Ir3 On Crack!!! [Archive] - Automags.Org Online Forums

Cristobal

05-16-2002, 10:52 PM

Not that I'm doubting the capabilities of the angel with the cops sensor -- the clips are quite impressive -- but I'm not sure those 200 rounds were shot all at once like it would seem.

I may be wrong, but the reason I'm wondering about this is that it the shadows look quite different between the clips. Look at the brick wall in the first clip -- its in bright sunlight. In the last clip, its in the shade, although the very end of the wall is in the sun. Something changed between the clips, and not just the shadow from the camera guy.

EDIT: Oh, and they're called "sticky" because that's what PBNation calls its "classic" threads

EDIT2: From reading the rest of this thread (now 3 pages) it seems clear that it was mistakenly implied that 200 rounds were fired in the recorded clips, so my previous comment is moot.

Jack_Dubious

05-16-2002, 11:12 PM

Im not doubting the Angel or anything...but the Emag video just seemed a little more impressive. They should redo the video without any edits and just show the Angel empty a hopper at full auto.

JDub

X-Plosive

05-16-2002, 11:57 PM

ok well that clip is about 4.5 seconds. WDP state that they emptied 200 balls in that video clip. That clip is broken up into 3 different parts, but the sound seems to flow pretty naturally(maybe my speakers suck).Let's say the HALO holds 180 balls, they claim to be shooting 20 bps, that would mean the shortest possible time for the film would be 9 seconds. I would like to see another video with a mounted camera showing the string of paint being fired, without all these little snippets. Watching the Angel reminded me of the Fast and The Furious commercial, little flashes here and there.

Army

05-17-2002, 12:19 AM

I edited your childish behavior. If a member does not understand how to manipulate the site, I expect all of you to be helpful, not act like spoiled brats.

An apology to him and AO is in order. Army

AGD

05-17-2002, 01:39 AM

IR3 on crack??

Here is a screen shot of the IR3 video showing the wave file. The green marker is one second in from the beginning and the red marker is one second after the green marker.

Someone please count the shots for me and tell me how many per second it's doing.....

Just wanting the facts,

AGD

Potatoboy

05-17-2002, 01:41 AM

I count 15-16....

And Tom, there's thing new thing called Windows Explorer, it works a lot better than File Manager....
:D

Edit: You had to go and change the picture on me. Ok, so you use Explorer too.
;)

AGD

05-17-2002, 01:47 AM

Here is the wave file for those that would like to explore it themselves. I could be doing something wrong here.

AGD

ps explorer sucks

***AGD edit** On second thought they own the video and the audio so maybe it's not a good idea to post the wave file here.

Butterfingers

05-17-2002, 01:49 AM

Anything microsoft sucks.

Snooky

05-17-2002, 02:29 AM

yeah it wasn't as impressive as the emag video in my opinion. i would also like to see one with a stationary cam and a string of paint.

cledford

05-17-2002, 02:35 AM

Well it looks like it on! The WDP fans are looking ready to take on the Emag for the top-spot regarding BPS.

I suggest both produce videos of their guns firing at 20bps, then do it AGAIN over a chrono.

I bet the angel is seeing shoot down...

-Calvin

Manuel_FZR

05-17-2002, 02:44 AM

I posted this video long ago in the "Level10 Demo from HALO guys" Thread ;)
But i also think, the angel sounds slower than the EMag ... am I right? Also i counted 16bps (in Tom´s diagram)...
Can someone post a curve of the EMag or EMag compared with Angel? I´m thinking of two different diagrams showing both one second of rapid fire.
Another point: Do it over the chrono ... to look at shootdown.

Mango

05-17-2002, 06:49 AM

*sigh*....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This place is rediculous...

Dragoon

05-17-2002, 07:36 AM

Originally posted by SprayingMango
*sigh*....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This place is rediculous...

??
Why so?

Douglas.

Hexis

05-17-2002, 07:42 AM

TK if you get some time can you also post a sound breakdown like that for the emag @20bps vid? If we are going to examine the angel vid we should do the same for the emag vid.

Arch Angel

05-17-2002, 07:45 AM

oooh... look all the lovely hits.

Arch Angel

05-17-2002, 07:56 AM

Via Ken (because his account doesn't work):

Please stop the madness! I posted the .mov file on purpose, and one purpose only. To show the C.O.P.S. sensor working at F/A.

This is not meant to be a BPS issue as we all know, the EMAG can cycle at over 20bps.

It was not my intention to say or have people say or even compare ROF between these two markers. Again, it is only to show the effectiveness of the C.O.P.S. sensor.

Any inference to the fact that the video was doctored is childish. Also any reference to 200 balls was my reference per telephone conversation w/WDP. There was no actual ball count made.

Angel users are there to work together, not to bash each other.

**disclaimer** Anything said in this post is my (Ken's) words, and no one else's. Thank you for your time.

Mango

05-17-2002, 08:11 AM

Arch: sorry about how this turned out, I did not expect this to happen at all. :confused:

bofh

05-17-2002, 08:21 AM

BPS or no BPS....

Where's his mask? :) The camera man has a mask right?

The video is edited, the clips are out of order and it looks like there is time elapsed between them. (in the last two cuts, look at the bucket and the wall, in the first one it's "painted" red, in the second, it's not.)

All that's shown is that the ir3 can put together ~20 round strings without breaks...

