will this sport ever not suck?

[magc68]

can we ever play tournament paintball and have fun?

can we ever have professional refs?

we went to a 10 man tournament today. 11 really good teams showed up at GRC paintball. the refs were team diluted. most of these guys we know and have played before. we scrimmaged them 2 weeks ago and we r the new 10 man team on the block and when they didnt wipe through us they said in 2 weeks u will be f'ed. well it was true. we came today with a chance to win the event and we came out 5th. how may u ask?

asking for a paintcheck is a 1 for 1 penelty for playing on with a hit.

knealing in a paintball is equivelent to playin on and 1 for 1.

a 1 for 1 is u r out and then the person on your team in the best postion is taken out as well. no matter where he is in relationship to u. ex. a back player is called out and they take your furtherst front player.

having 8 refs on your side of the field and only 3 on the other side.

refs letting time go beyone the 15 min limit if we r in a tough spot.

refs coaching the other team

refs wiping the other team

a ref seeing u get hit in the pack but not calling u out for it for 30 seconds then calling u out and giving u a 1 for 1 for playing on

being over shot by one person in a bunkering move (13 shots) is not seen as overshooting

if u shoot a ref because he walks into your stream of paint is considered harassing the refs and u r pulled.


is this what i have come to expect from paintball. the same sort of things occured back in september during a 7 man with a diffrent reffing crew. the highlight of that event was that u could hang the flag while leaving your gun behind and still get the flag hang and not being eliminated. and a protest to this gave us a 50 pt penelty.

guess what?
we r not going back to GRC paintball ever again.
if any of u in the area were thinking of it go right ahead and share your stories with me...

grc is the only place aroudn here that has big tournaments. if we wanna play big tournaments we have to go to wpf or nppl to play.

if this is what i will expirence at every large tournament y would do i even play?

$10,000 is on the line to win and we get raped by the reffs and GRC takes $1500 of our money and thinks nothing of it.

[Dubstar112]

Wow, that sucks. I'd like to get into big tournaments, but from what your saying, seems like a waste of time and money. Where is GRC at?.. South of Syracuse? Why doesnt Fury take big tournaments...? They have a nice field from what I saw ;)

[CRiZO]

well, in response to your post:

sucks for you.

I am a blunt person.

[magc68]

im just venting and giving a warning to anyone who wants to play there is all...

[openboater]

On a simular note, My son and I went to Skirmish for this 'Big 7 man Tourney " yesterday. We went just to watch. We didn't know a single team or player, so we had no bias.

Well, I watched a ref in the hyperball field giving direction and even pointing so a player would know where his compitition was.

Many a game went on where the ref's wouldn't even venture on to the field.

After seeing all these full page add in PB2X Magazine, we thought this was to be a big event. I'll just be kind and say we should have saved the gas money. I was very disappointed. No netting, No compressor, No vendors, No loudspeaker system.........

[i-luv-my-rt]

Hey,

I actually practiced with Diluted twice, like i was playing with them not against them. They can be the coolest people until you go against them or you get on there bad side. They wont say anything off the field but once you get on they will rape you and make you pay. They are amazing players but some arent the coolest people.

I have had good and bad experiences at GRC. I watched Magc68's team go to that 7-man with a good chance to win and they got screwed by refs. Ref's are the main problem there everything else is well run.

So really i could go either way with your post. I can agree in many ways and disagree in like 1 way. If that place had certified and non-bias refs it would be the best place and most competitive on the east coast. It really sux to here that but i'll vouch for you guys that it wasnt your fault. (RECURSION IS GOOD!!!!)

[LanceDDmurdock]

It seems Recursion can't catch a break when it comes to playing at GRC, the 7-man went sour for them. and it so seems the 10-man did as well. Yet, the problems always seem to revolve around bad ref'n. Now, as i have reffed some tourney's i can understand that every now and then, some calls are hard to make / the wrong call. And every 1 does make mistakes at one time or another.
However... :

1.) Not every bad situation or argument calls for a 1 for 1 pull.
2.) Ref's should be evenly dispersed among the entire field.
3.) All Personal feelings toward ANY team should be left at the door.
4.) Professionalism HAS to be inforced. (no #3, or complaining, that means ref's or players...but give fair warning don't just pull cause a person argue's a easily mistaken call.)
5.) Unless it is a Team held event fields should have their own ref crew workin the matches. not random teams. (to avoid #3)

As a recursion team member, i see the anger. With $150 entry on the line...if u feel that u were cheated outta that money by forces outta your control (ref's), and not because your team just didn't "click" that day, your gunna be upset. Each team should decide their own fate on the field...not the ref's. But hey, to me it's water under the bridge. The damage has been done, it's time to move on. Our experiences at GRC have been completly horrible. and with a 2 hour drive at stake, it's just not worth the trip to wade thru this type of BS. I play paintball for the love of the sport, and that uncontrolable adreneline rush. not to be dicked around by power trippin ref's. Under diffrent circumstances i have not a doubt in my mind that my team would have not won, if not finished in the top 3 in this tourney.
But again...what's done is done. I am a very forgiving person, and am willing to let things go. So congrats to Team Minor Threat on the win. And i will be at Fury this sunday to have some fun. (to all who know wtf i am talking about :) )
-Peace.

