Update on LVL10 Testing

[AGD]

Everyone,

We had several LVL10's in the field for testing last weekend and here are the quotes right from the emails.

Team Swarm, shooting two guns:
"First off with the 2 guns we had a flawless day!!!!!!!"
"Performace and no ball breaks is the ultimate goal to any gun and I believe you have found that in the level 10"
"Congrats on making the next best selling paintball gun!"

Manny practicing with Aftershock and purposely NOT using ACE:
"worked as you said, would burp, dry fire, or pop, but would not chop or break ball in breach, never broke the green marbs."
"...a few minor adjustments and i think this gun is ready to go."

AGD

[zvanut]

looks like its close to all systems go on the level 10

BTW, tom you should come visit us in the chat :)

[liigod]

sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet


no more paint like this?

[Manuel_FZR]

... good to hear this. Waiting for the Update for my two Mini´s ;)

[Bonx0007]

Awesome to hear that. Tom has a best seller!

[luke]

Awesome, can't wait for all the details.

[dropkick1]

i can't wait to get it on my micro emag, then we'l be unstoppable, muahahahahahahaha!

ken

[G-Rexx]

Tom, my offer still stands, if you still need test dummies, I'm willing to pay for the upgrade now!!!

[gibby]

OH GREAT!! ONE MORE REASON TO VISIT THE AGD STORE!!! :D

[Dzerzhinsky]

has there been an approximate price set?

[cphilip]

Late last night (well early this morning realy) in Chat...Tom came in and he mentioned the words "Superbolt II" in conjunction with level 10...what could this be? :confused:

[liigod]

a level ten emag with a superbolt that doesnt explode in it

[joeyjoe367]

GIMME!!!! :D

[AcemanPB]

......... cool

[SlipknotX556]

Word.

[BTAutoMag]

any word on the price that youi will charge for the AO testing. and nobody seened to draw up anything that would go good on the back of a bolt yet (gnome's mallet)

[rolo2169]

WHEN CAN WE ORDER.
Gina Pig

[Maghog]

Sounds great, but I still don't get it. I have never had a ball choppage probem with my mags. I might get a chop every 5000 rounds or so, if I'm unlucky. Mostly though, it's been chop free shooting for me, I wouldn't own seven mags if it weren't so.
Is there anything else that level 10 will do for me?Is it more air efficient maybe?

[Will Wood]

It will prevent people from saying "Mags are blenders"...then they will have nothing to diss, and Mags will take over the world.

[Bonx0007]

Originally posted by Will Wood
It will prevent people from saying "Mags are blenders"...then they will have nothing to diss, and Mags will take over the world.
You forgot the diabolical laugh!;)

[cphilip]

Pure speculation on my part now...

Lvl 10 is a new bolt and complete Power tube assembly (whole front SS piece). So the entire front part of the metal of the valve will need to be replaced (hence the cost of almost $100 and that would be artificialy cheap realy) abut still using your internals to place back into it. I make no guess as to the PT tip, Spring and Bumper as well as PT spacer system being the same or changing. My guess is the same except for maybe the PT tip? I dunno. I am trying to predict from little tid bits I hear. Purely speculation remember...

[lonsch]

i was at badlandz last sunday getting ready for the open and played most of the day against aftershock. i saw manny and his gun and there was no paint at all in his barrel.

also manny is a very cool guy.

[BlackVCG]

There are some other things that Level 10 does that can't be disclosed right now. They have nothing to do with ball breakage/chopping.

As for retrofitting, it can be done by anyone without special tools. It will retrofit to ALL guns and is very easy to do so. There is tuning involved to get it to work perfect.

[AcemanPB]

it does more?!? :eek:

[Dubstar112]

Yes, the level 10 will do more. It will take you to heaven! hehe.. I just got rid of my mag, im gonna buy a complete set up later. For now, im lookin at an impy. ;)

[WickeDKlowN]

what kind of tuning does it need to be perfect?

[echoes]

Tom, or anyone else at AGD, I'm not sure if you can answer this without revealing classified info, but I have a question: Right now I have bolt stick. Should I go ahead and buy a spacer kit, or will the level 10 upgrade make that unnecessary because of new components?

[krafty]

Originally posted by cphilip
Pure speculation on my part now...

Lvl 10 is a new bolt and complete Power tube assembly (whole front SS piece). So the entire front part of the metal of the valve will need to be replaced (hence the cost of almost $100 and that would be artificialy cheap realy) abut still using your internals to place back into it.

Actually, the powertube is not a user-servicable part (it's welded on every mag above level 6.5) so I doubt that a full replacement is part of it.

I'm wondering if 'tuneable' means something similar to changing spacers.

[Dzerzhinsky]

why all the secrets? I dont see why AGD wont just tell us all of its specs.....I say we send all of our magnomes into the AGD office to steal all this classified information!The suspense is killing us all, i know it is....

[Schnitzel]

they're all mental-S&M freaks. they like to hear you suffer mentally.

[minimag187]

So with the lvl 10 mod the paintball can be pinched halfway in the barrel and halfway in the feed tube and not break? Or does the mod make it so the bolt doesnt brake brittle paintballs upon impact?