All that aside, What's the video supposed to show/prove/demostrate? Besides of course, the ir3 being very fast and pretty. <= not sarcasm.

Thordic

05-17-2002, 08:38 AM

Ok, two things.

First off, god, you people really are harsh. You make fun of the Trekkies, but you are just as bad. They walk around preaching about WIlliam Shatner, and you guys are the same about AGD. Not that AGD doesnt deserve a good repution, but there IS life beyond AGD as well.

John wasn't telling you to go out and buy an IR3. He never even said he wanted you to like the gun. All he was doing was showing one shooting hella fast.

When Tom posts a video of an Emag going fast, you all go "Ooooh, I want one!" "Man, thats fast!" and "Wow, COOL!"

When John posts a video of an Angel shooting around 17 BPS (I counted 17 in a 1 second clip i took), you all start saying the video is faked, etc.

What ever happened to "Wow, thats pretty fast, awesome."?

:rolleyes:

ANd BOFH, what did the videos Tom posted prove? That the gun can shoot fast without chopping. Angels are somewhat "known to chop" too compared to some other electros.

Lets use the same rules for AGD and WDP, huh?

Cha0tic

05-17-2002, 08:44 AM

couldn't have said it better myself thordic. you guys are acting like little kids. have some appriciation for other companies work. WDP came out with the cops sensor and they wanted to show everyone that it worked at high rates of fire. so what if shots are otu of order or scenes are cut, the purpose was not to start a competition. it was just to show a fast angel...

dansim

05-17-2002, 08:49 AM

wdp rocks period i cant see th video but man ill take an angel over an emag anyway cause angels have already proved themselves relible to me and most tourney players let see the emag prove it self and maybe ill change my mind(still though no chops lets see emags do that right now)

cphilip

05-17-2002, 08:51 AM

Mostly I agree with you thordic...it's a nice marker and very fast. Now the "however"! ;)

Except for the fact that the marker was set on 20 bps and DID NOT do it. Odd..Why? And if it DID NOT do it why release it without explaining that if you set this maker at 20 bps it will not produce 20 bps? And lead everyone to believe that it did...they clearly ment you to trust them that it is 20 bps and so thats missleading. On purpose or not.

Hexis

05-17-2002, 08:56 AM

I just said it would be nice to see a whole hopper empty through the gun without any edits, like in the HALO demo vid that featured both an E-Mag and an Angel. I also suggested that we look at the E-Mag video @20BPS with the same level of detail as we are examining this new Angel video.

This Angel video is indeed impressive. It's kind of scary that FA may be an avalible on a standard gun. That's about the last thing I would want to get hit by. I appreciate AGD's stance that FA is used in very limited cases, for demonstration purposes only.

BartManSr

05-17-2002, 08:57 AM

Arch Angel, your right! Glad to see someone standing up with an objective view point.

Manuel_FZR

05-17-2002, 09:15 AM

Yes ... post a diagram of the Emag 20bps ... I really want to see this, if this are really 20bps.

Thordic

05-17-2002, 09:20 AM

Phil -

It's fairly well known that Angel's BPS counter is a little odd. For example, when it records the shooters BPS, it takes the fastest time between two balls in a string, and does an estimate based off that ONE instance.

I figure maybe something similar is goin on here.

Who cares if the gun can actually hit 20 BPS? Its not legal to use.

cphilip

05-17-2002, 09:24 AM

I see what your saying thanks for the technical on it Thordic.

It is on heck of a nice string of shots anyway. I don't want to be on the business end of 17 bps thats for sure! If you were you would be glad it was off a little bit towords that direction! :eek:

Webmaster

05-17-2002, 09:26 AM

Everyone just needs to calm down!

Dont you all know that the Metric system measurement of BPS is different than the English/Standard system measurement of BPS?

Im sure that is 20 Metric BPS... coure the emag shoots 20 Standard BPS.

bofh

05-17-2002, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by Thordic
What ever happened to "Wow, thats pretty fast, awesome."?
:rolleyes:
I said it was pretty and fast. BUt, there were however's tagged on.

Originally posted by Thordic
ANd BOFH, what did the videos Tom posted prove? That the gun can shoot fast without chopping. Angels are somewhat "known to chop" too compared to some other electros.

The Emag videos I saw, (not the lastest ones) showed that is can do a whole hopper, fast, without breaks. The second showed the HALO is pretty dang fast. Amazingly enough, the speed that TK said it went, it actually went. (I haven't check the recent, but I did check the old one.)

I was not aware that Angels have a rep for ball-chop. We've already seen an Angel, burn thru a whole hopper in one cut at a very, very fast speed, (I didn't count, but faster than I can pull, I'm sure) without any breaks. (in the most recent HALO video) I'd assume that that didn't have COPS on it.

Originally posted by Thordic
Lets use the same rules for AGD and WDP, huh?
Sure. The rules haven't changed, once you see a video or picture or any data, that has been mis-represented. We'll be jumping just as much on Tom, if not more.

bofh

05-17-2002, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by cphilip
I don't want to be on the business end of 17 bps thats for sure!

I'm not wholly fond of even 10bps bearing down on me either. :0

steveg

05-17-2002, 09:35 AM

Im sure that is 20 Metric BPS... coure the emag shoots 20 Standard BPS.

