Workhorse of a marker?..........

[Johnjs]

Dear Forum Members,

The Energetic Systems and Security Technology Department at Battelle currently has a program with the Marines to develop a TaserTM dart for non-lethal incapacitation. We will be purchasing one or more of the more advanced paintball markers to use as a launcher for the dart. The problem will be the 5 oz dart mass and goal of 300 ft/s. Could anyone recommend what markers could be "pushed" to operated at higher pressures, longer valve open times, etc.

I would very much like to learn more about the details of the Automag. Does anyone know what the maximum operating pressure is?

Any other comments about advanced marker designs would be greatly appreciated. I'm trying to make a good first choice for an attempted modification.

Sincerely,

Jeffrey S John
614-424-4897
johnjs@battelle.org

[Havoc_online]

You need to contact AGD(Tom Kaye), I'm sure he can tell you everything you need to know. He handles things like that too.

[Top Secret]

While TK may be the final authority on this, I'm going to offer some notes.

The RT series(RetroMag, RT, and Emag) all operate at 600+ psi all the way up to around 1100 psi. Higher pressures do not require a long valve open time to get the same job done as other markers do. I heavier projectile will require more pressure than a standard paintball shot would. The typical operating pressure of the 68 Automag is 375 psi, but this can be increased as well. I have heard accounts of some Automags shooting standard paintballs at over 500 fps(feet per second).

[FrAuStY]

I think he's wanting to know the pressure of the propelling cycle which is no more than 200 psi. The other 200 psi is there for re-charge. Although I could be wrong :rolleyes:. I did send this gentleman an email with support@airgun.com and informed him to email them with this post. WOOT!

[bjjb99]

The pressure behind a paintball fired from an automag is right around 60 psi. The 375 psi operating pressure inside the dump chamber is used to propel the bolt forward.

Johnjs wrote:
>
> The problem will be the 5 oz dart mass and goal of 300 ft/s.

How do you plan to load the dart? With most markers you'll likely be muzzle loading anything that's cylindrical in shape, unless you plan to construct a magazine-type loader.

For a muzzle-loading application, you'll want a marker that is not cocked during loading. Something along the lines of a Phantom might be well suited to your application. It's pump action, meaning you must cock the marker after each firing (just like a pump-action shotgun). You can get at both the main spring and the valve spring with relative ease to adjust the amount of gas being released behind the dart. It will run on CO2 or compressed air. You might be able to reach your 300 fps goal by using a very weak valve spring and a strong main spring, though you could run into a situation in which the cocking action of the marker actually opens the valve instead.

BJJB

[FactsOfLife]

Has anybody noticed the kinetic energy values that are going to be generated by a 5oz dart travelling at 300fps??

you're looking at roughly 436ft/lbs of impact force.

Not that I think bad guys don't deserve the welt of a lifetime but OUCHIE!

[deepcover]

I am not sure of the calculation of KE, but if its accurate, 436 ft/lbs of impact force is higher than my HK USP .45. A 5 ounce dart is insane. In fact, my shotgun with solid slugs fires slugs which are only 1 ounce, and believe me, looking at one of those slugs, its huge.

[MCollier]

Ouchies? Ouchies is getting shot in the stomach by an AK47. Ouchies is getting your throat slit, and your testacles amputated. Getting shot with a 5oz dart probrably hurts less then getting shot with an M16 Round. Those anit-american people should be thanking us for developing ways to keep them alive, so we can send them to cuba.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by MCollier
Ouchies? Ouchies is getting shot in the stomach by an AK47. Ouchies is getting your throat slit, and your testacles amputated. Getting shot with a 5oz dart probrably hurts less then getting shot with an M16 Round. Those anit-american people should be thanking us for developing ways to keep them alive, so we can send them to cuba.

relax pal, there aren't many people here on these forums who support shooting bad guys in the friggin neck more than I do.

Having said that, we are talking about a NON LETHAL implement here are we not? And being non-lethal, there's a solid chance that it'll be marketed to domestic law enforcemment for uses like crowd control, prison riots and the like. Now I am all for the liberal usage of pepper sprays, PR-24 personal batons, and any number of superb pain inducing crowd control items.

Tasers are getting better everyday, the range however is severly limited to about 25-30 yards effective distance. Cranking up the weight and speed is going to extend that dramatically. Simple retained energies will guarantee that.

But think of this, say some college crowd gets nuts after their team wins a major game or something and tears up the town(never understood rioting when your guys win but that's another subject), and the local boys are called in to shut them down without offing the lot of them. The crowd's really up and pepper spray ain't cuttin it. So you break out the high powered Taser. Some dumb college kid takes it in the melon. Whoops, he's dead or brain damaged because the formerly non lethal implement is now carrying the force of your average Louisville Slugger as swung by Barry Bonds.

