Everything You Know About Star Wars Is Wrong...

[danEboy]

Found this convincing. :cool:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/248ipzbt.asp



Looking forward to your comments.




Dan

[Mega Man]

The Rebels are the heros because they are the ones who represent what the Glactic Senate once was (the good one inwhich we do not see in Episode I or any, the one spoken of by Senator Palpentine). The Empire did originate from the old Glactic Senate and Republic but since Palpentine was granted huge power in Attack of The Clones we are never shown until EPisode III if he really does give up his immediate extremely high powers or not, the Republic is infact becoming a dictatorship. Also another point is that Anakin is the choosen one, although he becomes Darth Vader and has to have help from his sone Luke to turn back to the Light side of the force he none the less kills The leader of the Empire and the Master of the Sith at the same time, he also ceases to become Darth Vader and once again becomes Anakin Skywalker thus killing the apprentice of the Sith wich eliminates the Sith since the Sith is only a master and an apprentice who harness the dark side of the force. The Sith are the ones who are responsible for the Empire and since they are eliminated and the Death Star destryed the Rebel Alligness can restore the Old Republic.:D

*******EDIT****** I know this has alot of mispelled words but I'm not even going to bother.................

[FooTemps]

Wow... I wish I could write that well... It does make a lot of sense...

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by Mag_Man_2000
The Rebels are the heros because they are the ones who represent what the Glactic Senate once was (the good one inwhich we do not see in Episode I or any, the one spoken of by Senator Palpentine). The Empire did originate from the old Glactic Senate and Republic but since Palpentine was granted huge power in Attack of The Clones we are never shown until EPisode III if he really does give up his immediate extremely high powers or not, the Republic is infact becoming a dictatorship. Also another point is that Anakin is the choosen one, although he becomes Darth Vader and has to have help from his sone Luke to turn back to the Light side of the force he none the less kills The leader of the Empire and the Master of the Sith at the same time, he also ceases to become Darth Vader and once again becomes Anakin Skywalker thus killing the apprentice of the Sith wich eliminates the Sith since the Sith is only a master and an apprentice who harness the dark side of the force. The Sith are the ones who are responsible for the Empire and since they are eliminated and the Death Star destryed the Rebel Alligness can restore the Old Republic.:D

*******EDIT****** I know this has alot of mispelled words but I'm not even going to bother.................


But wasn't the clone war started because a group didn't like the galactic senate? If they restore the old senate back then it would just happen over agian...

[Havoc_online]

He gives a lot of good points that could be argued from both sides. The Empire wanted "order". The Senate didnt want war. The Emperor himself said that the senate didnt function anymore. Hmmmm...Either way, even before reading that, I liked the empire a lot, I think that if all the movies were redone flip-flopped, we would hate the jedi and love the empire, lol.

[Mega Man]

Foo, the Seperatists you are reffering to were rebelling against the NEW Republic, the one I refer to and Senator Palpentine refered to was the Old Republic...............Old Republic=GOOD, New Republic=BAD:D

[Timmee]

I read that, and felt I had to comment. there is irrifutable evidence that the Empire was evil. They destroyed a planet. Granted, there may have been a strong Rebel force on Alderaan, but there were undoubtedly people loyal to the Empire there as well. Those people died as well as any rebels on the planet. Let's not mention attempted xenocide when the Emporer commanded the commander of the second Death Star to fire on Endor.

Also, take into account the names of the Imperial ships and space stations. The Super Star Destroyer that Vader commands is called Executor. I seriously doubt that and organization as "benevolent" as the Empire would have a ship with that name. Also, let's not forget the 2 Death Stars. Space stations with a cannon powerful enough to destroy planets?

And speading of Vader, he had a nasty habit of crushing the throats of anyone who screwed up. How is one supposed to learn from a mistake when their neck is snapped by the force.

In conclusion, that guy has his facts all wrong. Disagree with me all you want, but I stand by my analysis.

[oldsoldier]

All good points...but to comment on the naming of ships. Throughout history, warfare uses many different ruses to affect fear into opposing armies. The Norse capitalized on sea dragon legends..the huns turned an army of 20,000 christian soldiers around by creating a fire breathing "dragon". Giving ships fearful names is just another way of using this method. You dont name ships "SS butterfly" and send it off into battle...there is pride among those who serve on them. Anyway, you get the point.
Also, on the topic of rebels; again, look to our history. Typically, where a rebel group overthrows the current governing body, oftentimes the nation is plunged into further turmoil. This is the result of several things; first, most rebel leaders dont have a background in politics. Second, they achieved what they want through violence...lesson learned? violence gets you what you want. Third, a violent overthrow of a government leaves both a vacuum to be filled, and a large group of deposed people...both of which have the potential to commit further violence.
well, enough rambling. I just wanted to point out a few things.