It could be imperial BPS instead of US BPS after all the
imperial gallon is bigger than the US gallon

synreal

05-17-2002, 10:16 AM

haloemag20 waveform screenshots

<img src="http://www.synreal.net/stuff/emag_20bps.jpg">

<img src="http://www.synreal.net/stuff/emag_20bps_2.jpg">

Hexis

05-17-2002, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by dansim
wdp rocks period i cant see th video but man ill take an angel over an emag anyway cause angels have already proved themselves relible to me and most tourney players let see the emag prove it self and maybe ill change my mind(still though no chops lets see emags do that right now)

Funny, you can see an E-Mag doing a clamed 20bps here:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36025

This vid shows off the new HALO-B on both an E-Mag and an Angel. Both guns are seen shooting most of the hopper (as much as the HALO can shoot and feed correctly) without any edits. The E-Mag is at 20bps, the Angel is at 13bps. Though I think we need to double check that if we are going to scrutinize the Angel at 20bps video.

cphilip

05-17-2002, 10:22 AM

there ya go! thanks syn.

To be fair lets call it a clean 19 bps in the second interval. Pretty darn close huh?

synreal

05-17-2002, 10:28 AM

yup, and that was just grabbing the first second that the marker was upto speed, i'm sure that i could find a one second interval that contained 20 'clean' shots.

first round at 0.0 and 20th at 1.0 seems like 20 bps to me though

Thordic

05-17-2002, 10:31 AM

Aha, there you go, AGD was claming 20 BPS and only got 19 BPS :rolleyes:

At those levels, does it really matter that much?

There is one thing I'd like to point out though.

Look at Tom's graph, and look at Syn's graph. The Emag graph shows extremely regular shots. The Angel has a few irregularities in the shooting sound.

It might mean nothing, but I found it interesting. Recharge rates coming into effect, perhaps?

Hexis

05-17-2002, 10:36 AM

That irregularity could very well be the COPS working perfectly. If that's not a HALO-B on the Angel they could have had slight problems feeding at 20bps. If that's the case I think the demo is more impressive. If that's the case, we are seeing the technology on the Angel work exactly as advertised. That's very cool.

RobAGD

05-17-2002, 10:51 AM

Actually you count the first trigger pull in a string for timing reason, that IS 20 shots in 1 second.

And yes those blips in the Angel wav form are the cops working as it should.

BTW - for those of you that dont really pay attention, take a look look at the pics you see on teh wen and in magazines of angels, and look at how many have paint ozzingout of the portingon the barrel and the breach area. They DO chop paint it for some strange reason something the users have a hard time recalling.

-Robert

AGD

05-17-2002, 11:01 AM

I think I will defend WDP here and say that I would find it really unusal that they would release a video and claim 20 bps when it wasn't. I will SPECULATE that perhaps someone down the line got that idea in their mind, made the claim and it stuck.

WDP just does not make big marketing mistakes and to do this would be a huge one. I buy the idea that it was a high speed demo of the COPS system and nothing more.

If AO is picking on it that was because this was in response to a request I put out for ANY video of a paintball gun at 20 bps. The response was "here it is!" so it got scrutinized.

Bravo nice job on the COPS it looks like it's working well.

I am still waiting to see a 20 bps vid of any gun.

AGD

krafty

05-17-2002, 11:05 AM

Geeze.... OK. According to Cool Edit Pro (a handy tool I happen to have here at work) I took the audio, which was trimmed to the beginning and end of the string of shots.

Total time: 4.00 seconds
total recorded beats: 74
beats per second (average): 18.5

So... 74 shots were taken by the IR3 in that video over the course of 4 seconds. Since it's equipped with COPS, we can assume each shot meant 1 paintball. Looking at the wave form, it's obvious that the COPS is at work, because there are several instances where there's a longer than average delay between shots.

So, it was probably set at 20bps, but it's effective rate of fire was 18.5bps due to the speed balls were fed. Makes me believe that the HALO's reported 18bps feed rate is pretty darn accurate. :)

(edit) Anyone that really believes that was 200 rounds needs their head examined. :) That would be 50bps!!!

Arch Angel

05-17-2002, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by RobAGD
BTW - for those of you that dont really pay attention, take a look look at the pics you see on teh wen and in magazines of angels, and look at how many have paint ozzingout of the portingon the barrel and the breach area. They DO chop paint it for some strange reason something the users have a hard time recalling.

-Robert

I would very much like for you to send me a link to these images featuring IR3s.

Manuel_FZR

05-17-2002, 11:21 AM

Thanks synreal!

Kaiser Bob

05-17-2002, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by dansim
wdp rocks period i cant see th video but man ill take an angel over an emag anyway cause angels have already proved themselves relible to me and most tourney players let see the emag prove it self and maybe ill change my mind(still though no chops lets see emags do that right now)

Its posts like this that perpetuate the bickering thats going on here. Or is it reflecting the attitude of the posters? Well, either way, this AGD vs. WDP is wholly unnecessary. I mean its been conceded by all that both guns are high end, both have their stong points, and both have limitations of some sort. Im sorry, neither the Emag nor the IR3 are Godlike and infallible. However, they both do a pretty darn good job of slinging a ball of paint 300fps. Keeping that in mind, can we please stay away from the 'My gun is better than yours, yours sux cause of A, B, and C and mine rules cause of X, Y, and Z'?

