Is there really any design difference between >>>>

[AGD]

The Angel, Impulse, Intimidator, Bushmaster or even the Cocker?? Seems to me they are more alike than different.

Your opinions?

AGD

[thei3ug]

I remember when the angel came out, a lot of people were calling it the "blowback electro." I suppose the "simulated closed bolt" nonsense was meant to counteract that. But you're right, it is more like an autococker than it is any other current non-electro.

It is the exhaust valve arrangement that makes it so similar, so in terms of lineage, you could say that their similarities arise from their mimickery of sheridans.

What I think is interesting is the wide differences in aftermarket parts for each marker. Each community seems to have found unique ways that they need to differentiate their marker, and it appears that only recently have they begun to converge.

[the JoKeR]

There's only so many ways to skin a cat. Until somebody comes up with something truely unique, I'd guess we are going to continue to see a lot of guns that are pretty similar. I would also guess that a lot of patent rights are either holding back some companies or are scaring others away from new designs. Look at all the huff surrounding loaders and BE...

[thei3ug]

I just thought about this... you COULD say "is there REALLY any difference between an automag, a desert fox, an ls2000, an equalizer, a badger, an armson, a scorpion semi kit..." i think there's one I'm missing.

Seems to me they're more alike than different. :)

[pbjosh]

Well, you asked for it, and I fell for the bait-

"The Angel, Impulse, Intimidator, Bushmaster or even the Cocker?? Seems to me they are more alike than different"

Alike at what level? At some level they are just chunks of metal and/or plastic that fire a paintball using compressed air.

The difference in actions or events to fire the ball seems to be a much debated and hyped thing. So, IMHO

I will throw all the over/under electros in with the over/under Blowbacks. Why? The action is the same. Take a spyder, remove the spring and add a ram and 4-way solenoid valve, and to can have the same action as an angel. The components are almost interchangable. They all have a linkage between the bolt and hammer. If you want to paint a broader brush, they are all single action paintball guns. When tuning the electronic components, you need one solenoid on, then off. Easy sqweezy.

The Cocker needs to be in another section. Sure the valving is similiar. But the action is totally different. If it was electro it has to be timed with three parts, solenoid one on/off, dwell, solenoid two on/off. A shocker would be closer in action than an angel. Sure the valving is different, but the number of actions needed to achieve a ball launch is more involved. Unless you are a bit scrambled in the head and try to make a 'Cocker single action, and well, that is what happens with the PGI firestorm kit. And the hammer and bolt are still not connected. They are timed different with internal springs.

So, if we look at two areas, valving and action the Cocker and Spyder types are 1 degree away, the Shocker is 2 degrees away from the Spyder types. Shocker and Mag are 1 degree away, since both use a dump valve.

Josh

[thei3ug]

I don't think looking at it strictly by automation design should be the determining factor in lineage.

Your analogy of blowbacks to open bolt electros has been noted from the beginning, but once again, the very essense of what it is to be a blowback is lost when there is no exhaust port for the hammer on an electro.

Also take into account the lineage of blowback semis. Once again, they lead us to one source: the sheridan valve system. The heart of the firing sequence.

[Vegeta]

In my opinion tehre are only a few original semi-auto markers. They all boil down about 3 categories:

The Tippmann based
The Automag
The Converted Pumps (cocker)

Tippmann was the first to think of hte inline valve.. hti by a hamme.. moving a powertube, and firing the ball and then blowign hte hammer back to it's cocked position. Now you may think 'what about stacked tube blow backs?' Guess what folk- smae damn thing. just htat the bolt in linked to the hammer vertically and the valve routes the gas upwards thru the bolt. Same thing.

BTW i got the info that Tippy was first from an old APG article about the evolution of markers. Word of mouth.

Now the Mag is in a class of it's own. Blowforward dump chamber... well not much I can say there.

Cocker is just an automated pumpuing system. We all know how that works.

So currently- almost ALL guns are based off of those three. With the exception of spoll valve guns like the Nova/Mayhem.

till someone comes up with a new configuration .. thats what we are stuck with.

[subbeh]

Originally posted by Vegeta
Cocker is just an automated pumpuing system. We all know how that works.

Hence the name Autococker I suppose :) Sorry, the intelligence level of this thread is far too high for me.

[FatMan]

What about the Nova? It has similarities with the Mag, but also differences. Is it a class by itself or in one of the other categories?

FatMan

[Vegeta]

Spool valve.. I'd class it in its own.. along wit hthe new mayhems.

