Single Trigger Emag?

[Paul La Rue]

What are the chances of us seeing a single trigger Emag sometime in the future?

I know the magnet is in the middle of the trigger, which might be a bit of a problem.

I'd pay good money for a single trigger frame...

[nutz]

slim to none and slim left town :D

[Paintballer86]

Originally posted by nutz
slim to none and slim left town :D
HE HE :D

[Rynoboy06]

I heard someone, I think it was Manike, offer to make a single trigger frame for $5000...let him know if you're still interested. If you do a search, there was a big thread on this awhile ago.

[p8ntballa]

I bet I could make one for 5000$

[pip_999]

post u pon pballcanada
im pretty sure that jeff can make ya one
LOL

and i will make it for 4999!!!

[liigod]

like a fat kid in dodgeball, that ideas out! Dont be a fool, stay in skool!

[DarkRipper]

Yeah, and this is one reason why I don't use an emag anymore. Same with the Uprising cocker frame.

Listen to what the public wants, don't ridicule them.

Not all of us are fooled by the 2x triggers on electro (and lets face it, that's the whole point of the emag... you don't buy an emag to fire it in RT mode) hype.

If a company comes out with a 1x, then they get my business.

It's not that hard, and the offer to make one for 5k is ridiculous and insulting.

DR

[Lone Gunman]

Actually Dark, I think most people use their Emag in hybrid mode.

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by Lone Gunman
Actually Dark, I think most people use their Emag in hybrid mode.

Really?!?

I didn't know that.

DR

[Rynoboy06]

I didn't make the 5K offer. The idea behind the original joking offer was that it would take excessive amounts of money to make a high quality frame, what with messing around with it long enough to get all the sensors and magnets adjusted correctly, and the final version milled out. You could try finding a custom house willing to make an attempt on it, but it would probably make more sense to try for a single trigger to put in the double frame. Maybe after everything else is settled down, IE extreme, new Zgrips and the supermag bodies, you could try getting 100+ people willing to preorder and you could make a serious request to AGD for one. It's not ridicule of you or anybody - I'd buy a single-trigger frame for less than $150, but the odd of one getting made are, well, laughable at this point.

[Temo Vryce]

Why not just cut the bottom of the trigger off just below the magnet?

[RT_Luver]

this has come up a couple times and to put it gently...the answer is no. unless a MOB of people come up to Tom throwing their money at him....he isn't going to make a single trigger E-mag. The research and design costs are very high and the truth is the demand for double triggers us MUCH MUCH higher then single, but you could get a blade trigger. it's sorta like a long extended single

[DarkRipper]

Hence I won't buy the product again. I'm sure that AGD doesn't care, that's their decision. I wonder how many other people are not buying emags because they want a single frame?

You don't NEED a 2x on an electro.

DR

[E==Mag MAN]

most people shoot their e-mags on hybrid.... ELECTRO!!!!!!! but maybe im one of the strange e-mag owners

[RT_Luver]

I might be missing something...but why not just pull the trigger with thee top part of the trigger and put your middle finger somewhere else...eh...

[E==Mag MAN]

RT_luver that would be commom sense.....jk'ing but i do think thats a dumb reason not to shoot a electro.

[manike]

Originally posted by DarkRipper
It's not that hard, and the offer to make one for 5k is ridiculous and insulting.

If it's not that hard DR then why not do one for yourself?

The offer to make one for 5k is not ridiculous (although it was done as a joke). That was for a one off CNC milled frame, not some modded or hacked about standard frame, but a proper production like unit, since there was only one person that wanted one. If there are now two of you it would be about 2,500 each :)

In fact taking into account the time and work required for an e-mag frame including modelling it up in 3D, cnc programming, set up work and machine time for a batch of 1. (It would require 4 set ups on a 3 axis machine and at least 2 on a 5 axis machine). Then that is actually cheap for a single frame at my usual rates and judging by what CNC mill time and tooling costs are.

That's why unless there is a demand for significant numbers that it is not worth doing. The reason frames can and are sold for less is that all that design time and programming costs and set up costs can be spread over multiple units and thus it costs just a fraction of that cost for each unit. (also the E-mag frame has to be the most complex frame ever designed, sack the engineer! ;) it probably takes 5 times as long to machine with twice the set ups than an Angel LCD style frame, which is a much simpler design). It must cost a fortune in mill time to make every E-mag frame.

You know John Rice reckons that every new milling design they make for an Angel body costs them around £15,000 to develop! (and that's £'s guys not $$$) Considering the work I put into the C&C Extreme I can understand that (my efforts for the C&C would total somewhere around that on this first model, but would be cheaper now we have made jigs and prepared a little for the kind of work).

