You can only hide your lack of skill behind your rate of fire for so long

[paint magnet]

Last time I played, I noticed just how true this was. I had sliced a ball(my fault, stupid autotrigger) in my SL 68 and didn't have a squeegie. We were playing speedball against a guy with an 00 angel LCD, a guy with a nice blue Dye Cocker and another guy with a cocker. On my team we had 2 people with rentals, a guy with a Spyder, and me. I noticed that I was able to pop up and shoot 4 times with my pump before the guy with the Angel even came close to hitting me. I did this a couple times and was amazed that he couldn't hit me. I was literally staring down my barrel with his goggles in my sights when he would start to come close to hitting me. So, if I work on my aiming, maybe I'll win next time. Anybody else have experiences with players who just hide behind walls of paint?

[shartley]

I like rec ball best for that reason. I like just having fun and placing well aimed shots. I tend to send out 3-8 ball bursts well aimed…. Saves paint, and is more of a challenge to me.

Fast trigger speed is fine, but it does not impress me as much as seeing someone pop off two or three shots and they hit where they are suppose to. :D

[mykroft]

Well, being one of those wall-o-paint type players, there are some advantages to the style. First off, I can keep you in your bunker, so the other folks on my team can move up and get an angle on you. you can't shoot if there's a wall of paint coming through where you'd need to come out. Second, there's my patented 'World's Slowest Bunker' move where I casually walk over and bunker you, using the wall-o-paint to keep you from shooting back. The Wall-o-paint manouver even works with pumps (been there, done that, 440rds in a 15 minute game, with a Sniper 3)

Now, for this style of play, you need deep pockets, good aim, and the ability to snap shoot. If you can't snap shoot, you are going to get massacred on the speedball field no matter how fast you can shoot, the wall of paint is a tactic, not a crutch. It doesn't matter how much you shoot if you can't put it in the right place at the right time.

[Jonno06]

go play some 2on1 and ull know what mycroft is talking about.

i hate those:((when im the 1 of course:))


and btw:ive been hiding my skill behind ROF for along time,and it seems to work quite well:cool:

[paintbattler]

yea some ppl do, but some ppl dont..the majority of the ppl do hide behind it..i would like to hide behind it...:D

[RT_Luver]

Originally posted by shartley
I like rec ball best for that reason. I like just having fun and placing well aimed shots. I tend to send out 3-8 ball bursts well aimed…. Saves paint, and is more of a challenge to me.

Fast trigger speed is fine, but it does not impress me as much as seeing someone pop off two or three shots and they hit where they are suppose to. :D


OR seein someone pop out shoot 104 times and hit them everytime(I exagerated a bit witht he 104)

[cphilip]

Sounds like that guy needs some target practice....

But a Steady steam of paint from the right position from someone who knows what he/she is doing can sure beat a little paint almost anytime...

[FrAuStY]

I just count the shots... 1234567.......177178179180.. then I pop out and elim ole boy while he's reloading.lol J/K, It doesn't bother me as I try to change the place where I pop out from regardless of munker size... I may pop out on their left of my bunker (my right etc) just to dawr fire..then I'll go to their right of my bunker immediately. This will throw them off and I may be able to pin/elime them with a good 3-5 shot burst.

[mykroft]

jonno: sometimes that stream'o'paint works if you're the one. I've taken out 2 guys by bunkering, using the stream of paint to keep them in their bunkers (1 bunker behind the other, ultimate airball, bouncing balls off the first bunker into the second. Very nifty trick the one time I pulled it off.)

[xmetal2001]

True, but i've been hiding behind my Matrix for quite some time now:D

Actually, im one of the most conservative people you'll ever meet in recball, but in tournaments its a whole different story.

[Scootyd]

In the woods a wall of paint (wop) will hold any newbie in their bunker. But, the seasoned player knows that a good low crawl is the very effective counter.

[paint magnet]

I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm saying it takes no skill.