[FutureMagOwner]

Originally posted by Mag_Man_2000
Foo, the Seperatists you are reffering to were rebelling against the NEW Republic, the one I refer to and Senator Palpentine refered to was the Old Republic...............Old Republic=GOOD, New Republic=BAD:D

not sure if someone else mentioned this but the old republic(aka just b4 the empire) was the bad one the new was the good one and the old old one was good

because after the old one fell they made a new one(im talking after luke killed vadar)

[Jonno06]

actually,episode 1 is supposed to be with the OLD senate,and the other episodes,(jedi strikes back,ect)have the NEW senate,b/c episode 1 was supposed to be before the other episodes

[PaInTbALL zAcH]

i'm as big a star wars geek as the next guy but c'mon guys. They are movies. Enjoy them. To me it just sounds like the fall of communism and that there will be chaos for a time until a new republic is formed which then will cause everything over agian

[Mega Man]

Thier is ONLY 2 Reoublics ever shown in the Star Wars Sagas, the Old Republic (good, not seen just mentioned) and the New Republic (bad, seen in the prequals), the Others you two are reffering to are known as the Empire, NOT the Republic...........................

[obsolete898]

The Empire also enslaves entire species (Wookies and Nagory). Also the only non-human in the emperial navy was Grand-Admiral Thrawn. So they not only had slaves but also were completely prejudice against non-humans.



Personally I love the Empire. Not for the reasons above but for other reasons. But to say that they are not evil is pretty foolish.

[RATM]

Originally posted by obsolete898
The Empire also enslaves entire species (Wookies and Nagory). Also the only non-human in the emperial navy was Grand-Admiral Thrawn. So they not only had slaves but also were completely prejudice against non-humans.



Personally I love the Empire. Not for the reasons above but for other reasons. But to say that they are not evil is pretty foolish.

Now does that not touch close to home. Does the word African American mean anything to you? And in regard to the post above stating they built the death star which could destroy a whole planet and that adds to the fact they are evil. We basically have done the same thing with nukes. Also, to the person who wanted to argue that there were supporters of the Empire on Alderaan, what about our current situation in Afghanistan. In liberating the people we've killed innocent bystanders who have supported us. After all, you must crack a few eggs to make an omelet. I've always liked the Empire(the look of the stormtroopers being my favorite thing) but this article has made a lot of sense and I totally agree with the guy.

[Ni cD]

First post in a long time...here goes!

I want to be a Jedi.

[Havoc_online]

Ha...

I AM a Jedi(I always use the force to guide my paintballs)

Grand-Admiral Thrawn - gotta love him, but as that guy said, he was only basing his comments on the movies.

[Timmee]

Originally posted by RATM


Now does that not touch close to home. Does the word African American mean anything to you? And in regard to the post above stating they built the death star which could destroy a whole planet and that adds to the fact they are evil. We basically have done the same thing with nukes. Also, to the person who wanted to argue that there were supporters of the Empire on Alderaan, what about our current situation in Afghanistan. In liberating the people we've killed innocent bystanders who have supported us. After all, you must crack a few eggs to make an omelet. I've always liked the Empire(the look of the stormtroopers being my favorite thing) but this article has made a lot of sense and I totally agree with the guy.

Actually, the words African American do mean something. Slavery is evil, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Also, could destroy a whole planet? Try it did destroy a whole planet. They were also going to destroy Endor (with an entire legion of the Emporers finest troops on it). And it's a completely different situation than Afghanistan. We've ACCIDENTALLY killed innocent bystanders in Afghanistan, the Empire didn't care if they killed loyal imperials.

[Havoc_online]

Also, could destroy a whole planet? Try it did destroy a whole planet. They were also going to destroy Endor (with an entire legion of the Emporers finest troops on it). And it's a completely different situation than Afghanistan. We've ACCIDENTALLY killed innocent bystanders in Afghanistan, the Empire didn't care if they killed loyal imperials.

They were never going to destroy Endor, that's where the sheild generator was. I think you mean Yavin 4, that's where the rebel base was, there were no imperial troops there.

[Timmee]

In the book based on the movie RoTJ, the Emporer told the commander of the station, if the sheild failed, to destroy Endor. That's what I'm going by. Oh, and I almost forgot about Yavin 4, thanks for the reminder.

