Please tell me why this won't work.

[Tyril]

Hey guys,

Something was bugging me today about the autoresponse frame. Basically, it boiled down to: why is the idea limited to only two shots per pull? Now, a couple of obvious possibilities come to mind... like back when it was developed C02 was the primary propellant in use, and it simply did not support any ROF attainable when the marker would fire >2 times/trigger cycle. Also, perhaps it would be too complicated, too prone to failure. Either way, I wonder why the idea never caught on with any other paintball manufacturers; you know, those that lack AGD's morals about overwhelming firepower? I have been unable to find any other company releasing any type of mechanical AR-like design. I tossed the idea around a bit during math, and came up with a simple way to have mechanical three-round-burst in a trigger frame. My "grand" ;) design is basically just a rod attached to the trigger that spins a wheel which moves the sear three times per complete cycle. The wheel consists of two discs joined by crosspieces that trip the sear. (The number of times per revolution could be timed and changed by adding crosspieces)

[See pic]


Now, obviously, there exist quite a few problems with this design, the least of which is the lack of a clutch-like mechanism on the wheel... To prevent the sear from "riding" the cross pieces instead of being simply triggered by them. However, simply look at any kind of schematics of the ReTro valve, and you see that AGD (and others) would be most certainly up to the challenge of making such an idea practical.

Admittedly, I do not know that much about mags, having purchased my first (mostly stock mini) only a few days before, and so I might be overlooking some key essential. Ehh... well, the forum is for discussion, and I thought why not throw this out for the experts to take a look at.
Thanks!

*Disclaimers
I do not believe I've made a "breakthrough" or any nonesense like that... just am curious as why this would/wouldn't work.

The base pic was shamelessly ripped off of AGD's AR frame patent ;) http://airsoldier.com/~haveblue/tech/patents/5280778.pdf
/Disclaimers*

[Tyril]

Grr... sorry about the large pic... could have sworn I cut that down....

-Mike

[joeyjoe367]

I kinda understand what you're tryin' to do here. I think it'd be great, however one thing that I thought was kinda stupid about the A-R frame was that you didn't have a choice to turn it on/off. ONce it's bolted on, it's pull/release shots for the whole day.

If there was some sort of, "clutch disengage" or something that would turn it off, that'd be awesome.

Hell, I"d get one :)

[speedballbanks]

here ya go so people can see i see it fine though my resolution 1280*1024 so i think i am diong fine. but here is the smaller pic and excellent idea.

[athomas]

First we have to understand what work is involved in the trigger pull.

The automag trigger pull is about 4 lbs at about 1/8". To change the trigger pull to 1/16" using a leverage change you would increase the pressure required to 8 lbs. To decrease the trigger pull to 2 lbs you would have to increase the trigger pull distance to 1/4".

To add a wheel to increase the number of sear actuations you would need the required trigger pull distance for each actuation. ie: if you wanted three shots per trigger pull, you would require a 3/8" trigger pull. To increase the sear actuations without increasing the length of the pull, you would effectively shorten the length of each pull and increase the lbs per pull. The pull pressure would be 12 lbs.

To have a trigger that shoots on both the pull and the release, you have to have enough spring pressure to actuate the sear on the return. Therefore, you are pulling against the sear and the spring. eg: For three shots on the pull and three shots on the return with a 1/8" trigger, you would have at least a 24 lb trigger pull.

As you can see this is not really practical. The best thing you can do to increase your rate of fire is to practice using the trigger you have.

[sniper1rfa]

that is the rough equiv of an mp-10 and any other select fire weapon. the only problem is that the trigger goes from 7-1/2 lb to 8 to 9 lbs then back in semi mode.

[athomas]

It is true on mag because of the constant forces on the on/off pin and bolt. This results in a constant force on the sear assembly. As a lever, work is done in in-lbs. The relationship of work to distance remains the same. If we lengthen the pull, the lbs required are reduced. If we shorten the pull, the lbs required are increased.

[max-mag]

i agree....

this is why trigger frames like the Benchmark 2x finger are very light, but the pull is about 1" from front to back, and the stock 'mag trigger is stiff, but short.

wouldn't tension on the seat caused bu=y how hard the bolt is pressing against it affect how stiff the pull is also, make a 'mag that is lower pressure and it's practical, or we could just have 24# triggers

[max-mag]

i agree...
thats y triggers like Benchmark 2x triggers are very light, but so horribly long, and mag trigger is stiff, but short, but all mag triggers cant be any longer than how wide the edge of the bolt it, you may be able to pull the trigger furhter, but it is only necisary to pull the trigger that far.

the pressure pushing the bolt against the sear has to do with the stifness of the triger to, since the sear hits the bolt

[athomas]

That's exactly it. The pressure on the bolt plays a major part in the pressure felt by the trigger. The new level 10 bolt and power tip mod will help solve this problem when it is released. The trigger pull will be really light.