How Level 10 Works - Animation

[AGD]

AO,

Here is a simplistic animation of how the Level 10 mod works. I have eliminated the mainspring for simplicity. Study this GIF and then look at the diagrams below. It's late so I will answer more questions tommorow.

AGD

[AGD]

In these images you see the slow speed, low bolt pressure phase of the stroke. It is very slow about 4-6 FPS. This slow speed and low pressure makes sure it pinches and doesn't chop the balls. There is a additional advantage that the slow speed does not crack or bobble the ball stack waiting to go in.

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/stage1.jpg

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/stage1b.jpg

[AGD]

After we get past the ball stack we can then go full power on the throttle to load, fire and retract the bolt. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT to maintain the firing rate of the gun. If the bolt continued to travel at the same speed it would severly limit the firing rate. The animation does not properly show the speed increase.

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/stage2.jpg

[manike]

Great pics Tom :)

Explains it all. Do you get any change in efficiency or is it the same as before?

manike

[Havoc_online]

very nice animation, can't wait...

AGD, you deserve a break, lol take a few days to yourself to decompress from your thinktank!

[JanStah]

Tom,

Thanks for the animation, it clears up a lot of questions!

I'd like to know what happens when you do 'pinch' a mis-fed ball... obviously, the bolt wont ever go onto it's 'full-blast' stage, but what does it actually do?

A, Does it bounce off the ball, retract and reengage the sear with all the pressure still in the chamber thus letting the ball drop ready for another shot?

or
B, Does it stay in the half-shot state, leaking air until the chamber is depleted and then using the spring, reengage the sear? If so, how long does it take to empty the chamber using only the little bolt-hole? is it noticable?

Cheers Tom; Good job.

Jan.

[Havoc_online]

use the second lvl 10 vid to answer that question... I'd say A

[Manuel_FZR]

Great!
Great invention! Thank you Tom!

[terrorizer666]

looks great and explains a lot of questions, thanks for the animations, can´t wait !

[squall]

This is VERY cool. So when the bolt hits the ball to chop or pinch it, the pressure is still venting from the hole, reducing the presure on the diameter of the piston. The pressure drops below the force that the mainspring is exerting on the bolt, allowing the mainspring to do its job and push the bolt back to its initial position. So the bolt accelerates from rest and actually slows down right before it chambers the ball, and then as the piston leaves the air chamber, it goes to full power and vents all gas to the paintball.

Man, assuming I'm right, the margin of error on this was very small! Paintballs are durable, but we all know how easy it is to dent one! I presume there was much math done for this one ;)

Tom, I am very impressed! This is engineering at its best!

[Blazingace]

I am curious about air effeciency for one and speed secondly. Does this slowing of the bolt translate into a lower firing speed? Is the RT valve now limited to a lower number of BPS? I think that some of the insane fast videos that Butterfingers have been putting out are Lvl 10 'mags.

[cphilip]

How utterly simplistically imaginative......

[rehme]

WOW those are really really good pics. Now i can tell all my friends how it works who HAD mags now they went to cockers because of the blender issue. Great job Tom can not wait intill i get mine.



-mark rehme

[manike]

Originally posted by cphilip
How utterly simplistically imaginative......

Yeah makes you wish they had done this when they came out with the RT... I think things would look differently now if they had :D

Can't wait to see what happens with the new breed of CNC Extreme E-mags with LX technology!

Functionality, looks and innovative ideas... should be good :D

manike

[brodude2002]

nice

[Creative Mayhem]

It looks great! Now I can see what you're talking about.:)
Questions: Is there anymore wear on the powertip o-ring? Is the bolt the same, just with the vent hole?

[manike]

Creative Mayhem the bolt is different, the stem down the middle is longer and includes that hole etc. From the sounds of it the actual main bolt part may also be a little different (sounds like it might be lighter?) but we need to wait and see.

manike

[virus]

hmm.... well i'm ready to be a beta tester.....

i guess i'll have to put it through the short stroke test by lettin others shot it (using their own paint of course) =)
though i think i know what the out come will be..... a marker that even when short stoked over and over that wont chop paint....

i guess this means i should be able to retire my opossoum(sp?) tail squeegee.... esp sence i cant find new ones anymore =)

[MagmanLee]

:D :D :D Buy...buy...buy...buy...buy....:mad: :mad: :mad: ...no money!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

[tsc]

Originally posted by manike


Can't wait to see what happens with the new breed of CNC Extreme E-mags with LX technology!





I do believe Manike has come up with the name for the new system....