[Havoc_online]

I've read most of the book trilogy's also but for argument sake that guy was only talking about the movies themselves.


Oh, and I almost forgot about Yavin 4, thanks for the reminder.

:D n/p

[Timmee]

When he said novels, I thought he meant the expanded universe. NP though. :cool: I still stick by my opinion though. :D

[Havoc_online]

Believe me, I know the Empire is evil, but the case he made from the points of the movies alone, he does have an arguement


you rebel scum... lol I love that line

[FatMan]

Sheesh - if you guy are gong to argue this stuff I would think you would at least become famillar with the subject.

The Old Republic extends back a couple thousand years before SW Episode I. In Expisde III or there abouts it will give way to the Empire - when Palpatine abuses the power granted to him in Episode II and makes himself emperor. In Episode IV he will abolish the Senate (when continues into the Empire, though has very little power after giving it all to him). About 2-3 years after Episode VI the Rebel Alliance will take Coruscant from the remains of the Empire (at that point run by Isard, Palpatine's chief of security) and will set up a new Glactic Government - the NEW Republic with a new Senate. The Empire continues and keeps fighting the New Republic for 10 years or more before finally settling for peace and a small section of the Galaxy. At this point they are run by various warlords left over from Palpatine's command structure.

The Old Republic was good, but worn out and corrupt and ineffective. Thus it led to the Empire, that seemed good at first, restoring order to the galaxy, until Palpatine's abuses showed it to be evil. The New Republic was also good though they certainly had their problems - infighting, corruption, and so on.

So, in summary:

Old Republic - good, but wearing out
Empire - evil
New Republic - good with expected growing pains

As for this guy's article - he's got to write about SOMETHING so I can't fault him too bad, but his understanding of politics is poor - and his knowledge of Star Wars is thin.

FatMan

[wyn1370]

You could twist either side to be right, "from a certain point of view"

[Havoc_online]

Sheesh - if you guy are gong to argue this stuff I would think you would at least become famillar with the subject.

Dude, you need to calm down and slow your roll. If you had paid attention you would of known that everything that happened in the books does not apply to this debate for the reason that that guys complete statement was based soley on the movies and not the books. We all have knowledge of before and after and between all the episodes but I don't think we're out to show it off. Everything you said that did make sense and could be gathered from the movies alone has already been said.

[Shaft]

Wasn't the collapse of the Old Republic hastened by the corruption of the Trade Federation and Palpatine?
I always thought that Palpatine was using the Trade Federation as a pawn to create unrest via trade embargos and stuff like that.
This helped create unrest in the senate and cause galaxies to bail. This continued weakening of the Old Republic snowballed into what eventually becomes its demise and then allows for the rise of the Empire.
I like this theory. I'm a GENIOUS!!! :cool:

[Timmee]

Actually, Ysanne Isard was director of Imperial Intelligence. She took command from her father, Armand Isard, who was executed for supposedly having Rebel sympathies (FYI, it was Ysanne Isard who created that lie).

Not that this info has any bearing on the debate at hand. :D

[Havoc_online]

This helped create unrest in the senate and cause galaxies to bail

galaxies or star systems? heehee there wasnt too many galaxies in star wars.

[Shaft]

Originally posted by Havoc_online


galaxies or star systems? heehee there wasnt too many galaxies in star wars.

Ok... yeah star systems too. [as I scribble things to do in Texas: Eat at Salt Lick then go beat up Havoc....] :p

[FatMan]

Originally posted by Havoc_online


Dude, you need to calm down and slow your roll. If you had paid attention you would of known that everything that happened in the books does not apply to this debate for the reason that that guys complete statement was based soley on the movies and not the books.

Oh, I saw that - it's also BS! Let's argue about whether Hitler was good or evil based on 5 newsreals taken from 5 different points in history. He took power in Germany pretty much the same way Palpatine is shown taking power in SW.

I read what the guy said, he's just making an argument for the sake of making it and choosing to ignore what is obvious. His explicit denial of what is in the novels only makes that clearer.

The article is drivel!

FatMan

[wyn1370]

Originally posted by FatMan


Oh, I saw that - it's also BS! Let's argue about whether Hitler was good or evil based on 5 newsreals taken from 5 different points in history. He took power in Germany pretty much the same way Palpatine is shown taking power in SW.

I read what the guy said, he's just making an argument for the sake of making it and choosing to ignore what is obvious. His explicit denial of what is in the novels only makes that clearer.

The article is drivel!

FatMan
but lucas sold all rights to anything that happens after jedi. so anything after jedi can not be considered part of lucas' story (I've read most of them and love em), since he doesn't control what happens.