Why exactly do you want a single trigger frame? for looks or function?

I have made and shown photo's of a frame that will allow you to put your second finger behind the trigger. And you could run it with a cut down trigger so to most extents and purposes it would function like a single trigger frame and allow you to use it like one. The frame I made also allowed you to hold the grip comfortably with three fingers below the guard and one on the bottom of the trigger blade? Would either of thess options suffice for your needs?

Other than that, prove that there is sufficient demand to suplly single trigger frames or start saving, for you I'd give a 10% discount ;)

If you didn't mind having a seperate aftermarket added trigger guard then I could maybe CNC cut down the old frame and sort something out for a couple hundred bucks (still all CNC milled). Or you could get an Airsmith with a manual mill to do something similar for much less. Those are your options as I see them at the moment.

Sucks being in a minority huh? I've always wanted people to make sports cars big enough for me to drive... I don't fit in the demographics (or the cars!) as I am too tall and thus there are only a few places I am willing to spend my money, I doubt Honda will suddenly start bulding an S2000 for the few of us over 6'5" that want one though however much we ask because it's just not worth it to them. T'is the way of the world.

Demand and Supply.

manike

[manike]

Just looking at a stripped frame in front of me...

DR if you didn't mind the guard being a seperate piece attached via small bolts (a la the race Grip frame) then I could cut a grip down very nicely and proffessionaly on the CNC mill for you and make a trigger guard piece to fit.

Still wouldn't be that cheap, but less than making a whole new frame! And I think I could make it look pretty good still... (again would be cheaper to get someone to do it with a manual mill but not as nice a result).

Now if only I could find someone who would stretch an S2000 for me :D

manike

[nutz]

manike.. i could try make one in metals 2 next year or i could take independent study next (we have 4 2 axis CNC machines and one 3 axis CNC machine) It would be very tough for me. I took metals 1 this last semster and we made stuff like darts on the lathe and i made a picture frame on the CNC machines. Even these were tough to draw up on Master Cam which is what we run. Guys like u, manike, definitly have a tough but great job.


on a different note cant there be a custom single trigger made for the frame used now with the magnets in the right place im sure it would work fine

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by manike

Why exactly do you want a single trigger frame? for looks or function?



Function.

You don't need a 2x on an electro.. all the people have been fooled over the years to think that it shoots faster. Well, it doesn't. You don't need a longer fulcrum to break a sear with less pressure... it's a mouse click.

Next, when I move, I want the maximum amount of fingers on the frame for control. I don't want some sort of thing where it's a finger behind a long trigger on the frame, what's the point of that?

No. And don't say I'm in the minority, I'm merely the one who said something.

DR

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by manike


If it's not that hard DR then why not do one for yourself?



Why the semi-insulting tone, Manike? I'm not sure it's necessary.

I'm not asking/begging for one for other reasons with the emag...

The fact that I no longer own an emag isn't related to AGD not making a single frame for it.

It's manufacturer's attitudes that we all want 2x triggers and they aren't interested in making a frame for the people that don't that keeps me going to the makers that DO cater to the playing base.

How hard is it to design a frame that has a removeable guard?

That's what Race did. Well, you can take it off, and if you had a single guard and trigger you could have a single trigger race.

WDP should have done that, instead they made some sort of pirate cutlass thing that's even more ridiculous than the former 2x frame they had!

They started with 1x.... based on WDP's own conviction that the first angel was perfect the way it was, and needed no upgrades, then why switch to 2x? Hype.

Finally.... no. I refuse to put my money into the design, I'm the CONSUMER. Companies should pander to me, not the other way round. Some of you seem to have lost that concept.

It's my dollars/pounds that keep them running.

You can all poo-poo me if you like. I know what I know, and have made up my mind.

If you don't like that, then that's too bad. I hope you take the time to try a single frame electro sometime and see for yourself.

DR

[Paul La Rue]

what's up guys?
This seems like a really odd subject to start a flame war over.

Some people prefer a single frame (I being one of them), what's the point of jumping on people for their preference?

I find it a little ironic that AGD was one of the last companies to put a double trigger on thier markers (and the Automag really did need it) and now there's no way in hell to get a single trigger on their top end marker.

[FaSSt]

Listening to advice and taking it are two different things. AGD should do what maximizes its profits in the long run, and I’m sure that making non-popular frames (remember the Z-grip) is not a path to financial success.