[cphilip]

Originally posted by krafty


Actually, the powertube is not a user-servicable part (it's welded on every mag above level 6.5) so I doubt that a full replacement is part of it.

I'm wondering if 'tuneable' means something similar to changing spacers.

Thats why I speculated the WHOLE front half of the WHOLE valve krafty. Not just the welded on PT. See? re read it...It makes sence when you are trying to include the hold down to $100 part. Bolt alone can be done but the tip we got is they are "trying' to hold it down so its affordable. So that indicates another major part is involved see? DO I guessed the whole entire front assembly including the welded on PT. Get it? You might be right but I am going on the cost concern they have expressed and the "you can do it with common tools" part. togehter that adds up to the whole front if you wish to change the configuration of the PT. See my logic so far? Just a guess...

[the123]

After playing with this gun Sunday at practice, it will be too long before it's installed in ALL of my mags. Thats an understatement. NICE NICE NICE work Tom!

[Bonx0007]

ahhhh you used it. Tell more!!!!

[BTAutoMag]

Originally posted by AcemanPB
it does more?!? :eek:

yea its code named the swiss army project... the new lvl 10 will come with can opener, magnifing lense, knife, spoon, corkscrew...

but seriously im shocked too.

i gotta get me one of these:D

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by cphilip
Pure speculation on my part now...

Lvl 10 is a new bolt and complete Power tube assembly (whole front SS piece). So the entire front part of the metal of the valve will need to be replaced (hence the cost of almost $100 and that would be artificialy cheap realy) abut still using your internals to place back into it. I make no guess as to the PT tip, Spring and Bumper as well as PT spacer system being the same or changing. My guess is the same except for maybe the PT tip? I dunno. I am trying to predict from little tid bits I hear. Purely speculation remember...


Uh oh... Looks like butters is gonna have to whoop out the blowtorch to break the sealant in the PT threads. Yep the whole PT unscrewed itself a while back from the valve a while back. WHY WHY did I have to use red loctite during reassembly! This is gonna take alot of elbow grease and many restless nights.

Last time I tried to break red loctite I ended up melting all the internals off my PMI pure energy reg. I heated it slowly with a heat gun, no luck, then I whooped out the blowtorch, and patiently heated the thread area with that. No luck.

I started getting impatient...

I heated the thing till it was glowing and the stupid loctite still didnt break.

Then the thing went into the vice with a pair of 1.5 foot long vice grips I proceeded to lean my entire 180lb mass into the wrench until the teeth stripped the brass right off the surface of the reg cap.

Then I got really pissed and proceeded to cut the reg open with a hacksaw and pipe cutters. Wasn't fast enough...

Stupid PMI reg... If anybody wants to know how the internals of a PMI reg work ask me I finally got it open with an angle grinder.

...And I think everything is where it should be :)

[Butterfingers]

The PT is threaded on yes the whole tube section... I know because the one on my retrovalve came apart a year ago.

Im not usre if they have changed it since then the SN was VV00211

[BlackVCG]

Hold on there guys, Level 10 does not require a new valve body or PT body.

[zads27]

*Takes out bottle of truth serum and syringe*



Time to divulge the Lvl 10 secrets, BlackVCG.
*sinister laugh*


Perhaps new powertube spacers, powertube tips and superbolt? (not the body, just the internals..)

Perhaps some kind of design which reduces amount of force the bolt moves forward with, or changes the way air is released, hence the non-chopping characteristics..?

That's my best speculation, since Blackvcg said it wasn't a valve body or pt body.. the tuning part, same as regular mags, needs some adjusting. (just how different powertube spacers and on/off pins are needed to tune the mag)


My theory about the Lvl 10 before, was a new front valve body half with a short (maybe as small as half the length of current bolt, just long enough to cover feed hole in breach) powertube and bolt. Would need a new sear, but could still use old on/offs and such. Thus the dump chamber would be larger; lower pressure; less force exerted by bolt; less to no chops.
I suppose this might still be possible, using the current valve, the same very short bolt, and a metal spacer behind the blue bumper, or a really really long blue bumper, though the idea seems kinda silly. :D

I suppose the volume wouldn't be increased substantially from such a said modification, but *shrug* just my rambling idea at the moment.stop.

[Butterfingers]

You can also make the ID of the pt piston smaller hence the PT. I doubt there is any increase in chamber size. Doing so would result in shootdown just like the smart valve and we all know how good that thing was...

[steveg]

perhaps the only real difference will be a smaller stem on
the bolt and changes to the powertube tip, spacers and o-ring

the standard o-ring right now is a #010 with a nominal 1/4"
hole. at 400psi pressure that means about 19.6lbs of pressure against the bolt.

if you change the stem to the next size smaller o-ring #009
you have a nominal 7/32 id (0.219") that would have about
15lbs against the bolt.

Or about 4.6lbs less force.

the spring rate of the spring is about 19lbs/in (calculated)

the spring in compressed about 1/2" or about 8.5lbs

so the stock o-ring has 19.6lbs - 8.5lbs(spring) or about 11.1 lbs of ball crushing force.

using the same spring and smaller o-ring, 15lbs - 8.5lbs
for 6.5lbs

6.5 lbs might allow the ball to live.

