graphs showing how safe it is. They say "well it does hurt a little to get hit, but it's not bad - this is a safe and fun family sport."

Then the opposition presents, and they show you a video clip of this guy screaming and curssing while his clothing gets shreded by a paintball gun. If you didn't know the truth about paintball, how would you feel after that demo.

Don't think it can happen? My local field is Spacecoast paintball in Titusville, FL. They ran into last minute zoning problems when some neighbors protested, and I was asked by the owners to come to their open house day when the neighbors and zoning committee members would come and look at the field and learn about paintball. The field has a buffer of over 250 feet of thick woods between any tapelines or staging areas and the nearest neighboring homes.

When that buffer distance was explained, and the range of paintguns explained, one irate woman whipped out a print-out of a Tippmann Flatline description from Paintballnation.com that said the Flatline could shoot over 100 yards with accuracy, and proceeded to rant about how her house was going to get covered in paint because the field owners were lying about paintgun range, etc. Even after shooting demos with the range marked off in feet, and people struggling to get the ball to go 100 feet, this woman was still dubious - because she had her info from the net showing that 300+ foot shots were possible.

Another resident was concerned that children attending the school across the street, or her children peeking over the fence of her backyard might see players dressed in camo walking through the woods and "need to go to therapy to cope with that trauma."

Footage like this is EXACTLY the kind of thing that will appear in public hearings about the sport.

Further I'm disturbed that in the photos Tom is wearing disassembled goggles. There are no goggles on the market today designed to protect the eye against paintball impact with their mask and ear protection removed. JJ Brookshire, a former AGD employee has expounded on this issue at great length, citing studies using human head forms with flexible skin and a hard synthetic skull underneath which show quite graphically that a paintball hitting the unprotected cheek will bounce off the cheekbone and go under the goggle frame with enough force to rupture a pig's eye (which has a nearly identical structure, size and internal pressure to a human's eye).

Sure, the manufacturers make the goggles with the mask and ear protection. Sure, the testing shows it's a necessary part of the goggle. Sure, the field operators and insurance companies require that it be there, but if a leader in the paintball industry that has put more time and effort into R&D than any other company in the sport says it's OK to take the goggles apart and make them less protective, then that must be safe, right?

I'm further amazed, that online so many players, scream and rant at similar stunts on the MTV show Jack#$@ yet, so many are cheering this stunt. Why the double standard?The SPPLAT Shatner big game will be awash with mainstream media. According to JJ Brookshire, they've had to reduce the maximum number of players to make room for the live remote trucks that CNN and other networks want to have on site. That means there will be a lot of interviews and demonstrations for the mainstream media.

Additionally, a lot of the people attending the event will be first time paintballers. Brookshire says many of the preregistered players are Star Trek fans who haven't played before. For hundreds there, this will be their first look at paintball.

I've been holding that weekend in my calendar open with hopes to attend. I'll talk more to JJ and Tom about how things will be run there, but honestly if this is how paintball will be shown to the public I think it will be a black eye for the sport, and something I don't want to be involved with.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[hitech]

Tom,

I know you respect the opinion of Bill Mills. You should consider what he has to say. If you want to use the video to show why paintball markers should NOT be allowed to shoot at 20bps full auto, then do so. If you truly believe it is dangerous, then INSIST that they do NOT allow it at Shatner Ball.

Respectivly,
Hitech

[BTAutoMag]

wow billmi you put shartly to shame.

[AGD]

At the Shatner Game 3000 players, hundreds with full auto same as show above, will be shooing Larry King in front of nationwide on field tv coverage, but that's ok.

Professional players who are deified in our sport have fist fights at every event. But that's ok.

A player can bunker a guy and shoot him three times in the back of the head and HE DIES! NO problems with that.

At LA Open two pro captains are arguing and shooting guns without any googles on and they return to play another game. Juat part of the show.

Most recently at VEGAS against insurance rules a player shoots at a spectator through the net. That is not likely to cause publicity issues I guess.

At World Cup last year a major manufacturer had his goggles on the field even though they had not been certified which was against insurance rules. Funny thing is that same manufacturer had another company's goggles removed from the field the field the year before for the same thing. No press coverage on that.

I would sugest that if fights in hockey and the WPF don't get those sports kicked out of high school this little radio stunt won't either. The way we are looking at it the controversy is just saving us advertising dollars.

AGD

[BTAutoMag]

so they all are going to be shooting larry king and only larry king?

[bob87]

so they all are going to be shooting larry king and only larry king? We get to shoot larry king that will be fun.:D

[manike]

Originally posted by AGD
At the Shatner Game 3000 players, hundreds with full auto same as show above, will be shooing Larry King in front of nationwide on field tv coverage, but that's ok.

Professional players who are deified in our sport have fist fights at every event. But that's ok.

A player can bunker a guy and shoot him three times in the back of the head and HE DIES! NO problems with that.

At LA Open two pro captains are arguing and shooting guns without any googles on and they return to play another game. Juat part of the show.

Most recently at VEGAS against insurance rules a player shoots at a spectator through the net. That is not likely to cause publicity issues I guess.

So you need to lower your self to their level? Shouldn't you as an industry leader try and stop such irresponsible actions in events you help to sponsor?

Do you see any 'evidence' of these acts on the net for anyone to see and use against the sport of paintball? Very little.

Do you see anyone trying to promote these events? Of course not.

and yet you think your irresponsible actions should be promoted and shown to everyone and made available for people to use against us?

You don't see the difference in harm that could come from your actions as compared to theirs? I should think with your position in the industry you would hold yourself to a higher level.

JJ has put a huge amount of work into promoting a charity event which will help the whole of paintball and you are using a stunt on the back of that which could have major bad consequences on our sport in order to promote your marker? If I were JJ I would be disgusted at what you were doing to this event.

I find it difficult to believe you actually thought that having someone screaming while being shot on FA for a radio audience could EVER help promote our sport.

What about all the new people listening on the radio who were thinking about playing or attending but now will not? You've given them an idea of paintball and a wrong invalid one but what do they know?

I think your actions Tom, were extremely irresponsible and that you should remove that video and pictures (too late?) rather than uploaded higher res versions. :rolleyes:

Dissapointed.

manike

p.s. Someone said that technology wasn't available to the general public... well you are wrong. It's an e-mag with a warp feed and halo. With the aftermarket board now available, allowing FA, anyone could have this capability if they wanted.

When JJ said FA would be allowed at the game I was concerned. I know what FA at such rates can do, even in responsible hands. Let alone irresponsible hands. After this I wouldn't even say Tom's hands were responsible enough for it. I hope JJ re thinks allowing FA. I don't want to play in an uncontrolled game where this could happen. A controlled game yes (and that's different) but not a big game with 'Joe Public' there...

[beam]

Tom,

To help me understand your motive a bit more...can you answer me this:

Did you develop that marker/technology that could go 20bps to make a point or to make money? Did you make that marker to cause others in the industry to pause and consider where bps is heading? Or, did you develop it along with the new Level 10 just to make money, thus basically saying "Screw it then, if they aren't gonna cap bps/fullauto then neither am I!"

I just want to know your motives. You brought up other issues that have popped up in the industry (fights, masks, etc) but then said that you view this controversy as a money saving tactic.

Is this about principles or money?

[Riotz]

Originally posted by thei3ug
Morning radio is ruined for me forever.

That's what you get for listening to the Howard Stern rip-off, Mancow.

:p

[raehl]

Originally posted by AGD
At the Shatner Game 3000 players, hundreds with full auto same as show above, will be shooing Larry King in front of nationwide on field tv coverage, but that's ok.

I wasn't under the impression this was part of the planned activities, and if it is, I'm going to rethink my attendence at the event and whether or not I promote it to college players.


Professional players who are deified in our sport have fist fights at every event. But that's ok.

This is definitely not ok. It is why I don't pay any attention to pro paintball, and why similar activity in the college league gets you banned for life.


A player can bunker a guy and shoot him three times in the back of the head and HE DIES! NO problems with that.

And when has this ever happened? Although again, it's NOT ok, and again, where I have control over it in the NCPA, would be penalized heavily.


At LA Open two pro captains are arguing and shooting guns without any googles on and they return to play another game. Juat part of the show.

I really wish people would stop using pro paintball as an example of anything other than what is fundamentally screwed up with the sport.


Most recently at VEGAS against insurance rules a player shoots at a spectator through the net. That is not likely to cause publicity issues I guess.

It caused publicity issues within paintball - what it is NOT likely to do, and what the rest of your examples of piss poor behavior on the part of our "pros" are not likely to do, is show up at a government hearing about whether or not to ban paintball equipment.


At World Cup last year a major manufacturer had his goggles on the field even though they had not been certified which was against insurance rules. Funny thing is that same manufacturer had another company's goggles removed from the field the field the year before for the same thing. No press coverage on that.

This is a separate argument - the independence of the paintball media from the paintball companies. Obviously, in many cases where paintball media is owned by, or heavily funded by, paintball companies, this independence is in many cases lacking. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand: Is having the Turd and Mancow videos where paintball opponents can get them going to screw us over royally in the future? And it absolutely is.


I would sugest that if fights in hockey and the WPF don't get those sports kicked out of high school this little radio stunt won't either. The way we are looking at it the controversy is just saving us advertising dollars.

All of your examples are referring to instances occuring within the confines of athletic events amongst participants. No one is worried about a fight on a hockey rink, because that fight is not going to spill over into their back yard. Many people have a fear of paintball equipment, albeit an irrational one, and that video plays on and reinforces that fear - because while two pros being dicks out in Vegas definitely isn't a good thing, it's being shot by paintball equipment that is going to get voters to want their legislators to act against paintball. You are missing the "That could happen to me!" factor. We know it can't happen to people, but people who see that video do not.

Tom, it was a mistake. Pointing out other areas of the sport that need improvement does not make this any less of a mistake. Please fix it before it shows up in Baltimore and they use it to justify passing their paintball ban, or some other paintball-ignorant person gets ahold of it and uses it as impetus to propose a ban in their area.

As a side note, if you really want to fix those other problems, stop spending your sponsor dollars supporting the events that allow them to occur.

- Chris

[raehl]

I doubt there is anyone who is more informed on paintball as a high school sport than I am since I have spent considerable effort promoting high school paintball. While your radio stunt may not be likely to get paintball kicked out of the one of 20-30 high schools where it is a club/sport right now, it is very likely, especially in the video form, to prevent paintball from ever becoming a sport in many high schools. I work with parents and administrators on a regular basis, both locally and nationally, and frankly, that video would scare them good. How is a parent supposed to know that what you just did to Turd isn't going to happen to their child when they're playing?

I certainly wouldn't want to be the first kid whose parents find and watch the copy of that video they downloaded onto the hard drive and forgot to delete.

The video does NOTHING positive, and stands to cause serious damage. There is nothing to be lost by locking it up and never letting it out again.

Thanks,
Chris

[BTAutoMag]

Originally posted by raehl
I certainly wouldn't want to be the first kid whose parents find and watch the copy of that video they downloaded onto the hard drive and forgot to delete.

The video does NOTHING positive, and stands to cause serious damage. There is nothing to be lost by locking it up and never letting it out again.

Thanks,
Chris
i still want the vidio in mpg format. i wanna see it!

[FatMan]

Um, I might wear out my AO welcome on this, but I have to agree with Bill and Chris. Tom, this wasn't a good move. I understand and agree with your position WRT full-auto, but this stunt is not the right way to prove it. I just don't think it fits with the overall character and image of you, AGD, AO, or paintball.

Plain and simple that's not what paintball is all about. And if you want to demonstrate technology you can do it in a different way. I would be all for a demonstration that shows that full auto is unsafe - but not on a living creature - padded or not. That simply smacks of the MTV show whose name I cannot say here lest the word police ban me.

Tom, we all respect you, your company, and your products - and I think we're all willing to forgive this one - still I think you ought to back down on this. The main reason is all the kids here on AO who idolize you. They are the ones who are going to defend this - I hope they won't emulate it. I don't think you want them going around thinking that was the right thing to do.

That's my say on it,

FatMan

[AGD]

Airgun Designs has always stood for safety in paintball. We have ALWAYS been against full auto. We REMAIN against full auto. The video represents WHY we are against full auto and brings it to the forefront.

Yes we ARE showing this video in the hopes that everyone in the industry gets upset about it and it causes a huge controversy. You are all participating right now in that plan. This video here is not the problem, the problem will come when the manufacturers of the full auto markers get their own videos on the evening news. When that happens I can guarantee you it will not show an actor on a radio station but some poor kid getting both eyes shot out.

A nine year old kid with a cane will destroy this industry much faster than Mancow ever could. The real problem is apparent in the posts on this thread, you don't do anything about it until its on TV.

You want me to take it down, call Tippman, Kingman, WDP, Indian Creek, Centerflag, Racegun and Bob Long and ask them when they are going to take full auto out of their programs.

As soon as they get the point I would be glad to take the vids down.

Tom Kaye

[manike]

Originally posted by AGD
Yes we ARE showing this video in the hopes that everyone in the industry gets upset about it and it causes a huge controversy.

So until then you are going to help cause controversy that could ultimately affect our whole sport?

Do you really need to do it by showing the world and the public? and risking our sport?

Wouldn't it be better behind closed doors to the ASTM and assembled manufacturers?

I don't like the way you are doing this and it doesn't come across to me as if you are just doing it to be against FA. It looks like you are looking for media attention. Of a bad sort

To coin someone elses words. I hope you are not shooting yourself (and our sport) in the foot.

manike

[manike]

Also don't you think you could have tried to prove your point with people wearing the PROPER safety equipment?

