Workhorse of a marker?................

[Johnjs]

Dear Forum Members,

The Energetic Systems and Security Technology Department at Battelle currently has a program with the Marines to develop a TaserTM dart for non-lethal incapacitation. We will be purchasing one or more of the more advanced paintball markers to use as a launcher for the dart. The problem will be the 5 oz dart mass and goal of 300 ft/s. Can anyone (AGD?)give me an idea of how much the Automag design could be "pushed" to operated at higher pressures, longer valve open times, etc.

I would like to learn more about the design details of the Automag. Any other guidance about advanced marker designs that might be good candidates for this particular purpose would be greatly appreciated.


Sincerely,

Jeffrey S John
614-424-4897
johnjs@battelle.org

[AGD]

A 5oz dart mass it going to cause you all kinds of headaches with any paintgun valve. Out military valve that shoots a very heavy 1/3 oz. projectile would be the only starting point.

Call Fabrique National in South Carolina and talk to them about getting an FN303 for testing.

AGD

[Butterfingers]

Well to push a paintball to 300fps requires around 400 psi from the automag valve system.

Technically the automag can be made much more powerful than it already is. The valve system is rated at 3000 psi Velocity is controlled by an internal air pressure regulator which increase or decreases charge pressure.

It is a dump chamber design.

This brings up a multitude of other problems such as durability issues, efficency, and ect.

Your best bet would be to follow AGD's suggestion.

You do realize that this "non-lethal" technology would be in fact lethal if it did hit a human target. A 5oz dart travelling at 300 fps would have more energy than most good sized handguns.

In which case I would suggest you start with .357 magnum blank charges for propulsion. With that mass keeping your compressed air source portable would be a problem. A 3000 psi 114ci airtank would last all of maybe 10 shots.

See the pictures posted below....

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22668&perpage=30&highlight=potato&pagenumber=2

This is what a 5 oz semi-rotten SOFT potato can do to 3/4 inch particle board. The potato disinigrated into vapor at the time of impact. The kinetic energy was still so great that it blew a hole straight throught the particle board on shear momentum alone.

[pbjosh]

A couple of thoughts:

300 fps for a 5 oz projectile is, scary. How about a lower velocity, but a projectile that is designed to 'Glide' or sustain flight. Then 100-150 fps could get the same range.

For a 5 oz projectile, unless you are talking something like a Racketball, you are looking at needing some type of foam impact front? With Tazer point inbedded? The projectile design would be dart shaped, what diameter?

I also built Breech Load Sabots years ago with Dowels and Duck tape. Yes, very low tech, but using my PGP (and holding the bolt so it wouldn't open) I could launch 1 oz plus rounds 100-150 ft with really incredible accuratecy. They went slow, but fins placed in the back to induce spin really increased range. The sabot lenght was 3" or so, out of a 6" barrel powered by a 12 gram air cylinder. I could have easily hit a moving target at 100+ ft. I might have to build one again and weight it. The speed was not lethal at all.

Josh

[Vegeta]

5 ounces... at 300 feet persecond.. is a bit... extreme? no... grousome is more like it. A non-lethal rubber bullet, wieghting no more than 500 grams travellying at 1100 fps can kill is placed in the right areas of the body, eitehr in the face/head area, or in the upper chest, stopping the heart from blunt truama. I agree with the above, best is to start out with making something on the object that ill sustain flight instead of trying to luanch this thing at people with brute force. Exactly how big is this dart? will it have some sort of case that will mnake the outside diameter .689 in.? My suggesting, if you sincerely want to use a paintball marker for this, is to make the projectile with spring loaded little wings or fins that spring out after exiting the barrel and stabilize flight. This would allow for the projectile to fly out f hte barrel at much more non-lethal speeds and still sustain a good range of flight.

[AGD]

Johnjs,

Now that I re-read your post you should know that Jaycor Military Division already developed a shotgun launched taser dart that incapacitated the offender for 15 seconds. It stuck to the person with barbed hooks. I think its on their website.

AGD

[Johnjs]

Thanks for the info. I know about Jaycor, they also have a 40mm "Sticky ShockerTM". We did the safety analysis for both the Sticky Shocker and the FN XM303.

So do you think the 303 is pushed about as far as the valve design will go without major design work?

Jeff

[AGD]

It might be possible to shoot a 5oz dart with our design but it would take a major rework. How did the dart and the XM do in your testing?

AGD

[einhander619]

Just curious, and maybe this is classified or something, but why on earth would this dart have to weigh 5 ounces? That's huge. Is it because it needs an onboard power source in order to shock someone into submission? Also, what kind of effective range are you looking for?

[Johnjs]

I'd be happy to supply additional information. Please contact me directly using the information supplied in my original post.

Thanks,
Johnjs