and then there was AGD.........

[CpSuPeRkId]

I know its disturbing, but i almost decided to get an angel, then i saw the amazing capabilities of the lvl 10 at work. i thought ok angels look and feel better and have an lcd screen, then there was AGD, i saw the working videos of lvl 10 pinching paint and i thought ok angels can still breka paint, the emags trigger is better, just the same rof, emags wont break paint EVER, so why not go for it even though its a lil bit more bulky. well my conclusion is AGD/tom kaye are the best in the world, and any kind of emag with lvl 10 will kill any ir3 performance wise. I SEEN THE LIGHT!!!!!

[Havoc_online]

just the same rof

any Emag can shoot faster than any Angel


its a lil bit more bulky

if your worried about weight, get a SFL Emag or an Xtreme:)

[demonguy8]

First off Im not a mag basher, (in fact, after seeing lvl 10 in the videos and firing an rt at the local store, i instantly sold my cocker to get an rt) but it annoys me when people go out and talk about an emag firing faster than an angel,timmy, etc.. because everyone is forgetting one factor.. reality

YES the RT valve is capable of firing faster... and yes it is capable of doing so without shootdown (which are good points *altho heard WAY to often*)... BUT I would mention to you that some 97%(rough estimate which imho is probably still low) of paintball is played without Full auto, turbo, or other echanced firing modes... In semi mode it is not the gun that determines the rof but rather the human ability to pull the trigger.. therefore some guys angel may outshoot your emag as much as 97% of the time...


Now i should also mention that this doesnt take into consideration of hoppers.... I DARE YOU TO TRY FIRING FASTER ON AN EMAG WITH A non motorized loader THAN A HALO/WARPED ANGEL! you can even use full auto if you want....

sorry to vent on you, but this comment is heard ALL to frequently and it annoys me because 97% or more of the time the ROF is even....

[Havoc_online]

In semi mode it is not the gun that determines the rof but rather the human ability to pull the trigger.. therefore some guys angel may outshoot your emag as much as 97% of the time...

Of course it is the human factor, however, I've seen guys with angels at my local field ripping it up and dont being as consistant as I've seen the RT's and Emag in quick shot bursts.


I DARE YOU TO TRY FIRING FASTER ON AN EMAG WITH A non motorized loader THAN A HALO/WARPED ANGEL! you can even use full auto if you want....

LOL, dude C'mon don't make me laugh. I can say the same thing to you.(BTW do you really think that anyone with a Emag is going to be using a VL2000 hopper:rolleyes: )

[manike]

Originally posted by Havoc_online
Emag is going to be using a VL2000 hopper:rolleyes: )

The VL2000 was Viewloaders first motorised loader :) I still have one (hhmm or did I just sell it...) I think you may have meant VL200?

manike

[demonguy8]

the second part of my post was just merely me being a smart*butt* since you did say ALL...
but in all honasty you would be suprised... i had a customer come into my work to fill a co2 tank... an hour or so later he came back in claiming it was a defective tank or something because his emag wouldnt run on it lol...:eek:

[shartley]

Oh my….

demonguy8

First off Im not a mag basher, (in fact, after seeing lvl 10 in the videos and firing an rt at the local store, i instantly sold my cocker to get an rt) but it annoys me when people go out and talk about an emag firing faster than an angel,timmy, etc.. because everyone is forgetting one factor.. reality
It may annoy you, but deal with it. It seems that you have a problem with PEOPLE shooting faster, not the markers. I will show you how I come to this conclusion.

YES the RT valve is capable of firing faster... and yes it is capable of doing so without shootdown (which are good points *altho heard WAY to often*)... BUT I would mention to you that some 97%(rough estimate which imho is probably still low) of paintball is played without Full auto, turbo, or other echanced firing modes... In semi mode it is not the gun that determines the rof but rather the human ability to pull the trigger.. therefore some guys angel may outshoot your emag as much as 97% of the time...
There you have it! You even state that the MARKER (Mag) can shoot faster, but then mention that it is the HUMAN that actually determines how fast THEY are shooting. This is very true. But that would still mean that Mags themselves DO shoot faster than other markers… which was the bone of contention with you. Are you now wanting to argue which owners shoot faster?

You see, if you start out saying that one marker CAN shoot faster but that because of Human ability, the other one is seen shooting faster, you now change your argument from the marker to the owner… sorry.

