First Hiccup in LVL10 [Archive] - Automags.Org Online Forums

AGD

06-21-2002, 12:01 AM

Future LVL10 Users,

We have found our first issue with the LVL10 parts. The o-ring carrier (4) comes in 5 different sizes to properly fit the variations in the power tube o-ring. In setting up the first few guns for our teams SWARM and AGDPride we came across the following problems.

When using carrier #2 and finding that the oring is too loose on the bolt, you should then switch to carrier #1 which is 3 thousands smaller and in theory should give you the right fit. It turns out that the batch of o-rings we have is right in the middle and is too loose with one carrier and too tight with the next one up the line.

THIS IS NOT A SHOW STOPPER!! But we had to put in an emergency order of "tweener" carriers that are in between the current sizes. So now there will be like 9 carriers to choose from. The problem is that they will be marked funny to tell them apart. Original carriers have 0,1,2,3 or 4 grooves cut around the outside. The new half sizes will have the same thing except with the addition of 3 small divits around the outside to show that they are half sizes.

Example 0, 0 with divit, 1, 1 with divit, etc.

The second problem is that the power tube o-rings sometimes (but not always) break in and get a little bigger. So a gun that is setup and working suddenly starts leaking down the barrel for no reason. You then have to take it apart and go to the next smaller carrier.

PLAN ON OVER AN HOUR to get your gun setup right. It took us several hours to get 4 guns working here the other night. I warned you that you would be beta testers on this stuff so don't get on here and complain if you can't figure it out the first time.

We expect that it will take a lot of support for the first guys to get things working right. I don't think our tech lines can handle it so we will be doing as much as we can here in the forum to help everyone out and get them working smoothly. We might not even send instructions so we can constantly update instructions here as this evolves.

If things go well and we don't get any more things popping up we should be shipping next week.

Again, things are fine, the product still works, we added more parts to make it easier, it starts doing things you don't expect like leaking, plan on spending time understanding the system. I told you this is tunable like a Cocker, now you get to play with it all week!!

AGD

personman

06-21-2002, 12:03 AM

Ok, we only need to get our gun set up once though, unlike a cocker... RIGHT?!?!? Tom, say yes. :)

AGD

06-21-2002, 12:04 AM

Yes, once you get it working it should be fine for a long time, unless you want to change velocity drastically.

AGD

personman

06-21-2002, 12:05 AM

WOOHOO!
Thanks dude, your awesome..
You dont mind if I call you dude, do you? lol :p

ShinyGuy

06-21-2002, 12:10 AM

How about making the carrier 2 parts that thread together and compress the o-ring? You could probably get .003-.006 of adjustability. It makes the carriers more complex but could reduce the number of sizes you need by half or more. I know O-rings are supposed to have a little space in the grove but I've found compressing them slightly to work for adjusting fit.

netjunk1e

06-21-2002, 12:11 AM

i can't wait for mine. I always wanted a gun to tinker with and my mag wasn't that til now. I've got to give you credit Tom for being up way too late telling us this stuff!

Robbie

Mossman

06-21-2002, 12:24 AM

Level 10....

You can fiddle with it like a cocker...except it actually works good :)

Glad to see you're bringing this to my and my fellow beta tester's attention now, rather than the day we get it, scaring the hell out of everyone

pumpamatic

06-21-2002, 12:28 AM

So when can we expect the 9 carriers to come with the whole thing? Will they go out with beta tests or will we have to pay the 80 at the official release? Good thing I was forced to wait for a paycheck.

D'oh, I was thinking he meant public release. I should order mine soon.

Mossman

06-21-2002, 12:37 AM

I think there going out with the beta...cuz he said shipping hopefully next week.

WE LOVE YOU TOM!

Butterfingers

06-21-2002, 12:59 AM

I think I have a general idea of the mechanics of how this thing works...

You guys can PM me if you have any problems with L10 and I will try to help you, take some of the load off AGD so they can work on making L10 even better.