[thei3ug]

Vegeta, the automag is not in a class of its own. Look in my second post... there's a list of blowforewards that use similar, if not near identical operation to the automag.

[zen_dawg]

What ever happened to that I.C.E. marker? Im not sure what the name was, i think it was called the "Eclipse" Their design was a radical one. From what i've heard, the gun utilizes a "trap door" system to fire a p-ball.

[BlackVCG]

You mean the Epic? It was a boltless gun that had a trap door that would open up each time to let the next ball in the chamber.

[thei3ug]

It is still around. the time of release and the MSRP kinda hampered sales.

[Cha0tic]

yes, the epic was very expensive for what it was. it had a very limited rof, somthing around 10bps, but you could never chop. good idea, but today players look for speed in their markers.

[AGD]

but today players look for speed in their markers

Do they? How does that explain the fact that the Autococker is the most poplular high end gun on the planet right now?

AGD

[thei3ug]

Tom,
As much as I'd love to discuss the technological merits and downfalls of markers, you've just opened up a whole new can of worms.

The problem isn't which design has the fastest cycle rate, which one can recharge fastest, which one has the ability to go the 50 yd dash on a unicycle...

When people talk of speed, it's a very personal subject. Some people just can't fire electronic triggers (like myself). Some people just can't fire automags. Some can't fire autocockers. Some will never want to go beyond a blowback.

instance: my younger brother, when he plays, can hammer on that cocker trigger and make you wonder whether he's having a seizure. You give him a mag or an electro, and he'll throw it in the dirt after the first game because he can't get a rhythm.

[RT_Luver]

Originally posted by AGD


Do they? How does that explain the fact that the Autococker is the most poplular high end gun on the planet right now?

AGD


I believe(and so do many other people) that the reason the cocker is so popular is that their are SO MANY different ways to make it work and make it look. i mean you can get parts from 20 different companies and so can everyone else so its ALMOST impossible for some one to have the same gun that you do, and thats why I think people like them, the ability to be so different from others

[Ultimator]

Originally posted by thei3ug
instance: my younger brother, when he plays, can hammer on that cocker trigger and make you wonder whether he's having a seizure
hahahaha.

Anyway, good point you have. I can absolutely not get any kind of rhythm on any Spyder. 'Mags I don't have a problem with and angels, it's just a matter of sticking your finger on the trigger and moving it as fast as possible.

To some point, I agree with Tom, but in a different way. many companies take (I won't say steal) ideas from others (i.e. Company A comes up with the shortest trigger pull on any frame out there ... Company B makes the exact same thing because they realize the superiority and calls it something different.) So indirectly, I guess, everything ends up getting related in some shape or form.

On Cockers ... the reason they are so popular is because what do you see when you open up an APG or other paintball magazine covering tournaments? Cockers. Because of how many pro's use them, they automatically gain popularity because most people just joining the sport want to be good off the bat so run out and get a cocker, mess with it causing it to break, then throw it away. Another thing is after everyone has a cocker, they automatically become the gun to have, because, of course, everyone has one.

[AGD]

SO if it really is about looks and customization then rate of fire really has nothing to do with it. Electro was only popular because it was cool not because it shot fast?

AGD

[Top Secret]

From a design standpoint, the aforementioned electros(angel, timmy, etc) all use the principle of a stacked tube, but use a electronically controlled air switch similar to the 4-way on a cocker to move the bolt and hammer instead of a sear/spring/hammer combo. So they basically do share the same features as the blowbacks. The cocker definatly falls into a different group because of the duel use of the trigger to control the ram and the release of the hammer. If the bolt were linked to the hammer, then it would be in the same group as the others. But I also believe that air way switch and hammer combo is where the thing that slows the other guns down, allowing the mags to blow them away speedwise.

As for why are cockers popular? You got me. Every time I go to the field I see some cocker with a leak somewhere. Granted my teammates Black Magic and 2k2 cockers work alright, but I still swear by my uber-reliable Emag which has not had a single problem short of a broken nubbin.

Cockers do get alot more "media coverage" than mags do. In one of my copies of facefull, I saw one mag. A black SFL E-mag being shot by a member of Aftershock(which to the uninitiated looks like an angel of some kind). Other than that, cockers, angels, and the occational timmy.




Plus I think there is some sort of hypnotic noise generated by cockers that makes you want to buy one after hearing it shoot.