How prevalent are single-trigger frames on any model of electro? Even electros that TWIBs may use ;)

I do like the double-trigger frame on my Emag, because if there is one electro that can justify having it (due to at least the ability to use it in manual mode), than this one is it. On my Bushmaster, on the other hand, I am indifferent to the fact that it’s a double.

Unlike a lot of people who quote how fast they can pull a trigger, I have come to realize that I can’t. I downright suck at trigger speed regardless of trigger configuration. I doubt that a double frame, especially on an electro, significantly changes that. But let’s face it – it does not hurt much, either.

Paintball guns, despite apparent similarities, have so many differences in handling characteristics from real firearms that any comparisons are moot. Among other things, the lack of any appreciable recoil negates the need for an absolutely rock solid grip. So you are left with…market demand. And the market wants, nay, demands, double frames. Is this demand rational or irrational? It just IS. Single frames, along with a list of other things that may sell in small quantities, do not make business sense. AGD is not a small custom shop in paintball terms, nor is it non-responsive to customer feedback. And as cool as Recegun frames are, they are quasi-custom, and definitely custom when compared to an Emag.

Most people fail to realize what the true costs associated with any given stupid little part may be. You have to design, test, manufacture, quality control, carry or distribute, repair, etc. it, not to mention that you have to train your staff to do all of the above, then possible try to position the part (or assembly) in the market, and then…. Maybe I just live on a different planet, but prototyping (and that’s essentially what you are doing here) is damn expensive. If somebody needs a custom part, go to a custom shop.

DR, I’m sure that somebody like Doc Nickel could fabricate one for you. Of course, if you are bemoaning AGD’s customer service, you may just as well not even try any custom airsmith, especially one who could be trusted to not botch the project for you. Put into that context, manike’s $5000 offer, even if in jest, seems like a very reasonable price, because you know that it would work and be on time.

If the above seems a bit rambling, it’s due primarily to the amazingly potent farts one of my Rottweilers keeps laying - I shouldn’t have switched her brand of food. Of course that’s probably more information than I needed to share…

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by FaSSt

DR, I’m sure that somebody like Doc Nickel could fabricate one for you. Of course, if you are bemoaning AGD’s customer service, you may just as well not even try any custom airsmith, especially one who could be trusted to not botch the project for you. Put into that context, manike’s $5000 offer, even if in jest, seems like a very reasonable price, because you know that it would work and be on time.


Again, I don't personally care if the emag ever does, I'll never own another. I'm just saying that everyone here making the assumption that noone wants one or that it's not a viable option are incorrect. I'm irked that it would have taken what? Another hour or so to make the trigger guard and trigger interchangeable, and they didn't bother.

Why? Because all the little kids were convinced by the aftermarket parts companies that they HAD to have 2x triggers for their new electros back in 98, and NOW that's all you can freaking get anymore.

Well, they're 1. ugly and 2. unnecessary. The mag (in original format) was quite in need of a 2x, simply from the physics of its design. Modern electros (with the possible exception of the emag due to its ability to go manual) don't NEED a 2x trigger. I feel that it should be optional, and making snide comments about wanting something and never getting it aside (IE that car/motorcycle whatever the hell Manike was talking about), the world is driven by customer demands, and if the companies can't keep up with demands due to what they say is insufficient demand or lack of funds for R&D, then they'll lose some of that possible player base.

For instance: When I wanted an e-cocker, I looked around at all the available ones. I wanted a single (which due to the current hype climate is hard to find, of course) and the only one that was even willing to discuss it (in emails) was Racegun in Denmark. The US made part (Centerflag's frame) was (to quote) "never going to have a single, they just weren't going to do it".

Well, guess who got my 500 dollars? That's right. If you don't think that's significant, then you're mistaken. I buy THOUSANDS of dollars in gear a year... there are many like me that don't post here and you'll never meet.

To say that we're an insignificant minority is foolish and living under a rock.

We are consumers and we want what we want, and we're NOT going to pay 5000 dollars for it.

The companies need to clue in on that. Look at the matrix... enough people complained/asked/etc, and there is now a single frame for it. The matrix is a competitor to the emag, nicht wahr?

Wake up.

DR

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by FaSSt

Paintball guns, despite apparent similarities, have so many differences in handling characteristics from real firearms that any comparisons are moot. Among other things, the lack of any appreciable recoil negates the need for an absolutely rock solid grip.

Sorry for the double quote, I felt this needed its own answer:

I'm not sure where you're getting this, so I'll just assume you're putting words in my mouth.