DiRTyBuNNy

05-17-2002, 11:25 AM

well..if you really want an instance..look at Brahim Estaphan's angel during the World Cup Traumahead Sportz video..that suckers got paint leaking all over from the breach..and no..it's not from a gun hit when the paint is in front of and below the breach....

dansim

05-17-2002, 11:37 AM

man all you haters need to step off yo

Manuel_FZR

05-17-2002, 11:37 AM

I see no competiton between this two gus (the EMag and the ir3).
For me, the Angel is the high end gun. It´s probably one of the best (if not the best), competitivest and greatest guns ever made.
Also the EMag ... but my heart is with Mags, so I prefere the EMag - only personal preferences.
But it´s also a pleasure to shoot an ir3 (like I did last league day).

BartManSr

05-17-2002, 11:41 AM

Kaiser Bob, I wonder if you would of said anything at all if it was the other way around.

Of course were in the Mag forum here, I'm just trying to be objective and fair. Not saying your not.

BTAutoMag

05-17-2002, 11:43 AM

i guess the pentium 4 proccesor they have in it didnt make it too much faster

BlackVCG

05-17-2002, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by Arch Angel

I would very much like for you to send me a link to these images featuring IR3s.

He never said IR3s.

KEN CRANE

05-17-2002, 11:46 AM

OK FI 5.16.2002 FIRST READ THIS !!!

This is a short video, with a brand new ir3 using the cops sensor. The marker is set on full auto (20 bps) and Frazer is testing adjustments at the factory for the sensor. Zero ball breaks and yes, that was just 200 rds.

NOW WHERE DID I SAY OR TRY AND COMPARE THE IR3 TO TOMS EMAG.WHERE DID I SAY THE IR3 WAS SHOOTING AT 20 BPS?I SAID AND I WILL QUOTE"THE MARKER IS SET ON FULL AUTO(20BPS)AND FRAZER IS TESTING ADJUSTMENTS AT THE FACTORY FOR THE COPS SENSOR"I WAS SHOWING THIS ON ANGEL-OWNERS.COM FOR ANGEL OWNERS WANTING TO SEE THE EFFECTIVNESS OF THE COPS SENSOR.NOTHING ELSE!AND IF THE STATMENT AND YES THAT WAS 200 RDS CONFUSED THE ISSUE THATS MY FAULT .NO WHERE DID I SAY 20 BPS PER SECOND.MAN SORRY FOR THE HYPE BUT GEEEEZ.THIS LINK WAS STARTED ON ANGEL-OWNERS.COM AND WAS DRAGGED TO THIS FOURM AND SHOULDNT HAVE CAUSED THIS MUCH EXCITEMENT!TOM YOUR EXPLANATION IS CORRECT THIS WAS GIVEN TO ME TO USE AND TOTALY BLOWN OUT OF PROPORTION.ALSO YOU HAVE SOME VERY INTELLIGENT POSTERS ON THIS FOURM BECUSE ONE OF THEM HIT THE ACTUAL NUMBERS NUTZ ON! LOL KEN CRANE,ALSO I WOULD HAVE RESPONDED SOONER BUT MY ACCOUNT DIDNT WORK AND I HAD TO RE-SIGN UP

Cha0tic

05-17-2002, 11:47 AM

arch angel, i think rob was reffeing to paint oozing out of regular angels in pictures, as there aren't a ton of ir3 pics showing acutal game footage in magazines. i just bought an APG a few days ago. in the june issue, on page 72 at the bottom. there is a picture of an aftershock player with paint coming out of every port in the barrel. i'm sure i can find more if i look.

BTAutoMag

05-17-2002, 11:48 AM

whoa calm down buddy. you can get baned for yelling like that

dansim

05-17-2002, 11:50 AM

you do know who ken crane is right bt automag
? i really doubt hes getting banned

KEN CRANE

05-17-2002, 11:54 AM

sorry i wasnt shouting.at my office i need cap locks on for the forms i fill out.that was in no way meant as yelling sorry.and dan sorry to break your bubble but i am nobody.just like everyone else.now come and pick up your gun!!!!

Arch Angel

05-17-2002, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by Cha0tic
arch angel, i think rob was reffeing to paint oozing out of regular angels in pictures, as there aren't a ton of ir3 pics showing acutal game footage in magazines.

I know what he was referring to, I know the photos too. But I was asking him to find a photo of an IR3 with paint oozing out.

He said Angels, never specifically stating which series. So thus I'm asking him to show me that series with the paint oozing. It is an Angel...

dansim

05-17-2002, 12:06 PM

i dont think he relized you were a tech i was not stating that your god(i am) :D anyway ill be there tommoorow to play if its not raining and reffing sunday

BTAutoMag

05-17-2002, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by dansim
you do know who ken crane is right bt automag
? i really doubt hes getting banned

nope... accualy i didnt know who tom kaye was untill i was a member for a month. could someone inform me?