Bob Mundon

06-21-2002, 01:02 AM

you have failed

Duck Hunt -xi-

06-21-2002, 02:36 AM

lol, that post above isnt cool.

anways these o rings, that go with differnt guns, is there a list somewhere that advises us which one to use, depending on what type of gun we have, or am i ganna have to try things out :eek:

zads27

06-21-2002, 03:09 AM

cripes!

gettin down to o-ring/carrier size tolerances of 0.0015!
talk about high tolerances.
*shrug*
won't stop me from my lvl 10, though.

virus

06-21-2002, 07:23 AM

hmm... looks like i am going to have some goverment work on the weekends at my job =)

all i need to do now it to get my chrono from my buddy and work on it using my "action balls" over the chrono at work..... i'm gonna be on of those "need 2 setups for indoor & outdoor" people..... hopefully by just changing the main springs along with the almighty hex wrench in the back should be all that i need to adjust the velocity.....

now as to the comment that we get to play with out mags in a way that resembles a cocker.... i'd like to see a cocker that you can just throw stock, proven parts on and get it workin right away if it starts acting up =)

Jonno06

06-21-2002, 07:43 AM

hm.....

i dont really see a problem,so what if we have 4 more carriers.This provides for the perfect fit no matter what.....great job Tommy

cphilip

06-21-2002, 08:09 AM

Realy more carriers is a good thing. Even more fine tuning can be achieved and apears likely. To be expected in this phase I think. And some break in I expected as tolerances change so thats a given I thought. Good to know its being refined even more before I start testing it.

Better fill up the scuba!

That in itself might be a good point to bring out now. You guys who do not have a good acess to air SHOULD NOT betta test in my opinion. If what Tom is indicating is the case ((I certainly have no reason to doubt it) you could need a couple or three tanks of air to make sure you are set up right. Maybe more! So you may want to consider this when you think about testing.

krafty

06-21-2002, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by cphilip
Better fill up the scuba!

I always wanted an excuse to buy a SCUBA tank and a fill station!

Now where'd I put that darn credit card...

cphilip

06-21-2002, 08:59 AM

It would be a good investment anyway! Thats the spirit Krafty!

seriously folks consider your situation...Me? I am set to go!

Mossman

06-21-2002, 09:00 AM

Same here phil :)

Sweet, i get to test out my 2 new tanks coming in the mail AND tune level 10 all at the same time!

bofh

06-21-2002, 09:17 AM

Hmm, will a 25 lbs CO2 tank do?

FooTemps

06-21-2002, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by Bob Mundon
you have failed

And why did you just post this? He didn't fail, he just freaked out and made it looked like he failed... Maybe Tom should learn to keep his cool better... lol

sniper1rfa

06-21-2002, 09:23 AM

sounds like the same goes for those people without a chrony. i have one of those "shooting chrony" deals. works great.

BTW, did you know the average spitball goes 80 fps, and th average little elastic band does 180 fps!? lol

virus

06-21-2002, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by cphilip

Better fill up the scuba!

or in my case drag the tank out to my car and go get the vip again for it and get it filled..... its been sitting in the same spot for about 15 months now..... still got about 1k in it too =)

but your right i should go fill it and this makes one heck of an excuse to boot =)

ShooterJM

06-21-2002, 09:31 AM

First, thanks to Tom for explaining this early.

Second, I had planned on filling up all my bottles, getting a case or two of paint, going to the local field, grabbing an extra chrony and going to town on the spare field.

FrAuStY

06-21-2002, 09:36 AM

HAHAHA I already got my scuba filled for this reason. I figured I'd be spending a couple hours and a couple thousand rounds getting it tweaked :) I can't wait.. like everyone said.. it's like a cocker..but once it starts working it should work forever.. and if not.. slap the stock parts in and rock on! AGD is the best.

hitech

06-21-2002, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by virus
I'd like to see a cocker that you can just throw stock, proven parts on and get it workin right away if it starts acting up.

That is something for everyone to remember. If you are having trouble and you want/need to play, just put the level 7 part back in and you are up and running again. :D

paintbattler

06-21-2002, 10:03 AM

oh man..thats not good..oh well, at least its fixable.

manike

06-21-2002, 10:15 AM

Hey Guys,

I am a little concerned that some of you have ordered the beta test level 10 kits aren't aware of what Beta testing means and involves.

Ideally things will be perfect and go right immediately.

But there may well be issues that are only found when in the hands of many different players.

We need to work through these, with time, patience and effort to get solutions. Not with upset or irritated posts and certainly not with abuse.

Being part of a beta test is something special but in return you need to play your part. You need to work with what you get. Not become frustrated if it's not perfect (that's why it was cheaper and a beta test).