[Dubstar112]

In my preception, the effective speed of a marker is what most people look at. By this I mean, how fast a gun can shoot with out having paint problems. People generally think of higher pressure guns as having these paint problems... You have to have idiot proof marketing skills for them people who dont understand the accuracy difference between LP and higher pressure guns..(squinting eh? Well you should know there is no difference)

Blow backs have kick, and are kinda crude in some ways, where as an autococker is refined by every single upgraded item(ram, x-way lpr, hammer ect..).

If somone tried hard enough, and put enough research into a gun, I bet they could come up with a blow back gun that felt like an Angel or Autococker, or any thing expensive.:)

Stereotypes, guns are stereotyped more than is imaginable. Every day of play I hear "Beginners gun" atleast 40 times. Beginners gun? Blowback? Pump? BKO? Automag? Angel? Ive seen beginners start out with every type of gun, and no more one than the others.

[edit..] I reviewed my own post, and I asked my self what really separates one style of gun from another?

[thei3ug]

Originally posted by AGD
SO if it really is about looks and customization then rate of fire really has nothing to do with it. Electro was only popular because it was cool not because it shot fast?

AGD

That is a LOADED question.

I can fire a typhoon or blazer MUCH faster than I can fire any angel. That's besides the point apparently.

But looks and customization play a BIG part in perceived speed. Of course no one here wants to believe that so give it up. Looks have nothing to do why people buy Camaros. I mean, they're slower, and not that much cheaper than a corvette...

Angels are popular because they're electros AND they're good looking AND they have the highest amount of garbage you can do to them.

[FatMan]

Originally posted by AGD
SO if it really is about looks and customization then rate of fire really has nothing to do with it. Electro was only popular because it was cool not because it shot fast?

AGD

I think you are right, actually. I think the first thing that made the electros so cool was the trigger - people want their trigger to be the lightest and smallest possible, without fear of short-stroking. Theoretically, an electronic trigger gives you that, if you set it up right. Personally I HATE electronic triggers. My favorite trigger was on my BBT Typhoon - except I always short-stroked an bad times. My RT-Mag is pretty close, and I never short stroke. That's why I like it.

Certainly noone wants to feel like the speed of the marker hinders them, but most high-end markers shoot fast enough, and the rest is BS.

The biggest selling point in paintball is hype - marketing sex, coolness, the next big thing - and all that. Its like stereo equipment, I remember when amps went from 0.1% THD to 0.001% THD - like anyone can tell the difference! Yeah, maybe if you are doing professional recordings. PB is in a similar place - 150psi, 30bps, 1g 1mm trigger pull, full auto - none of that stuff matters when it comes to playing paintball - its all about who has the coolest marker in the staging area, who has the biggest d**k!

Tom, yours is one of the few companies that has consistently focused on engineering - and you have a bunch of loyal followers because of that. The only way to go beyond that is to focus on marketing - because you have DONE the technical superiority. Of course, you risk losing some of that technical superiority with marketing. *I* hope you just keep on as you are, but I understand you have to keep your business going.

I like the fact that AGD has taken the high road. In truth I think WGP and Palmer and some others are also pretty straight-up about their products - they are well engineered and moderately well marketed. The question is how much of the hype game are you going to play - and why are we discussing the hype game in Deep Blue ???:confused:

But in the end, its not technical superiority that the market is following, any more than it does in cars, electronics, software, or anything else - its hype.

FatMan

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by AGD
SO if it really is about looks and customization then rate of fire really has nothing to do with it. Electro was only popular because it was cool not because it shot fast?

AGD

Ooooh a chance for me to spout off on sociological trends!

I believe paintball equipment follows much the same path as say mobile communications.

Years ago pagers were insanely expensive and were only used by people like surgeons who truly NEEDED them. The difference in time that the pager saved could've meant life or death. People saw this and attributed a sort of importance persona to the pager itself, just because of who initially accepted and embraced the product. Then by purchasing the same product they believe that the same aura of importance (or expertise) is attriubted to them.

It's kind of like apparent neccessity.


**EDIT** Ok so that was a worthless, off topic post. I submit that we start with the three main valves and draw up a sort of a tree with the related families. Any Objections?

[cheetah256]

i too, got tired with all of the guns on the field looking the same, hence the reason i bought a nova.... (http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/cheetah256) it really does function very strangely. its basically a cocker, but instead of the 4 way pushing the pump arm back and forth, it pushes the barrel...somehow, they also milled the 3 way into the delrin breech of the gun, which is why you don't see any external pneumatics. i'm still working on figuring out how the trigger works, its all pneumatic, and somehow the air released by pushing the trigger causes the spool to open and allow the dump chamber to dump...