MantisMag

05-17-2002, 12:19 PM

you people are being unduly harsh. this video was not made specifically for us. they were showing off the COPS on an angel forum. yes the "200 balls" part is misleading. actually it's just wrong. honest mistake. i too would have liked to see a full hopper emptied. but oh well. maybe next time.

the point is it is shooting fast and the COPS is working perfectly. tom displayed this quite nicely with that waveform. you can clearly see the gaps where the COPS kept the angel from firing. i think that somebody should take that picture to the angel forum and add some arrows pointing to the gaps showing where the COPS was operating. the video only shows that there's no chops or breaks. i couldn't hear those gaps. the picture gives a nice illustration. anyone can just claim that the COPS was working if it didn't have to do anything. but the diagram clearly shows that the COPS did have to step in a few times and stop the angel from firing.

and the fact that it came close to 20 bps even with those gaps means to me that it probably would have hit 20 bps if it could have been fed that fast. so there ya go. i said it. i think the angel could have hit 20 bps. :eek:

BTAutoMag

05-17-2002, 12:22 PM

i noticed you said "could have" instead of "can"

cphilip

05-17-2002, 12:23 PM

Listen carefully to this Angel clip (http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/ir3c.wav)

IS NOT 20 bps! Sounds sick realy at the end... But still fast huh?

cphilip

05-17-2002, 12:34 PM

So let all agree this is one fast marker.

But ken and all you Angel guys..realy did you not expect AGD nuts to crow if they could find a Emag clip to beat it? And they did. Anytime something is put on the Net to shos the prowess of a particualr product its subject to competion and challenge. You gotta realize that. And if the emag could not have beat the pants off it you would not have heard any of us bring it up at all. You know what, if that were the case, YOU would hAve been the first to bring it up! Admit it.

All fun and competiton. :D

Arch Angel

05-17-2002, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by cphilip
All fun and competiton. :D

But see that's the thing you're failing to realize. WDP did not graciously give us the clip to put on our site for means of competition. In fact, it was never the intention of competition.

Rather it was a clip that showed the IR3, FA and C.O.P.S. in action. The Automags.org forum has decided to turn this 10-12 second clip into a nit-picking battle.

But who am I to complain... It's very exciting for me to have my site take so many hits from your site. Not to my attention ironic that an IR3 thread (related) is toping the general thread on the Automag's Owners Group.

A bit ironic, in it's own special way. Keep the hits flowing everyone, I'm in my glory.

KEN CRANE

05-17-2002, 12:59 PM

if that was my intention yes,but as i stated,i posted in an angel fourm,never did i bring auto mag into the mix.never did i try and compare the 2 so whats next?

bofh

05-17-2002, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by Arch Angel
Rather it was a clip that showed the IR3, FA and C.O.P.S. in action. The Automags.org forum has decided to turn this 10-12 second clip into a nit-picking battle.

Ahem... it was 4.5 seconds. :D (I know, nit-picky)

Mango

05-17-2002, 01:07 PM

I just wanted to show everyone on this forum the clip. I never intended it to turn into what it did. I think I hit a sensitive spot with the AO members huh?

cphilip

05-17-2002, 01:09 PM

Sure I know that Ken, But it's on the net. So it's public now. We are just having some fun with it all. We thank you for putting it out there. It's realy quite impressive realy. Hey I would love to HAVE an angel too. That certainly doesn't turn anybody off to one. But you know we are gonna brag some if we get a chance. ;)

cphilip

05-17-2002, 01:11 PM

Spray we are just compairing things that we never will use anyway.

Hey Ken email webby about your account problem.

Arch Angel

05-17-2002, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by cphilip
But you know we are gonna brag some if we get a chance. ;)

Well philip, now you can brag about your community being our #2 referral URL. Come on AO members, you didn't settle for #2 on PGI's TOP 100, don't settle for #2 on my statistics!!!

AGD

05-17-2002, 01:24 PM

Arch and Ken,

You both know that AO and myself personally hold no ill will for you guys or the forum. Forum "wars" are all the rage right now just ask the Trekies! :)

The Angel is the acknowleged leader of the pack. Good marketing strategy means WDP completely ignores everyone else below them because to say anything gives the 2nd place guys more credit. WDP is doing their job well.

The underdogs best marketing strategy is go keep firing volleys at the top of the hill until they get a response. It's the "we are tough enough to pick a fight with you!" attitude that makes the underdog position so attractive.

I think everyone knows who fits into what catagory here so please don't take it wrong if we play our underdog roll to the hilt. I would expect that we will see more comparative threads between the two companies.

Thanks for posting here to clear things up.

AGD

cphilip

05-17-2002, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by Arch Angel

Well philip, now you can brag about your community being our #2 referral URL. Come on AO members, you didn't settle for #2 on PGI's TOP 100, don't settle for #2 on my statistics!!!

Good call!

I think we are up by 66 votes right now on the top 100 thing. I think we got the problems solved. People did not know how to vote! We seem to ahve been aflicted with DPPF (Dufus Paintball Player factor :) )we were way out "hitting" them but votes were not counting. Looks good now as hits are close to the votes today.

OK guys you heard the man. Hit that site for the man!

And we will not settle for 2nd anytime...On anything!

:p

Jonno06

05-17-2002, 02:52 PM

lol,Ken,you said BPS PER SECOND,but the BPS already implies(and means),balls PER SECOND,so you didnt even have to say BPS per sec0nd....

who is ken crane?

why do you people care?

KEN CRANE

05-17-2002, 02:55 PM

WHATEVER

Mango

05-17-2002, 02:56 PM

:rolleyes:

cphilip

05-17-2002, 03:01 PM

There's another second of our life we will never get back....

:rolleyes:

Arch Angel

05-17-2002, 03:04 PM

Well it was only a matter of time before the maturity level went down to zero.