Can you say lawsuit? And unfortunately, it's a much needed technology. You can't just shoot a bunch of unarmed kids who are rioting. You also can NOT put law enforcement officers in harms way because their old non lethal technology isn't cutting it anymore.

I don't have the answers, but I can see it going that way rather clearly.

and as a side note, I don't want my Marines carrying anything LESS than the most lethal implements thay can get issued to them. One dead Marine isn't worth non lethal pacification of any number of bad guys. You want to arrest them? Have the local enforcement do it. Marines shouldn't be cops.

my $.02

[deepcover]

An M16 5.56 NATO 50 gr bullet has a muzzle power of 1240 ft/lbs at the muzzle, and 930 ft/lbs at 100 yards. It drops off to 252 ft/lbs at 500 yards. An A-47 7.62 X 39 125 grain bullet has a muzzle energy of 1598 ft/lbs. But at 500 yds it has 414 ft/lbs. If you take a look at the falloff in energy in larger, heavier rounds, You notice they fall off much slower. Meaning, if the muzzle energy calculation from FactsOfLife is correct, the muzzle energy of this dart 5 oz dart would exceed the energy of an AK47 round at 500 yards. That is scary

[FactsOfLife]

you're talking about traditional projectiles fired at very high velocities that weight very little. The average 5.56(.223) bullet weighs in at 70-90 grains. (there are 7000 grains in a pound) You can juggle the variables in the KE ratio to get different numbers.


here's the formula:
Formula used:
Energy = .5 * weight * velocity^2 / 7000 / 32.175

Where weight is in grains, and velocity is in feet/second.

7000 is grains per pound, and 32.175 is acceleration due to gravity.

It can be re-written:
Energy = weight * velocity^2 / 450450

E = 2187 * 90,000 / 450450

E= 436.96ft/lbs

Shooting a 5 OUNCE projectile at 300 fps really packs a wallop. I have to imagine that the recoil from this is going to be awesome. They'll have to put a shoulder stock on it to manage it.

[Minimag4me]

i highly doubt and paintball marker would be capable of shooting that kind of dart(i assume, not math proven). A paintball weighs a small fraction of an ounce. 5 ounces is way to heavy to get anywhere close to 300 out of a current marker. That is without heavy modification(more pressure, more volume, long unported barrel, different o rings, etc) which would be difficult for most markers. Then theres the issue of feeding.

I would reccomend building a new system developed around the dart, not taking a current design. There already is a paintball(more like paintbullet) gun develoved for police/military applications by AGD.

[FactsOfLife]

shouldn't be too hard to address those issues. There's already a class of airguns that shoot much heavier projectiles, they're animal tranquilizer guns.

While I doubt that the dart it shoots weighs 5 ounces, possible but probably less, it shouldn't take much in the way fo designing to produce an air powered dart chucker like that.

And the next question I have is this:

Why would a contractor for the military post something like this in an open forum??

anybody else have that thought pass through their mind?

[Thrash]

I'm thinking that if there was 463ft/lbs, it could rip skin off or something. I could break bones and if you get shot in the neck with that you would die. I'd rather get shot with an ak47 than that thing.

[Johnjs]

First thanks for the feedback.

Now some more details. The safe thorax impact energy is near 200 ft-lb. As some of you have noted, the dart is above the limit. Two things mitigate this problem, first the dart nose will have a staged energy absorbing material that effects both the rate and area of impact loading. Second, the velocity is variable, dependent on the situation. The operator has the option to limit velocity to a lower regime. I stated the max velocity because it drives the upper limit of marker capability.

There are a lot more details, such as the impact area on the body is controlled by an intelligent sighting system to insure no head shots occur, etc.

Battelle is only developing the dart. Two sister programs are needed to develop the optimum intelligent sighting system and delivery system. We are limited to using currently available sights and markers as brassboard proof-of-principle hardware in the event no other development programs are awarded.

If no current marker can do 5oz at 300 fps (and I didn't expect they would), then we'll settle for the best available hardware. Animal tranquilizer darts is something I had not thought of, need to check that out.

Thanks again,

Jeff

[FactsOfLife]

I'm thinking that with the upper operating limit being 300fps, the effective range isn't going to be very far. Something on the order of 40 yards tops. The ballistics are going to be horrible.

[DJSOLID]

OK,OK so math isn't my forte'. I don't pretend to understand kinetic energy algorithms, but I've got a CO2 powered launcher, a chrono station and a postage scale. I carved potatos awhile, so now I've got a small pan filled with five ounce potatos, sitting in water. I've got to go get my 32oz CO2 tank filled, but when I get back... I'll commence the testing. I'm currently accepting grant money for this extremely "scientific" work I'm doing. ;)