Has Anyone Else Drawn These Conclusions?

[Cliffio]

Ok lets face it chopping paint sucks, but it happens it happens with ACE it happens with COPS, whats to say it isnt gonna happen to the lv10?

i mean there ARE other things that have an impact to paintballs, like the weather, he manufactorer, loader speed, all these things can do you wrong no matter what system you have of not chopping.

it seems to me that all this hype about lv10, COPS, ACE and all the other chop systems, is similar to the LP hype a few years ago, now we all think that lp is useless, or well, not what it was suppose to be.

i just think that everyone has their panties in a wad about all this new stuff, when nothing will ever stop people from chopping, now yes i know it will decrese blah blah blah....

i can say that yes, eyes and systems do work, sometimes, maybe even most of the time, but what about the times it doesnt, i mean lets look at the shocker, its lp right? and SOMETIMES it will pinch balls and not chop right? but shockers chop, i know, ive had one.


anyways, all im trying to say is that agd is no better than smart parts or anyone else when they are trying to sell their latest and greatest, taking advantage of people when lp is hot or anti-chop systems are hot, all are the same

i would reccomend that like the sig says, dont believe the hype
-- i cant remember whos sig says that:)

Cliff

p.s.-i could be way off base here, but thats how i see it, ive been gone from ao about a month and i come back and this place is all hyped up about some level 10 stuff. so im just goin at it like i see it

[FrAuStY]

I understand what you're saying about the weather.. BUT the LVL10 has been proven to stop on a BALL! If the bolt stops on the ball why will it break? Because its wet? Not the guns fault, solution.. don't play in the rain unless necessary! Brittle paint, everyone would be chopping and the LVL10 mag would stop on a ball and not chop. Now I'm sure this will have to be done with tuning of the vent system but once you get it working it should be the lightest bolt system on paint. Have you watch the mag video of tom holding a piece of electrical tape with a ball stuck to it, halfway in the path of the bolt? The bolt just stops! Even strong paint on a non lvl10 mag wouldn't be able to do that. Be a disbeliever if you want to but research and evidence(4 vids of non chopping mags!) shows this will greatly reduce the chance of a ball break. They may not go away completely, i.e. a cracked ball that you don't see slips through the quality control at rps and doesn't leak in the bag. You shoot it and it explodes down the barrel. I wouldn't call that a chop and from the looks of it the bolt would probably still stop on this cracked ball as long as theres no hole or paint leaking. Nonetheless this situation is not the guns fault, it would have happened to anygun, less likely to happen in a LVL10 mag.
Also, as for your comment about AGD trying to sell their latest and greatest thing you have it all wrong! Ao and other mag owners brought to the attention the point that mags seem to be a little harder on paint than other markers. AGD is the type of company that cares what the purchaser/owner of their product wants. What do they do? The make the upgrade that solves the problem. AGD revolutionizes most of its products to make them BETTER not make more money! Sure AGDs a business and does make a profit but at least their equipment does what it says! You want a reliable virtually maintianence free marker. Any mag will do you fine if you leave it like it is from the factory. You want a gun that can fire incredibly fast and is virtually maintainence free? RT fires 26 cps (cycles per second) WITHOUT MEASUREABLE SHOOTDOWN. No other marker has come close and has proof.. I.e. sound file analyzed showing 26 intervals. People wanted to get the hopper off the top and lower their profile.. AGD delivers the warp feed which was copied by PTP. You want a gun that lowers your profile and fires 20 b.p.s. without chopping Warp-Extreme LVL10 mag. All I can say is, I'm not laming you.. but do some research about what AGD has done for the paintball world before you say they're just out to make a money off their new "upgrades"! Most upgrades AGD has made was because WE as the paintball community were hopelessly looking for solutions to problems that were arising, and every other company was out making their guns perform worse.. WGP cockers need I say more, AGD was helping us find those solutions at their own expense! No one else has research what happens to paintballs and flight and actually documented it for your viewing. No one else has documented the affect of rifling paintballs to see if they're more accurate. No one else made perfectly round plastic paintballs to see if they were more accurate than the ones we use now. They didn't get paid for the hours.. they didn't get a NEW product to show for it. They did however let the paintball community know what they had done. Anyway.. Thats my .02 on the topic

Like I said.. this wasn't a flame.. I guess I'm just tired of hearing people speak in dimeanor toward a company like AGD. If it were Exxon or Sears I could careless as they ARE all about profit. Lol hope we can still be friends :p
If you wanna see somethings I'm talking about go here (http://www.automags.org/resource/tech/tomstech/index.shtml). Peace!