It is GOOD that Tom found the first issue before the kits were even sent out. It will be good for us to find any other issues and get fixes before this goes on mass sale. THAT is the WHOLE point of being involved in this.

I think when it comes to it, constructive criticism and comments are the only ones that should be allowed in threads surrounding the beta testing of Level 10. Remember you CHOSE to Beta test. Tom made that very clear.

That doesn't mean, you can't point out any issues or faults, it just means you have to do it with a certain level of decorum. Respect the responsibility you have been given and have as part of being in this process (that goes for others reading the boards also and not just those with actual level 10 kits as we are all involved).

manike

cphilip

06-21-2002, 10:24 AM

Well put Simon!

And hence my warning of being prepared and properly equiped to do this testing as well. If you are not then you are doing none of us any good. In fact perhaps more harm than good. I fear many are not prepared to do this. And so they should wait until the rest of us with the time and patience to tinker with it are finished. I realy dread the first kid who gets it and gives up in like half an hour or so. THIS WILL HAPPEN. BUT YOU WERE WARNED!!!!!! SECOND WARNING!!! NOTHING HAS SHIPPED YET!!! YOU SHOULD CHANGE YOUR MIND IF YOU ARE NOT COMMITED TO MAKING THIS WORK!!!! TOM DOES NOT NEED BAD HELP, HE NEEDS GOOD HELP HERE! If you cannot stand the heat then stay outa the kitchen people. If you do not head these warnings an fail I got no sympathy for you. You were told.

Think the Caps will make anyone think? ;)

Army

06-21-2002, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by Bob Mundon
you have failed

You try to bash 'Mags on many forums, but you have yet to have a valid, or even a logical, complaint.

In case you are the recpient of public education and could not read all the big words, Tom stated that none of the discovered problems (not failures) would stop you from swapping a part in the kit and continue to play.

It's a glitch. Like all new things, testing will reveal unknown kinks that will be straightened out. This kink has already been straightened out, even before the real world testing has begun.

Now, go home and hug your Teddy Bear.

manike

06-21-2002, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by cphilip
I realy dread the first kid who gets it and gives up in like half an hour or so.

That was my concern. I didn't want it to do more harm than good.

ATB

manike

ShooterJM

06-21-2002, 11:21 AM

I'll chime in here. I've never beta tested a paintball related thing before, but I've done much beta testing on software.

Frame of mind is key! You CAN NOT view this as a finished product. Our JOB is to put this through it's paces, check everything, take copius and useful notes, and identify and try to replicate any glitches we may find.

It's about contributing in some way to make a finished product in the future. Very different from purchasing a finished product. Very different.

j.t.

06-21-2002, 11:59 AM

Lets just hope we dont get too many people that give up after a few minutes of tinkering with it...

I dunno about everyone else, but i'm ready to spend COUNTLESS hours getting it fined tuned just the way i like it! I got all summer...

Vegeta

06-21-2002, 12:07 PM

Oh god..

Some people on htese forums can't even understand the concept of PT Spacers.. let alone this.

I see lots and lots of questions in the chat room and in hte tech forum. I think I might just take a vacation for a while and just *not* answer questions. I like to help people.. but I do not have the nerve to be a service tech :)

echoes

06-21-2002, 12:18 PM

You guys are almost making me regret ordering the level 10 kit... I'll be going away for several weeks right after I receive it so maybe I should have just waited... :(

CenterFire

06-21-2002, 12:26 PM

I don't know about everyone else, but I don't just spend money on something and give up on it if I can't figure it out right away. If money went into it, I'm gonna make it work gosh darnit! :p

xatle

06-21-2002, 12:39 PM

perhaps if this oring was part of the bolt plunger instead of the power tube, might help relieve some of the strict tolerance issues. place the oring high on the plunger, where it changes diameter, so that as soon as the bolt moves the seal breaks allowing some blowby and possibly removing the need for the vent hole.
problem is that we would lose the resistance of this oring and the bolt would be a little faster, so we would have to compensate with longer springs.

just thinkin.

Bob Mundon

06-21-2002, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by Army

You try to bash 'Mags on many forums, but you have yet to have a valid, or even a logical, complaint.