So new bolt with 7/32 stem instead of 1/4
new powertube tip with matching 7/32 hole.
new spacers with 7/32 hole.
and finally an adapter to hold the #009 0-ring

this adapter will need an o-ring on the outside as well so
to accomodate that,the adapter would have to be almost as
long as the present spacers,therefore the new spacers would
be shorter than the old.

Close?

[cphilip]

OK! See how I was able to snake that fact outof them! :)

SO we know bolt and something else pretty big that woulds push the cost up to close to $100....what could it be?

[Jonno06]

i think steveg has a good idea even if that didnt come with lvl10

[joeyjoe367]

Originally posted by steveg
...6.5 lbs might allow the ball to live...



...Long enough to fly out the barrel and onto a cocker/angel/timmy/enter_gun_you_hate_right_here user, right :)

[boggerman]

Anyone else remember the thread Tom posted quite some time ago asking us if we would trade some r.o.f. for eliminating ball chops? It had something to do with a long travel bolt/pt setup. I tried to do a search but came up empty. I am just wondering if lvl10 is the result of this line of research?

[jurassic]

Originally posted by steveg
perhaps the only real difference will be a smaller stem on
the bolt and changes to the powertube tip, spacers and o-ring

the standard o-ring right now is a #010 with a nominal 1/4"
hole. at 400psi pressure that means about 19.6lbs of pressure against the bolt.

if you change the stem to the next size smaller o-ring #009
you have a nominal 7/32 id (0.219") that would have about
15lbs against the bolt.

Or about 4.6lbs less force.

the spring rate of the spring is about 19lbs/in (calculated)

the spring in compressed about 1/2" or about 8.5lbs

so the stock o-ring has 19.6lbs - 8.5lbs(spring) or about 11.1 lbs of ball crushing force.

using the same spring and smaller o-ring, 15lbs - 8.5lbs
for 6.5lbs

6.5 lbs might allow the ball to live.

So new bolt with 7/32 stem instead of 1/4
new powertube tip with matching 7/32 hole.
new spacers with 7/32 hole.
and finally an adapter to hold the #009 0-ring

this adapter will need an o-ring on the outside as well so
to accomodate that,the adapter would have to be almost as
long as the present spacers,therefore the new spacers would
be shorter than the old.

Close?
Steveg has I believe hit the nail on the head. The simplicity of it all if true is pure genius!!
Also a stronger or longer spring would lessen the impact of the bolt on ball. Or a very light bolt with original spring!! This was something that Tom discussed awhile back!

[zads27]

New Superbolt - ~60-70
store.airgun.com prices:
bolt spring - 3
Powertube O-ring - 1
Powertube tip - 10
Bolt Bumper - 2
Powertube spacer kit - 12
Powertube tip o-ring - 1

Total: $89-99,
putting it right in the range that people are talking about.



I figure that this has to be it, since the valve body/powertube isn't being changed in Lvl 10;
the bolt and powertube related parts are basically the only inter-changable parts between the standard/rt/retro valves;
Tom said that it would retro fit to all existing AGD markers.

[cphilip]

Good figurin but...They are "trying" to keep it under $100 as they say. To make it doable for all the customers. Indicating they will be close to taking a loss at their costs which are under the msrp's you listed. So no you cannot figure on that stuff to explain it all. I think!

[PV=nRT]

okay, first all the secrecy regarding lvl 10 can be for the sake of confidentiality or, to build up hype among the user base, like it is certainly doing ;) also, the price will most likely be less than what u predicted because usually when u buy more it costs less. if they are all packaged together, it will cost less than if u bought all the parts individually ...

[joeyjoe367]

...you know I was thinking... What would be cool is if there was some sort of adjustable-power-tube so that you didn't have to use spacers anymore...

bolt starts sticking? just twist a knob

leaking before shots? twist a knob :)

THat'd be cool, but probably a bit more than I could hope for.

TOM! lvl 11 IDEA!!!!! :D

[Jack_Dubious]

New Superbolt - $60-70
bolt spring - $3
Powertube O-ring - $1
Powertube tip - $10
Bolt Bumper - $2
Powertube spacer kit - $12
Powertube tip o-ring - $1


The look on the guys face when you rip 20bps without a break - PRICELESS


JDub

[cphilip]

This is so much fun now I don't even want to know the truth! Automag foreplay! :D

[Jack_Dubious]

Originally posted by cphilip
Automag foreplay! :D

I dont know why but that comment disturbs me. :D


JDub

[cphilip]

Admit it...it excites you jack! ;)

[Oregon_pb_]

Give me a C&C Blue or Dark Green Extreme with ACE, lvl 10, and just tell me who to call.


I'll be ordering one of these puppies within 2 months of there release.


Anyone care to speculate about the price of all this? I would expect for a Standard Extreme no C&C around $1000. For C&C $1100-1250.

[vaypourus]

Is there any word if it will work with the Smartmag Valve? I don't see why it wouldn't, but would the enlarged air chambers change its performance?