To shoulder or not to shoulder... that is the question

[BTAutoMag]

ive heard different people say different things. i dont like to shoulder bacuase i ofter get flanked and i like to be able to snap shoot.

[Tactical Neural Implant]

Well, I don't always shoulder my marker, but I'll tell you why I do sometimes. Accuracy. That's just basic marksmanship. A more stable platform to shoot from. I don't know that it actually helps in paintball because markers aren't as accurate as firearms, but thats why I do it. (like when longballing)

[Ultimator]

Aren't as accurate of firearms? I know I'm going on movies and I shouldn't be, but everytime I see a machine-gun in a movie, bullets are flying everywhere and not at one concentrated point.

[paintbattler]

i used to put my tank ONTOP of my shoulder. that was ofcourse when i didnt have my cradle and z-grip

[WickeDKlowN]

i put my tank ontop of my shoulder for now. but i got a shocktech drop on the way :)

[BTAutoMag]

oh come on does anyone else not shoulder???? one of the main reason my beast looks the way it does is so i can hold it without shouldering it.

[shartley]

Aren't as accurate of firearms? I know I'm going on movies and I shouldn't be, but everytime I see a machine-gun in a movie, bullets are flying everywhere and not at one concentrated point.
That is because most machine guns are designed as suppressive fire weapons. They are made to spray bullets. You can actually shoot a single shot and it will be quite accurate, but at full auto they spray. This is so they can cover a larger area. To have a machine gun be TOO accurate is a flaw in design and actually not liked, it does not allow you to use the weapon as it was intended to be used.

Paintball Markers on the other hand are used as both suppressive fire “weapons” and single point weapons. Different people have different playing styles. And how your style of play and setup are, will help determine whether you shoulder of not. I shoulder my Marker, but do not rely on that alone. It really depends on the situation and the moment. Adaptability is what makes a great paintball player…..

But when it all comes down to it, what works best for the individual is what IS best. :)

[wyn1370]

I don't even shoulder when I'm playing back.

[Patron God of Pirates]

In my typical shooting stance I wrap my left arm around the bottom front of the marker with my hand on the back of the tank. This gives me an ultra stable firing platform and a low profile for easy warp feed leans.

Other than that I do whatever the situation calls for.

[FutureMagOwner]

makes my arm hurt after a while so i only do it for the first 2 games at most

now i dont at all since i put my drop on backwards :D

[slayer]

Originally posted by shartley

This is so they can cover a larger area. To have a machine gun be TOO accurate is a flaw in design and actually not liked, it does not allow you to use the weapon as it was intended to be used.


Can you explain this aspect more? I find it strange that making a gun TOO accurate is a flaw. Is this to increase the coverage size of an area?

[shartley]

Can you explain this aspect more? I find it strange that making a gun TOO accurate is a flaw. Is this to increase the coverage size of an area?
Yes, that is it exactly. It is to increase the area the gun will cover with NO movement of the weapon. This allows the user to better use the Ammo they have as well as use it for actual suppressive fire. Heck if all the rounds went in one spot, all you would need is ONE shot.

For example, if you have a full auto and want to cover a trail, and it has a given width, you can set up your machine gun to point in that direction and it will spray the entire trail (depending on the width) without any major movement. However, if you have a machine gun (which the British had.. don’t recall the name) that was just too accurate, all the bullets would simply shoot down the middle of the trail in a single path. To cover the whole trail, they would have to manually move the gun a great deal.

I am sure you can see how this would be a pain at night, even with a Traversing and Elevation device on it. (For those unfamiliar, those are the things that attach to the machine gun tripod and the bottom of the gun that allows the user to move the weapon by turning a couple knobs. It allows you to cover areas at night when you can’t actually see anything. You have the clicks and turns mapped out in the fighting position and simply move the T&E to the correct setting to cover a designated area.)

I hope this better explains how being too accurate (in the case of a machine gun) can be a flaw. If you make them too accurate, they can become counter productive.

[Schnitzel]

z-grip + DZ II = no shouldering

[obsolete898]

Yes, I don't see why you wouldn't.