I also make the same argument (human factor) when people mention rates of fire for normal use. But I apply it EVENLY to ALL markers.. not just to show that one is better than another. I also make comparisons that are equal. You can have ANY brand of marker set up to shoot fast and pass it over to another person and have them shoot it slower.. no matter how hard they are trying. How comfortable you are with your setup, trigger, and other factors will determine how fast you shoot your marker as much as what TYPE of marker you are shooting.

The simple truth to the matter is that Mags have the base line manufactured ability to be the fastest markers on the field.. period. If you want a marker that will always be able to keep up with YOUR ability to shoot fast, you want a Mag. If you want a marker that will outshoot any other marker “out of the box”, you want a Mag. If you want a marker that will keep up with any loading device you put on it, you want a Mag.

However, if you want higher ROFs on the field, you will want to practice! You also want to set up your marker to YOUR liking. Personally, I don’t care much about anything over 7-9BPS anyway, but that is just me. But would that indicate that my RT Pro can’t outshoot any other marker on the field if put in the hands of someone who can use it more to its abilities? No! Don’t blame the abilities (or inabilities) of the owners on the markers themselves… which you have done to show that somehow Angels are better in “real world use”…. Simply put, you have only shown that at the fields YOU go to, Angel Owners can shoot their markers faster, NOT that they have faster markers… sorry.

Also when you start making marker comparisons and don’t compare manuals with manual hoppers with others that are the same, or electrics with motorized hoppers with others that are the same, you cut all the credibility from under yourself.

Now i should also mention that this doesnt take into consideration of hoppers.... I DARE YOU TO TRY FIRING FASTER ON AN EMAG WITH A non motorized loader THAN A HALO/WARPED ANGEL! you can even use full auto if you want....
What? How about doing it in reverse? How would that help any rational argument? It doesn’t…..

Please don’t take this post as a flame, because it isn’t. I was with you all they way about the human factor… but then you lost me when you seemed to want to make marker speed and user speed the SAME…. They clearly are not. I have often said “It is not always the driver with the fastest car that wins a race, but the one who is willing to push it further than the other guy.” This is true with markers, to an extent. The one shooting the fastest on the field is often NOT the guy with the fastest marker…. He just shoots faster.

[Jonno06]

not sure if shartley said it..but

if the mag shoots faster than an angel,and its up to the human,the mag would still be faster....way faster


AND,angels are now capped at 13bps semi,emags,are capped at 16.....faster,like usual......

AND,the emag trigger actually gets lighter as the user pulls it...not sure what that has to do with anything....but its still cool

[Temo Vryce]

Human Factor:

I can't shoot a cocker. If you want to know what an untimed cocker sounds like give a timed cocker and ask me to shoot fast. It's really sad.

Angels, these I can shoot but for me the trigger pull is just a little too short, nice marker though.

Mag. With a good mag I can out shoot a revie. Not everytime mind you but often enough that chopping is a pain.

E-Mag w/ warp. :D If I put it hybrid mode I can out shoot any other marker I have or will ever pick up.

You're right there is a human factor involved, but if the marker can't do more than 8 bps then you aren't going to get more than 8 bps out of it.

[nicad]

Which angels are capped at 13bps?
They can do 20bps in semi; full auto at 13 (for safety reasons i guess).
is 20 more than 16? ;)

[a_malfunction]

Extremes are capped at 24 :D

[shartley]

Which angels are capped at 13bps?
They can do 20bps in semi; full auto at 13 (for safety reasons i guess).
is 20 more than 16?
WHAT? LOL (trying to control myself)

Show me ONE Angel that has been verified to shoot at 20BPS in either Semi OR FA. This has been discussed here and no such proof has been presented. Also, if you trust those “shot speed” readouts that come on the Angels (or any other Electric Frame with a speed clock) I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. They take the time between the two fastest shots and calculate THAT.. NOT your actual sustained rate of fire. It is a way to let ignorant people “brag” about how fast they can shoot… nothing more.

Now, with that said, they ARE fast. And any marker that can do 10-13 BPS in semi is fast enough for ANYONE. But let’s not fool ourselves about any claims of 20BPS in semi OR FA with the Angel. The fastest has been shown to be about 18BPS… still VERY fast, but not 20.