[Cliffio]

everything works in the test arena, im talking about months from now down the road, i mean i know it works, im not saying it doesnt work, but is it going to work like ace works or like cops works?

i mean ace and cops both were great when they left the factory, but now cops works sometimes and other times not at all

i just believe that anti-chop systems are the rage, and so agd bought into it like smart parts, like wdp

i really dont know what im trying to say here, its just that it seems to me that it really isnt that best thing ive seen agd do, and time will tell whether or not lv10 works out

its like the superbolt, yeah it was great till people had problems

just give it a month and see how everyone likes it
CLiff

[virus]

i agree... this may not be all it cracked up to be.... but so far i'm conviniced from the videos..... and i ordered the LvX kit to test it for myself.... i plan on putting it into my backup micro which is a cob job in itself.... micro body, agd single trigger frame, minimag valve etc.... i figure i set it up in that, bring it to the field and let people that never used a mag before take it out on the field.... i figure if they cant get it to chop then most others probly cant either.... but that is what my little newbie test will be for =) of course i plan on using it too that day

[AGD]

If you read back on my previous posts you will see that I defined 2-3 bounce paint as stopping the bolt on a LVL10. It will not stop on very fragile tourney paint and yes it will chop that typr of paint under the same circumstances.

The whole point of the LVL10 matter is that we are much better than where we were before. I know for a fact that very fragile tourney paint will break down the barrel for no particular reason 1 in 200 times in the tourney guns we tested. Thas was loading them one at a time to eliminate the ball stack influence. That's why many pro tourney pictures show paint coming out of the barrels.

AGD

[Cliffio]

that i can understand, im sure that very few systems can not chop at all, but i also think that most people here believe that lv10 to be impervious to chops when its not, not to say that it is anyone fault,

but i also think that lv10 can be a step in the right direction, its just like what i said before that time will tell how well this system will really work


it just seems to me that this lv10/ace/cops is a phase, like the LP phase

Cliff

[hitech]

Originally posted by Cliffio
all im trying to say is that agd is no better than smart parts or anyone else when they are trying to sell their latest and greatest, taking advantage of people when lp is hot or anti-chop systems are hot, all are the same...

I would disagree. The idea is sound (I had the same basic idea but coun't figure out how to implement it). Based on the videos, it appears to work VERY well. It's only costing me $65 to find out for myself. All that adds up to a big difference in my mind. :D

[Cliffio]

thats fine, you can disagree, but i think that marketing is still marketing, selling the first 10 or whatever is smart business, then testimonials come rollin in over the first couple weeks, and bam agd sells 100

sounds just like smart parts or anyone else to me
expect, they have pros to give testimonials

Cliff

[hitech]

Originally posted by Cliffio
...selling the first 10 or whatever is smart business, then testimonials come rollin in over the first couple weeks, and bam agd sells 100...

I don't understand what you are trying to get at. As far as I know, they have sold somewhere around 100 "beta" kits. Most (hopefully all, but it never works that way) of the people who bought one of the "beta" kits are excited about being part of the testing/developement of a new product. I believe it is going to make a big difference. I NEVER believed that LP made a big difference. :D

[Cliffio]

they are beta versions
they are really for AO members only
they are in a hidden shop

seems to me that AO would be the guine(sp) pigs

then when everyone has one, agd will unleash them into the real agd shop and price them at 200 bucks or whatever the final version will be at

Cliff

[Butterfingers]

I predict most of the problems are going to come from not setting up L10 correctly.

If you want 300 fps and you put the lightest mainspring in you ARE going to chop. However, with the correct mainspring it is unlikely for L10 to chop.

COPS and Electronic eyes rely on the optical or physycal detection of the ball to prevent firing. If it malfunctions there is nothing to stop the bolt from hurling itself into the ball.

In L10 there is nothing to stop the bolt from hurling itself into the ball anyway. But the process of the bolt hurling itself into the ball is so light that it is unlikely to cause breaks. Only IF it is setup correctly.

Plus, I trust AGD. They actually spent numerous man hours researching the "physics" behind ball breakage, unlike other companies who just lower the pressure, then hope it works then hype up thier products.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Cliffio
they are beta versions
they are really for AO members only
they are in a hidden shop

seems to me that AO would be the guine(sp) pigs



Sort of. The formal term is beta testers. We were warned. We were told that if we didn't want to be beta testers, DON'T BUY IT.


Originally posted by Cliffio

then when everyone has one, agd will unleash them into the real agd shop and price them at 200 bucks or whatever the final version will be at

Not exactly. When AGD is sure they work correctly they will be released. The final price is $85 (or maybe $80). A good investment IMO (I'm never humble). :D

[RaV3n_Pa1ntba||]

I dont break paint :D

I love my angel, im not going to sell it to get a mag with level 10. Great idea, and if i ever have extra cash, ill just build a hyperframe mag with level 10. Looks nice but all i can say about my angel is the only times i chopped was because i forgot to turn my hopper on, besides that NO real chops ever. If you create the right setup and put on the propper mods/upgrades you can achieve an amazing non chopping gun. Just look at my gun :D

[Vegeta]

The Skeptical Inquierer....