Automag Classic LXT
MinimaG LXT
RT-Pro LXT
Emag LXT
Extreme LXT

[bornl33t]

WOAW.. that is sooooo simple... I can't believe it took this long!
geeezzzzz

[xatle]

when it pinches it just needs to dump enough air for the spring to overcome the pressure felt by the plunger, and im guessing that in slow mode the diameter of the plunger is probably the same as the head of an rt on/off pin, maybe a little bigger, so it wouldnt need to completly dump down to the normal 50ish psi, minimizing wasted air on a pinched ball. nicely done, can i have one now or do i still have to wait? :)

[paintbattler]

great pics. cant wait till its in production

[p8ntballa]

The superbolt II is going to be SS, right? Would LVL 10 work with the derlin superbolt I? Would there be any difference if it did?

[Bonx0007]

Originally posted by Sarah



I do believe Manike has come up with the name for the new system....

Automag Classic LXT
MinimaG LXT
RT-Pro LXT
Emag LXT
Extreme LXT

I totally agree, that is a great name to identify the new mod. Go Sarah and Manike!!!!

[joeyjoe367]

wow. THat's sooo ingenious :) Awesome TK. Where do I sign :D

[rhetor22]

very good idea. amazing.

I think this will give mags a larger apeal, getting rid of the problem everyone but me thinks they have.

My mag doesn't chop balls, but whatever. lvl 10 all the way!

It'll get rid of the myth.

[thecavemankevin]

Ok, so does this mean that we older style AIR users will neen an entire new valve set up including regulator (back part)? Or will we just be able to purchase a new front half (vavle) set up w/bolt in order to put it on our RT, Original Emags, and regular mags?


way-to-go Air Gun's :)

[FrAuStY]

Originally posted by Heat
WOAW.. that is sooooo simple... I can't believe it took this long!
geeezzzzz

Actually I don't think it was simple, there was ALOT of math involved as well as ALOT of engineering.

P8ntballa- I don't believe it will work with your delrin bolt since it doesn't have the pressure chamber in the bolt. Thats why their giving Superbolt owners a 25% discount on this upgrade. The New SS bolt is 8% heavier than the delrin bolt so no big difference in recoil.

[p8ntballa]

Yeah I just noticed that, I didnt pay enough attention the first time.

[Will Wood]

Looks great.

[mellofello]

ahh! i havent heard anything about AGD making the LVL ten mods for original RT's...will i be able to buy one for my gun?

[mykroft]

As it's a new bolt+ Powertube internals, it will fit all Automag valves, including AIR, RT and Retro valves.

[mellofello]

whew...i was getting worried. Thanks for the clarification

[CRiZO]

wow, thx for the animation, explains a lot. But I'm still curious what the thing actually does when it gets stopped by a ball/dollar bill/finger... just retract?

[magman68]

so this CANT chop a ball?will this also work with the retro valve for my mag?

[manike]

magman68, A little reading goes a long way... and answers your question :)


Originally posted by mykroft
As it's a new bolt+ Powertube internals, it will fit all Automag valves, including AIR, RT and Retro valves.

:D

manike

[Vegeta]

it's so simple... Tom I bet you have been bashing yourself for not figuring this out a long time ago.

[ben_JD]

Originally posted by CRiZO
what [does] the thing actually does when it gets stopped by a ball/dollar bill/finger... just retract? I have the same question. My curiosity extends to the positive pressure ball stack found in the Warp Feed tube which would disallow the "pinched" ball to bounce back up the tube. Would the ball be able to withstand the bolt without the ball being able to "back out" of the breech, or would it succumb to the pressure and crack?

[tremis]

it seems to me that if a ball pinched, the bolt would just stop and the air in the chamber would bleed out of that little hole until the pressure in the chamber was less than the opposing pressure of the bolt spring and the bolt would then retract allowing the pinched pall to drop. Thats how it looks to me.

Tremis

[Kaiser Bob]

Originally posted by ben_JD
I have the same question. My curiosity extends to the positive pressure ball stack found in the Warp Feed tube which would disallow the "pinched" ball to bounce back up the tube. Would the ball be able to withstand the bolt without the ball being able to "back out" of the breech, or would it succumb to the pressure and crack?

If you watched video #2 you question should be answered. In the video he had the bolt slam onto the ball a number of times without the ball flying back up with no damage to the ball.

[RT_Luver]

thanks Tom...that should clear up most questions many ppl would or will ask. take a break, you've been working to hard on this

[Nomad]

But if Tom took a break, wouldn't we be waiting even longer to get all those little goodies he promised us?? (LVL 10 valve, ACE, Z-Grips)

[hitech]

Great idea! :D I can't wait to try it out. Since I can short stroke ANYTHING I'll have NO problems putting it through the acid test. That and the three month old paint I still have lying around. Can't wait!

[spider54]

so is the level 10 mod going to be coming stock on new guns and in the retro valves??

[Have Blue]

Very well executed. I came up with a very similar dual stage system almost a year ago after some discussions on 'chop-proof' rams on the Tinker's Guild:

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=9013&messageid=994635451

The idea was meant to be used for electro rams (Impulse, Bushy, etc.), but it's obviously well suited for the Mag, too.