[sniper1rfa]

the way i see it is that its a big-*** popularity contest, the more people like one gun, the mroe people wll start liking that gun. that probably accounts for 50% of gun purchases. then 25% is hype, and the last bit is personal preference. does it matter? the good guns will be popular. cockers rock, angels rock, mags are cool, but they can get troublesome (though they will never actually cease to function).

[dmonahan]

Tom,
You hit the nail on the head. It is vert much about how a marker feels and how it can be personalized. Just look at the markers that are currently hot seller right now

How many differant ways can you purches a cocker, imp or angel. Peaple like to sand out and be differant.

I've grown up in the auto/motorcycle ind. and have seen it all my life. I've had many markers and there is very littel differance between all the highend marker as far as preformance. It all comes down to feel and the ability to make it your own.

Side note. Support also. I loved my e-mag and I am drolling over the extreem but dag-it we need some better west coast support!!

[mag-nanamus]

People want the latest and greatest. To show off the newest and hottest. Mag is near perfect as is, even most after market parts improve nothing and often create problems. Cocker owners like to improve thier guns. It's just like souping up an engine. "Hey Joey! Look at this Holley double pumper I just put in! I believe electro's are popular for the same reason pagers are, "Look, it tells me how many beers are left in my cooler!"

[Colin Thompson]

The Angel, Impulse, Intimidator, Bushmaster or even the Cocker?? Seems to me they are more alike than different.

Tom, do you throw out these things just to get a reaction? I think you do it and then giggle:)

It took a long time, but I found where all my old friends post about things arcane. I see Doc and Glenn Palmer and Tom here.

It's been a long time since I had to think these deep thoughts, but Tom's story about getting more shots from a PGP was priceless. Now my job is fairly boring.

It's good to see you here. I'll check in regularly.

[athomas]

Originally posted by AGD
SO if it really is about looks and customization then rate of fire really has nothing to do with it. Electro was only popular because it was cool not because it shot fast?

AGD

The electro is cool to people because it shoots fast with minimal effort. You take any marker and add electronics to it to increase the rate of fire and it instantly becomes cool to most people regardless of looks. Other markers look cool and have the intimidation affect on players. Ever hear inexperienced players looking at a spazzed up marker and commenting "Wow. I'll bet that gun shoots fast" or "I'll bet that gun is accurate".

Personally, like a lot of people, I like my markers to stand out from others at the field where I play.

Marker styles are all based on similar technologies. Push a ball into the breach and fire it using compressed gas. Its as simple as that.

[manike]

Colin, welcome to AO.

Most definitely a pleasure to have your company here. :)

manike

[nicad]

manike- hehe.. right now your at 1234 posts.
also, your the manike from racegun, right?

I love hype.. I heard an ad on the radio the other day about some cordless drill.. they said.. "It has 40% more torque".

Uumm- 40% more than what?!?! they really expect me to believe that??
uhgg.. im just going to start going around spouting out crazy, outlandish claims and see how many people believe me.. :)

[Miscue]

I think it's cuz cocker's have that moving back block. People are mesmorized by it, just like shiny things.

[mykroft]

Some people are incredibly fast on the cocker's trigger. I know somebody who can reliably hit 13bps on a cocker (Note his pre-paintball hobby was speed emtal guitar, 8 years of training his fingers to be fast+lots of talent). Most people can't fire faster than 8-10bps on anything. So popularity pretty much comes down to the autococker and Angel at the high end. If you prefer mechanical, it's the cocker, electronic is the Angel. Now the one thing both these markers have in common, besides excellent performance, is the cosmetic factor, they are very pretty, and very customizable markers.

Now design wise, The Bushmaster, Intimidator and Impulse are virtually identical. The Autococker is similar, but not identical (Closed bolt, ram is pneumatically actuated in both directions, seperate hammer). An EM1 is a Bushmaster with teh Ram stroke reversed (Pnematic fired, spring cocked instead of vice-versa).

The Matrix and Nova are 2 variations on the same principle, but varying wildly in application.

I don't know enough abou the shockers internals to comment, apart from it appears to have a cocking solenoid and a firing solenoid.

[nerobro]

Originally posted by AGD


Do they? How does that explain the fact that the Autococker is the most poplular high end gun on the planet right now?