[liigod]

i ALWAYS shoulder my marker. 95% of the balls i shoot are from snap shooting. there is never a reason not to. Do you wana hit that person or not, fool!

[Xzion]

I ususally don't shoulder the marker, but when I do need to, the tank is more against the center of my chest, since im tilting hte marker because of my Warp Feed, it depends really on what the situation is, sometimes I do 'shoulder' it and sometimes I dont.

[StuDawggie]

Originally posted by wyn1370
I don't even shoulder when I'm playing back.

And I thought I was the only back player who didn't shoulder.


I don't know about the rest of you who don't shoulder, but I just don't like the feel of the tank resting on my shoulder.

[MagMan5446]

Puts your hopper up too high for me...

[personman]

I cant even see shouldering.. no way I could do it.. I just keep my tank tucked in nice and tight.

[pip_999]

im right handed and waht i do
is rest the tank on my upper arm
and wrap my arm around so i am basically faning the trigger

its not shouldering
but its damn close and comfortable

[Kaiser Bob]

Well I cant imagine NOT shouldering, the only time i dont is off the break when shouldering would slow you down, and then its SOOO hard to keep within a shooting lane. It just feels wrong.

[zads27]

Originally posted by Ultimator
Aren't as accurate of firearms? I know I'm going on movies and I shouldn't be, but everytime I see a machine-gun in a movie, bullets are flying everywhere and not at one concentrated point.


Basically, Shartley covered most of it..
Another aspect of a firearm is the recoil characteristics. Different full-auto (including burst fire) firearms react differently under recoil due to ammunition, type of action, weight, and balance of firearm and such, so each firearm has its own personality.

Operators who use their firearms as their lifeline (read: armed forces) train with their primary weapons not just for fun, but because they need to learn how it reacts and how to compensate for its recoil and such. While I personally almost always shoulder my marker, and always shoulder my long firearms... I think what is more important in paintball is that you practice and learn your marker, not so much to compensate for recoil, but to have down exactly how it moves and feels, in game.

Recoil is a large aspect of firearms, and while I don't want to go find my ballistics charts, they fire projectiles 1000-3500+ fps.. so the recoil is what throws many bullets off of the intended path..

As for shot for shot accuracy, most battle rifles are capable of about 1MOA.. one inch group at 100 yards.
Me, behind my marksman ("sniper") rifle averages a 5 shot grouping in ~1" at 300 yards, but this is because it is semi-automatic and "without" the effects of recoil.

Sorry for the massive tangent, it's 3:24 am, I can't sleep, and I'm bored.stop.

[davej946]

I gots to shoulder for "accuracy". Just my 2¢

Later ~ Jonesie

[FaSSt]

Shouldering is important in snap shooting, because maintaining the position of the gun in the same position in relation to your body helps immensely in training "muscle memory". Shouldering is not important when hosing an area, like a back player might. Lastly, Warp Feeds present some funky shooting positions, particularly when in shooting on the side that the Warp is mounted on, so sometimes shouldering is not possible.


An aside:

PLEASE STOP USING THE WORD OPERATOR! It's sooooo overused by everyone from Boy Scouts on up that it's getting pathetic.

[WebShock]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shartley

Yes, that is it exactly. It is to increase the area the gun will cover with NO movement of the weapon. This allows the user to better use the Ammo they have as well as use it for actual suppressive fire. Heck if all the rounds went in one spot, all you would need is ONE shot.

W R O N G




I shoot a machine gun for a living. As a US Army Soldier, we are taught to shoot in controlled bursts. Granted, back in vietnam, the spray and pray was in full effect. These days you are unauthorized to shoot more than 3 tracers downrange ( in a machine gun belt, the 5th round is a tracer round, a round that glows and helps you aim.) As an instructor and a expert marksman I can tell you, the movie myth of shooting a continueous salvo of rounds without an end will do nothing but make your barrel glow bright red and eventually melt before your eyes. Don't believe everything you see in the movies. A machine gun shot without a tripod (referring to the T&E) is really really hard to control due to the insane recoil. Most of the time a squad level machine gun is on a traverse and elevation mechanism is during the zero of a night vision device of at the range during scope daylight zero'ing. If the machine gun is not mounted on a vehicle, they extremely hard to control and are mandated to be shot in short controlled bursts.