[FrAuStY]

When I first read this post... my jaw dropped to the floor. You just summed up everything I've been looking to say to the people who fall behind Angels shoot the fastest, herd mentality. It amazes me that people don't actually research, the R&D performed to get their marker of choice where it is today. I honestly hope you learned something today Demonguy8 as you can search this forum and find proof to back up Shartley's response, not falsities and fairytales that you may find on other marker forums. Basically as shartley said , in not so many words, you can't base a markers speed only on average ability of the owners who use them. You have to test the marker using the same input. Then base your findings on that. AGD used a computer to pull the trigger and test the Retrovalve up to 26cps (cycles per second) without any measureable shootdwon. Show me where ICD, or WDP, even Bob long did this and was able to cycle faster than AGD's 26! I think you'll be searching for a long time my friend only to come up empty handed. Don't think I'm flaming you either.. just adding my .02 :D


Originally posted by shartley
Oh my….

demonguy8

It seems that you have a problem with PEOPLE shooting faster, not the markers.

The simple truth to the matter is that Mags have the base line manufactured ability to be the fastest markers on the field.. period. If you want a marker that will always be able to keep up with YOUR ability to shoot fast, you want a Mag. If you want a marker that will outshoot any other marker “out of the box”, you want a Mag. If you want a marker that will keep up with any loading device you put on it, you want a Mag.

However, if you want higher ROFs on the field, you will want to practice! *edit*You also want to set up your marker to YOUR liking. Personally, I don’t care much about anything over 7-9BPS anyway, but that is just me.

[MagMan5446]

Damn Demonguy8....you got TOLD!!!!

[Butterfingers]

Oh boy... if we are talking about firing without shootdown stock angels start having shootdown sub 10 bps. If we are talking about cyclic rate...youre gonna have to prove 30 cps now remember :)

[Lone Gunman]

Hey Butters, I got two words for ya: WOOT WOOT!

You just got hosed demon!

[mykroft]

Angel's top out at about 18bps as a max cyclic speed. the board/Solenoid are capable of more, but the stock configuration is pretty much limited to ~18 (bit faster for LED with it's lighter bolt), as manike posted many moons ago. Shootdown below 10bps, I don't think so, unless it's a problem with the Minireg (which I don't use anyways). I get a pretty darn tight pattern at 11-12bps, same pattern I get at 5, my Angel Chrony's ate +/-2 on a bad day, I'm not seeing shootdown. Fastest I've ever seen an angel shoot in semi is about 15bps, juggled or rolled(As I have mentioned before, I have a friend, a speed metal guitarist with 8+ years experience, who is absolutely insane on a trigger, especially one that can be rolled or juggled). I personally top out at 12, more like 8-10 in a game.

E-Mag, capable of faster speed than an Angel, have yet to see one shot very fast in straight semi, trigger can't be juggled or rolled, but it's insane in hybrid.

Matrix: Anybody can shoot these fast, 20 is achievable when rolling the trigger, after a trigger job. I top out around 15-16 when rolling the trigger, I've seen it do 20 in short bursts (8-10 balls) with a 12V warp. It's supposed to top out at 22.

Hinge Cocker: With a Blade, I'm as fast as I am on an Angel. By far the fastes mechanical gun IN MY HANDS.

The fact is, most people can't do more than the 11-12bps that every good hopper feeds at. So some people are faster on some guns than others. I'm fastest on an Angel or blade hinged Cocker, when not rolling the trigger, others are faster on an E-Mag or VM-68. It's all preference folks. Firing rates over 17-18 a second really don't matter beyond keeping the recharge as fast as possible under 18bps or so.

[RT_Luver]

WAY TO GO...now with Lvl 10 on our side, I say there will be more of the like hopefully. to heck with angels and cockers....GO E-MAG

[RaV3n_Pa1ntba||]

Only if i had a Video Cam.

I pulled of 19bps (F/A of course) easy on my angel, no chops, no skips, barely any noticeable drop off.

GG emag :(

[Butterfingers]

are you sure? It was 19 BPS? or was it 52.6ms between shots?

If you read it off the ROF calc on the angel it is not 19 BPS but rather your fastest 2 shots were 52.6ms apart.