Shocked it went 3 pages.

cphilip

05-17-2002, 03:13 PM

Cristobal

05-17-2002, 03:40 PM

WOW... I just got back here and read through the rest of the thread since my post on the first page :eek:

It seems this little video really hit on a hot topic, coming as it did on the heals of the emag/halo-b video. I think a lot of the controversy comes from the mistaken comparison between the two. Its quite clear now that the cops video was neither an answer nor a challenge to the emag/halo, nor even filmed in the same style... but rather like spraying mango said at the start, a demonstration of a really cool technology. And as has been pointed out from the analysis of the sound clips, the cops device works quite well indeed!

I've gone back and edited my previous post to make it clear I was impressed with the angle's performance and note that the 200 round question was a misunderstanding. Wouldn't want any of you angel guys to think me one of those childish people:D The only thing I've got against the angel is the same thing I've got against the emag -- its way too expensive for my limited budget!

I'd also like to thank WDP et al for producing the video and making it available, and spraying mango for posting the link to it. Even if it has caused some controversy, the technical discussion that resulted has been interesting to say the least.

Kaiser Bob

05-17-2002, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by BartManSr
Kaiser Bob, I wonder if you would of said anything at all if it was the other way around.

Of course were in the Mag forum here, I'm just trying to be objective and fair. Not saying your not.

Yes I would because WDP, WGP, AGD or whatever, the whole 'My gun is surperior to yours' nonsence tends to wear thin after a while. I have decided... my next gun is a Spyder darnit!

Rooster

05-17-2002, 08:15 PM

Heh, this is very interesting, both Angel owners and Mag owners getting defensive. Its nice to see its e-mag and angel back and forth, and nothing else.

It won't be long until AGD has a strong second in high-end sales, and not long after that until they have the top spot;).

Mango

05-17-2002, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by Cristobal

I'd also like to thank WDP et al for producing the video and making it available, and spraying mango for posting the link to it. Even if it has caused some controversy, the technical discussion that resulted has been interesting to say the least.

Spoken like a true gentelman and paintball enthusiast!!! Thank you Cristobal! :D :D

RobAGD

05-17-2002, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Arch Angel

I would very much like for you to send me a link to these images featuring IR3s.

Humm I dont belive I said IR3 I said Angel witch to some extent covers teh Ir3 and let just say Todd Martinez, Marti Gras Open 16" barrel planted 12" into the mud ?

Humm Look at many many of the pics in Facefull with paint dripping out of barrels.

To say the Angel dosent break paint is like saying it never rains in Seattle. It happens, and people dont like to admit it.

Dont be blinded to the short comings of your prefered marker, I am not.

I really wasn't taking this to a performance area or attacking WDP. The fact that the video shows the COPS system working and what is can do when set up correctly is great.

Would I like to see a video of an Angel actually spitting balls out the end of the tube at 20FA, Sure. Will it happen ? I dont personally think so. Maybe with the HALO B there is a chance.

BTW - Ken Crane is a Tech for WDP, one of thier best tournament guys to have around and working on your kit. He will get cut a bit of slack. I am sorry if this thread has caused him some personal issues. Unless Ken completely looses his mind he will always be welcome here as with anyone that is will to have behave and have somewhat rational discussions.

Guys relax, grab a drink and chill the F out :) It's only paintball.

-Robert

Arch Angel

05-17-2002, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by RobAGD
Dont be blinded to the short comings of your prefered marker, I am not.

Blinded? Far from it... I know the Angel chops, there's no such thing as a marker that does not.

But you make the statement of Angels and I merely asked for an Angel photo (IR3 in this case) with the scenario you presented.

The lack of accuracy in your original comment left it open for comment. Seeing that this entire thread is about picking apart intricate comments, I've decided to pick apart yours.

I merely asked for a photo of an IR3 with paint oozing out and I look forward to the email in my inbox with the attached photo.

AGD

05-17-2002, 11:32 PM

Arch, don't take it personaly but since you asked specifically we already had a discussion about this pic. Note the faint drip line at the front of the breach.

http://home.attbi.com/~zo/ir3.jpg

dansim

05-18-2002, 05:19 AM

that could be where he got shot and then wiped as all (most) pros do, or he chopped either way a lil bit of my sould dies every time i see that pic

Butterfingers

05-18-2002, 05:37 AM

This whole controversey could have been a misunderstanding of the original posting on Angelowners.com, like a game of telephone words got twisted around in the transaction.

20 BPS was claimed in the post, 20 BPS was not acheived. Thats the bottom line.

If Tom posted a 20 BPS video that was actually 15 BPS you bet alot of people would be on him too.

dansim

05-18-2002, 05:44 AM

i only counted 19 in the emag burst and 17 for the angel
no i think the said the ir3 was set to 20bpsnot shooting 20bps and since it was editd couldnt it actually have acheived it or did the shooter keep letting go of the trigger?

steveg

05-18-2002, 05:58 AM

It's been said once or twice before but let's repeat it again.

That video was intended as a demonstration of the COPS system

The angel was set to 20BPS FA BECAUSE the HALO classic could NOT keep up.

The stutter and gaps are from the COPS working as it should.
no ball no shot no chop.

Odyssey and AGD have shown that the HALO B can more than keep up with 20BPS FA

It follows that a HALO B on those angels will be able to shoot 20BPS (shootdown is an entirely differant matter!)

Disclaimer: I do not have or even want, an Angel.