Your actions are irresponsible in that fact alone.

manike

[Chupas2]

Way to go Tom. Love the video. This is a good way to get some of the people that listen to Mancow to come out and play Shattner Ball in August. Although there is a few books writen on AO about this but think about who's listening to the station. Mancow has his followers and they love to hear Turd get hurt. They've been doing that since day one. He gave that to them and promoted AGD on top of it. Which is a good thing. People hear Turd getting shot to hell and hear they can come play in August with Mancow and Turd and get revenge on Tom and more people show up and it gets alot of media attention. Another good thing. In August Tom show the media his stuff (free advertising) and alot of people see it and want to buy a marker that can shoot fast. He makes more lowers price and everyones happy.:D I think Tom's doing everything to promote this game and his product. Just remeber you wanted marketing, he's giving it to you.



Wow. I feel like Shartley and Reahl writing this much. Sorry

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
At the Shatner Game 3000 players, hundreds with full auto same as show above, will be shooing Larry King in front of nationwide on field tv coverage, but that's ok.


No, it is not. And now that I have seen what 20bps full auto is, I am against it. YOU should be also. I would think that you have enough influnce to have that changed. Do you? Will you?

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD

Yes we ARE showing this video in the hopes that everyone in the industry gets upset about it and it causes a huge controversy.The real problem is apparent in the posts on this thread, you don't do anything about it until its on TV.


That is true. It is true not just for the paintball industry, but true in general. People don't take action until it is a crisis. However, YOU can DO something now. Insist that they not allow full auto at Shatner Ball.

[shartley]

Tom -
That sounds GREAT! And I agree with the argument.

However, I don’t think that was the purpose of the actual stunt…. Was it? ;) Good afterthought and recovery, but I honestly don’t think that the purpose of that video and radio stunt was to prove how dangerous full auto is…. Instead it was a promo for the event and to make “funny” listening for ManCow’s radio show with no thought about how it would affect the Paintball Community as a whole…. That is until AFTER. Otherwise there would not have been such a “festive” atmosphere.. it would have been done in a controlled environment with much more protection, and done so in seriousness.

Now, it looks more like a cover-up of intentions, and not some noble deed. Come on Tom, we ALL mess up now and again…. This was not done to prove how dangerous full auto was.. it was done to show how “cool” it was…… and it really isn’t that cool after all.

Again, we all care about images… including yours.

And as for this…

I think Tom's doing everything to promote this game and his product. Just remeber you wanted marketing, he's giving it to you.
This is NOT what people wanted. Responsible marketing is one thing… this stunt is another. For a sport that is so “bashed” by public perception, any press is NOT good press… GOOD PRESS is good press. This is not good press… and Tom just as much admitted it.

This issue can not be waffled to fit an arguing point.. it was not the wisest thing to do. And it can cause more harm than good. And Paintball does not need to be “cured” by a “scorched earth” campaign. Noone wins that way when the sport is on a fine edge anyway.

[manike]

Agreed with Shartley. Well Put.

manike

[beam]

People will change only when the cost of staying the same is higher than changing.

I think Tom is raising the cost of staying the same.

[hitech]

BTW, the reason we are talking about it here is because we can get someone in a position to actually DO something to listen. I don't know where else I can do that.

[AGD]

If I cave on this I feel that the next thing that will be written will be this:

AGD Rest In Peace
The last gun manufacturer to go full auto,
once an industry leader but no more,
lack of marketing was his downfall.


Shartley, Of course I'm going to spin this.

Anyone emailed Tippman yet? Or do you just pick on me because I'm here?

AGD

[FatMan]

You have good points - all of those things you mention are wrong - and they SHOULD be pointed out, talked about, and prevented in the future.

The Palestinans have a good point that bears discussion too.

I don't agree with either of your methods.

I know you are doing this for the right reasons, but I can't just look at this as a means to an end. Since part of the reason is to stir US into discussion I cannot continue to participate without becomming part of the event myself.

Tom, I'm disappointed you chose this approach. I don't think you thought it through as well as you might have. I hope in the end it helps with our cause and does not become a burden we all must bear. That's all I can say.

I'm out of here.

Further Deponent Sayeth Not.

FatMan

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
Professional players who... But that's ok.

I questioned many of the actions of the pro players while at the AO "donut orgy" in LA. Most (if not everyone) present (including Bill Mills) commented on how it needs to, has to, change. I know these comments were not directed at me, but remember, not everyone thinks it's okay. There just doesn't seem to be anything "I" can do about it. Except ask the questions of those who might be able to.

[manike]

It takes a big man to admit when they are wrong or have made a mistake.

You do not have to cave in on FA. It's not allowed or even legal in most places. People can't use it in tournaments or at most fields or in many countries. Why should you make an FA marker? I don't think it helps to sell guns.

Having FA is nothing to do with leading the market. I don't know anyone who has bought a gun just because it was FA.

You don't have to market by negatively showing what everyone else is doing. Market by being positive about what you can do (and what you won't do).

manike

[bunkerhugger]

The video tape is no more detrimental than the felonious acts we've seen committed by criminals with paintguns and video cameras. Anyone remember the old paintguns that shot .357 balls and used pistol primers as a propellant? Watch a video of them in action. Fire spitting out the barrel, full auto to rival a mac10, welts the size of chocolate chip cookies. A video of them in action will be discounted the same way this one is. Both are extreme and neither are realistic and reasonable people know this.

Unreasonable people will find a way to poo poo paintball no matter what. They will show pictures of Tippman's MP5 clone, they will find the guns which look even scarier, they will show pictures of 2E, and read transcripts of Lasoya's behavior. This video will do exactly what it was supposed to do, promote Mancow's face off with Tom Kaye and it will go no further than that. At least in the minds of reasonable people it will go no further.

[manike]

Since when were 'Joe Public' and politicians reasonable? lMAO

As you pointed out all those other acts were committed by criminals... This was conducted by someone in the industry.

manike

[bunkerhugger]

As a member of the public I find myself reasonable and prefer to consider my friends and neighbors to be also. I'm also aware that I am but one decision from being a criminal or a politician.

Every example I gave for unreasonable people to use to poo poo paintball was industry related also. Those guns are made by the industry and those players play for industry teams.

[Army]

I wanted to stay out of this, and this will be my ONLY reply on the subject:

When the "Industry" elected to limit rates to 13bps, we all knew that the RT was more than capable of 26bps, and we giggled behind our closed doors about it.

When FA became outlawed in tourneys to make it more "fair" for lower end guns, we giggled because our Mags were darn near FA anyway.

When WGP, WDP, Tippman, Kingman, Nova, Shocker, Bob Long, Smart Parts etc. all came out with mods or guns that went all the way to 16bps, and advertised that fact, Mag owners giggled that we could easily surpass that with no shootdown.

When Tom and others posted clips showing full auto at 13, 16, 18bps done in backyards, outside shops, at local fields, and even at a tourney, 99.9% of us said "OH MY GOSH, I GOTTA GET ME ONE OF THOSE, TOM WHERE DO I BUY ONE, THAT IS JUST AWESOME, WOW, NEATO, WOO-WOO"! And reffered others to the film clips over and over and over. We even made sure those other BBs and forums would see them, by posting the link at nearly every Pball site on the net.

We are ALWAYS bragging about "my" gun's rate of fire ability; "Cockers suck because I can shoot faster, Angels suck because I can shoot faster, Spyders.......suck".

But now, in an obviously controlled environment, indoors with sheeting and protective gear (Tom wasn't being shot at, but was wearing protection anyway), and shooting a guy whos' only job is to be a fall guy, a patsy, for Mancow. That he is doing it at a full auto 20bps with no chops or breaks would have, AT ANY OTHER TIME, been held aloft as AGDs crowning achievement in gun technology, and would have recieved all the requesite OOOHHs and AAAHHHHs that have accompanied the other FA videos.

Hypocrisy is running rampant here, but maybe that is just my way of observing things.

'nuff said. Dave

[shartley]

Films showing full auto at a fixed target are totally different than full auto at a person. And I am surprized that the comparison would be made.... there is no hypocrisy happening.

Simply put, they are two different issues.. one is demonstrating the capability to shoot at a high rate of fire, the OTHER is showing (in a festive atmosphere) how much damage can be done when shot at a person. Sure he was the patsy.. but so are the guys who did stuff on JackA$$ and AO also posted their dislike of it.

Again... there is no hypocrisy going on. But we CAN hear the sound of masterful tap dancing. ;) But many of us like a good jig… :D:D:D:D

And I now sit back and let the posts continue... ;)

[raehl]

There is no hypocracy.

The rate of fire is irrelevant.

This is a video of a person wearing armor being shot by a paintball marker while cursing/begging for it to stop accompanied by pictures of his shirt being shot full of holes and the damage done THROUGH the armor.

You are looking at this logically, and the people who are going to use this against us are not. The response from laypersons who view this is not going to be "Oh, this was done in a controlled environment with safety equipment and an armor plate", the response is going to be "What would happen if this was done in an uncontrolled environment?"


I really wish you guys would listen to the experts on this issue - those of us in paintball who have worked on legislative efforts in the past *ALL* agree that this video is extremely damaging.

- Chris

[iisp0tii]

i believe army is right!

all hail the borg general TOM KAYE!!!!!!!!!

[Muzikman]

I think some of the people that support this do not realize that you do not have to shoot a human (protective gear or not) at 5 feet to prove your gun can shoot 20BPS. If Tom was going with the “look how unsafe full auto at 20bps is”, just hang a piece of cloth on a wall and shoot it, people would get the idea when the balls ripped holes in it.

I think this is a case of bad publicity is good for one entity but maybe not good for the cause.

Or

High intelligence with total lack of common sense.

I agree with everything Shartley, Bill, etc… has said.

[Jenadin]

"I really wish you guys would listen to the experts on this issue - those of us in paintball who have worked on legislative efforts in the past *ALL* agree that this video is extremely damaging."

Funny, my Mom never told me not to watch pro wrestling because she thinks I'll jump on my little brothers back. However, pro wrestling is still much, much larger than the "experts" have made paintball using a conservative approach.
Awaiting your orders Captain!

[Scooter/Cootie]

Here Here Army, well put.

Raehl, get off your soapbox and let someone else take a turn. Your opinion is now well known, accepted by some and not accepted by others. I don't mind the fact the individuals will respond to a post but you keep trying to hit the nail on the head, and IMO, have taken the display out of context and have missed badly.

The purpose of this video, and it being created as part of a "radio" broadcast, does not negitively effect our beloved sport. Correct me if I'm wrong but I assume that you have never listened to Mancow's Morning Madhouse? Well, I have and let this 'expert' tell you something. This show's sole purpose is to do the 'extreme', the unexpected, the unbelieveable. To be a "Madhouse". Shooting Turd, who had proper saftey equipment in addition to an added piece of saftey in the rubber mat, only enforces Mancows theatrics. Thus drawing his audience closer to the reason they turn in to listen in the first place, to listen to an entertaining radio show. By taking this video out of context (and yes, you have) you have instigated this whole needless debate.

<b>I really wish you guys would listen to the experts on this issue - those of us in paintball who have worked on legislative efforts in the past *ALL* agree that this video is extremely damaging. </b>

And you call yourself an expert? I'd love to see your credentials then. Actively marketing paintball to highschools is a great promotion to paintball as a sport and I applaud you for your efforts and being engaged in "legislative efforts" may give you experience but if these are your only credentials, Im sorry, but you are sorely lacking in the 'expert' department.

While I am no marketing expert, I have to agree that this does offer a certain 'shock' value to paintball. You have to keep in mind the audience that Mancow's show caters to. 14 - 25 year olds. Any radio or TV exec will tell you that this is the most covented age group that they can possibly attract. Its a group made up of individuals who have a lot of money and little responsibility (in comparison to 40 & 50 year olds). Thus, they are more likely to be spontanious and rush out to purchase a "toy" that they just heard about and thought was "cool". If the reason to do this stunt was only to allow people of the 14 - 25 age bracket, who have never heard of paintball before, to think that, "Wow! I've never heard of paintball but if a gun can shoot 20bps and rip up Turd, it must be cool! I've got to get me an E-Mag!" then my friend this stunt has done its purpose well. I congradulate both Tom and Mancow's Morning Madhouse in their ingenious way to advertise our sport to the average "Joe Schmoe".

The reason that all of you are concerned, namely you Raehl, Shartly, Manike, and Bill Mills, is that this stunt can show paintball "at its worst" and can be taken in the wrong way and used against us in the future. But, is this not true in any other sport? What about football? Or Manike, what about Soccer (football to you)? Or even a lesser known sport like Cricket or LaCrosse? There is an abundance of examples of stunts that are taken from other sports that can be turned around and used against them. To show others that "you shouldn't play that sport. See what they're doing? Its terriable! I'll never play that!". This is but one small stunt that "may" be taken by someone who wants to bend and twist it to their will, and you are getting your knickers in a bunch.

I saw here here to Army, Mancow, and most importantly Tom for doing what they believe is right. If you dont agree with it, too damn bad. Your opinions is now well known, accepted by some and not accepted by others.

Thats my 10.02, take it as you wish.