[shartley]

huh? where are you basing this from?
Originally posted by shartley

Yes, that is it exactly. It is to increase the area the gun will cover with NO movement of the weapon. This allows the user to better use the Ammo they have as well as use it for actual suppressive fire. Heck if all the rounds went in one spot, all you would need is ONE shot.

W R O N G




I shoot a machine gun for a living. As a US Army Soldier, we are taught to shoot in controlled bursts. Granted, back in vietnam, the spray and pray was in full effect. These days you are unauthorized to shoot more than 3 tracers downrange ( in a machine gun belt, the 5th round is a tracer round, a round that glows and helps you aim.) As an instructor and a expert marksman I can tell you, the movie myth of shooting a continueous salvo of rounds without an end will do nothing but make your barrel glow bright red and eventually melt before your eyes. Don't believe everything you see in the movies. A machine gun shot without a tripod (referring to the T&E) is really really hard to control due to the insane recoil. Most of the time a squad level machine gun is on a traverse and elevation mechanism is during the zero of a night vision device of at the range during scope daylight zero'ing. If the machine gun is not mounted on a vehicle, they extremely hard to control and are mandated to be shot in short controlled bursts.

LOL Thank you very much. I too was an instructor and expert marksman (with many weapons). You fail to even know who I am or what I have done? I am a former soldier for one thing (most here on AO know that). And what do I base this on? Movies? Not likely. From the truth, and years of service.

Yes, you want controlled bursts. But you want them to be controlled in an area, not on ONE point. And as an instructor you should know this. Who said anything about continuous fire? Not me, that is for sure. You want to aim your weapon on a spot and know that your bursts will form a pattern and cover a given area. THUS giving you better use of your ammo than if they ALL went into the SAME spot. The purpose of a machine gun is different than a rifle.. and you should know this.

You do a fine job of stating the obvious, but saying what I wrote was WRONG is not correct. There are also many types of machine guns, and are you saying that an M60 is hard to control unless it is on a Tripod with T&E? LOL Come on.. that is just not true. It is easy to control using JUST its bipod, or if need be in very short bursts from the hip (again.. ONLY if need be.. such as when dismounting). Now if you are talking about the M2, it is a different story.

Also what you are “mandated” to do in training, and what you would (or may do) when under fire are totally different. But it sounds good. It is also to keep your weapon from overheating (as you stated) and to conserve ammo… but that has NOTHING to do with the “coverage” caused by the fact that the weapon is not designed to be pin point accurate when used in full-auto.

I would advise letting this go. You clearly took what I wrote and are now trying to make it look like I said something I most definitely did NOT say. You bring up issues that have nothing to do with WHY a machine gun is built the way it is… which is what I was explaining.
:rolleyes:

(added: and the tripod and T&E are actually not always used together… and the T&E is NOT used to make it “easier” to simply “control” the weapon. The T&E is used to aim the weapon at lanes of fire or targeted areas when you can not physically SEE them (such as at night or inclement weather). This is done by using it in conjunction with a range card and map, and pre-planned positions aimed at by knob clicks and bar numbers. That is why in the daylight or when needed, you can simply flip a little leaver and disengage the whole T&E for rapid aiming at things you CAN see.)

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by obsolete898
Yes, I don't see why you wouldn't.

What he said.

DR

[WebShock]

heh i never meant to get your blood pressure up.

I never mentioned anything about a m60 being hard to control on a t&e. thats childs play.

I meant a machine gun on a bipod :D

what i shouldve asked is, what regulation do you derive your knowledge on, instead of challenging you I would like to know what branch of service you are trained on. US Amry doctorine and Marine (also navy) can have many diffrent aspects and technique all acquiring the same effect.

Reading over your post i can see how i misinterpreted what you said. For that I apologize, still reading over all the posts it seems that you and I are trying to make the same point, just verbalizing it diffrently.

[shartley]

United States Army.