In case you are the recpient of public education and could not read all the big words, Tom stated that none of the discovered problems (not failures) would stop you from swapping a part in the kit and continue to play.

It's a glitch. Like all new things, testing will reveal unknown kinks that will be straightened out. This kink has already been straightened out, even before the real world testing has begun.

Now, go home and hug your Teddy Bear.

lol army, i would never say that in any seriousness whatsoever, im sorry you guys dont know me well enough to know i was joking.

and army, despite the fact you have seen me on pbreview forums, you are confusing me with someoen else, i am a mag defender, not a basher, you must be thinking of someone else. hell, my only gun is a mag.

Cristobal

06-21-2002, 01:26 PM

In my opinion there should be a highly visible disclamer on the order page explaining (as has been said here) just what it means to be a beta tester -- and some tips on what makes someone good beta tester.

The importance of expecting to take time to get it working and dealing with unforseen problems should be mentioned, along with the air supply issue and the importance of keeping a propper attitude throughout the process.

AGD has a reputation for making solid products, but people need to uderstand that this is a beta test not a special offer to AO of a finished product. If they want a finished product they can wait untill the beta testing gets whatever issues come up ironed out.

ThePatriot

06-21-2002, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by Army

In case you are the recpient of public education and could not read all the big words, Tom stated that none of the discovered problems (not failures) would stop you from swapping a part in the kit and continue to play.

Army...are you saying anyone who is publically educated doesnt have the knowledge to properly read and decipher simple text from an online forum? I would like to believe other people who are about my age(16) and from public school arent thought of as some mindless bigots doing nothing but harassing other inviduals online looking for some kicks. Theres just too many megalomaniacal people in this world, doing nothing but wanting the best things in life right now, thinking they have the power to control it.

hitech

06-21-2002, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by Cristobal
In my opinion there should be a highly visible disclaimer on the order page explaining (as has been said here) just what it means to be a beta tester...

By the time someone gets to the ordering page they should already know that the product is in beta testing only. They should already know that it may not work correctly the first time, or possibly EVER. They should have already read the "disclaimer". They didn't get to the order page by accident. It was a very real effort on their part. People need to take responsibility for their decisions.

RT_Luver

06-21-2002, 01:58 PM

one question...the extremes are coming with Lvl 10, right? will they come setup perfect or wil we have to fiddle with them too??

Doobie

06-21-2002, 02:01 PM

hitech:
"People need to take responsibility for their decisions."
That is the problem with some people today, they want to blame other people for everything.
As one kid stated in another thread, he got his mother to order his kit. His mother will probably be the one making the service call at the first sign of trouble, also.
I can't wait to tinker with mine. I think it will be worth many hours of work, reporting, recording, and tinkering again to get a mag set up with the capabilities of the Lvl 10.:)

bofh

06-21-2002, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by ThePatriot
Army...are you saying anyone who is publically educated doesnt have the knowledge to properly read and decipher simple text from an online forum?

Technically, Army used an AND operand, so only if both were true would it apply. I can't imagine why, since privately educated readers that can't "read the big words" would also have trouble with this. Now if he had moved the comma in front of the AND, it would have been a different sentence... Maybe Army has a Public Education :)

The above is a complete and total joke, no offense is meant by it in the least.

echoes

06-21-2002, 02:19 PM

The bottom line is: Buy at your own risk... We're getting a discounted price for a reason, beta testing, which I'm looking forward to. That said, I probably shouldn't have ordered just because I'll be out of town and have to wait a few weeks to use it anyways. :rolleyes:

Bob Mundon

06-21-2002, 02:27 PM

army was just saying that cause he thought i was serious when i said tom failed.

he also thinks on "many forums" i bash mags. considering i own a mag, love it, praise it, defend it, and only hang out on this (a little) and pbreview forums, if anyone is the byproduct of bad eduction its certainly not me.

FactsOfLife

06-21-2002, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by manike
Hey Guys,
I am a little concerned that some of you have ordered the beta test level 10 kits aren't aware of what Beta testing means and involves.manike

it means dealing with the UGH-known...

cphilip

06-21-2002, 02:47 PM

Hey Bob...when kidding it helps to use some smillies! :)

hitech

06-21-2002, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by Bob Mundon
army was just saying that cause he thought i was serious when i said tom failed.