[TransMan]

i only spray a lot in certain situations most of the time i conserve because im a poor high school student :D

[Farlow]

I find it very hard to shoot a lot of paint. I think it may be that I am cheap. If I get a game going in the backyard, my friends go through a case, while I am lucky to go thru 500 rounds. However, I do prefer to crawl for a half hour and shoot someone in the back with one shot. Been playing for 15 years and still have no interest in going for the flag and shooting a lot of paint. So I doubt I will be wearing out my RT Pro anytime soon. I must be tired because I am rambling..........

[CpSuPeRkId]

hey paint magnet, what is skill? its a simple question, and if u say crawling and aiming is skill, then thats your opinion, but to say high rof takes no skill? some people cant get 7 bps on an angel. those who can get that and higher are skillful in being able to shoot that fast. i hate when rec players say high rof takes no skill, because u know what somebodys gotta get that gun shooting and somebodsy gotta aim those 15bps. there is just as much skill in shooting fast as there is in not doin so, its just that in one scenario you are shooting slow and the other fast.

[Duck Hunt -xi-]

its called surpressing fire....... and keeping one of there top fire powers down is a good move by u man!

next time have a friend move in on him and bunker his arse

[covadsucks]

The pro's do it very effectively. The SC Ironmen have great paint dumpers...they can pin down anyone and let their front men do their jobs much easier. How else you think they can take the 50 on the break?

[mykroft]

It actually takes a modicum of skill to do effectively. If you do it effectively, you keep the right players out of the game until they can be taken out, if done wrong, you wasted lots of paint.

You have to know who to shoot, when to shoot, and when it just ain't going to work.

[~WarpedRT~]

There is a time, and a place for all types of firing. I play front for my teams, I am lucky to go through 1000 rounds in a whole day. Last time I played, I probably put only 600 rounds through my gun. Though, in air ball, I have found that if you unload on a smaller bunker, you can deflate it enought to hit the player behind it on the top of the head or something. Works very good, and they are wondering the whole time "How did he get me?"

For back players, unloading as much as possible off the break is mandatory. My team needs to get to their primary bunkers asap. Other times, mid players should be rainign paint to let the front players move up. the back players should always be firing, even if it is only a ball a second, or they should at least have a bead on some players and be ready to unload.

[paint magnet]

What I'm trying to say is that just shooting with the philosophy that if you shoot enough you will eventually hit them takes no skill. Also, you shouldn't have to rely on your rate of fire to keep you alive, because if you are good enough then thinking and planning your moves and shots will work. Example: Guy with Angel, standing half way up, just raining paint and not making any moves for half the game, and not hitting anybody. Eventually if he keeps shooting, no one will pop up and all he has to do is walk over and bunker the other team. How can you say that takes skill? One guy gets bunkered with no chance and the other one spends a fortune on paint and basically doens't have to do anything to get the elimination, so how is that fun? On the other hand, if no one rains paint without stopping, then both players have to rely on their moves rather than hiding behind a wop, and it results in a much faster paced, more intense, and more fun game that requires you to think. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

[j.t.]

I often get flamed by the pump players just for participating in any form of speedball or just shooting alot playing in the woods. But i dont always believe that just because you are shooting alot of paint that there is no skill used.

A back player who appears to be just dumping paint is actually one of the most important aspects of the team by my opinion. Except that the back players are usually doing alot more than just randomly dumping paint.
They are the ones who really contribute to the team aspect of paintball. They are usually communicating with there mid and front players and puttin the paint down on the other team so that the front players can actually move outside of their bunkers.

Think of what your team would be like without the talented back players. In speedball, you wouldnt be able to move, and you probably would not have any idea where the other team is because there wouldnt be anyone to tell you, or keep the opponents gun's down long enough for you to get a look for yourself.