AGD

We've had some pretty long discussions on this one over the dinner table with the IPR midwest guys, and with people at the field...... Short of people just plain likeing the trigger feel. (I'm one of those people..... ) there's this thing about the recriprocating back block. it moves.. it entrances.. and it hypnotizes it's users. I see so many dedicated people with cockers who have them setup so poorly that I can make them stumble over their own 4ways. (outrunning the gun... without shortstroking)

I'm gong to leave the cocker out of the rest of this... because of data brought up in another thread in the deep blue forum. glen has gotten a autococking gun to spit 20+bps... I think that is good enough for me ;-) (just glazes over the whole bolt open time thing........ )

As for real differences... Most of the electroguns out there are different only in very sutble ways. I too can't see the difference between most of them. I can't easily defend a defiant versus a bushmaster, or an impulse, or any of the other stacked tube electroguns. The only thing that even puts the angel in a different class is it's build quality and attention to detail. (though lets not mention the regs *grins*)

I think your last statement about electros being cool becuase they're cool is correct. There's been a recent surge in mechanical guns that happen to have electronic triggers on them. Mostly spyders, but the emag, matrix, eNOVA, and rainmaker could all be included in this category. Excluding the emag, they all have essentialy the same trigger, shared with just about every electrogun on tha market, from the em-1 through the angel, to the excalibur. But people don't want to use them..... why? Because they aren't "true electropneumatic guns." The meaning of that looses me... but it's their way of classifying the guns with microswitch triggers from the guns that won't run well without a computer in them.

If you want to talk preformance, even an electrospyder will keep up with an angel, and versus chopping the ball, it'll just stop on it... Take a look at the e-mag, players didn't want it beacuse it had too big of a battery, even though on paper it is the best preforming electrogun out there. (if you dont' put a lot of weight on efficancy) They'll still go for the impulse because they like the eye.. even though the level 10 negates the need, and the extremes will have them.

I'm quite sure it's an image thing. The generation of "true electropneumatics" as they want to call them are just limp wristed spyders that need a 9volt to run properly. I think we're seeing the next long barrel, or lp fad.. and it's all in with the guns that can't survive without a comptuer.

if only they'd listen to reason ;-) There's another point to bring up.. so long as you're not outrunning the gun, who cares about preformance? (I hate even being somewhat close to the limits of my gun... but I feel the need to share why ian sticks with his angel) he's shooting not more than 12bps... so why should he get an e-mag? he likes the looks of his angel......

I think i'm rambling at this point. I think it comes down to status, looks and style. None of it has to do with real preformance......

[ega]

yep, it is about looks and intimidation.
i remember one of the games where we had a bunch of
guys with spyders, stock cockers and 1 mag (me) and overheard another player telling his buddy " ho damn, they got angels and free flow cocker on the other side!!! we're gonna get smashhh!!!" got me pissed and we kicked there butt. go figure.

:confused:


aiy't

[Nytebreed]

I love the looks I get when I put away my angel in tourney to shoot my old minimag. Then again it was my seccond marker after my phantom, so ive learned how to tune it quite well over the years.

[Ityl]

Originally posted by AGD
The Angel, Intimidator, Bushmaster

they are basically the same


Originally posted by AGD
Impulse

same as above but without a lpr, runs at low enough pressure so the solenoid runs off the same pressure as what pushes the ball


Originally posted by AGD
or even the Cocker??


Same valve but the bolt isn't connected to the hammer.

it's funny that all these guns, which some go over $1k, all have the same valve as the $100 Spyder.

[mykroft]

Ityl, the valve is different. While they are all poppet valves, the Spyder's and all blowbacks have 2 air esxits (1 to the bolt, 1 to the hammer). All of the autococking & poppet-valve electro's have only one air exit (to the bolt).

[Ityl]

Originally posted by mykroft
Ityl, the valve is different. While they are all poppet valves, the Spyder's and all blowbacks have 2 air esxits (1 to the bolt, 1 to the hammer). All of the autococking & poppet-valve electro's have only one air exit (to the bolt).

very true...

[nerobro]

Pssst.... cocker valves have air come out on 2 paths too ;-) all a spyder vavle has is a REALLY leaky poppet valve. A few aftermarket cocker valves have o-rings to seal that...... but many don't and leak just the same.

[Danny77]

well this conversation kind of went the other way...