It's hard to tell. Humor doesn't come across in writing as the reader can't hear your tone of voice. That is where the "smilies" come it. If you don't really mean it just add a ;).

mykroft

06-21-2002, 03:19 PM

ThePatriot: When 30% of the population of the US is functionally Illiterate (understands street signs, but not anything complex) and the majority of that 30% had public education, Army has a real point. I suspect he was making a bit of a joke, as is common in the Tech Support field, but it rings all to true.

Yes I'm Canadian, No Canada isn't exempt from the problem, our schools just haven't deteriorated as far yet.

Bob Mundon

06-21-2002, 03:45 PM

yeah, i know i should have used smilies.

im just used to people knowing me well enough that can tell im sarcastic even though text

RT_Luver

06-21-2002, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by paintbattler
oh man..thats not good..oh well, at least its fixable.

uh...its not really that bad. i mean, they haven't even been sent out yet, so if they just listen to what Tom has to say, they shouldn't have a problem

rx2

06-21-2002, 07:53 PM

Ahh, another excuse to give the old trigger-finger a good workout.

KamikazePenguin

06-21-2002, 08:01 PM

I have all intent to be a thorough beta tester and spend a good amount of time getting my E-mag set up correctly. I ask, for the good of AGD, that anyone who doesn't feel themselves to be capable of being a competent beta tester please forego the level 10 greatness and cancel their orders.

einhander619

06-21-2002, 09:47 PM

If we are to be Beta testers, then why are we paying for a *possibly* highly problematic peice of equipment? If I were Tom, I would have made everyone put a deposit down of $65, then ship them a Beta lvl 10 kit. After testing it and finding all the bugs, Those involved in the Beta testing can ship their kits back to AGD, AGD can make the changes, and those who went through the trouble of Beta testing get sent a new, fixed lvl 10 kit, and AGD keeps the deposit as payment. If the Beta lvl 10 kit works great, then they've already paid for it, and AGD doesn't ever have to hear from them again. If not, well that's what Beta testing is all about. Frankly, one way or another, I would like to have a perfectly functional lvl 10 kit without paying any more than I did to be a Beta tester.

One more thing I would like to say about the current situation: Tom has made AGD an exceedingly honest company. In this world, that is something that many people are not used to dealing with. Usually when a company is honest, it is because that honesty is court-ordered. Not so, here, people. Therefore, I would like to ask everyone who is involved or has an opinion about lvl 10 to think before they open their mouthes, and not jump to any conclusions.

My regards to everyone involved in the lvl 10 Beta process, we have a paradigm to shift!
(And some cocker bashing!:))

the123

06-22-2002, 06:24 AM

Well, i'd like to come to a conclusion about level 10. It flat out ROCKS in MY gun. :p
4500 balls yesterday, not a chop or break. I had to clean my barrel 1 time yesterday. From someone elses paint.
Brian

Army

06-22-2002, 09:36 AM

Hmm...OK BobMundon, I'll give you it this time. But another sarcastic post with no smiley, and I'll beat you down!

(.......now, watch...):):):):):):):):D, See? That's means I being funny about this.........or am I......? )

:)!

hitech

06-22-2002, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by einhander619
...I would have made everyone put a deposit down of $65, then ship them a Beta lvl 10 kit. After testing it and finding all the bugs, Those involved in the Beta testing can ship their kits back to AGD,...

I think the bottom line is that they don't need to go to the extra work of doing anything like that. They have enough people willing to just buy it "hopping" it works well, like me! :D

BTW, I believe it has as good (actually better) chance of living up to it's advertised performance improvement that just about ANY other upgrade you can currently purchase. :D

Doobie

06-22-2002, 06:12 PM

quote einhander619:

Those involved in the Beta testing can ship their kits back to AGD, AGD can make the changes, and those who went through the trouble of Beta testing get sent a new, fixed lvl 10 kit, and AGD keeps the deposit as payment.

Given the reputation of AGD customer service, do you really think TK would leave all the Beta testers hanging? He has already rush ordered additional parts that he discovered were needed before he even shipped the Beta versions. (hence this whole thread) Sending the whole kit back and having a new kit returned and then collecting the deposit is basically the same as what we are doing now. I'm sure IF new parts are needed, AGD will arrange something for the Beta Testers.

As far as the rest of your post goes, I'm with you.:D