[shartley]

Now I wonder why some can not make a point without saying things like “If you dont agree with it, too damn bad.”. That really makes the points more valid now, doesn’t it? ;) It also makes people really want to discuss it… which is what Tom openly stated he WANTED… go read Tom’s other post specifically stating so. ;)

Tom wanted a discussion, and you can not have a discussion with only a single post of your opinions, you need banter back and forth. So to claim that some are trying to keep hitting the nail on the head is a bit off base.

And no offense is intended, but a member of an AGD sponsored team would be expected to back up their sponsor… would they not? Or at a minimum if they didn’t agree with actions taken not to post anything. Posting opinions would be a catch 22 in the credibility department, there is simply too much of a conflict of interest.

As for other sports… I have already commented on that issue… don’t try to justify things by pointing out OTHER things. That is akin to slight of hand and misdirection… a trick to avoid the real issue. We are talking about THIS issue, not issues that involve other sports…. As has been stated before about other things (by prominent members here on AO), if you want to talk about other things/sports/interests, there are forums online dedicated to those issues and topics. This forum is about paintball. And the issue at hand involves paintball, nothing else.

Also, I would advise not burning any bridges we may need to cross later. People need to keep focus of the ISSUE, and not make personal attacks. You can disagree with what people think without insulting them, or trying to knock them down…… if we want that, I can start knocking as well.. and I am sure people don’t want that….

Focus please…. I have stayed out of this for the most part out of courtesy, let me continue to do so please. Tom asked for discussion on the issue, so discuss it, not what people may think of other people…

[AGD]

So far today I have been on the phone with JJ, Jessica Sparks and Forest Brown. Things are getting interesting.

AGD

[bunkerhugger]

Shartley did you just say no offense was intended then imply that someone would impugn their integrity by blindly following the sponsor of their team?

[shartley]

Shartley did you just say no offense was intended then imply that someone would impugn their integrity by blindly following the sponsor of their team?
No, I just stated what may be “perceived”. And the “no comment” issue is well known in most other industries where Sponsored people are involved. There is simply too much of a conflict of interest to make comments when you are a “paid” person…. It is also something that comes with being Sponsored.

This brings to mind another issue, and one of Paintball Teams not fully understanding what being Sponsored really means and all the responsibilities and drawbacks it can create. This would be one such drawback.

THAT is what I was implying, nothing more, nothing less…. There are more important issues here than trying to parse my words to make even MORE issues to distract readers from the real issue at hand. ;)

[pumpamatic]

Ok, so I just watched Turd and Johnny Knoxville get shot up. Difference? Turd had a mask and armor. Turd was shown without any welts. Johnny was shown with about 20 welts. Now, why haven't I heard anything on these boards about how Jackass is ruining our sport of paintball. Honestly, if Tom wants to gain some publicity, let him. If Jackass wants to gain some publicity, let them. We'll just wait and see if anyone wishes to attack paintball on these. How are we supposed to get the many idiotic paintball videos off of networks like Kazaa/Morpheus?

[shartley]

Now, why haven't I heard anything on these boards about how Jackass is ruining our sport of paintball.
Actually, there were LOTS of posts about how bad JackA$$ was for Paintball. It was not an out of the way issue, but one that got lots of attention here on AO.


Honestly, if Tom wants to gain some publicity, let him.
Okay, fair enough…. no matter how it may affect paintball or set it back if the wrong people were to get a hold of it.


If Jackass wants to gain some publicity, let them.
And you honestly think they gave one hoot about paintball as a sport or industry? THAT is the difference between Tom and Johnny… Tom is considered an industry leader, or important member at a minimum…. Johnny is NOT. And as such, he should be held to higher standards than some punk kids out for ONLY ratings for their show.


We'll just wait and see if anyone wishes to attack paintball on these. How are we supposed to get the many idiotic paintball videos off of networks like Kazaa/Morpheus?
Oh, good thing to do… just sit around and wait to see if anyone uses those video’s against the industry. That really does not make good sense.

And we are not talking about some idiotic paintball video you can get off of Kazaa/Morpheus made by some kid that noone knows about. Those can EASILY be brushed aside. How easy do you think it will be to brush aside a video made by one of the most well known Paintball Marker manufacturers? Good question, and one I for one would not want to find out.

[AGD]

i have caved...

the best point made is that this video could be used by someone to show it out of context against the sport

I have re-edited it to insure that if shown it can be easily explained

new vid is up now

[shartley]

Good job Tom. But you did not cave in…. you did the responsible thing. And the video is STILL just as funny, but defuses any misuse of it. Again, good job. :)

Oh.. and great discussion folks.

[RoadDawg]

Link to one of the many Jackass threads: Jackass thread (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23070&highlight=Jackass)

[Hexis]

I like the new version of the video a lot more. It shows Turd being very impressed and not hurt at the end. Yub Yub!

[Butterfingers]

As a supplier/manufacturer of the only publicly available modification to turn an e-mag full auto, we like all the publicity we can get.

However, there is good publicity and there is bad publicity. The more I watch these videos the more and more I think that they are a mistake. At least the first one is with a human target.

The only advantage of "stunts" is free public exposure, however this exposure is not what we want.

It is bad because:

1) The first rule in marketing is to know and TARGET your audience.

The majority of people that hear this stunt do not play paintball. They will develop misconceptions about the sport this hurts EVERYBODY including yourself.

A very small percentage of people in the states listen to mancow. I didnt even know who he was until it was posted here. It is only avilable in a few states. In addition even fewer people who listen to mancow play paintball.

What is happening is the stunt is turning ALOT of people off to the sport and impressing VERY FEW.

You have missed the target and shot yourself in the foot.

2) Stunts often create controversy as evidenced by some of these replies. Controversy is like a keg of black powwder in the hot sun. Its unpredictable and may very well end up blowing up in your face.

As others have said there are other ways to demo a product that are much more effective.

Don and I don't have that much money, but we do our best to market our e-magnum conversion.

We will soon release videos of your wonderful e-mag shooting 20 bps FA drawing pretty pictures on inanimate objects with streams of paint. I have sucessfully drawn an outline of a rose with green paint and filled in the head of the flower with orange paint. Given it was the ugliest flower you will ever see but, it is very difficult to develop an arguement against this activity against paintball. Yet it sucessfully shows the capability of the gun.

I have done demos at 20 bps where every shot hit a jug in the middle of the range demonstrating the speed and accuracy of your product. In this case it was at a paintball field and we know 100% of the people there play paintball and we are pretty sure at least 99% of the people there were impressed. VERY efficent marketing. Given the target analogy we hit the bullseye with this group.

I hope I don't regret saying this but... here goes... AGD's marketing "sucks" because there is very little investment in it. Marketing is a "marketable" asset and alot of people know the advantage of it.

Simply put you pay for what you get. You put little money into marketing you get crappy marketing. You spend alot and do it RIGHT you get a return 10 times more valuable than what you put in.

If marketing is done right the return is tremendous. Look at WGP. The most expensive variants of this gun is approximately 2 times slower than the e-mag and only has ONE mode of fire. Yet they are selling off the shelf.

Proof positive of effective marketing and business technique.

Tom, I am extemely loyal to your company and know you hold strong moral convictions, but perhaps you should take this "marketing" in a diffrent direction.

When I said you should prove you have the fastest gun in the west this was not what I had in mind.

I have mentioned what I belive to be effective marketing techniques in many of my previous postings. Please tom, consider these for the love of AGD.

[RoadDawg]

Tom I'm proud to say that I'm at ease with the new stuff added. This is a serious issue and I'm glad to see you were able to mend the wrong doing.

Nick
Proud mag holder

[raehl]

I havn't seen the new video yet, but thanks Tom.

Scooter: Your "other sports" analogy makes no sense. The accurate analogy would be comparing this video to a video of the President of Rawlings beating Turd over the head with a baseball bat while he curses and begs for mercy, but saying it's ok because Turd was wearing a helmet and didn't get any bruises or bumps.

It's additionally invalid because other sports don't suffer the disadvantage of being new and placed under the constant scrutiny that ours is.


- Chris

[hitech]

Originally posted by shartley
Good job Tom. But you did not cave in?. you did the responsible thing. And the video is STILL just as funny, but defuses any misuse of it... Again, good job.

I agree! :D

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
Anyone emailed Tippman yet? Or do you just pick on me because I'm here?

I know this responce it a little late, but...

Email tippman, no, don't know how. I also don't know what Tippman has in the way of a full auto marker (sorry, I've been out of touch).

"Pick on" you because you're here. You betcha! This is the only place I know of that I (and everyone else) can get those who are in a position to make things happen in the paintball industry to actually listen. The other place for me was the LA donut orgy, but then that was because of AO also. :D

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
So far today I have been on the phone with JJ, Jessica Sparks and Forest Brown. Things are getting interesting.

So, is full auto NOT going to be allowed at "Shatner Ball"?

[billmi]

Originally posted by hitech


So, is full auto NOT going to be allowed at "Shatner Ball"?

I've been told by both JJ Brookshire (producer of the event) and Forest Brown (head honcho at Challenge Park Xtreme) that it will not be allowed.

The reasoning given by Forest is that ASTM is on the verge of finalizing (all voting members in agreement) a standard which allows only semi auto and pump action paintguns.

In a side note about the ASTM, it is an agency with absolutely no power. It exists only to publish standards, it can not force anyone to adhere to those standards. Thus the finalization of this standard will not force AGD or any manufacturers Tom mentioned his concerns with to not make full autos.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Load SM5]

Not to be too picky, but you spelled "demonstration" wrong.

It looks bad for an industry leader to be misspelling things.;)

[spazzed]

I've got a question about the updated video... At the beginning, it says "Illegal Marker". Why? What's illegal? I know e-mags aren't full auto, is that one being full-auto make it illegal? I'm confused, my poor little college brain is too full for such deep though!

[raehl]

While I generally like the modifications to the videos, I would also prefer "illegal" be replaced with another word. "Illegal" just gives people ideas - Who makes it illegal? What's illegal about it that we should write a law about to make sure it's illegal here too? That kind of thing.

Maybe something like "non-retail" or some such. I'm sure someone on the boards here has a good suggestion (as one is not coming to me at the moment.)

Thanks,
Chris

[raehl]

Standards have power when you give them power. To take on my full-time job, a PCI standard doesn't have any power to make people design PCI compliant devices, but if your device does not meet the standard, then it won't work.

Similarly, the ASTM standard doesn't force anyone to stop the manufacturing of non-standard equipment, but if I say that equipment that does not meet the standard isn't allowed at NCPA events (and I will, and I would expect the Board to support that decision), and insurers say they will not cover injuries caused by equipment that does not meet the standards, and we fight paintball legislation by conceding a ban against the sale of non-ASTM conforming paintball guns, then the standard has force, because no one will be making non-standard equipment because no one will have any place to buy or use it.


It is also my understanding that there will be no FA permitted at shatnerball.


- Chris

[hitech]

Originally posted by billmi
I've been told by both JJ Brookshire (producer of the event) and Forest Brown (head honcho at Challenge Park Xtreme) that it will not be allowed. The reasoning given by...

Thanks Bill. I have to admit that I was shocked at what 20bps full auto can do.

[billmi]

Originally posted by hitech


Thanks Bill. I have to admit that I was shocked at what 20bps full auto can do.

Even when there were plans for full auto at the event, CPX was going to limit it to 10 bps maxiumum, fired in bursts of no more than 2 seconds duration, and players pulled off the field if they overshot anyone - be that with pump, semi, or full auto.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Ov3rmind]

Well, I've just been reading this thread for a while, and I've decided to answer.

First off, Tom, I've always respected you in the paintball community. You actually take the time to listen to your fellow paintballers and see what they wan't in a product. When I saw the first version of the movie, I was a little disappointed that you had done this over the radio. I've always been big on paintball's publicity, so this made me mad to say the least. However, I'm glad you edited the movie to clarify it to the general public, and I hope you have not lost too much respect on these boards. Just remember to think about things like this before they become public. At this point and time, paintball is a target for restrictions and bans in many places in the USA and other countries. So before we become really mainstream, paintball as a community has to take special care to watch it's actions, and stop making making excuses for stupid mistakes. I'm glad you changed the video though, because I know you care about this sport too.

On the issue of banning FA. Personally, I'm very much against it. There's not really any places to use it on a legal feild, and all it does is give immature kids the chance to light people and public property up. I think the industry needs to take a closer and more serious look into this issue, because I don't see any positive use for FA.

[izecold7]

I could be wrong but isn't all this mostly used as a tool so AGD won't fall behind in Marketing. Well why don't you instead of show the great power of full-auto E-mag. Show the power of the semi-auto Automag RT. After all there will be alot of tourny players there and they are not allowed full-auto, but a fast semi like the RT would catch their eyes. Also one of the greatest thing about the Automags were the ability to be customized, so how about selling some more accesories for them. Heres an example of WGP's marketing, about 2 or more difforent ads in APG a month. One with the gun stock and one with the same gun loaded with who knows what. AGD not as many ads and the RT on a plain background and it says what it is capable of, but dosent screem if I have this i'm a pro or at least look like one. Take the RT put some powder coated bodies, some annodized bodies, a selection of double triggers, a well-known barrel, shorten the foregrip rail, colored everthing or just a chrome it up. Who needs full auto if most tourneys require semi. Also it would not be fun to play against someone with 20bps full-auto. And i'm not even metioning the semi power of the E-mag. Let the world know the semi-auto power of all the mags.

P.S. Isn't it better to get shot by a skilled player using a pump, than a rich kid using a Full-auto.