[SqueegeeKid]

I find it kinda weird that back when Angels came out everyone was saying they were sooooo fast. It could outshoot a revvy and all that. Well, back then the revy was the only electronic hopper, no newfangled HALOS feeding like a madman.

Now that a Mag can shoot faster than any other gun it doesn't seem important, cause no hopper/human can keep up.

Well, i think that's kinda funny, AGD's feeding all the AngelWhores their propaganda back to em.

[Havoc_online]

I think you may have meant VL200?

yeap, my bad.


You just got hosed demon!

guys c'mon, don't egg it on. Thanks for backing me up on the facts but this guy was venting and just got caught on the wrong side of a debate. Remember, he is still part of this forum. Sorry demon, but you've got to be careful on what you say on this board because everything needs common sense, logic, and proof.:)

[ICOM]

Angel owners know their wrong about the rof so there saying " i got 19 bps on my angel" and stuff like that. They don't want to tell the truth about it.

[demonguy8]

maybe i was trying to be a little bit to politcally correct about my 1st post for it too be clear(ironically it was made that way to NOT offend people).... for that I'm sorry

the point of it all was that it is ignorant to claim that ANY EMAG will OUTSHOOT ANY angel.
a point which Havoc recognized and responded to civily...(thank you for keeping it civil havoc)

My second point was that the RATE OF FIRE is the same some odd 97% of the time simply because of human limitations on pulling a trigger.(I did not say cycling rate was the same NOR did i say there would be no droppoff for the angel, Butter and Frausty please READ a post fully before responding).

Ill make this look more mathamatical for you guys:

-the shooters best trigger speed: variable X
-max cyclic rate on angel(semi)= 18bps
-max cylic rate on rt= variable R, and R>30(credit to butters for a more accurate description of R)
-now a paintball must be fired for it to count as being Shot (as opposed to cycled)
-there must be one trigger pull for each ball fired (semi mode)
-halo feeds paint= 20bps* (if its greater than 20 deal with it because its only here as an example of limits to the max shooting rate)
-Since the guns need paint to be fired the Angels max shooting rate is still 18(since it cant cycle at 20) while the RTs max shooting rate drops to 20(since halo cant feed to 30+)

if everyone is still with me... ALL my above post was saying was that since 18>x, that R>18 IS MEANINGLESS FOR SEMI PLAY!, R>18>x means that BOTH THE ANGELS AND THE RTS MAX SHOOTING RATE IS REDUCED TO X!... x=x (last time i checked) so they have the SAME SHOOTING RATE WHILE IN SEMI MODE

18>x means 18 bps is greater than the fastest a human can pull the trigger in semi mode.....
if you dont't believe me post a vid of somone doing it, prove me wrong, and I will RECANT MY STATEMENT THAT THEY HAVE THE SAME ROF FOR SEMI MODE AND MAKE A PUBLIC APOLOGY.

NOTE: thank you to all the ppl that replied with thought out and backed up arguments.
TO the uncivil and the people who posted with no useful info.... find another thread to postwhore in please.

[manike]

Whilst X is an unlimited variable your equation is not valid.

Once X>18 your points are moot. And since X is not limited by the gun or any software it is theoretically possible for X>18.

Since this is the case the marker which has the greatest cyclic rate must be the marker which has the greatest potential for ROF. And thus the one which has the potential to outshoot the other.

It is ignorant to claim otherwise.

It may be very difficult to acheive X>18 but it is not impossible (very few things are) and depends very much on what is a legal method of achieving X.

As you point out the markers rof is limited to X WHILST X<18. After that (once X>18) the markers rof is limited to cycle rate. Thus the limit to potential ROF and thus the only valid value to compare in such a discussion about potential ROF is their cycle rate.

You made a very nice post but didn't prove anything :)

Whilst in practice the same person may achieve the same value of X on each gun, the highest possible value of X that can be achieved is with the E-mag in comparison to the Angel.

Thus any e-mag COULD outshoot any angel. (Note I did not use the term 'will').

manike

[Butterfingers]

Yes the E-mag has the potential to outshoot an angel by a wide margin but in most cases the potential will never be realized.

[Havoc_online]

another thought to add, as far as I have heard and know, the Emag trigger can be made lighter than that of the angel's, therefore making it easier to achieve a higher ROF. You have to take into consideration that they not only cycle at different speeds but have a different trigger. BTW the HALO B can feed slightly higher than 20BPS and so can a 12v warp.