I want a single trigger frame because I can wrap more hand around the frame when I move... it's a simple concept. Most 2x trigger frame designs give you about 1.5 inches at the bottom to grip by.... given that if you're moving and you know how to play, you'll be moving (unless you're shooting while you move, a viable scenario) and sliding into a bunker with your other hand in front of your face to catch bounces that could break on your goggles then I want to be able to have the maximum grip on the pistol frame of my marker. I know you can grip it by the back of the marker etc but I want to be able to swing it up immediately into firing position. There are many times where you will hold your gun with one hand on the field, for instance shoving a sup air bunker aside for that angle... what's more stable? 3 fingers on the frame or 1 on the frame and the rest on the trigger?
Right.

Holding a gun by 1.5 inches of frame as opposed to 3+ inches isn't in the cards for me, especially when there's NO need for the extra huge trigger guard or trigger getting in the way.

It has nothing to do with making a more stable shooting platform, and very little to do with the physics of real guns.

[PowerFedMag]

For the E-Mag, I say 2x trig is essential, I love it. Use both fingers and just run across the trig and get insane ROF's (not in hybrid either).
latez

[E==Mag MAN]

Dark Ripper im not flaming you just bringing this to your attention. I personally would like a single trigger frame but im not goin to bother.

But you say enough people complained about wanting a single trigger frame for the matrix. Well the matrix frame is interchangable with angel...there allready are single trigger frames for matrix........Why do you think they met this demand so easily:) just a thought

[Ov3rmind]

But you say enough people complained about wanting a single trigger frame for the matrix. Well the matrix frame is interchangable with angel...there allready are single trigger frames for matrix........Why do you think they met this demand so easily just a thought

Well, not exactly. the Matrix and Angel trigger frames are very similar in design, practically the same. However, they're not interchangeable, unless some modfications are made to the frame. What he was talking about (I think), is the single trigger frame that TMC made for the Matrix.

I personally use single trigger frames exclusivly now. There's really nothing specific or fact based for it, I just find them more comfortable to hold. Unfortunately, I doubt an single trigger E-Mag frame will be coming out, due to obvious reasons mentioned earlier. That's really too bad, because that is really the only thing keeping me from getting an Extreme later this year. Instead, I think I'm going to settle for a Viking (God bless AKA, you can order 'em with single or double triggers, and stick triggers in the near future).

[E==Mag MAN]

Okay, first off i almost bought a matrix..second my teammate shoots one...the frames are interchangable. second coming from a guy with a spyder.. if you had the marker then maybe i would believe you. BUt i had one in my hand to buy then decided not to i did my research. The frames are interchangable thats why the demand was met

[Fred]

If I ever bought an Emag, i would take a single trigger over a double, but that's me.

I also like the point made about holding on with 3 fingers and shooting with 1. It makes sense to me, and is one of the reasons why I prefer single triggers (even on fully mechanical markers).

I think a single trigger Z grip would be cool to see too... :)

---Fred

[DarkRipper]

Well, whatever the reason for The Matrix Center coming out with the frame, it is OUT there for people who want it.

It sort of negates the whole theory that companies don't care what the public says, doesn't it?

DR

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by PowerFedMag
For the E-Mag, I say 2x trig is essential, I love it. Use both fingers and just run across the trig and get insane ROF's (not in hybrid either).
latez

There are many people that would say that ROF isn't the point... it's accuracy. I can fire 10 bps (if I really try) with a single... do you know how much paint that is?

That's PLENTY. Past that it's overkill, even on a run out shooting a lane.

I can snapshoot 5 rounds in a second, and then I'm in.

Why do I need to snap shoot 10 rounds in a second?
I don't.

Hence, any real or PERCEIVED (note the caps) increase in ROF is pointless anyway... the guns already shoot fast enough that whether you have a single or a double, you will have sufficient firepower to do your job.

It boils down to aesthetics and grip room for better control of the marker whilst moving.

Well, for me anyway. But what do I know?

DR

[WARPED1]

I prefer single triggers,so do about 50 guys I play with.Maybe I'll get my gun guru to make me one when I get another E mag(the one I has was stolen 20 minutes after I bought it!:mad: )I fire 11 bps on a Tribal with single trigger.I don't believe the hypr that a double trigger is faster.

[-§on-]

I would Give my right nad for a single trigger Emag. A lot of people would take Single over double any day, considering if they are used to firing any other kind of REAL gun. Thats why I like single better than double.

[Paul La Rue]

Wow, looks like we're getting some good feedback on people wanting single triggers...

[Ov3rmind]

Yeah, but it'll take many more people, and much more badgering to make Tom do a single trigger frame. Maybe someday.