[Rooster]

A common occurance around here in the morning zoo show to invite the local paintball shop owner to come and shoot the stunt guy while he's doing varrious things. Now you can stamp your feet, complain, what ever you want, but publicity = sales, even bad publicity. This guy gets extra sales after every stunt becuase of the free plugs he gets after the bit.

And if ten years old Bobby's mommy doesn't want him getting a paintball gun, great! I wouldn't let my ten year old little brother play with me or my team because I have concerns for his safety. Its the people that do get gun who are inexperienced and that end up getting hurt cuasing problems for paintball. Its the kid that convinces his scared mother to get him a gun that im worried about, becuase he will get hurt. That is the nature of the game. And when he does get hurt, scared mom becomes overprotective mom.

Paintball is not a sport for everyone. Blood gets drawn, people get hurt. I'm not going to pull any punches when im playing to satisfy some ten year old's mother, and i sure don't expect people promoting the things i use to do so either.

The prime demographic for AGD listens to Mancow. Thats the same demographic that drops thousands of doallrs on a glorified toy. If that demographic finds the promotion funny or interesting, then that is all that matters, and I'd just assume ten year old Bobby didn't have a FA emag anyways.

[spazzed]

I whole-heartedly agree w/ ya rooster. Couldn't have said it any better myself. Bravo!

[vantrepes]

IMO, the clip should be removed.

It was a stunt, we know that. The guy didn't get hurt, we know that. But do you think the people that want to get rid of paintball are going to show the full clip? Don't hold your breath, you don't look good in blue.

If this is ever used to prove how "bad" paintball is, the only thing they will use is a couple of seconds where he is being drilled. Nothing before it, and sure as hell, not the shot of how his gut looked after it. They might use a nice still shot of the shirt torn the shreds, but that's about it.

A local radio show did the same type of thing at a local field, and it turned out almost as bad. They wanted crank the gun up "as high as it will go, I want it to hurt when it hits him". Even shooting normal speeds, the guy screemed like a wounded cat, and made a huge show of what we deal with every time we play.

Unless you can control the end result, I wouldn't trust a radio show to make our sport look good. All they want is something to boost their ratings.

[tsc]

It may have been good in the short term for advertising, but in the long term for the veiw of the sport it was stupid. Radio audiences aren't going to get the full story. They're going to hear screaming and cussing, and assume that it's not a gimmick.

(pssttt..Hi vant! this is TSC :) )

[Shaft]

Originally posted by vantrepes
IMO, the clip should be removed.


Hey, what's up Van. Welcome aboard. Your website rules. The little I do know about Autocockers is from your site.

[Rooster]

While I'm in a ranting mood, im going to start into my next one. I'm am sick and tired of the goggle nazis complaining everytime they see someone playing paintball without eye protection. Now if its minors playing, they have a right to be concerned. But i'm an adult. If I want to sit here and take a spoon, jamb it into my eye, and pop my eye out, i can do that. If I want to ride a motocycle without a helmet, in ohio, i can do that. If i want to play paintball withour eye protection, i can do that. Its my life, my eyes, and my decision. I'm an adult, i get to make that call. If you want to compalin about setting a bad example, then i guess you better ban alchohol and cigerettes as well, becuase adult using those sets a bad example as well. Adults set bad exaples all the time, and im sure not going to be somebodies role-model. So you goggle nazis can be secure in the knowledge that you will never have to worry about getting your eye shot out. Leave everyone else above the age of 18 alone, its none of your business.

[raehl]

Let me rant about people who think that because they're adults they can do whatever they want without any regard to the long term consequences of their actions that affect everyone else.

Sure, can you go play without goggles and get your eye shot out if you want to? Yes. When the story hits your local paper that someone lost an eye while playing paintball, is that going to make it more difficult for fields in the area to stay open/have events, for kids to get their parents to let them play, for schools to have paintball clubs? Absolutely. It doesn't matter that you were being a dumbass when you lost your eye, people are just going to read that someone lost an eye playing paintball, and assume that if you could do it, they or their children could as well.

Honestly, sometimes I think I should just shut up and let one of these paintball ban laws pass just so dumbasses like you understand that your ability to play exists about >< that far from being taken away from you, because I am frankly sick of having to clean up the messes you "I can do whatever I want" people create while I'm trying preserve your right to continue to make more messes for people like me to clean up. Your stupidity regularly threatens my ability to play, and that pisses me off.

You don't get rights alone, they come with responsibilities. Unfortunately, being an adult doesn't necessarily make you an intelligent adult. But seeing as paintball players do represent pretty much every facet of the population, I guess it isn't realistic to expect the dumbasses of the population to not be included.


As for full auto, I think it's cool. I don't think it's cool enough to justify having it. I'm not going to get into the reasoning here because I don't want to give anyone any ideas, but manufacturing devices that can fire projectiles in fully automatic mode is a VERY dangerous thing, and something we should stop doing.


- Chris

[manike]

Chris I agree with you completely.

I don't care if some 'adult idiot' wants to wear dangerous goggles or none at all and gets shot in the eye, it's a stupid choice they are free to make if they keep such actions to themselves. I believe in Darwinism, BUT I do care if that situation gets used against our sport or becomes part of a demographic which makes paintball look unsafe.

I also care if minors see images or such pictures and thus think it's safe to do the same without realising that the 'adult' :rolleyes: was being an idiot. I'm very dissapointed that Tom did it because there are a lot of minors here who idealise him and thus may be tempted to follow him. Why did so many of them complain about the oddysey videos with no proper safety equipement but then think it ok in this situation? Maybe because it's one of their idols?

Rooster, be an idiot, but don't let anyone who can be lead astray see you, don't let yourself become a demographic to be used against our sport, and don't whinge, whine, complain or go to hospital if you get shot in the eye. It was after all 'your choice'. And if your stupid choice ever impacts on the sport I care so much about, you'd better believe I'm going to let you know you are a dumbass.

manike

[Rooster]

I got news for you partner, everything is >< this close to getting banned. People want to ban football and boxing, people want to ban motorcycle riding, people want to ban gun ownership. There is always someone with a stick up their butt about something. I'm not going to live my life trying to stay in their good graces.

Whoever is trying to divine these tactics to keep paintball in the publics good graces is an idiot. Your best friend should be the NRA. They represent the one sport that has constitutional protection, and they have enough throw to control the election of officials in many districts.

And if someone gets a paintball ban pushed through, it gets a big whoopde-do from me. I'll play paintball on my land whenever i please. The fact is the very nature of the game involves people getting hurt. People will continue to get hurt. And until the ignorant parents of ignorant children stop buying them paintball guns and turning them lose, their ignorant parents are going to be pushing for ingorant laws to cover up their own ignorance. Ranting and raving about google use isn't going to change that. It isn't going to stop anti-paintball zealots. And no matter how many colors and nifty names you give it, paintball is a war game, and anti-violence people will hate it, just like they hate boxing.

These anti-violence people want publicitiy, they want people to listen to them, and you are kind enough to oblige them. I say thay can go straight to downstairs.

The only person that threatens your right to play, is you. I'm not going to be stopped by unconstitutional laws, especially when I'm playing on my own property. And as far as responsibility, if i drink till im nearly blind and jump behind the wheel of a car, thats a big problem. If i want to drink myself blind and not hurt anyone else by driving, i can do that. Someone else might feel full face protection is over-rated, and play with saftey glasses. As long as its themselves they are putting in danger, and not others, then you have no right to say whats responsible and whats not. Just like I can drink myself blind and as long as i don't drive, the only person in danger, is myself.

You would have been great friends with the temperance ladies, trying to dictate to others how they should live, and treat their own bodies.

[raehl]

I really hope you're never in the position to find out how wrong you really are.

If paintball gets banned, it won't matter if you plan on abiding by the laws or not - you won't have any markers or paint to buy to play, or if you do, it'll be so incredibly expensive it won't be worth it. Although, for example, if the people in Baltimore have their way, you'll be not abiding by the laws from the inside of a jail cell.

If you don't want to be responsible, fine, but don't try and act like there's any reason for it beyond your own selfishness.

- Chris

[shartley]

Let me just say I agree with Chris and Manike. I read Roosers comments and just had to let them pass hoping someone else would pick up the banner, and they did… thank you.

As for full auto… I agree it is problematic. It however must be kept in mind that what really makes it problematic is not the fact that it is full auto, but the RATE at which it is full auto. If a marker is only capable of cycling at 9BPS, it is only capable of going “full auto” at 9BPS. And we know that it is quite easy to reach those rates in semi mode. Thus I don’t think there would be a big problem with “full auto”.

With that said, it is the cycling rate that really makes full auto a problem at this time. This was really never a problem before the loading devices obtainable by the general public could actually allow loading of the balls fast enough to keep up with the cycling rates of the most common markers. Now they can!

This would actually make the issue of full auto one that is just as much a problem of those making loading devices as those making the markers. This would mirror the automobile industry where we KNOW that cars can go faster than posted speed limits, and can often times go faster than most automobile owners “think” they can. Power is a wonderful thing to have on tap, but using it irresponsibly is not necessarily the problem, or fault, of the automobile manufacturer.

What I am trying to say is that the issue of full auto does not rest entirely on the marker manufacturers. The ability to cycle at high rates of speed is a good thing and anyone who has any equipment that is never pushed to its FULL limits knows why. The equipment tends to last longer, run smoother, and has less stress. And in this aspect AGD is a clear winner.

Now, this also means that if there was a full auto PUSH, AGD would easily be the leader in the market. I think this is where Tom is torn…. his feelings (and rightly so) about how full auto is not really a good thing as situations stand, and his ability to LEAD in that market if all others refuse to put a “cap” on either their rates of fire, or if the ability to bypass any restrictive measures built into the markers (not unlike governors on American Cars, and other equipment) is not seriously combated.

Again, this is not just an issue for marker manufacturers (as I see it), but one that includes manufacturers of loading devices as well, since they work hand in hand. And this would mean that Field Owners, Event Coordinators, Marker and Equipment manufacturers, Paintball Lobbying Groups, etc. would have to stand together for once and say they are going to STOP what could very well end up being the killer of the Paintball Industry… full auto with high cycling rates.

We have seen many other industries do the same thing and they did not lose customers. Sometimes an Industry has to look past the immediate dollar (and a few whining customers) and to the good of the future of the industry. How much money can they make if Paintball is banned everywhere and noone can legally play it? Sure, people will ALWAYS demand MORE, FASTER, FARTHER, … but it is up to those in the Industry to do the responsible thing. If not because it is the right thing to do, but because if they DON’T, things could get so out of hand that they kill their own Industry.

I do not mean to sound all doom and gloom, but would like people to understand that many times single issues are not as simple as they think they are, and that they affect more than the base issue itself. Tom Kaye is trying to put this word out… and I stand with him. Let’s hope the rest of the industry heeds the warnings…..

As for Rooster’s further comments… they are proof that some people will do what they want no matter how rational of an argument people present to them, or what the LAWS may be. There are some who will do as they please no matter how it affects those around them. If he does not agree with a law, he simply BREAKS it, he does not try to change it, or fight for it.. but chooses to break it. (this is from his OWN words) This type of individual worries me since that is NOT how society works, and they think they can do whatever they want on “their” land… when this is just not true. You live in a country that affords you great rights, privileges, and also responsibilities… and this does come with a price… following the laws.. even on YOUR property.

He also states:

And until the ignorant parents of ignorant children stop buying them paintball guns and turning them lose, their ignorant parents are going to be pushing for ingorant laws to cover up their own ignorance. Ranting and raving about google use isn't going to change that.
Ignorant implies the lack of knowledge… and that can be fixed. And I think most would agree that it is incredibly STUPID to not wear proper face and eye protection while playing paintball. Rooster is a regular player of the sport, and professes to know about it, so he can not claim ignorance…. So what would that make him when it concerns the issue of goggles?

Also, to compare paintball to well organized sports is just not fair. Boxing, sure it is disliked by many people, but the INDUSTRY is well regulated. You also don’t see kids going around making boxing rings and “going at it” either… but you DO with paintball. There are many other differences but we have discussed them all many times here on AO.

Until people stop pointing fingers at everything else (and every other sport.. which by the way have been WELL established and regulated) and start dealing with our OWN problems, NO problems will be fixed with paintball.

What do you think those like Rooster will say when they are in jail for playing an outlawed sport? And do you think what they have to say then will help the Industry and those who so loved the sport before it got closed down? Good question….

[Rooster]

Ignorant implies the lack of knowledge… and that can be fixed. And I think most would agree that it is incredibly STUPID to not wear proper face and eye protection while playing paintball. Rooster is a regular player of the sport, and professes to know about it, so he can not claim ignorance…. So what would that make him when it concerns the issue of goggles?

Over ten years ago ski goggles were eye and a face protection. People who cared about their eyes wore them, those that didn't, wore some type of saftey glasses. They also wore alot of camo, and face painting was the norm. Some of those people are still playing the same way they were then. Why should these people change their way of play, and the way they dress becuase of public preasure? I don't play that style of game anymore, and since my sight is important to me, i do wear full face protection. That doesn't change my opinion that adults have the right to choose how they dress to play when they are planning on playing on private property. Of course field owners have the right to tell people how to dress when they come onto the owners property, its their property afterall.



Also, to compare paintball to well organized sports is just not fair. Boxing, sure it is disliked by many people, but the INDUSTRY is well regulated. You also don’t see kids going around making boxing rings and “going at it” either… but you DO with paintball. There are many other differences but we have discussed them all many times here on AO.

Until people stop pointing fingers at everything else (and every other sport.. which by the way have been WELL established and regulated) and start dealing with our OWN problems, NO problems will be fixed with paintball.