[demonguy8]

i understand your point... (and yours was a nicely thought out post) but I cant believe that a human being is capable of makeing X>18... (Im one who must see it to believe it)
X itself is limited by a humans ability to pull the trigger... which is as i stated less than 18 a second.
A rate which I suppose Im debating to be impossible(like a great many things are) for a human to do in semi mode...

Once again if somone can get a vid. proving me wrong I will recant/apologize but until then I will stand by my statements...

I guess you had a nice post but it didnt prove anything to me the same way as mine didnt to you :D

perhaps we should make a open challenge thread to see if infact anyone(here atleast) can do faster than 18 in semi?? (note: *HYBRID DOES COUNT AS SEMI* as far as im concerned since i assume someone would probably pick an emag to test with since it has the !2nd highest! cyclic rate *standard rts are capable of a higher cyclic =D* combined with a great trigger)

[Havoc_online]

perhaps we should make a open challenge thread to see if infact anyone(here atleast) can do faster than 18 in semi?? (note: *HYBRID DOES COUNT AS SEMI* as far as im concerned since i assume someone would probably pick an emag to test with since it has the !2nd highest! cyclic rate *standard rts are capable of a higher cyclic =D* combined with a great trigger)

what does the 18 matter, what matters from your point of view is how fast the same person can shoot both guns isnt it?(BTW in any case, anyone who hit at least the mid teens would have better shot to shot consistency with the Emag)

Emag valve's and RT valve's can both perform at the same level and cycling speed.

[demonguy8]

1. im bored.
2. a little friendly controversy/competition makes forums much more entertaining...
3. im actually curious to see if someone CAN do it

[manike]

Originally posted by demonguy8
i understand your point... (and yours was a nicely thought out post) but I cant believe that a human being is capable of makeing X>18... (Im one who must see it to believe it)

wether you believe it or not is irrelevant in terms of the posts and points/equations you were making. Since it is unknown you can not limit it. It must stay a variable. You can not limit it to less than 18 and then say 'show me proof otherwise'. Especially when that is the whole crux of your argument :) You are trying to base a factual arguement on your opinion, which doesn't cut it I'm afraid.


Originally posted by demonguy8
X itself is limited by a humans ability to pull the trigger... which is as i stated less than 18 a second.
A rate which I suppose Im debating to be impossible(like a great many things are) for a human to do in semi mode...

Exactly, you stated it to be less than 18. But you do not have any proof or evidence of that. It is not a fact, it's an opinion and what you base your whole issue on. You need to base your arguement on proven facts not unproven opinions. A lot of it comes down to what you call valid semi auto? Is walking a trigger still semi auto? is the movement of the trigger what dictates semi auto? This is a big discussion we had back in deep blue (when it was fight club) and at the time I did have what I classed a semi auto trigger that would allow over 18 shots per second.


Originally posted by demonguy8
I guess you had a nice post but it didnt prove anything to me the same way as mine didnt to you :D

You mean it didn't prove that your equation was making an invalid assumption? That your basis of arguement was an opinion on something you don't know for a fact? That it didn't show that the potential capability is in favour of the e-mag? OK ;) No point my banging my head against a brick wall to do it again.


Originally posted by demonguy8
perhaps we should make a open challenge thread to see if infact anyone(here atleast) can do faster than 18 in semi??

certainly once you define clearly and unequivically what semi is... (and I don't mean hybrid either, just semi) we tried doing that before in Deep Blue and it got into a very heavy discussion which didn't meet with a final agreement.

manike

[manike]

BTW, when walking a trigger (with two fingers) it is very possible to get a rate between two shots that would equate to over 18bps. In this case the e-mag would fire those shots at the rate of 18bps or over (upto it's limit) but the angel would not. (it might fire two shots but the rate would be 18bps.) It's not so easy to sustain that rate for 3 shots though ;)

It's only over two shots but that's all you need to calculate a rate... as seen by the Angel LCD's read out :D

manike

Hey I need to get out of here and go to AGDE... :)

[Shaft]

Ack! I'm getting a headache... This Angel vs Mag stuff is making me want to go buy a Phantom.. :D

Hey I realized somthing... It really seems that the Automag vs Autococker debates have fallen to the wayside in favor of the Automag vs. Angel. EMags are cool.