[raehl]

No BS. Promise.

Also usually no prizes, but we keep the events inexpensive. Whereabouts are you guys located?

- Chris

[kosmo]

raehl, they're in Syracuse. NY is a bit far of a drive to Cheeseville...

[Ityl]

This is exactly why I sold my setup, it wasn't fun playing anymore. I loved playing tourney ball. The only reason refs needed to be on the field for me was to check me if I couldn't see a hit. I never played on with being hit. I alway called myself out if I was hit, even if a ref didn't see it. Too bad barely anyone else does this.

Especialy at GRC, they have the worst refs, unless they are on your side. The worst part about it, Rob doesn't really seem to care. So instead of taking it as part of the game, I decided I'd spend my money on things that I actually like doing. I have more fun just fooling around in my backyard speedball field playing with a talon, and it's a lot cheaper.

[xmetal2001]

Sport doesn't suck, people who are running it do.

[RT_Luver]

i believe that this sport already not sucks. sure, there's the occasionnal screw-ups, people that piss you off, and etc... but if you tune them out in your mind, this sport doesn't suk at all, IMO

[FrAuStY]

I don't want to offend anyone.. but most of the places I play, are a bunch of rich kids who have their parents buy them everything. Example.. St Augustine, Fl, Rapid Fire, a 10 year old with an Angel + 88/4500 Angel Air. All he does is strokes the trigger. Doesn't aim.. doesn't snap shoot, doesn't call himself out either.

I guess since I have purchased every gun I own with my own money it makes me take it more seriously and be more honest. Most of todays younger crowd (20 and below I don't know how old the refs were) are all about the gimme gimme gimme's, not the honest way in and out of a situation. Just like the refs at that tourney.. they were holding a childish grudge against you, and caused you to be removed from the tourney. Unfortunately the best thing to do would be go somewhere else. Or don't tourney play. I personally like going to places incognito (Camo pants and solid shirt) and just light people up. Its kind of a stress reliever. No worries about making your team lose, or not winning that 02 cocker etc (cockers..lol they gotta give these thigs away!)
Anyway... I love paintball.. everything about it, goods and bads. I think tourney play is great for those who want to win or lose. I'm in it to win everytime but if my team loses.. I'm ok with that as long as I eliminated one person from the opposing team. Thats just my .02 on the sub.

[liigod]

this is the weak link in the sport, really makes you wana quit. this is also why is support all the rednecks that play it thinking their in a war. One day a wiper is guna get beaten or killed for wiping. Actually, i think there would be MANNY less wipers if someone was made an example of.

[Scootyd]

These factors are the reason I stay in rec play. Like many people I have been invited to join a couple of small teams that are just starting out. Most of the players I observe only last in the sport for about 2 years after tournament experience.

In this forum someone polled for what the favorite type of play was and rec was the resounding winner. This industry and sport really are based on the rec player that goes out and has a good time with his buddies. Tournaments are mostly an advertising oportunity and unfortunatley poor organizations and a handfull of ill tempered players are taking away a method of spreading the word.

I ref at a local field on weekends and to see the new players come in, play hard and get hooked is a great thing to see. They rarely complain about wipers or bad reffing or throw their markers and curse.

Overall I say that if tournaments are for you, good luck and I wish you well. The sport could use 50 teams like the ironmen. Just keep in mind that it is a sport and make sure not to get trapped and cease enjoying it as such.

I say this from past experience. After 8 years of racing pro motocross I found it was a job. Lap after lap of fighting the stopwatch. I still go to the track and play but I stop as soon as I catch myself pushing.

I enjoy playing paintball and introducing new players to the sport. The overall growth of the sport will hopefully reduce the tourny problems in the future and lower everybodys costs for playing. Keep your head up and remember we Play in the woods and we Play in the tournys.