What do you think those like Rooster will say when they are in jail for playing an outlawed sport? And do you think what they have to say then will help the Industry and those who so loved the sport before it got closed down? Good question….

i'm not sure what you call well regualted, but boxing isn't. Its full of fixed matches and rampant cheating. But lets look at another quasi-sport, like professional wrestling. That is a sport that has adults building rings and doing extremely dangerous moves on each other. Now should all those adults have to wear protective gear beacuse one of them might get their neck snapped? Should someone tell them how to behave when wrestling on their private propety? People have died wrestling, and yet i havn't seen it banned anywhere.

There are no fingers to point here, however, becuase there is no problem with paintball. There are overzellous parents and lawmakers trying to pass unconstituational laws in an attempt to show their teeth. And as far as sitting in jail, i have no problem using civil disobedience to violate an unconstitutional law. And maybe you should talk to Dr. Martain Luther King Jr. about not having any voice while sitting in jail.

The Baltimore paintball ban will not hold water and will be stricken down by the first legal challenge it sees. And it will only show what buffoons the city council was for ever even trying to act on it.

[shartley]

Over ten years ago ski goggles were eye and a face protection. People who cared about their eyes wore them, those that didn't, wore some type of saftey glasses. They also wore alot of camo, and face painting was the norm. Some of those people are still playing the same way they were then. Why should these people change their way of play, and the way they dress becuase of public preasure? I don't play that style of game anymore, and since my sight is important to me, i do wear full face protection. That doesn't change my opinion that adults have the right to choose how they dress to play when they are planning on playing on private property. Of course field owners have the right to tell people how to dress when they come onto the owners property, its their property afterall.
And what was the demographic for paintball 10 years ago? How large was the industry and how many participants did it have at that point? How easy was it for the common person to just go and get the equipment? What were the capabilities of the equipment 10 years ago? How does that compare to numbers and situations today?

You are going to have to do better than that if you want to win any arguments. Sorry. The changing numbers, demographics, equipment, and situations dictate the appropriate measures…. Not outdated statistics and “war stories”.


i'm not sure what you call well regualted, but boxing isn't. Its full of fixed matches and rampant cheating. But lets look at another quasi-sport, like professional wrestling. That is a sport that has adults building rings and doing extremely dangerous moves on each other. Now should all those adults have to wear protective gear beacuse one of them might get their neck snapped? Should someone tell them how to behave when wrestling on their private propety? People have died wrestling, and yet i havn't seen it banned anywhere.
The problem with Boxing is that too many people regulate it, making it easy to get around things. But Paintball on the other hand really has NOONE regulating it… or at least noone that holds any real weight.

As for any other sport such as Pro Wrestling.. that is an “Exhibition Sport” or an act. They ARE athletes, but their “sport” is not considered in the same circles as most other organized sports… sorry. But you are correct, they DO have their problems…..

But I can’t stomach people pointing out that others have problems so it makes OUR problems okay. That is just irresponsible. Do you think arguing that others do bad things will help YOU in court? So do you think arguing that other sports or activities have problems will help Paintball? I don’t.


And as far as sitting in jail, i have no problem using civil disobedience to violate an unconstitutional law. And maybe you should talk to Dr. Martain Luther King Jr. about not having any voice while sitting in jail.You are comparing playing a GAME with civil rights? Get a grip. Your mentioning of such an important and great man in conjunction with your wishes and boasts to play a GAME illegally (if paintball is banned) on your own property is an insult to all he stood for. It also shows how irrational and illogical you are, or are being at this time.

You just like parsing words to avoid your own foolish statements. And I for one will not discuss it with you any more. I am glad people like you are not in charge of a single thing in paintball because we truly WOULD be talking about an extinct industry right now.

Good day…

[raehl]

1) Your sporting analogies are not valid. Neither professional wrestling nor boxing is dependent on the use of sporting equipment. You're not going to be harmed by boxing or wrestling unless you're in a boxing or wrestling ring. No one walking down the street needs to worry about accidentally stumbling into a wrestling or boxing ring. Furthermore, neither boxing nor wrestling attempt to appeal to the PARTICIPATION of the general population. Our ability to play paintball in an inexpensive manner depends on the ability of MANY people to participate - boxing and wrestling are not popular sports, as measured by participation. Lots of spectators, very few participants. Paintball would simply not survive without lots of participants keeping paint and equipment pricing reasonable.

2) People should wear the appropriate equipment because 1) It's the responsible thing to do and 2) That equipment is now readily available and affordable, especially in comparison to the costs of getting your eye shot out. Just because you choose to play without appropriate protection doesn't mean I should have to pay for your stupidity through higher insurance rates. If you do really believe that it's "your right' to play without goggles because it "doesn't affect anyone else", I don't want to see you filing an insurance claim when you have to go to the hospital to get your eye fixed. Your choice, YOU pay for it.

3) On what grounds would the Baltimore ban be overturned? A municipality is perfectly within their legal authority to ban the sale and possession of paintball markers, just like they could fireworks or lawn darts or driving without a license. In this matter, you're just plain ignorant. Come on, I really want to see you answer this one, Mr. I kow Everything About the Constitution.

4) You people who believe the NRA is the solution for everything are idiots. The NRA exists for one purpose: To prevent the government from creating legislation against the use of firearms. SOMETIMES this means we have mutual interests, SOMETIMES it means we don't. For example, paintball competes for land use with gun owners who would rather use the same land to hunt. Further, NRA involvement is harmful. Anyone who would do something because the NRA says so likely isn't going to vote for an anti-paintball law in the first place - but there are plenty of people who WOULD vote for an anti-paintball law precisely because the NRA opposes it.

You need to understand that all of those "zealots" out there are just as much americans and have just as much of a right to vote an dinfluence over the process as you do. Do you think violating the law is acceptable when you don't agree with it? If you do, don't be surprised when the cops beat you in the interogation room after they arrest you. Oh, it's illegal? Guess they didn't agree with the law - tough crap for you. If you think the laws you don't like don't matter, then the laws that protect you don't matter either.


What's scary about you Rooster is that not only do you understand nothing that you're saying because you apparently have zero education on the related issues, but you also for some reason think you have a clue.

You don't. It's almost painful to read your ignorance.


- Chris

[Rooster]

civil rights like maybe the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? If playing paintball on my property and i'm assembling with people of my choosing, and those people are above the legal age to decide what to do with their lives, its my constitutional right to do that.



And what was the demographic for paintball 10 years ago? How large was the industry and how many participants did it have at that point? How easy was it for the common person to just go and get the equipment? What were the capabilities of the equipment 10 years ago? How does that compare to numbers and situations today?

You are going to have to do better than that if you want to win any arguments. Sorry. The changing numbers, demographics, equipment, and situations dictate the appropriate measures…. Not outdated statistics and “war stories”.

Like i said, the people playing like they were ten years ago, have every right to continue to play like they have been. I don't care if the in thing becomes for people to turn there markers down to 150 FPS and have their grade school children shoot each other, im still going to play the game like I am now. And those vets are going to play the game like they have been. They didn't go out and try to sell guns to kids, they didn't start young guns programs, and they have no responsibility to people they want nothing to do with.

[shartley]

This is not an argument or a discussion.... but I have to make one comment...

civil rights like maybe the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? If playing paintball on my property and i'm assembling with people of my choosing, and those people are above the legal age to decide what to do with their lives, its my constitutional right to do that.
LOLROF Someone needs serious education.

[Rooster]

1) Your sporting analogies are not valid. Neither professional wrestling nor boxing is dependent on the use of sporting equipment. You're not going to be harmed by boxing or wrestling unless you're in a boxing or wrestling ring. No one walking down the street needs to worry about accidentally stumbling into a wrestling or boxing ring. Furthermore, neither boxing nor wrestling attempt to appeal to the PARTICIPATION of the general population. Our ability to play paintball in an inexpensive manner depends on the ability of MANY people to participate - boxing and wrestling are not popular sports, as measured by participation. Lots of spectators, very few participants. Paintball would simply not survive without lots of participants keeping paint and equipment pricing reasonable.

So every one within 500 feet of a field should be wearing goggles? Even if they are just walking down the street? Should everyone at a baseball game be wearing a helmet in case a foul ball falls on them? There are many undergroud wrestling circuits who do have untrained everyday people participating. And if expensive paintball means less children with over protective monthers playing, i'm all for it.



2) People should wear the appropriate equipment because 1) It's the responsible thing to do and 2) That equipment is now readily available and affordable, especially in comparison to the costs of getting your eye shot out. Just because you choose to play without appropriate protection doesn't mean I should have to pay for your stupidity through higher insurance rates. If you do really believe that it's "your right' to play without goggles because it "doesn't affect anyone else", I don't want to see you filing an insurance claim when you have to go to the hospital to get your eye fixed. Your choice, YOU pay for it.

I agree, and i happen to like my eyes. However people shouldn't be forced to wear that equipment, and they shouldn't be hassled when they don't. However i do pay insurance, and have paid far more than i have ever drawn out of it. If my eye gets shot out by my fualt or someone eleses, and insurance covers it, your damn right im goingto use it. But perhaps thats not fair. And while your at it, people who smoke and get cancer shouldn't be covered either. Nor anyone who rides a motorcycle without a helmet. Nor anyone who drives without a seat belt.



3) On what grounds would the Baltimore ban be overturned? A municipality is perfectly within their legal authority to ban the sale and possession of paintball markers, just like they could fireworks or lawn darts or driving without a license. In this matter, you're just plain ignorant. Come on, I really want to see you answer this one, Mr. I kow Everything About the Constitution.

4) You people who believe the NRA is the solution for everything are idiots. The NRA exists for one purpose: To prevent the government from creating legislation against the use of firearms. SOMETIMES this means we have mutual interests, SOMETIMES it means we don't. For example, paintball competes for land use with gun owners who would rather use the same land to hunt. Further, NRA involvement is harmful. Anyone who would do something because the NRA says so likely isn't going to vote for an anti-paintball law in the first place - but there are plenty of people who WOULD vote for an anti-paintball law precisely because the NRA opposes it.

You need to understand that all of those "zealots" out there are just as much americans and have just as much of a right to vote an dinfluence over the process as you do. Do you think violating the law is acceptable when you don't agree with it? If you do, don't be surprised when the cops beat you in the interogation room after they arrest you. Oh, it's illegal? Guess they didn't agree with the law - tough crap for you. If you think the laws you don't like don't matter, then the laws that protect you don't matter either.

If a community wants to ban the sale of markers and playing on their property, thats up to them. They however are going to have a huge fight on their hands if they try to ban ownership or playing on private property. Now considering the initial succes of Canada to classify paintball guns as firearms, it would follow that the same could be done in the US. Of course this means FA paintball guns would be in trouble, however it would give paintball GUNS constitutional protection.

Like i said, i firmly beleive in civil disobedeance. Slavery was the law, did that make it right? Some people feel strongly about freedom of speech, others about the right to trial by jury, I feel strongly about the freedom of assembly and the right to keep and bear arms. I feel strongly about the rights of people to do what they like on their own property as long as they arn't hurting innocent by standers. If that involves beating the crap out of each other ala fight club, or playing paintball without eye protection, if all participants are of legal age, its their right to assemble and do what they like.

[raehl]

"If a community wants to ban the sale of markers and playing on their property, thats up to them. They however are going to have a huge fight on their hands if they try to ban ownership or playing on private property."

Wrong, and this is another case of you just simply not knowing what you're talking about. Playing paintball is *ALREADY* banned on *ANY* property, private or otherwise, in pretty much any urban area in the country under existing laws which ban the discharge of projectiles within urban limits. Penalties range from fines to jail time. These are perfectly constitutional, established, and judicially tested laws. If I go outside my parent's house in my back yard and fire my paintball marker, the cops are going to show up, and depending on their mood, confiscate the marker or issue a fine or possibly even arrest me. And that's fine - private property or otherwise, the city has determined, through a democratic process, that me using projectiles on my property is an undue risk to the rights of my neighbors to use their private property in a safe manner.

No one has the right to do anything they want, private property or otherwise, because that would necessitate no one else having any rights.


As for your insurance analogies, there are laws against driving without your seatbelt, and there are laws in many states against riding a motor cycle without a helmet - precisely because people don't want to pay the higher insurance rates to cover those who don't use the appropriate equipment. If you are arguing that people who have their eyes shot out should be able to use their insurance to pay for it (as you are), and site seatbelts as an example (as you do), then you are also arguing that there should be laws requiring that people where goggles when playing paintball. Pretty stupid of you to use examples of safety equipment you're legally mandated to use to demonstrate that people shouldn't/can't be legally mandated to use safety equipment, isn't it? "Everyone has the right to choose not to use safety equipment, like seat belts, which everyone is required to wear." You're a riot, you know that?


And yes, EVERYONE within LOS and range of a paintball field should be wearing goggles, even if they're just walking down the street. That's why we have netting. The analogy does not apply to baseball because the odds that the ONE baseball used in the game in the park hits you when you're not looking are very slim compared tothe odds that one of the thousands of paintballs fired in a game hits you when you're not looking.

As for slavery, no, it was not right - but you change the law by electing people who write different laws, not by simply ignoring the laws that exist. But again, your analogy is not valid, as you're talking about a permitted activity being wrong, not, as we are talking about here, a prohibitted activity being right. Your arguement would hold that those persons who lived in a Northern state prior to the Civil War could own slaves if they believed that the laws prohibitted slavery were wrong.