I remember when I first was interested in the mag- the reason being, I saw some guy shooting it in an APG magazine, and im like thats cool! I want one!(that was about a year and a half ago)

Later I started researching about it, and found that theres a lot more to the mag than just being a cool gun...and the cockers old nemisis.

...the perfect gun for speedball for me...Now I just need some money:)

[314159]

sounds like you need a pgp ;)

that's what i play with when i am short of cash ^_^

[XR4]

A lot has already been said on this issue, but I feel something is missing. We're comparing paintball technology without a proper break down. I feel there are three areas of importance.

1 method for firing the ball, actually applying the gas.
2 method for reload, actuating the bolt to open the breach and resetting the hammer, if equipped.
3 controls, motion from trigger to actuating systems.

1) method for firing the ball.
Here, all markers where hammers strike exhaust valves are almost indistinguishable. Yes tippmans and nelson pumps have the valve and bolt in-line, but this does not matter. This detail does not significantly affect performance.

Other forms of marker include the mag, nova, and a few others. I'm not too familiar with the matrix, does it have a hammer? The greatest difference in these 3 design catagorie has to be hammer, or no hammer. The other 2 catagories serve mainly to seperate the hammer equipped guns on their own, relatively minor differences.

2) method for resetting bolt, and hammer if equipped.
A Blow back markers. the hammer and bolt are directly linked at all times. A blast of air from the same valve used to fire the ball is applied to the hammer.

B Electro with bolt and hammer directly linked. These markers include the Angel, Bushmaster, Impulse, and others. The tool used to reset the bolt does not matter for classification, so long as its not blow back.

C Bolt and hammer not directly linked markers. The most important being the Autococker and Rainmaker/Vector, but don't leave out the Excalibur. With the two major events (firing and breach opening) seperated the issue of timing arises. The RM/Vector cleverly dismisses the issue by having the ram actuate both, first one, then the other. Anyways, the relationship between these two events is now negotiable, an important distinction.

D Non blow back spring return, such as the mag and nova. When fired the spring holding the breach open is compressed. After the ball is fired the spring returns the breach to its open position.

3 Contols. This catagory is more than just electro or mechanical. In electros it includes the device used to actuate the systems its connected to. For the angel, this means the selenoids and 14 way valve.

A Mechanical pneumatic. This is the autococker, Vector, Blazer, automag, and Nova. Valves are mechanically actuated by the trigger which sets the gun in motion.

B Electro pneumatic. This includes the Angel, Bushmaster, Impulse, Excalibur, ect. Selenoids actuate pneumatic rams or valves to cycle the gun. The E-mag is here only because the r/t valve is itself a pneumatic actuator.

C Electro, non-pneumatic. Tippmann electro, some Kingman electros, Boo-Yah. Here, the selenoid directly actuates the gun, typically by pulling the sear. Even though the E-mag adds only a selenoid to the r/t valve, the E-mag is not in this catagorie because the selenoid actuates pneumatics (the r/t valve itself.) In this catagory, the selenoid must actuate the gun through mechanical interaction.

D Purely mechanical. Tippmann, Spyders, ect. No AGD products other than panther.


Do design differences exist between the high end hammer based markers? Yes, most relatively minor. So what's the point? I agree with the others who have elluded to this: PRODUCT PERFORMANCE HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH SALES PERFORMANCE. Read the last sentence again. I've raced radio control cars from the age of 13. I've raced (autocross) real cars since I was 18. I've played paintball since I was 19. All of these activities involve equippment in a way that I love, that's why I'm a mechanical engineering student. What have I learned? The enthusiast consumer has no way to scientifically evaluate the product. Take this story for example:

My father grew up in Richmond VA and was a regular at just about every race at he could attend. One weekend, the roof of Richard Petty's car was damaged somehow before the race. To get it looking presentable by race day the crew threw a vinyl roof kit on and Petty wins the race. Next weekend, a couple other teams have vinyl roof kits on their cars.

Paintball too is a sport chock full of myth and fantasy. Look at all the fools who failed high school physics and are completely certain that cockers shoot farther than other markers. Sure that's one of the worst, but many believe that a 16" boomstick is more efficeint than a 10". Look at all of Smart Parts marketing. In this world, facts and figures don't matter. What markers Avalanche and After Shock use is what counts here. I wish Bad Company all the luck in the world. Not because victory with spyders should be a testament to Kingman, but it shows that marker doesn't matter as much as everyone thinks.

What matter to me in a marker? Trigger. Recoil. Consistancy. Efficiency.

I shoot an e-mag.

Out
XR