Mango

05-18-2002, 06:44 AM

*sigh*

KEN CRANE

05-18-2002, 07:15 AM

alright if it wasnt for the fact that now being a new member i recive email notifications,i would not have been back here to repost.but after seeing what i did i feel i must.oh but hold on i must go fetch something......ok im back, ------- This is a short video, with a brand new ir3 using the cops sensor. The marker is set on full auto (20 bps) and Frazer is testing adjustments at the factory for the sensor. Zero ball breaks and yes, that was just 200 rds. -------

now that you have read this this for the 20gazillinth time,
where did i say the gun is shooting at 20 bps?for those of you that dont know the angel has digitial settings first rate of fire(mrof) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 then we have (cmrof)alright i wont do it again,1-20 but when the pcb is programmed for full auto 20 is the number.so i put 20 in brackets to say full auto was a setting of 20.DID I SAY THAT THE GUN WAS FIRING 20 BALLS PER SECOND? NO!i made a post on our angel fourm angel-owners.com that fraser was shooting the ir3 with cops on fully auto with no ball breaks.and just so you know now the hallo topped out at 18.5 bps due to design.when the spring binds, then gravity takes over then 13 is the number.you have a member that calculated 18.9 i beleive.good job on that one.who gives a flying xxxxx if it fires 15-18 or even 30 ?what i care about is the gun does not break paint between 10 and lets say 13.keep this in mind when the gun blips on what ever test that is done,when you see the blip and say'see it blipped'thats the ball that may have broken or got chopped and it didnt!why becuse the c.o.p.s worked as designed.hey we got back to my original point!!!.now rob i dont want you to think im angry so dont.i dont need any slack cut to me.this is actualy quite funny.now to the hard dirty facts.first off.todds gun firmly planted in the dirt in new orleans.1 wdp didnt take very kindly to seeing the brand new ir3 stuck barrel first in the terra firma.todd answered to that and took the discussion wdp had with him like a man that hes is.BUT AGAIN!somone put that picture added words to it and bam it was the gun.it had nothing to do with the gun.as anyone that saw what happened they would know that it was thrown during an argument on the feild between players and refs.end of story.and please dont beat this up any more its just not worth the fight.ok for my 2 cents.last year at the world cup a simple survey was conducted and at gettysburg and it was determand that over 70 percent of the field was using angels.that is why you see them over and over on the cover of every mag in the world!!! and yes i will take responsib. for that survey.lol
HEY COME AND VISIT US ON TUESDAY(ACTUALY MONDAY) AT ANGEL-OWNERS.COM FOR SOME VERY COOL INFO WE HAVE FOR ALL ANGEL OWNERS. HE HE THE ULTIMATE TEASE!!!!! THANKS FOR YOUR TIME

KEN CRANE

05-18-2002, 07:25 AM

HEY ! one more thing this has not caused me any personal issues here so bring it on.the more hits the better.500plus hits on this subject alone.www.performanceangel.com coming to a theater near you soon.

BEEFYSAUSAGE

05-18-2002, 08:28 AM

Either you Americans eat too much red meat or its just a flash back independance thing about the U.K. being better,
BEEFY.

Arch Angel

05-18-2002, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by AGD
Arch, don't take it personaly but since you asked specifically we already had a discussion about this pic. Note the faint drip line at the front of the breach.

Thanks Tom. That's all I asked for was a picture. I'm glad you were able to provide me one, Rob seemed to have a difficult time.

Thank you.

Rooster

05-18-2002, 09:06 AM

"Either you Americans eat too much red meat or its just a flash back independance thing about the U.K. being better,
BEEFY."

Must be the croc meat talking, becuase we all know AGD is better, it just needs to be proven;).

shartley

05-18-2002, 09:11 AM

Either you Americans eat too much red meat or its just a flash back independance thing about the U.K. being better,
BEEFY.
The last time I looked, Mags are not “America” (As in the United States) and Angels are not the “U.K.” So how a product now encompasses an entire country is beyond me.
:rolleyes:

AGD

05-18-2002, 10:55 AM

Hey Ken, just so you know, getting hacked up is every day life around here. You get it, I get it, the wolf pack here lives to hunt. :):)

AGD

Bonx0007

05-18-2002, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by BEEFYSAUSAGE
Either you Americans eat too much red meat or its just a flash back independance thing about the U.K. being better,
BEEFY.

Do you know how ironic this sounds coming from an Austrailian.;)

Dubstar112

05-18-2002, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by AGD
Hey Ken, just so you know, getting hacked up is every day life around here. You get it, I get it, the wolf pack here lives to hunt. :):)

AGD

Hehe.... Im hungary!!.. But I dont go eat angels or emags... or thier creators for that fact.... I eat paintballs :):D :D :eek: - grosse

cphilip

05-18-2002, 12:56 PM

Hey Ken, just give us one little crack of daylight and we will show you how to make a mountain out of a mole hill! :D

Cristobal

05-18-2002, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by cphilip
...how to make a mountain out of a mole hill! :D

I think that sums up this thread pretty well :cool:

Prairie

05-18-2002, 09:26 PM

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36601

Please read it guys.

RobAGD

05-19-2002, 02:51 AM

Arch - Dude, if you can't managed to find a pic on your own when I give a very particular referance your worthless. That pic Tom posted had been run over here a few times and it had made the round on nation and city. BTW glad to see your not blind.