[rjvemt1]

all fields need to start treating 'reffing' more like a real job.i see refs dry fireing w/o a barrel plug in the staging areas, your fired! if i have to tell someone in the group you are reffing to put their goggles on or barrel plug in ill wright you up, two wright-ups and then your fired! i continually get complaints about you(to much time between games, coaching, un-even teams) well do some re-training, maybe a reffing workshop, if this doesnt help your performance, yup you guessed it YOUR FIRED!txpb has a couple of young men and women who are excellent reffs
They can be the coolest people until you go against them or you get on there bad side. they sound like a team of spoiled little brats

[Jack_Dubious]

Originally posted by rjvemt1
all fields need to start treating 'reffing' more like a real job.i see refs dry fireing w/o a barrel plug in the staging areas, your fired! if i have to tell someone in the group you are reffing to put their goggles on or barrel plug in ill wright you up, two wright-ups and then your fired! i continually get complaints about you(to much time between games, coaching, un-even teams) well do some re-training, maybe a reffing workshop, if this doesnt help your performance, yup you guessed it YOUR FIRED!

Hey that sounds like how a professionally run business would act...theres no room for that in paintball!! :D

rjyemt1 has the right idea.

JDub

[DarkRipper]

/marks GRC off his list of fields to play tournies at

DR

[cphilip]

Professional refs are truely the answer. Professional refs must not play for a team ANYWHERE. And be held accountable and graded. Until we get this acomplished we will be open to this kind of problem.

[magc68]

team diluted is a diablo sponsored team none the less.

[giblit]

at my last tournament i almost got in a fight because the refs sucked so much. i bunkered some guy i thought he was the last guy left so i run up bunkered him shot him 2 times on the top of the head and he said some cuss words then he called hit so i was running the flag and he shot me something like 15 shots in my back and i guess they didnt break but he called hit and thats why i didnt keep shootin so i got pulled and he got to stay in, i was mad i approached him after the game and my teammates had to pull me off of him i was so pissed

[raehl]

That tournament paintball has this crap reputation and people stay away from it because they assume it's the same everywhere. It's also sad that anyone under 20 gets painted with the wide brush.

I know it's going to sound like I'm doing advertising here (ok, so I am, heh) but tournament paintball doesn't HAVE to be like that, and it ISN'T always like that. College tournaments certainly arn't - they're more like a buncha recplayers on a concept field keeping score. We don't have wipers, the refs arn't involved in the league, and people just have good attitudes - because bad attitudes arn't tolerated. One of the better teams had a problem with a bad attitude player which ended up severely costing them at Nationals and thus ruining their season standings, and you can sure as hell bet that problem won't be repeated. It's culture too - when everyone plays straight-up ball, you don't want to be the one guy who doesn't. People watch the games, people will know if you're playing "the grey area", and they won't appreciate it - and the teams are good enough that they'll spank you whether you cheat or not anyway.

It's not just us though - I had hthe privilege of going to a Polar Bear tournament over at PGI in Wisconsin last weekend, I'd have to say I've never seen a better run, NICER tournament. The refs were on the ball and there were 48 teams there having a good time.

Maybe it's too late for most of tournament ball though - one thing the NCPA and the Polar Bear circuit have going for them is their players are new. I'd say 80% of our players are kids who start playing recball with their college club and then join the team and play OUR tournaments first, so they don't see the BS that's common in regular tourny ball so they don't learn to do it. Part of the problem in "regular" ball is people set a bad example and treat new players poorly, so the only people who stick around to keep playing are the dicks who think being a dick is ok - compounding the problem. Same effect is at work in Polar Bear - they're in MN and Northern WI, where before they got started, pretty much no one played tournament paintball - so when they did get started, all their players were new, didn't play outside the area, and again - never learned that playing like a dick was ok. If people play their first few tournaments without seeing bad behavior, when they DO encounter bad behavior they'll be able to know that it's not PAINTBALL they're watching, but immature players.


But you know, none of you have to take it. There are plenty of field owners out there who are sick of the crap, and most of them don't run tournaments precisely because they don't want to deal with a buncha whining tournament babies. Find one of them, talk to them, and run some tournaments. Don't offer prizes, make the rules really harsh on anyone who can't play clean ball, and keep at it. You'll probably start slow, but the teams who play good ball will stick around, and because your retention rate will be much better, you'll get more and more teams. I know we do 200-300% growth per year, Polar Bear has gone from something like 5 teams to 50-75 in 2-3 years. I think the "play clean ball" niche of tournament paintball, while small now, is REALLY where the people/money is. Look at all those rec-scenario players out there - it's not that they don't like to compete (they're playing paintball!), they just don't like to spend money to deal with BS. Most promoters arn't picking up on that, which is sad, because that's where the money is. Not those whining pricks who want everything handed to them - they don't even buy anything.


- Chris

[DarkRipper]

High quality statement, there Chris. Now we just need to make the niche mainstream. We won't do that as long as the Pros think it's OK to cheat to win for their sponsors, and as long as the industry pimps the Pros to sell their products.

DR

[cphilip]

I think I can vouch for Chris when he says that the College paintball tourney scene is very clean and fun. All I have seen has been so far.

