Level 10 Gas Efficiency

[legion]

Heya everyone,

I was just wondering, now that we're learning more and more about the level 10, i was wondering about it's gas efficiency... Does it still have the same efficiency as a standard RT (RT, RT/Pro, Retro, Emag) valve? What about when it doesnt complete the bolt cycle, how long does it take to reset / does it dump all the air or just some?

Thanks,
Legion

[FrAuStY]

Well they have a lvl10 emag running 20bps... if you can't tag someone shooting that fast... change your hobby :D, right now AO is being a beta tester to find answers for your questions as far as efficiency thats what we're going to find. I don't believe it will be any less efficient as the amount of gas escaping when a misfeed happens would be the same amount wasted on a chop if not less. When you're rapid firing the little amount of air leaking from bolt stem will be minimal. Its just going to take some tuning to get it to work the best.. which there are posts all over from AGD which you need to read about the LVL10. search for LVL10 and READ this should answer any question you have..if not.. post it in a current thread instead of opening another.. the mods just posted about this and they're gonna start deleting unneeded posts.

[paintbattler]

its probably the same because all it is, is o-rings and a new bolt

[Hamster Huey]

Ahh yes, but if you look at the diagrams that AGD has put out, you'll see that the new bolt has a small hole in the piston that leaks air. It's _designed_ to leak air, mind you; this is one of the key aspects of the anti-chop system. But leak air it does, and that's why legion is wondering about efficiency.

I doubt the efficiency will be the same. The question is just how much lower it will be. I imagine we'll have to wait for the kits to make it out to the AO beta testers to see what the final verdict is.

[manike]

Originally posted by Hamster Huey
It's _designed_ to leak air, mind you; this is one of the key aspects of the anti-chop system. But leak air it does, and that's why legion is wondering about efficiency.


It ONLY leaks air when it pinches a ball instead of firing the shot out it leaks the air out. It doesn't leak air at any other time.

manike

[Hamster Huey]

Are you sure about that, manike? It seems pretty clear from the drawings and animations that some amount of air is leaked out of that hole during every shot.

When air is leaking out of the hole in the smaller-radius bolt piston, the larger-radius piston hasn't yet established a seal with the inner diameter of the powertube. This leaves room for the leaked air to go around the piston, out the powertube, and forward into the rest of the bolt.

[CleenSweep]

Hey Huey, you a Calvin and Hobbes fan there huh?

It is designed only to bleed the air out when a ball is caught betweed the bolt and feed tube. Air is vented everytime you fire though because it is a "Dual Speed" bolt system.

[AGD]

Yes it does leak a small amount of air but it also did this in the old level 7 too. When the piston left the old oring it vented for the time it took to pull past the spacer. Only THEN did it seal in the bore of the power tube tip.

So you see it should not really change efficiency that much. Theoretically it should be a little better because we are using less force on the bolt (= less energy). We have to see, I really don't think there will be a big difference either way.

AGD

[manike]

Originally posted by Hamster Huey
It seems pretty clear from the drawings and animations that some amount of air is leaked out of that hole during every shot.

Yes but that air is being 'leaked' slowly from a small hole into an area that if the ball is to be fired will very soon be filled quickly by the higher pressure and volume of air. So it's not leaking as a 'vent' during a normal shot just leaking to slowly fill the air chamber and thus that pressure will in a small part be used anyway.

I meant above that it's not leaking when the bolt is at rest and the 'leak' is actually part of the gas that will fire the ball. Maybe think of it as a 'preload' :)

manike

[cphilip]

Originally posted by FrAuStY
.. the mods just posted about this and they're gonna start deleting unneeded posts.

Thanks but no post will be deleted as long as they are not breaking the rules and are not carbon copies of another one. They will be consolidated after they have been answered. My plan was to let ones that are a new twist run for the day until we felt they had been answered and then make sure everyone sees them for a while and then consolidate them into the one thread. Not delete any of them. This in fact was a good one and probably I will let is stay sperate until I feel everyone has had a chance to see the answers. Then I might archive it there in the consolidation thread. Thats the way it will go.

The main reason for doing this is to save front page space without losing any of the content. We are going to live with reduced first page space for a while and I want to keep as many good topics on the front pages as possible.


But you are right most question have been answered and can be found by reading all the threads on it first.

[RT_Luver]

all they did was add or-ng and drill a hole in the bolt, so i would guess that the efficiency will be very close if not the same

[mrbrutal]

when a ball gets chopped, air is used. when a lvl10 pinch occurs air is used. once you pull the trigger, doesnt the on/off close so that no more air is let in?

[Hamster Huey]

...the 'leak' is actually part of the gas that will fire the ball. Maybe think of it as a 'preload'

I still have to disagree with you here, manike. It says in the "How Level 10 Works" pictures that "Air vents through small hole but does not build up pressure." So the air that is leaked through the small hole is free to go out the bolt, around the paintball, up the feed tube, wherever. The leaked air doesn't build up pressure and thus does not contribute to the gas that will fire the ball. There is no "preload" to speak of.

That being said, this small bit of air doesn't seem to matter a whole lot. Tom has pointed out that the Level 7's leaked air in a similar way (he had me taking apart my own valve to see for myself :D), which would suggest that Level 10's efficiency won't be all that different.

The thing that I love the most about this thread is that it has _forced_ me to understand the inner workings of Level 10, and as a bonus it even increased my understanding of how Level 7 works. Beautiful...:)

[manike]

Originally posted by Hamster Huey
So the air that is leaked through the small hole is free to go out the bolt, around the paintball, up the feed tube, wherever. The leaked air doesn't build up pressure and thus does not contribute to the gas that will fire the ball. There is no "preload" to speak of.

True to an extent but for there to be a leak out of the front of the bolt there has to be a pressure gradient... which means the area where the leak is occuring will be at a higher pressure than the air in the barrel. It won't build up to firing pressure because it is not contained, but it will be at a slightly higher pressure. It may well be very slight but it must happen for there to be a gas transfer...

Also as the bolt goes forward the front of the piston is fitting into the powertube tip and causing a better seal and the little hole will still be leaking a little gas until the bolt moves far enough forwards to release the main gas burst. With the shims setting this should be very close but I expect there will still be a little overlap.

If a ball is properly chambered then any leaking gas will be so quick that it won't be much and won't have time to escape down the barrel, thus it would be a preload to firing. If a ball is pinched then this is what releases the force and so the point is mute. Therefore if a ball is fired I think preload is an accurate term (albeit a very small preload) but if a ball is pinched it's a leak :)

All in all we agree that it's not going to make much difference :)

As Tom points out though since the 'work' being done is against a weaker main spring it should use less energy (which ultimately comes from the gas) and thus may be more efficient. Added to the fact that the gas release is later due to the new powertube tip style may mean less blowback and again more efficiency...

The proof as they say will be in the pudding :D Can't wait to get mine.

manike