[Havoc_online]

I've read most of them and love em

hey wyn1370, two words, Sun Crusher, lol

[wyn1370]

Kyp's little punk butt should have got smoked. Now he's turned into a serious P.I.T.A. If they only had the armor from that thing to use against the vong.

[FatMan]

Originally posted by wyn1370

but lucas sold all rights to anything that happens after jedi. so anything after jedi can not be considered part of lucas' story (I've read most of them and love em), since he doesn't control what happens.

Says who? Lucas still approves the major story line - he still owns the rights to it all. Just because he doesn't think up all the details of the story - who could be expected to do that?

The point is the author of the article decides to look at things as if the films tell all - when they are clearly snapshots of a larger epic. There is no reason to believe the empire crumbles when Palpatine dies - though it is certainly reasonable to assume their ability to maintain an iron grip on the galaxy dies. There is no reason to assume the Rebel Alliance does not form a new galactic government that maintains the peace and order in the galaxy - and in fact the novels show EXACTLY THAT, which is why they are relevant to the discussion and the referenced article is so much fluff.

To arbitrarily decide to limit yourself to ONLY information in the films and THEN go off on wild assumptions about what could happen next and from that draw conclusions is rediculous!

FatMan

[Hexis]

He's wrong about one thing. The Books and other parts of the extended universe are cannon. The only book that isn't is "Splinter of the Mind's Eye", tho there have been referances to that in other books, so you could concider that almost cannon.

He uses statements made in the movies to manipulate Amidala as proof of the empire's good intentions.

He completly ignores the Empire's human only stance. Kinda of like galatic racism. Xenoism maybe? They use their weapons of mass destruction to enforce their will. Sound Thrid Reichish anyone?

[wyn1370]

if the expanded universe is so canon, who is boba fett?
the expanded universe is more of a what if type of thing. As we have seen lucas can and will at anytime contradict it. Don't get me wrong I have nothing against it, but I think there is a seperation between Lucas's saga and the expanded universe.

[Hexis]

At least in the last few years, Lucas has approved and coordinated the expanded universe. Book, video games, comics, RPGs, any anything else go through a check at pretty much every stage of their production to keep things in line with the universe as a whole. That would make them canon.

I would argue that the "expanded universe" is Lucas' saga. The moveis are core to it, but it's very limited without at least the books. That's part of what makes Star Wars so fun, the rich nature of it. You feel as if the stork is only part of a much larger picture. Even taking all fo the expanded universe into view, it's still just part of a longer, larger story.

How does Boba not fit in with the expanded universe?

[FatMan]

Originally posted by wyn1370
if the expanded universe is so canon, who is boba fett?
the expanded universe is more of a what if type of thing. As we have seen lucas can and will at anytime contradict it. Don't get me wrong I have nothing against it, but I think there is a seperation between Lucas's saga and the expanded universe.

I'm not sure what the Boba Fett thing has to do with it.

Actually, they go to great lengths to keep the films and books and graphic novels consistent. Most of the apparent contradictions are just that - apparent. One could say that any of it is a "what if" kind of thing - I mean, its a story - its all "what if" but the story has a consistent time line with events that are consistent throughout. They don't go off on one line and then come back and do something completely different. There IS one big story - Lucas does not think up ALL of that story, but the writers that DO work together with Lucas's people to keep in consistent. That is a big part of what makes it interesting.

FatMan

[wyn1370]

In Andy Mangles' Essential Guide to Characters, Boba Fett's real name is listed as Jaster Mereel. It is also in one of the novels, not sure which one.
Lucas says Boba Fett is dead, expanded universe says he's still alive. One of the tales books tells about his escape from the sarlacc.
The agreement to keep everything fitting together had nothing to do with lucas. Lucas doesn't care what happens in the expanded universe. If he did why did he let them kill Chewie? Lucas could at anytime do episodes 7-9 and make the EU obsolete.

[Hexis]

How did Lucas kill Boba in the movies? He definatly tossed Boba into the sarlac, but I don't remember RoTJ showing him dead.

From starwars.com/eu (http://www.starwars.com/eu) :
"If your experience with Star Wars has been just the movies, you're only getting a fraction of the entire tale. Since the start, the Star Wars saga has been expanded through novels, comics, and games."

To me that sounds like a pretty clear message. The EU is part of the story.