[raehl]

I think there's some movement away from supporting the whole pro team mentality. The people who run paintball companies are being replaced on the field by a younger crowd, which removes some of their personal involvement in play. The businesses themselves are maturing, and paintball companies are starting to notice that you can't really sell product through sponsoring a team that most of your customers dislike. It's not just that 80-90% of paintball players don't even play tournament ball, but many of the HATE anything to do with tournament paintball because of a lot of the BS. It's becoming harder and harder for companies to justify devoting so much of their sponsorship dollars to a handful of proam teams when all of their money comes from rec players.

It's actually kinda funny if you've grown up in paintball in the college scene to look at the big wall between rec and tournament ball in the rest of the industry that people just assume is a natural part of the game, because we don't have it. In fact, we think it's rather strange, because merging recreational and tournament ball is essential to us - virtually all of our tournament players are recruited through recreational clubs, our tournament players organize recreational events and even run scenario games as fund raisers. Recreational ball isn't just important for getting new players into the game and onto your teams, they're the bread and butter of funding and sponsorship - your college doesn't care what the record of your 5-man team is if there are 200 students in your club, you'll get student activities funding because you're an activity for 200 students. You're a DRAW for students looking at attending the school, and the school is willing to reimburse you for that value. Your local field doesn't care if you're first or last at the college tournament or even ever play one if you're bringing 50 players a month out to the field to spend their money. Everywhere else tournament and rec ball seem to be entirely separate while for us they're inseprable.

That's not to say there arn't a few schools who just have tournament teams, but they don't last very long. There's just no way a 5-man team can compete against a program of hundreds of players fielding a 5-man team in the long run.

- Chris

[Ityl]

Yes there are way more rec players, but you have to remember that tournament players account for more sales.

I'd like to say that GRC isn't all bad. I've had tons of good times there. But a couple bad times usually outweigh a bunch of good ones.

[raehl]

High end $1000+ markers MAYBE. Everything else, not even close. Paint, pads, pods, packs, squeegees, markers, hoppers, tanks, et al. rec sales dwarf tournament sales. For every tournament player you see on the field there are 50 playing in their backyards. Go to a store which is affiliated with a field and ask them how much equipment and paint they sell to players they never see at commercial fields at all.

- Chris

[FutureMagOwner]

i dont get why these people bias against others and get so heated over the fact that they get their *** kicked by a better team. never had never will. i can see getting pissed a a ref being a jerk though but theres no reason they should be. this one ref really tee'd me off one time because right before we went to recycle she said "i really do hate this sport..." so im already pissed when we get to the base we are already getting shot at and gets pissed when i run off AFTER she told us we could go after we touched a bunker. she pulled me back because i was 2 inches from the thing(i was practically touching it) and i went to play because the guy right behind me just got ailed in the side of the head. she then called me out for a hit from an old game that has been dry for abot 3 hours.

[paintbattler]

no it will never suck

[Patron God of Pirates]

As it stands, Paintball is a great game, and an awful sport.

[rjvemt1]

Yes there are way more rec players, but you have to remember that tournament players account for more sales i dont understand the logic behind this statement? maybe on an individual basis,yes. the guy who plays 15+ tournements a year is gonna spend a more than i do playing 3 or 4 times a month(i pay for field time with a yearly membership and only sling 1/4 to 1/2 case a day).but if you add up the amount of money that the couple thousand, at most, 'pros' spend, not including airfare and accomodations then compare that figure to the amount of money that the HUNDREDS of thousands of us rec players spend every year. obviously the money comes from the masses! maybe the corporate sponsorship dollar would be better spent sponsoring sportsmanship oriented scenerio and big game teams where the atmosphere lends itself to the inlusion of the everyday rec player instead of the exclusion of him! new and beginnig players have to be cultivated and incouraged in order to grow our beloved game and todays tourny ball does not do that! whew, i gotta go sit down

[raehl]

I don't think it's fair to say ALL of today's tournament ball doesn't do that. NCPA events are specifically geared towards participation of new players because we HAVE to cultivate new players to exist. If the new players come to our events and don't enjoy themselves, they're not coming back, and as soon as the people we have graduate, we're done. There are some local threemans out there that are pretty good if you can find them, and to go back to Polar Bear, since they exist in an area that didn't have teams previously, they have to cultivate new players to exist as well.

It's leagues that are out trying to woo existing tournament players by offering big prize packages and tolerating their piss-poor behavior that "ruin" tournament paintball for the new player.

Of course, in the long run, you have to ask: Which leagues are going to be more successful? The ones who cater only to existing players, or the ones who make sure to appeal to new players?

There's one more point to note: It's the NEW players who spend all the money on the equipment, because they don't have it yet.

- Chris