I finally refined the idea down to a 'reed valve' style concept, but haven't had a chance to prototype it yet:

http://airsoldier.com/~haveblue/antichopram4.jpg

Fortunately for Tom, his 'ram' (the bolt) is self-exhausting...

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by mellofello
ahh! i havent heard anything about AGD making the LVL ten mods for original RT's...will i be able to buy one for my gun? LVL 10 IS FOR ALL AGD GUNS,JUST TO LET YOU KNOW.

[Jack_Dubious]

I still havent heard anything about efficiency with LVL10. The little bleed hole looks like it would be wasting air...am I missing something?

JDub

[TransMan]

;Jack i think the hole is leting air into the chamber that the gas is going to go before it shoots anyway so none of it is leaking down the barrel

Feel free to correct me if im wrong

[BlackVCG]

The little vent hole vents air into the powertube. That air will still go down the bolt and hit the ball. Efficiency should stay the same.

Also, notice that the PT tip is no longer tapered like the current design. This means the bolt travels further down the barrel to dump the air, thus less blowback.

[kemikos]

BlackVCG:

Yes, but at the point in the cycle where the little hole is venting, the power tube isn't sealed, so the vented air will go straight out the bolt.

And since the ball isn't in the chamber at that point, the air will probably go up the feed tube or around the ball and out the barrel.

I don't imagine there would be a lot of air lost, but over a few hundred shots, it could very well add up. I expect there will be a minor decrease in efficiency.

That's not to say this isn't a very cool thing. I don't know anyone who wouldn't give up a little efficiency for as much of a reliability improvement as LX has the potential to provide.

I'll probably have one at the first opportunity, even though my 'Mag doesn't chop as it is...

[einhander619]

I guess that I am one of the lucky few whose mags do not chop under normal conditions. I never shortstroke, but I think that is because my damn benchy keeps my ROF from going over 10. However, if I get an Iframe, then I will shortstroke, and I will need LX technology. I might get it anyways just so I can say I have something that cool in my RT! The kids shooting impys and bushies at my local field already know to fear the RT, it's time to spread the love...

BTW, that is one of the most brilliant pieces of engineering I have ever seen. It's not everyday you see such a simple solution to such a widespread and serious problem. I assume this is patented, correct? Don't let those WDP mongrels get hold of this!

[davej946]

Quick Question about LVL10:

THEORETICALLY, If I put my finger in the chamber and pull the trigger with LVL10 installed, it wouldn't hurt would it. That is what the 3rd video is supposed to show, right?

If you did that with a LVL7, you'd lose your finger! ;)

Just checking before I get my LVL10 Mod and THEORETICALLY try that out.

thanks ~ Dave

[FishHook]

i'm still wonderin if this will slow down the overall BPS capability. the first part of the bolt is slow, but the second part (the actual firing) is fast. Does the second part make up for the first part? or can we not expect 20BPS with the new bolt?

not that it matters, who really needs anything over 12bps in a game?

[BlackVCG]

FishHook, awhile back there was a video from the HALO guys of an E-Mag at 20bps FA with LVL 10 and a HALO B. The hopper had no chops or breaks with a vertical feed mainbody on the E-Mag. Speed is NOT sacrificed with LVL 10. To make it simple, the bolt speed of the original LVL 7 config was way too fast. Anything beyond 20bps or 16bps for that matter is just for show and R&D purposes.

[FatMan]

this may be deep blue material but -

what is the little vent hole for? I understand what the rest of the system is doing, but I don't understand why you need the vent hole - or the hollow shaft (other than to get to the vent hole).

Can someone who knows explain?

FatMan

[xatle]

without the vent hole a pinched ball might jam the bolt until enough pressure leaked past the imperfect seal, this would take far too long so they added the vent to minimize the amount of time lost to a pinched ball.

in addition to being tremendously easier on paint, i suspect bolt and seer wear will be about 1/3rd of what it is now, and the trigger pull should be noteably easier as well, this thing gets better and better every time i think about it. :)

[SiLeNt X]

good job everyone at AGD. Time to think about buying one of these or a smear kit:D

[JT2002]

when will it be available

[ciaran.mooney]

Its availiable now!

[Manuel_FZR]

I wanted to know, what´s about blowback? Is it reduced on level10? I did a search, but found nothing definite.

[JT2002]

where and how can you get it, and how much is it.

[BlackVCG]

JT2002, Go here:
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39736

[rolo2169]

I think the animation tells the story. Thank you Tom for all your hard work.

[dawump]

This looks great.

Also, the videos are well done. Just one thing. Would it be possible to remake the video "The buck stops here" so that when you remove the dollar after the test there is a small white rabit inside?

Keith

[Skittle]

whoa that so awesomly awesome i cant even explain how great it is. thats gonna be the first thing that goes into the mag that im savin for :) i cant wait...sweetness....

[spore 283]

tom lvl 10 is great. i tried to make the gun chop paint. bouth the e-mag and my rt are awsome