On the Todd M tent stake - Humm no one here said he threw it for any reason, we were just pointing out the nice bright pink Inferno fill leaking out the breach area.

Ken - dude for the love of god try to break up your run on paragraph :) Love ya dude! First its all caps next its all lower case.....

I still want to know wtf WDP has done to Lanches guns.

-Robert

BEEFYSAUSAGE

05-19-2002, 06:58 AM

Ok now to set a few things straight ...I am Australian and i eat anthing that moves including grubs ,kangaroos,possums,and snakes. we ARE THE BEST and we all know it..........................
As for the rest why do you take everything as a personal blow againt you??
all this thread was about is a freakin fast angel, not to be confused with a freakin fast emag, either way if someone was using either one i would not walk on the field, as getting hit by that much paint would render me a quivering pile of jelly wobbling on the ground and i do not relish the thought.
I use a smartmag and i can shoot at 7 bps max, so from a tourney point of veiw either one of these markers if far beyond what is needed to sustain rates of fire using a semi only fire mode!! (now im goin to be mauled)
Just think abought it.
BEEFY.

Arch Angel

05-19-2002, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by RobAGD
Arch - Dude, if you can't managed to find a pic on your own when I give a very particular referance your worthless. That pic Tom posted had been run over here a few times and it had made the round on nation and city. BTW glad to see your not blind.

Nah, I've had the picture in front of me the entire time. I just wanted to see if you could find it for me.

Although I'm pleased to see you calling a member a "worthless." Spoken like a true administrator on a site. Good stuff!! :rolleyes:

Mango

05-19-2002, 05:29 PM

my sentiments exactly Arch.

dansim

05-19-2002, 05:31 PM

ill second that good job robagd(arch's point not yours)

Kaiser Bob

05-19-2002, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by dansim
ill second that good job robagd(arch's point not yours)

You make yourself sound like a sycophant. Dont make this into a feud when it dosent need to be.

Arch Angel

05-19-2002, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by Kaiser Bob
Dont make this into a feud when it dosent need to be.

Feud? An admin of the site calls a member "worthless." That's pretty out of line if you ask me.

Butterfingers

05-19-2002, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by Arch Angel

Feud? An admin of the site calls a member "worthless." That's pretty out of line if you ask me.

Perhaps he had a bad day. I wouldn't take it personally. However I can understand why you would be upset. I would be too. Especially if sombody called me worthless.

However, I could understand how Rob would be upset after you told him he "had a difficult time" finding pictures for you. That would kinda insult me too.

Arch Angel

05-19-2002, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by Butterfingers
However, I could understand how Rob would be upset after you told him he "had a difficult time" finding pictures for you. That would kinda insult me too.

Butter, I'll give you that... maybe he did get upset. But there's a huge world of difference between telling him he had a difficult time and an administrator of this site calling a member worthless.

I'm eager to see what Rob thinks... I've always known him to be a helpful person.

AGD

05-19-2002, 11:15 PM

Since Rob treats everyone like crap equally I'll let it go this time. Lets move on to more intelligent conversations, we have the best and brightest of both worlds here.

AGD

Thordic

05-20-2002, 07:51 AM

Arch, you started it with him. Everyone knows Rob is rather surly.

To him, everyone is equally worthless. Live with it, and get over it.

The fact that your purposely threw shots at him makes me figure you are just looking for trouble anyway.

KEN CRANE

05-20-2002, 08:06 AM

hey guys do you think we have beat this to death yet?maybe the new supercharged spray additive for the 14 way that allows it to cycle at 65 thousand strokes per second.

Thordic

05-20-2002, 08:15 AM

I think we need some British elves or gnomes or trolls or whatever they have in Britain. Then Angels will shoot even straighter, farther, and around trees.

Mango

05-20-2002, 08:19 AM

mine has fallen in love with me, it told me "looking good..." yesterday. :p

Thordic

05-20-2002, 09:09 AM

You are one sick puppy, John.

MrMag

05-20-2002, 09:21 AM

ok i didnt read the entire thread because of my extremely short attention spand, but i can tell u this for sure.

THE VIDEO WAS EDITED. if u watch the second shot, u can see he is shooting red paint, and there is an ok amount on the wall, but in the third shot he has just begun to make the red paint marks.

Hexis

05-20-2002, 09:27 AM

Really? Edited you say? What clued you in? Maybe the three different camera angles?

http://www.visi.com/~mjb/dogbert1.gif

KEN CRANE

05-20-2002, 09:29 AM

ok my friend ,i will send you over to angel-owners.com for the whole video.will that help clear things up?so again you can watch the video and see how the cops sensor works?in this 20 second or so video you will again see the guys at the factory messing with THE COPS SENSOR with the gun set on full auto. enjoy ken, it should be posted soon

shartley

05-20-2002, 09:35 AM

MrMag
LOL That was NEVER in dispute. Of course it was edited. But that in itself says NOTHING. LOL

They were never trying to “fool” anyone. And the “editing” is not to make it LOOK like it was shooting faster than it was…

ok i didnt read the entire thread because of my extremely short attention spand, but i can tell u this for sure.
LOL I suggest you DO read the entire thread, extremely short attention spans can often make people look foolish…. ;) Ever hear the saying “A day late and a dollar short?” :D

(Sorry.. no real harm is meant by my post… just good natured ribbing. But it does get tiring having people come in at the END of a conversation and make comments like that….)