The problem with believing you don't have to obey the law when you don't think it's right is that then other people don't have to obey the law when they don't think it's right either. That's chaos. Better a few laws that are wrong than no laws at all.

And laws don't just magically appear - they are written by the people who participate in society. If you don't participate, you can't be surprised when the rest of society doesn't write the laws you want.

- Chris

[Rooster]

Ah little Mr. high and mighty, you pick what you want to refute, and ingnore the rest, so i like you, will do the same. First of all, in this state it is not a requirement to wear a motocycle helmet, and it is also legal to drive historic cars that do not have seat belts.

Secondly, it is only illegal to discharge weapons where there is a danger of hurting someone. If im in said village and a big man comes into my house brandishing a gun, i can shoot him dead and it will be perfectly legal.

"No one has the right to do anything they want, private property or otherwise, because that would necessitate no one else having any rights."

I never said anyone can do anything they want, i said they can do anything they like as long as they arn't violating the rights of someone else.


"And yes, EVERYONE within LOS and range of a paintball field should be wearing goggles, even if they're just walking down the street. That's why we have netting. The analogy does not apply to baseball because the odds that the ONE baseball used in the game in the park hits you when you're not looking are very slim compared tothe odds that one of the thousands of paintballs fired in a game hits you when you're not looking."

And what about hockey? People have died from getting hit by pucks, even with the boards in place. Could you remind me of the last time a spectator died at a paintball game? And how much netting is 100% safe? Isn't it concievable that the net could fail? And if paintball ever becomes an area sport, will everyone need to wear goggles to an event, just in case the net fails? Of course that will be up to the owner of the area, or to the organizer of the event. Just like it will be up to the people that play in their own woods to decide what people waer when playing and when spectating.




"As for slavery, no, it was not right - but you change the law by electing people who write different laws, not by simply ignoring the laws that exist. But again, your analogy is not valid, as you're talking about a permitted activity being wrong, not, as we are talking about here, a prohibitted activity being right. Your arguement would hold that those persons who lived in a Northern state prior to the Civil War could own slaves if they believed that the laws prohibitted slavery were wrong.

The problem with believing you don't have to obey the law when you don't think it's right is that then other people don't have to obey the law when they don't think it's right either. That's chaos. Better a few laws that are wrong than no laws at all.

And laws don't just magically appear - they are written by the people who participate in society. If you don't participate, you can't be surprised when the rest of society doesn't write the laws you want. "

Society manages to write some laws that are wrong. There were laws passed early in our country's history preventing free speech when it came to talking about the Federalist party. Your attitude honestly scares me. Its people like you that let Hitler rise to power, people like you that stood back and watched Stalin carry out the purges. Who watched Mao kill the academics. Laws that are wrong can not be followed. Allowing ourselves to become sheep for the sake of order is wrong. If you can't see that, then i truely feel sorry for you.

[raehl]

"First of all, in this state it is not a requirement to wear a motocycle helmet, and it is also legal to drive historic cars that do not have seat belts. "

I said in some states for helmets. And fine, the law, in most cases, says you have to wear a seatbelt if your car is equipped with one. There's generally an exemption for equipment that is no longer in common use and was not originally constucted with safety equipment, which is what, maybe .1% of automobiles on the road? Of course, none of this invalidates the original argument, which is that it is perfectly reasonable and legal to mandate the use of safety equipment, and stupid of you to attempt to prove otherwise by citing instances where the use of safety equipment is legally mandated.

""No one has the right to do anything they want, private property or otherwise, because that would necessitate no one else having any rights.""

"I never said anyone can do anything they want, i said they can do anything they like as long as they arn't violating the rights of someone else."

Actually, you originally said "If a community wants to ban the sale of markers and playing on their property, thats up to them. They however are going to have a huge fight on their hands if they try to ban ownership or playing on private property." What you're missing is that it isperfectly possible to do things on your own private property that STILL violate the rights of others, and this still doesn't change the original point: There are MANY things you are legally prohibitted from doing, even on your own private property. Your belief that you can do whatever you want on your land is just incredibly stupid. Zoning laws would be a case and point.


"And what about hockey? People have died from getting hit by pucks, even with the boards in place."

While I can't speak for all of hockey, in the entire history of the NHL, *ONE* spectator has died from being struck by a puck in the stands. One. One out of millions is hardly risk worth mentioning - certainly nothing close to the risk of driving a car.

"Could you remind me of the last time a spectator died at a paintball game?"

We're not just trying to prevent death, we're trying to prevent blindness. Blindness is prevented by the use of netting.

"And how much netting is 100% safe? Isn't it concievable that the net could fail? And if paintball ever becomes an area sport, will everyone need to wear goggles to an event, just in case the net fails?"

It's CONCEIVABLE (although we're likely not that lucky) that you could be struck by lightning tomorrow. It isn't likely, and it isn't likely that netting will fail. The use of netting makes the risk of getting hit by a paintball coming through the area coverred by the netting so minimal that it isn't worth considering.

"Of course that will be up to the owner of the area, or to the organizer of the event. Just like it will be up to the people that play in their own woods to decide what people waer when playing and when spectating. "

So what's your point? All your saying is that people can be stupid if they want to. Way to defend your right to be a dumbass. Being able to be stupid does not mean there are not consequences for being stupid.

"Society manages to write some laws that are wrong. There were laws passed early in our country's history preventing free speech when it came to talking about the Federalist party. Your attitude honestly scares me. Its people like you that let Hitler rise to power, people like you that stood back and watched Stalin carry out the purges. Who watched Mao kill the academics. Laws that are wrong can not be followed. Allowing ourselves to become sheep for the sake of order is wrong. If you can't see that, then i truely feel sorry for you."

Society passes bad laws when society lets bad laws be passed. I participate in my government. The kind of people who let Hitler come to power are those who complacently sit by as their leaderscircumvent the democratic process because the economy is good. Nazis were able to do what they did not because there were bad laws, but because people allowed their democratic process to be circumvented. The disctintion between bad laws and bad governmetns is a very large distinction that you're missing. Unfortunately, I doubt you really know anything about how the Nazi party managed to get control of the government in Germany, just like I'm pretty sure you have no idea how Stalin came into power either. Stalin didn't come to power in a democracy - he came to power as the result of a regime instilled by people acting outside the bounds of the law.

It's very cute of you to cite bad governments in history without any understanding about how those governments came to be. It's also worth noting that in those cases, what you had were people acting without any regard to the democratic determination of the population - exactly what you're advocating ignoring.


And lastly...

"Secondly, it is only illegal to discharge weapons where there is a danger of hurting someone. If im in said village and a big man comes into my house brandishing a gun, i can shoot him dead and it will be perfectly legal. "

And now you're just talking out your ***. Laws against the discharge of projectiles in urban areas are just that. You can't do it, period, whether you think you'll hurt someone or not. Most do have exemptions for use in defense of person or property, but it is *NEVER* legal in areas with anti-projectile ordinaces to discharge projectiles, whether they be from firearms, bb guns, or paintguns.

Anyway, your rather ignorant use of a Hitler analogy coupled with starting to just make stuff up means this "argument" is over. You're wrong and you've taken to completely irrelevant analogies and non-existent "facts" to try and convince yourself otherwise.

To reiterate:

1) Laws which ban possession and use paintball markers, while stupid, are perfectly constitutional.
2) Private property is no obstacle to such laws, and laws banning the use pf paintball equipment on private property already exist, and are quite common, reasonable, and constitutionally accepted.
3) Irresponsible use of paintball equipment, while your "right", is still irresponsible, and increases the chances that one of those stupid, yet entirely constitutional, laws gets passed.
4) If it gets passed, despite your "noble" attempts to resist through civil disobedience, you'll still end up inside a jail cell, and the rest of us won't have paintballs or paintball equipment to buy or a place to use them.

Not that I expect you to actually do so - if you're not willing to do the simple things to keep paintball legal, I highly doubt you're willing to sit in a jail cell over it either.

- Chris

[Rooster]

"And now you're just talking out your ***. Laws against the discharge of projectiles in urban areas are just that. You can't do it, period, whether you think you'll hurt someone or not. Most do have exemptions for use in defense of person or property, but it is *NEVER* legal in areas with anti-projectile ordinaces to discharge projectiles, whether they be from firearms, bb guns, or paintguns. "

You contridict yourself in your own paragraph.



"Laws against the discharge of projectiles in urban areas are just that. You can't do it, period, whether you think you'll hurt someone or not."

"Most do have exemptions for use in defense of person or property,"

I thought you just got down saying it couldn't be done, period?


"Of course, none of this invalidates the original argument, which is that it is perfectly reasonable and legal to mandate the use of safety equipment, and stupid of you to attempt to prove otherwise by citing instances where the use of safety equipment is legally mandated. "

do you really think its law to wear your seat belt becuase the government wants to keep you safe? Ever thought why they don't make air-bags law? They arn't to keep you safe, its to keep your butt in the seat when you wreak into something. So you don't lose control of your car. Thats way many state allow people to ride without helmets, but still require the use of seat belts. Seat belts arn't their for your protection, they are there for everyone else's.


"So what's your point? All your saying is that people can be stupid if they want to. Way to defend your right to be a dumbass. Being able to be stupid does not mean there are not consequences for being stupid. "

Becuase people have the right to be stupid as long as its not hurting anyone else. I agree there are consequences for being stupid, you could lose your eyes. That that stupid person's problem to deal with. If someone wants to play without goggles that their problem, not you and your little goggle gestapo's.

[raehl]

Right, I mispoke. It's not legal to discharge a projectile unless in defense of person or property - which still excludes your blatantly false assertion that it's just "when someone might be harmed".

And the government mandates seatbelt use for multiple reasons, but mainly to keep insurance costs down, the same reasons more and more states are proposing and passing helmet laws.

And the whole point is that playing without goggles *IS* hurting other people, by creating situations where it's easier for paintball ban laws to get passed and situations which make it harder for fields to get and stay open and paintball to be an organized activity. Playing without goggles is *NOT* a choice that only has consequences for the person making it, it has consequences for *ALL* paintball players.

So no, you can't decide to not wear goggles, because then people like me have to pay for your stupidity. Other people not playing with goggles *IS* my problem because it threatens *MY* ability to play.

- Chris

[MrMag]

ok, here is my opinion on things:

who cares what u think about wearing goggles or not, if u dont, and u get blinded and or killed, u will see the paintball industries makings drop so quickly u'll schite your pants. ur basically saying that someone should be able to tempt fate for the hell of it. that is also what serial killers do....IT IS NOT OK.

now to tippman. they really screwed up making an mpk wanna be marker. when i first saw it, i thought it was a joke. how can u possibely think that making a paintball marker look like an actual rifle is ok; especially during these times. that gun marker should be banned.

and lastly, what is the point of full auto. u cant use it in most corses, it is incredibely cheap, and takes no skill. all it shows is that u have a lot of money, and that ur a cheap bastard.

tk, i luv u man, and i luv ur markers. i understand what u were trying to show everyone, but what these other guys r trying to say, is that others may not. so u have to be catious.

[shartley]

Becuase people have the right to be stupid as long as its not hurting anyone else.
LOL (Again)

Once again someone needs SERIOUS education, and they speak of things they know nothing about.

[blackmag3]

it's my opinion that paintball will never be banned as a sport. reason being soccer is still a sport and they have riots in the stands which result in massive public harm , death and damage. look at euopean soccer , when the crowd says kill the ref they sometimes really mean it and have done so on numerous occasions. if soccer can get away with riots and tramplings and numerous innocent bystanders getting killed or maimed , paintball won't get banned. untill soccer is banned paintball will still be legal.

[raehl]

Again, you're missing the parallels. Regardless, it's not the SPORT that will be banned, it's the use/possession of the equipment that will.

There have been multiple laws proposed to ban or severely restrict paintball in the past year. How many for soccer? While I'm not positive, I'm willing to bet none.

Since people are trying to ban paintball and no one is trying to ban soccer, I'd be inclined to believe paintball will be banned first.


The problem with these arugments is that if the point comes where it's proven that I'm right and this all is a serious concern, it'll already be too late.

- Chris

[manike]

Originally posted by blackmag3
when the crowd says kill the ref they sometimes really mean it and have done so on numerous occasions.

I've never heard of a ref being killed? Care to tell me where I can find evidence of this?


Originally posted by blackmag3
if soccer can get away with riots and tramplings and numerous innocent bystanders getting killed or maimed , paintball won't get banned. untill soccer is banned paintball will still be legal.

Tramplings are very rare and were not caused by violence or any other issue rather than crowd enthusiasm and bad crowd control. That issue is not relevant here.

As for innocents getting killed? Not very likely. All the incidents I know of where people have gotten hurt or killed were where the parties were involved in the trouble and it got taken too far. I don't personally think any of them were completely innocent.

You are portraying a picture which is worse than what really happens with very little proof. That is what Chris and I and the rest are worried will happen with the Turd Video and pictures. Your use of some 'facts' from European soccer mixed up with a lot of 'interpretation' paint a picture that is not representative. You prove exactly why we are concerned about this and how people can embelish the facts.

manike

[billmi]

Originally posted by Rooster

If a community wants to ban the sale of markers and playing on their property, thats up to them. They however are going to have a huge fight on their hands if they try to ban ownership or playing on private property.


It already is illegal to play paintball in a majority of cities in the US (violation of airgun discharge ordinances), and in some cities like New York City, it is illegal to posess a paintgun.

Where's this "huge fight" you were talking about?