[WARPED1]

I'm going to have my favorite guy over at www.fearfactorypb.com to do it,he says he will try anything.I'm already going to commision him to modify an IR3 frame with a single trigger on my Tribal.

[Panzerr]

I would like a single trigger emag as well.

[hitech]

Originally posted by manike

If you didn't mind the guard being a separate piece attached via small bolts (a la the race Grip frame) then I could cut a grip down very nicely and professionally on the CNC mill for you and make a trigger guard piece to fit.

What are the odds that you could get this included in the design of the stock frame? Then the Emag could easily have an optional single trigger. :D

[Manuel_FZR]

I also would prefer a single frame.
I play single frames on both of my Mini - for me, the gun feels better in my hands with three fingers holding it.
A singlefingerframed Xtreeme - this would be verry cool ;) . It would be great, if it would be offered as an option.

[WARPED1]

Well,damn,original mags were single trigger,then someone said double was faster(which in my opinion ISN'T),and soon everybody and his brother was making one.:(

[magmonkey]

I can probably build a slightly longer single trigger if there is interest in them email me

[manike]

Just got back from Paris, where I was showing Peugot/Citroen Design facility how to do some machining work. So I think I am pretty qualified to talk on this subject of design and manufacturing :)

DR, my comment to you to 'make one yourself' was in reference to my telling you what the design and development cost would be (for me to do it from scratch, it would be different if AGD decided to do it) and then you saying it was 'ridiculous and insulting'. I think you should research the cost of such things before you talk as if you know. Chill :)

What is ridiculous is your thinking it would only take another hours worth of work to create a frame which would be changeable from single to double trigger. That is laughable, especially when put into the context of a repeatable product CAD designed and with production intent. There is a significant amount of work more to draw up the options, the extra parts (including single and double trigger blades), the CNC programs and to administer it all. There is a significant extra cost and logistics required for the manufacturing of a 'convertible frame', there is extra costs for the assembly work... there are so many costs which you as a consumer with your demands do not, or do not want to, recognise.

It is not a cheap or easy thing to do. And there has to be a demand for someone to supply it. In your opinions there is, but in the opinion of many manufacturers there isn't during the beginning of a product life cycle. After the initial design costs are recouped THEN people start to offer the minority options. And you are in the minority at the moment. Just because you are willing to 'pipe up' doesn't mean you aren't in the minority :)

There are advantages to double triggers even on electro's and this can be seen by the number of top players in pro teams who 'walk' the trigger to get a higher rof. It is effective and an advantage. Just because you do not see it, and do not want it, does not mean that it doesn't exist. Contrary to popular belief JR doesn't design things into his gun because of hype. He does it because he believes it adds functionality. If you see how most pros now shoot angels you can see them doing things that they couldn't with a single trigger.

You will note that Race do not yet have a single trigger option on sale (although they did sensibly design in an upgradeable option, and it will soon be on sale). The fact that they designed in this option is admirable but must also have added a significant amount to the cost of manufacturing each frame. They are filling a 'custom' niche and thus it is important to their product to be able to offer such options. If it would only take an hour to design and produce that single trigger option for the race frame don't you think they would have done it already in response to your posts on their board and have it on sale by now? Also if you look at the cost of their product you can see that it is very expensive and comparable to many markers for a grip frame... So ultimately YOU and EVERY other consumer are already baring the design costs of their making that frame 'convertible'. They have spread that 5k (or whatever and in the case of their frame I expect significantly less :) ) over all the frames thay have produced and charging us all for it.

As the consumer YOU already are putting the money into the design. Wether you like or not :) You just didn't realise that you were.

Hitech, I could do that for the extreme grip frame, but my time to do it (way over an hour ;) ) and the work involved would not be insignificant. And thus for a relatively small number of people (say if we get 30) it would still not be 'cheap'. You need to factor in the time for me to do the design, set ups and code, and then the cost of milling each frame and new guard... The mill time alone considering the batch size would make such an 'option' expensive and thus very unlikey to be standard.

manike

Who has shot single and double finger elecro's and just about any trigger configuration going. And on the e-mag where you may want to use 'manual' it has to be one of the most sensible 'eletros' to have a double trigger on.

p.s. I'm pretty sure I pointed out how you can hold the e-mag with 3 fingers and shoot it with 1... I do and I have big hands.

[WARPED1]

I say if you want a single,contract your fav custom shop,my guy will try anything,I like manikes frame idea where the guard is a seperate piece.
This whole rof thing is a waste anyway,considering that the bps is going to be capped at 13,and ALL multi modes will be banned.