[wyn1370]

hmmmm, well how about
Responding to questions in a 1997 MTV promo for the Special Editions, George Lucas said: "I don't know why. [Laughs]. I'm mystified by it. He's a mysterious character. He's a provocative character. He seems like an all powerful character, except he gets killed. Although he's gotten killed, the people who right the books, and everything, and the comics say 'we cant kill him, we gotta bring him back, we can't let him die!'"
you can even see the
video (http://www.bobafettfanclub.com/MULTIMEDIA/video/) of george saying it.

[FatMan]

Yep, I'd be willing to believe Lucas intended Boba Fett to be dead - but he did NOT make that definite - and later the book writers realized what a popular character he was and decided he did NOT die. But once that was decided and written about, it has not been contradicted.

As I said, Lucas does write ALL of the story lines - they story has evolved over time. What, you expect he FIRST decided EVERYTHING and THEN started making movies? He has even changed the names of major characters as he went along. Amadala was originally going to be some other name. So what? NOW that the die is cast, it stays as it is.

Specifically he prevented writers from speculating about things like Palpatine's rise to power and Vader's origins to allow himself the flexibility to write that history as he saw fit in Episodes I, II, and III. Once the main story lines are laid, then writers can fill in details that are left out, provided they are consistent.

But Lucas retains creative ownership of the Star Wars Universe and he can control where the stories do and do not go to whatever extent he wants. He DOES consider them part of the story.

So what does all of this have to do with the original question? You can base opinions on a lack of information, or the information available. We ARE talking about a fictional universe, so if you want to off and beleive whatever you want about it. But try to write a book about your altered view - and you will find you cannot legally publish it.

Whatever.

FatMan

[RT_Luver]

I couldn't understand half of that. to long and TOO MANY big words

[RT_Luver]

Originally posted by FatMan
Yep, I'd be willing to believe Lucas intended Boba Fett to be dead - but he did NOT make that definite - and later the book writers realized what a popular character he was and decided he did NOT die.

He has even changed the names of major characters as he went along. Amadala was originally going to be some other name.


FatMan

I found it very suprising when I read in a comic book some where that Boba fett didn't die.I believe Leia and Han were looking for some info on something and Boba fett pulls up behide them and Han says' but your dead, you fell in the scarcath pit(or something like that" and Boba Fett says soemthing like "I did but it found my armor some what "indijestable". on the thing of Amidala's original name, i dont think it makes any differece(I happen to like amidale better) but I've seen somewhere that it was going ot be Arcadia(sounds stupid to me)

[Timmee]

I think some would agree that the original article was written to stir up debate. Personally, I know the Empire is evil. What it boils down to is, the Empire has no qualms about massive destruction to keep the status quo. Mon Calamari and Wookies are another great example of the Empire's evil. The Empire enslaves these races, partially because they're non humans. It really came back to bite them in the rear when a former slave of Grand Moff Tarkin whooped up on the Imperial Navy in RoTJ (FYI, it was Admiral Ackbar that was Tarkin's slave).

[FactsOfLife]

this guy refuses to acknowledge the books that come before and after the star wars movies proper, only to bolster his points.

what utter crap. how easy is it to take the empire out of context that way and make it seem they are the good guys.

and speaking of anarchic rebels, seems to me we were considered that very thing by the Brits.


Then we kicked their behinds...

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by wyn1370
hmmmm, well how about
Responding to questions in a 1997 MTV promo for the Special Editions, George Lucas said: "I don't know why. [Laughs]. I'm mystified by it. He's a mysterious character. He's a provocative character. He seems like an all powerful character, except he gets killed. Although he's gotten killed, the people who right the books, and everything, and the comics say 'we cant kill him, we gotta bring him back, we can't let him die!'"
you can even see the
video (http://www.bobafettfanclub.com/MULTIMEDIA/video/) of george saying it.

yep, and every book written in the EU is vetted by GL himself. he actually nixed a book by one author because he didn't like the story line. Ended up giving it to another writer entirely.

[Tactical Neural Implant]

Well here's a few more points to add about the empire being evil that the writer seem to ignore. (Using movie references not any books.)


1. Hunting down and killing of all Jedi. (Luke, Yoda, and Obi won are the last Jedi - not counting Leia because she is not trained. When Obi won is gone and Yoda is about to dye does he not tell Luke that he is the last Jedi in one of the movies.)

2. Palpatine is playing everybody against each other to seize power! It's not like Dooku (Darth Tyrannus) is really out to stop the republic because things are unfair. He's doing it to trick the republic into giving Palpatine military might! He goes to his master in the last scene!

[Havoc_online]

I hear you and agree, however that guy could just spin what you put and say that they had to hunt the jedi because they were a threat and the he simply conned his weak enemy out of power....I dunno, my 2 cents.