And as for the NRA protecting paintball, I have a friend who worked for a few years as an NRA lobyist. She's told me that the NRA specifically avoids any protection of paintball, as they will not support something that involves aiming a "gun" at living people who are not posing a direct threat to the life of others.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Will Wood]

I get lit up without rubber protecting me. So does everyone else at one point or another. Must of the times I know I will get lit up. (IE, Charging towards 3 guys with impulses during a game of hopper ball, resulting in dozens of welts on me, and a few on their rear ends). Other times we don't anticipate it, in a game. What's wrong with some one willingly volenterring to be shot, and then at that with protection. It may be stupidity, but what's wrong with it? Ever watch shows like Ripleys Believe it or Not, Guiness World Records, or any other stunt shows that show odd things? Like a man getting hit by a cannon ball, on his bare belly. Now are you going to try to bring up a arguement about Pirates appearing and shooting people with their cannons? No. Another person was run over by a truck. Is that driver going to start running over everyone? No. Just because one man is a idiot and gets lit up doesn't mean everyone is going to start think it ok and start liting up everyone in their sight.

[Jenadin]

Thats one point, another is that if these doomers are so
great at predicting the future of paintball after viewing a video, why don't they get a job with Miss Cleo?

[shartley]

Jenadin

Thats one point, another is that if these doomers are so
great at predicting the future of paintball after viewing a video, why don't they get a job with Miss Cleo?
Thank you so much for your so insightful and constructive comment.:rolleyes:

Note: Ms Cleo is in court from the last I knew.

I would also trust my predictions…. I have not been wrong yet. And please keep in mind that noone is saying things WILL happen, but they COULD. And if you can defuse a bomb before it goes off wouldn’t the smart thing be to do it?

There are also 2 issues being discussed in this thread…. One has been solved by Tom already (good job Tom), and the other is pure ignorance VS common sense.

[MagDog68]

I rather enjoy little pot shots...they are usually more entertaining. :) Thanks Jenadin.

~Fred

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by Rooster
The only person that threatens your right to play, is you. I'm not going to be stopped by unconstitutional laws, especially when I'm playing on my own property. And as far as responsibility, if i drink till im nearly blind and jump behind the wheel of a car, thats a big problem. If i want to drink myself blind and not hurt anyone else by driving, i can do that. Someone else might feel full face protection is over-rated, and play with saftey glasses. As long as its themselves they are putting in danger, and not others, then you have no right to say whats responsible and whats not. Just like I can drink myself blind and as long as i don't drive, the only person in danger, is myself.

You would have been great friends with the temperance ladies, trying to dictate to others how they should live, and treat their own bodies. [/B]

You know, if I was the friend or family member that was playing with you on your land while you are not wearing a mask, I would refuse to play. You would probably be the first to sue my a$$ when i shot you in the eye and you went blind. And you know what? You would win that case. It pays to be stupid some times.

[hitech]

Originally posted by blackmag3
it's my opinion that paintball will never be banned as a sport. Until soccer is banned paintball will still be legal.

BTW, Paintball HAS BEEN banned before. Not only CAN it happen, it HAS happened.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Rooster
As long as its themselves they are putting in danger, and not others, then you have no right to say what's responsible and what's not.

There are existing laws to stop people from putting themselves in danger. Suicide is illegal. Many states require seat belts and motorcycle helmets. There are other laws against doing something that is "manifestly unsafe". If you hurt or kill yourself, SOMEONE else is affected by it. Even if it's only cleaning up the mess.

[Top Secret]

Originally posted by hitech


There are existing laws to stop people from putting themselves in danger. Suicide is illegal.

Now lets think about that one there for a second... :rolleyes: Are they going to put you in jail for killing yourself?

Can't believe my tax dollars are wasted by politicians with stuff like that...

This country is EXTREMELY messed up.


And Tom, I am very happy to see your views on full-auto in paintball as stated earlier in the thread and support them fully.

-Molon Labe

[manike]

They can put you in jail if your suicide attempt is unsuccessful and in order to stop you attempting it again. The law is there to protect you from yourself...

manike

[hitech]

Originally posted by Top Secret
Now lets think about that one there for a second... :rolleyes: Are they going to put you in jail for killing yourself?


That is not how the law is used. :rolleyes: It is used to STOP someone from killing themselves. If you attempt suicide the police can forcibly stop you, among other things.

[Linx]

6 pages of posts! Over a publicity stunt? I've just spent a half hour reading these posts yet still no one has been able to change my opinion. Many good points were made but the fact remains that it was done to make people talk. Would we be having this discussion if the marker was an Angel? Probably. Some of us would be condemning WDP for the stunt and the other half would be wishing our marker could do that. You can't blame Tom. If he didn't do it they probably would have used another marker. Besides controversy sells. It may not all be good but it still sells. Please Tom don't listen to them, make it double barreled, triple scoped, and heat seeking. O...and full auto. People pay more to have the biggest, fastest, best, "insert adjective here". If they need it or not is not the question. How many people would rather have a Ford Pinto over a Dodge Viper? Really? They both get you from point A to B. Ya, full auto may be unnecessary. What can you do with FA that can't be done with 6 shot burst? But, that's besides the point. AGD doesn't sell FA markers. But they do sell the fastest. That is the point that was trying to be made. And for all of you how complain about being unsafe. You're far more likely to get killed in a car accident on your way home then be killed by a paintball. Even if you were wearing you proper safety equipment (seat belt, air bag, etc.). That doesn't mean I'm for playing without it. I'm just saying that even in a designated goggle free zone a player can forget his plug and take out an eye. It's and unsafe world. Lets try to set good examples to our kids. But realize how many people have been hurt while playing paintball compared to any other sport. I think you would feel a whole lot safer about the sport your in.


Jesse

[raehl]

Doesn't mean you should.

Marketing doesn't do you any good if it just gets your product banned from the market or alienates potential customers. There are a whole slew of potential consequences of that video that have not been (and won't be) mentioned here because I don't want to be giving anyone any ideas, but are the kind of thing that could severely impact AGD's ability to do business, not to mention all of our abilities to play paintball.

- Chris

[Jenadin]

I would say that the previous posters position has reached critical mass as he is now forced to defend it with the old "reasons he'd rather not mention or he'd have to kill us" defence......(yawn)

[raehl]

Actually, all the reasons I've already mentioned should be MORE than suficient, and if they're not, the extra ones I'm not mentioning most likely wouldn't work. But if you don't believe me, feel free to drop me a pm/email and I'll be happy to explain them. I just don't want to put them on a web board where 1) The less scrupulous reader may actually try some of it 2) The anti-paintball zealot may use it for material.

- Chris

[manike]

Originally posted by Jenadin
I would say that the previous posters position has reached critical mass as he is now forced to defend it with the old "reasons he'd rather not mention or he'd have to kill us" defence......(yawn)

If you can't see the reasons then you need to open your eyes :rolleyes:

Somethings don't need to be said or shouldn't, in the same way some images and acts should not be presented or condoned.

If you really need it spelling out to you then it will take more than the combined efforts of this board to make you see it.

manike

[Jenadin]

Well, I am still waiting and neither of you have yet to establish a causal link between the destruction of paintball as we know it, and a publicity stunt. If we keep this discussion up just a bit longer, you will be proven wrong by default. Have either of you ever considered joining your local chapters of the Womans Auxilery? Perhaps there, your physcic revelations might fall on sympathetic ears.

[manike]

LMAO, if you don't have the ability to read or at least understand what you read and see the bigger picture, then none of us can help you, and you are not worth our effort. May I suggest high school again?

Proven wrong by default? if you wish to think that way go ahead. Wow, your attitude smacks of a kid sticking his fingers in his ears and whining 'nah nah nah I can't hear you therefore I am right'.

When you want to join the real world come back for a discussion :) Until then you aren't worth my effort or time. Paintball is. You are not.

manike

[manike]

p.s. Jenadin I have just re-read all your posts (all 4 took me a long time...) And I have to say you haven't added anything worth while, or of value to this discussion in the slightest. Please try to make a valuable point or contribution rather than just adding to the ignorance. We are already very familiar with that side of this discussion :)

manike

[Jenadin]

"Until then you aren't worth my effort or time."

moments later....

"and another thing I'm right because of the quantity
of my posts..."


you've been caught wiping again, by Jenadin :cool:

[hitech]

Originally posted by Jenadin
Well, I am still waiting and neither of you have yet to establish a causal link between the destruction of paintball as we know it, and a publicity stunt.

Paintball HAS BEEN BANNED BEFORE. That would be the destruction of paintball for those it affected. While this "publicity stunt" didn't contribute, those supporting the ban would have had a field day...

[Jenadin]

What happened in the past is almost completely irrelevent to what causal effect todays actions will have on the future. Ideas that must operate under the premise "would have" make little sense in a universe governed by only one contiguous time line. Everything is constantly in some state of change and unspecified. One should appreciate this before he/she argues furiously about the impact of this video in a society that can accurately be understood as an extremely complex arrangement of memes, or not be suprised if labeled as a mad prophet. For all anyone knows, this video is just as likely to ultimately have positive effects on your right to play paintball. I'm the one who needs to go to school though, so what do I know? I can't see the "big picture" like you.

[Butterfingers]

The unedited video (perhaps not the new one) could be used as a tool against paintball legally and psycologically. In plain and simple english it makes the sport look bad to the people that dont play it or know very little about it, this includes politicians and anti-paintball advocates.

If you fail to see how a video of a person being pelted at 20 BPS screaming stop and cussing his brains out does not have bad implications for the sport you need to re-evaluate your "causal anlalysis."

____________

You write: "What happened in the past is almost completely irrelevent to what causal effect todays actions will have on the future. Ideas that must operate under the premise "would have" make little sense in a universe governed by only one contiguous time line. Everything is constantly in some state of change and unspecified. One should appreciate this before he/she argues furiously about the impact of this video in a society that can accurately be understood as an extremely complex arrangement of memes, or not be suprised if labeled as a mad prophet. For all anyone knows, this video is just as likely to ultimately have positive effects on your right to play paintball. I'm the one who needs to go to school though, so what do I know? I can't see the "big picture" like you."

____________

I can summarize this into a sentence or two it is best to be concise in your writing...

What happens int he past has little to do with what will happen in the future... There are alot of factors that effect the future.... You can't candy up your language as well as I can, am I confusing you yet?

Let me tell you thats a load of crap... You can't predict the future to a tee but sometimes you can make a pretty good guess of what is going to happen following a certain action.

Thats like saying if I assault the president I don't know if the secret service will put a couple of dozen bullets in my butt... cause there are a "extremely complex assortment of memes" that effect the future. And me assualting the president could be a good thing, it may even win me an invitation the white house... But hey you never know.

What happens in the past definately has an effect on what decisions people make in the future. If you steal things people are going to make laws against stealing things. If cigarette smoking is proven to cause cancer there are people who will want to outlaw tobacco. If drugs are proven to cause social problems there will be a law against drugs. If hanguns are proven to kill people there are going to be laws against handguns. If paintball is proven to injure people there could be restrictions against paintball. We don't need any additional ammunition that can restrict paintball.

Please try not to jargon up your language so much trying to make yourself sound smart to get your point (or lack of a point) across. Looking real carefully through your posts you have made no point under all that jargon.

[raehl]

You're saying that there's no way to predict the effect an event will have on the future course of events, that every action's consequences are just a roll of the dice?

That's ridiculous. If you stop going to work, they'll probably fire you, if you always drive 40 MPH over the speed limit, you'll end up getting a ticket, and if you make videos like this available, they will come back to be used to ban paintball.

While I commend your use of big words, they don't make your logic any more valid. That video has no redeeming positive value for paintball, its availability has a pile of negative consequences for paintball. It may or may not have positive consequences for AGD, depending on how the ability of the video to promote the sale of AGD product stacks up against the video causing people like me to no longer buy AGD products, encourage others to no longer purchase AGD products, and restrict the use of AGD products.

This is a case where acting to prevent the problem from appearing necessitates eliminating the proof that the problem would have appeared without such action. The only way to prove my point of view right would be to not act and allow bans to come into effect, at which point all we'd be able to do is say "hah, told you so" - so I'll have to be content never being proven right and just actually BE right.

What you are arguing is like arguing we don't need to hydrotest tanks every three years because none of the tanks we've been hydrotesting are rupturing. "There's no problem, so our actions to prevent problems are obviously worthless" is just plain stupid.

It is perfectly reasonable to collect information about past events and consequences and apply them to present decisions to determine probable consequences. And past experience strongly indicates that this video is bad - choosing to stick your head in the sand and pretend otherwise for no reason (you have yet to provide any reasoning beyond simply saying it isn't true) does not change that.

Regardless, you have yet to provide any example of circumstances under which this video would benefit paintball - other than your unsupported opinion at any rate.


- Chris

[Jenadin]

"This is a case where acting to prevent the problem from appearing necessitates eliminating the proof that the problem would have appeared without such action. The only way to prove my point of view right would be to not act and allow bans to come into effect, at which point all we'd be able to do is say "hah, told you so" - so I'll have to be content never being proven right and just actually BE right."

I'm sorry. Your offer for attempting to provide proof that
you are right by virtue of the above paradoxial proclaimation has been regected!
I'm going to try and help you. You are not taking full advantage of a potential win win situation here: In your mind, if paintball now continues unharmed, you were right because you (almost single handedly) prevented its demise, and if it fails, you can take solace in "I told you so". You should honestly reconsider and adopt that position.
In the meantime while you are making your decision, I'll be here if you need me.