...appearing when you least expect him.....

[manike]

Originally posted by Cliffio
i would reccomend that like the sig says, dont believe the hype
-- i cant remember whos sig says that:)

Mine! and it has done for over 7 years!... (since I first started posting on the net).

I'm 100% against hype and always have been. That's one of the main reasons I started and still do post on the net.

I'll post my opinions tomorrow when I'm not under the influence of a nights drinking and clubbing :)

manike

[Evil Bob]

Level 10 is definitely a step in the right direction, it may not cure all our ills or solve world peace, but if it drasticly reduces the ammount of paint a stock RT breaks, I'm sold. If I can put it on my 1992 68 Automag and it drasticly reduces paint chopping, I'm sold.

Currently Mags suffer from a bad public reputation of being paint blenders, that's usually the first thing I hear from the less informed or the downright ignorant and biased. Like the Angel Troll said, with the right mods and after market products, you can have a marker that will hardly ever break paint. I see Lvl 10 being one of those "right" mods just like the Warp when it came out. The nice thing about this mod is it's something that can be slapped on *any* AGD marker.

My Emag with Warp has only broken paint once in it's lifetime, and that was when I loaned it out to a friend who put crappy field paint into it (the paint was too big for the Jacko Infinity barrel). Lvl 10 would have prevented this entirely by not allowing the bolt to crush the ball. I have personally shot over 80 cases of paint through it without a single break. I have alot of confidence in my Emag, Lvl 10 will just add to that.

It's not hype when you can see it in action, its not hype when you can experience it for yourself, its just plain old reality. Tom has never been one for hype, not now, not ever, its not in his nature, he's all about solid facts and working product.

-Evil Bob

[cphilip]

Ok well I will wade in here....You knew I would! :)

Hype? well its only hype if it doesn't work at all...

So lets see here then what have we got here?

A mod that appears to restrict chopping reasonable paint to nill. And even unreasonable paint to a low percentage. Hmmmmm... I will surely tell you if it doesn't...

And a mod that will do it without electronic gadgets that are hard to set and fail when power goes away...hmmmm hype? Well I will surely not plug mine into any power so I am certain if it does not work it will not be due to that like a ACE system would...I'll be sure to tell you!


An mod that will work equally well on a manual marker as a electonic one? Well now lets see...how many manufacuters have those in a quality gun that can say that one same mod will even do ANYTHING AT ALL on all of them? Ummm....one. AGD.

So... hype it is then until it proves to make a marked improvement to those who try it. Gotcha! Will Do! and expose the hype here for sure! Count on it!

;)

[rudy]

you are right in what you are thinking cliffio unfortunately this is AGDs only choice. they found out the bolt speed caused breaks and this is thier solution. I dont htink its hype I think most of the hype is from loyal tk fans more then tom himself. You have got to reduce breaks in mags caused by user or after market error in order for the mag to be an attractive gun because unlike most guns the mag really bites when you do get a break so they need to do as much as they can to stop it. The real test will be if tom stops here or keeps going if lvl 10 works well. The mag has further to go but i enjoy the gun because really its one of the only original guns out there. most others do seem to be modified copies or clones. and I would hat to see it die. the next 2 areas that need work are gas consupmtion and kick/recoil/jump whatever you call it.

[Gijim]

I haven't seen enough of a difference between a mag or any other gun when it comes to gas consumption. I've seen all the facts, but in real life as a player there isn't enough difference for it to really matter. Thats why we have fill stations:p Everyone said the Tippmann guns ate gas too but I couldn't see a diff between it and an illustrator f4, which was supposedly better on gas consumption. What I'm trying to say is it does not have any real significance on a markers performance or on your own, it is hype. I don't understand the kick complaint, I can't see a real problem at all, but that is more of a personal preference. I have alot of respect for AGD, as far as I have seen NO COMPANY HAS TRIED SO HARD TO PLEASE NEW AND OLD CUSTOMERS, most companies just put out a new gun and expect you to buy it and dump the old one. What's amazing is you can take a 10 year old mag and upgrade with little investment to compete in tournaments now, that is unheard of in paintball but AGD has done it, WOW!!! :cool:

[RT_Luver]

yes, guns chop and break balls, but the world of chopping for mags is over(as soon as Lvl 10 is fully released) Lvl 10 has been tested and it has STOPPED on a ball. when the bolt comes in contact with a ball, it doesn't shoot. ow other guns have yet to do that, so I say AGD is in the lead again in innovations to paintball.......and know that I think about it, AGD I dnt think was ever behind anyone in that category