[shartley]

Jenadin
Sorry fellah, but there are too many people here on AO that ARE intelligent to fool anyone with verbiage. And verbiage alone would only impress a bunch of kids… maybe… well, only dumb ones.

Poor arguments and illogical thinking will always be so, no matter how well you dress them up with intello-babble. Your posts have become fodder for any rational individual and your arguments moot by virtue of sheer irrelevance and gross stupidity.

I will not even give your argument about not being able to predict things that have not yet happened and that the past is irrelevant a rebuttal, because that would indicate that it is anything other than the total rubbish it so unequivocally is.


I'm going to try and help you. You are not taking full advantage of a potential win win situation here: In your mind, if paintball now continues unharmed, you were right because you (almost single handedly) prevented its demise, and if it fails, you can take solace in "I told you so". You should honestly reconsider and adopt that position.
First off, I would like to warn you that you are now putting yourself on a loftier pedestal than those who claim I have done for myself in the past have said I did. Your condescending mannerisms will only get you ostracized here on AO and even more so because you fail to actually prove any points. It is one thing being supercilious and backing it up with rational arguments or proof of positions you hold so closely to… it is yet another to be so and NOT. You my friend fall into the NOT category.

Please do not attempt to tell others what they have in their minds. I think I can state with all certainty that those arguing on the side of caution in regards to the video are NOT saying that if nothing happens they single-handedly stopped bad things from happening.. no more so than by not handing a child a cigarette does not mean that they prevented the child from smoking if the child chose not to. What they are saying is that if you hand a child a lit cigarette and say how “cool” it is, you greatly increase the chances of that child smoking. Same with the video. You can not guarantee outcomes, but why push the issue or stack the deck against yourself before the game even begins?


In the meantime while you are making your decision, I'll be here if you need me.
I highly doubt anyone “needs” you. After all, you clearly lost the argument but continue to argue semantics in what looks like some futile attempt to prove to yourself that you are in some way “smarter” or “more cleaver” than those with whom you banter. One plus one will always be two no matter how eloquently you attempt to dispute that it is not. And you only enforce the opinions of others who may think you are nothing more than meaningless words and self-inflated bravado and counterfeit intellect.

To you I say, “Bah”. A simple word that holds as strong of an argument as any you have offered up to this point. Intelligent words do not win arguments by themselves, it takes a bit more than that. Additionally, before jumping in the ring, it would behoove you to find out whom you will be boxing with.

With this I say good day, and welcome to AO.

[BTAutoMag]

but it was with the persons consent that he was shot. so they are going to have a hissy fit for shooting someone with a non lethal paintball marker who said ok shoot me?
they dont have an argument if no damage was done and the guy gave his consent

[Clare]

wow, some people put the thesaurus to good use!! :D

[Jenadin]

Well lets see, we appear to have a handful of doomsayers here of differing intensity. One argued that he was right because "he has never been wrong about his predictions". Another claimed that since some things appear to be predictable, then it directly follows that "this video will get paintball banned". Yet another claimed that I'm stupid so he's automatically deemed right by default. Recently there appears to be a movement to project inflated opinions about their own intelligence and insite into yours truely. I come here, find a few people claiming the sky is falling, call them on it, and this is the thanks I get? Come on guys, you've got to be able to do better than "I am right because I think I'm right"! :p

[shartley]

LOL And again you are wrong….


Well lets see, we appear to have a handful of doomsayers here of differing intensity. One argued that he was right because "he has never been wrong about his predictions".
Actually, the thing about the predictions being right was NOT because the individual’s predictions have never been wrong… if you actually READ what was written, you would clearly see that this as in ADDITION to other facts, NOT simply because. But you like to take what you want from people’s posts and say whatever you want about it even if it is totally off base… as was THIS.

Another claimed that since some things appear to be predictable, then it directly follows that "this video will get paintball banned".
Again you are wrong, that is NOT what was said in full context of the posts. Yet another good example of you taking what you want and seeing what you want.. even if that is NOT what was said, how it was said, or even close to it.

Yet another claimed that I'm stupid so he's automatically deemed right by default.
Okay, here is another thing that was wrong. I don’t recall anyone saying you were wrong because you are stupid (I am not going to argue that point), but because your arguments were stupid. Your actual intelligence is still undetermined either way. But one thing that has been determined is that you like to post inaccurate things and use only snippets of other people’s posts to say people are saying things they are clearly not. As you can see, I am using your words in their entirety, nothing taken out of context… and you are STILL wrong. And that is not on me, it is on you.

Recently there appears to be a movement to project inflated opinions about their own intelligence and insite into yours truely.
This could not be farther from the truth either. You see, I never project inflated opinions of my own intelligence, and neither did anyone else. It seems you know NOTHING of value about any of those you wish to now claim are inflating self opinions. I am sure most anyone here on AO can tell you that my post to you was actually restrained… And the other people you refer to are also not "acting" on your behalf....get a clue.

I come here, find a few people claiming the sky is falling, call them on it, and this is the thanks I get? Come on guys, you've got to be able to do better than "I am right because I think I'm right"!
LOL If that is not the height of self opinion!!! LOLROF You came in on ONE topic, ONE issue, and one some of us think is very important and now think you know where we stand? And don’t put any more weight into its importance in all paintball issues for us... who do you think you are? It is only one issue. But some people, like yourself seem to think that because an issue is debated that those doing so think it is the ONLY or most important issue around.. that is just not so. Heck look around, there are posts about all sorts of topics here.

Also, to think you deserve any “thanks”…. LOL I can also assure you that when it comes to “the sky is falling” and telling people it is NOT, I am on the top of that list. You evidently have not read ANY of the posts, but skimmed them over to pick at things you wanted to argue about. Noone said the sky was falling, but they DID say that the video could be used to help those who want to end paintball as we know it today. That statement in itself is not one that says it WILL be used, nor that it IS being used, but one that points out that it could.. but, I am now getting into arguments that have already been fully discussed and by some of the most core membership here on AO and highly regarded people who have formulated actual intelligent arguing points… of which you have not.

You are clearly the type that would argue that a piece of white paper was BLACK no matter how many people pointed out the fact it was WHITE. And any proof people present would be brushed aside as if they never said it. To say people are saying they are right because they think they are right is simply ignoring all of the posts listing the actual reasons they ARE right. Again, you refuse to read or even acknowledge they exist… this would indeed make you someone with a real problem.

Your last post was totally wrong… all examples and opinions you drew from it were all wrong… in fact, I have found very little factual statements in ANY of your posts.. or at least not factual as they pertain to THIS issue. Hold up a mirror or at least actually READ what you wrote and you will see someone at the height of self-worship….

And for someone to come to AO and act as if they are our savior because we are such fools, makes any complaints people made about me in the past trivial.

[raehl]

I never said that paintball not getting banned proves I'm right. I said that acting to prevent the chance that the video could be used to help ban paintball means we'll never be able to show that the video would have been used to help ban paintball. Allowing someone to demonstrate that the video can in fact be used to help ban paintball is EXACTLY what we're trying to prevent from happening.

Although making up a point I never said and then rejecting it was worth a good laugh.

As for Turd consenting to get shot, that doesn't matter: You have to view the video not from your paintball-informed perspective, but from the perspective of someone who knows nothing about paintball - no, worse, from the perspective of someone who THINKS they know something about paintball, is WRONG, but becomes even more convinced they are right due to this video of a paintball marker used in extraordinary circumstances with the context of those circumstances removed. If the video were to be used against us, it would not be used in a rational, informative manner - it would be used in an irrational, inaccurate, emotional demonstration.

And I'm not using a thesaurus. I'm just that good. ;)

- Chris

[Jenadin]

So now we are getting somewhere! If I'm understanding you , your anxiety boils down to your insecurity about not being able to rationally defend this video against some uniformed irrational individual?
:confused:

[shartley]

So now we are getting somewhere! If I'm understanding you , your anxiety boils down to your insecurity about not being able to rationally defend this video against some uniformed irrational individual?
Again he shows his rear … Is he really that stupid, or is he only out to break this AO Rule:

• Do not exhibit disruptive behavior

AO members are not his lab rats, and his pseudo “shrink” crap is really getting on my nerves.

All points have been thoroughly discussed and all he does is twist words, misrepresent what was stated, and disregards any rational arguments placed before him. That would indicate that he is only after ONE thing… to disrupt AO.

He has done nothing but shown total disregard for logic and rational debate, and yet still maintains that he is correct.. fine. Okay, you are correct. Those who actually care about paintball and formulate rational arguments are wrong. His “I know you are, but what am I” defense and arguing points, as well as “Na Na Na Na Na Na” positions are getting old. I for one say, enough is enough. He is an idiot and trying to cause problems.. period. He is not after rational debate or constructive conversation.

His new arrival and low post count, coupled with his ONLY causing problems, leads me to believe that this is all he wants. How many other threads has he joined in? How many other conversations has he been a part of? It seems that for someone who knows so much about paintball and all, he would have easily found other threads to have conversations in.. but he has not.. to my knowledge. Again, leading me to believe that he is only out to cause problems.

I for one am through with him. The Video has ALREADY been changed and for many reasons. All his babbling is for nothing.

[raehl]

- I'll never be able to completely counter the effect of the irrational use of the video
- I may not even get the opportunity to counter it at all.
- The video has no redeeming value to justify even risking it.

It's not insecurity, it's a rational prediction of possible consequences, how much damage will be caused, and how much of that damage can be overcome. But why put yourself in a position where damage needs to be repaired when it's much easier and less risky to just prevent the damage from ever occuring?

Again, you have yet to come up with ONE reason why the existence of the video is better than it not existing at all.

- Chris

[raehl]

My ego says he just has something against me personally, but doesn't want to perpetuate what essentially amounts to insults (anxiety over insecurity? Please.) under his "real" name.

But that's just my me-centric mentality at work. He could just be a regular passenger on the short bus.

- Chris

[Jenadin]

Well gentlemen, does this mean you guys are presently done predicting the future of chaotic events that you do not understand the initial conditions of? :D

[raehl]

That didn't make any sense.

And don't end sentences with a preposition.

- Chris

[Jenadin]

Translation:
"I didn't understand that so it must be nonsense
because I know everything"




:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[shartley]

How I see it…

US “The Earth is round.”

HIM “No it isn’t.”

US “Yes it is, and here is proof.” (long list of things)

HIM “So you are saying it is round because YOU say so?”

US “No, we offered proof, but you refuse to see it.”

HIM “See, you are wrong.”

US “What? Listen, here is the proof again.. “ (another long list of facts)

HIM “So let me understand this… you are insecure that the world is flat, so you argue to make yourself feel better?”

US “Not at all. Didn’t you read any of it?”

HIM “You offer no proof. You are wrong.”

This continues for about 50 cycles….

US “I am sick of this, you go ahead and think what you want.”

HIM “AHHHH So you give up and admit I am right! You concede that you don’t know anything and that you were wrong from the start.”

Yeah, that makes sense. Can anyone say "brick"? :rolleyes:

[hitech]

He just wants to have the last word. Let him and he will go away.

[raehl]

Originally posted by Jenadin
Translation:
"I didn't understand that so it must be nonsense
because I know everything"

Bingo! Maybe there's some hope for you after all.

- Chris

[Jenadin]

I picture Shartley as an overweight crumudgeon in a
dirty tee shirt typing on a filthy keyboard next to a mess of pizza boxes and cigarette butts in his moms basement.
Only he can hear the clatter of padded footsteps down the rickety stairs and his mom reminding him in a horse voice "Don't forget to take a bath baby, we're going to grandmas this weekend"

Also , feel free to remind us all again in another lengthy (and hopelessly boring) post that "you are done with me".

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by Jenadin
I picture Shartley as an overweight crumudgeon in a
dirty tee shirt typing on a filthy keyboard next to a mess of pizza boxes and cigarette butts in his moms basement.
Only he can hear the clatter of padded footsteps down the rickety stairs and his mom reminding him in a horse voice "Don't forget to take a bath baby, we're going to grandmas this weekend"

Also , feel free to remind us all again in another lengthy (and hopelessly boring) post that "you are done with me".

Jenadin must have majored in argumentitive fallacies in college.

I don't think you have made one cogent or relevant arguement yet. Attack the arguement not the person, oh wait you can't... you have no premise.

[BTAutoMag]

i cant wait till shartly see this. i minght even read his next insanly long post to see what he says

[HoppysMag]

Jenadin- you have the intelligence of a squirrel. No wait thats an insult to the squirrel....

And as for shartly he is one of most respected AO'ers. I suggest you slither your self back to PBN or whatever crap hole of a forum you crawled out from.

[Jenadin]

"Jenadin- you have the intelligence of a squirrel. No wait thats an insult to the squirrel....

And as for shartly he is one of most respected AO'ers."




I would think you'de have spelled his name correctly
if that were true. Hmmmmmm....you got mine right, even capitalized it!!! Nice!!

[BTAutoMag]

Originally posted by Jenadin
"Jenadin- you have the intelligence of a squirrel. No wait thats an insult to the squirrel....

And as for shartly he is one of most respected AO'ers."




I would think you'de have spelled his name correctly
if that were true. Hmmmmmm....you got mine right, even capitalized it!!! Nice!!

i totaly agree

[BTAutoMag]

i should probably say that im agreeing with the shartley is respected part;)

[cphilip]

Alright! The parties over. Turning into a flame contest. Too bad you got this one closed. For a while at least...so tempers can cool down...