Sorry for the long post... i was bored

[mykroft]

paint magnet: It does take some skill. I fI just sit there and shoot I do diddly. If I pin you in your bunker and come over and bunker you, I used skill to take you out. Sure it isn't as 'kewl' as sneaking up and backdooring you, but I'm 6'3 260lbs, I'm not going to be able to sneak around on the field, I'm just too darn big. So I use my advantages (Reasonably fast trigger finger, good aim) to make up for my weaknesses (Big target). Now if I just sat in the back and sprayed at anything that moves like a lot of people do, I'd be wasting my money and your time. Instead I use ROF to pin a player in while my front player (or myself) goes up and digs them out, it's skill.

Back players are as essential to the game as mid & front players, we just don't get the respect.

[pumpamatic]

I think it can go both ways. I played in a 3 man novice tournament and saw people who used it well and those who didn't. One game I played a team consisting of a good cocker, excalibur, and another good cocker. They're masses of paint got one of ours off the break, quickly took a back man, and I was left with a 3 on 1 in a mid standup. I think we should have never lost those 2 so quickly had we played better. Anywho, knowing I was going to get pinned down, I made my way across field to a man in the snake and bunkered him. Soon I'm shaking behind the snake as they had both men in mirror back standups against me. I put some on the cocker, then stayed tight and went to the excalibur. He bounced one off my visor and I shot him out. I got tighter and began snapshooting on the cocker, took him out in less than 50 shots. They easily could have had good communication and at least taken a flag pull for 35 points, but instead wanted the elimination for 10 points and just shot like crazy.

Another game was a team who were pretty new, they had an A-5, spyder and something else. I was pinned in most the game because they A-5 thought I was the one to watch for. Well, the all layed paint at me off the break and we ran a guy up the field to the center flag. He got the pull and I could only call things out to my teammate in a mid laydown. He took out 2 in back left and right standups and pinned down the middle standup. I then finally got my chance and moved to a mid laydown, shot a tight angle and took him out. Their storm of paint only required us to use a few different tactics and more patience to win the game.

Not long after we played a team with a back man who rained paint the whole game and his quick little front man got the flag like nothing. They used the tactic well and shut us out. Some teams rained paint on us and don't move, others pinned us in and moved while we couldn't see what was going on.
I think the tactic can go either way, but if you are going to use it you need a front man to move and your shooters need to stop for a second and tell the front men what they see. Use it wisely and it can work for you.

[mykroft]

pumpamatic: That's exactly my point. Laying paint is a skill, like any other, it only matters if used well.

[Creative Mayhem]

I believe in well placed shots, but there are exceptions to that rule. You need suppression fire, therfore you spray and pray. If you hit someone great, if not, you've kept thier head down, usually long enough to move up, or bunker them.

I have problems with spray and pray though, it costs too much especially with an Angel or other electro. Not to mention you loose some of your movement skills when you do nothing but "hide" behind your marker's wall of paint...
I have noticed my movement skills lacking since I got my Angel, so all I can do is go back to the tried and true Minimag. I find this works for me, I can move better in the long run, and it costs significantly less to play with the mag.

For all those who adopt the spray and pray, or limited paint method, do what you want. For me the choice is clear, both methods work extremely well with each other it just takes a little practice to know ehen and where to use each of them.

This works for me, and if you are like me, it will probably work for you. Hope it helps.

[Blade]

i look at it like this, if your playing front and on the break he shoots bout 20 shots, instead of putting up a wall of paint for you to get where you need to be. think about it

[paint magnet]

I don't have anything against speedball. I play speedball, and like it as much if not more than woodsball. And I play with a pump. And no one I play against or know uses a pump. After a while, you'd be surprised how much better it makes you, and then if you switch back to a semi you will be unstoppable. I guess raining paint has it's uses, but it's not my thing. (obviously);)

[mykroft]

paint magnet: you've got a point there. I purposely play with my lower-performance markers to improve those skills, or just play hopperball with an Angel.

[rudy]

paintslinging, dumping, if it takes skill then why was thier ever an arguement or thought that it didnt. Most of us here beleive in accuracy by volume. I dont like it but I beleive it. It takes skill and is skilless depending on how you look at it. think about it this way if you went into a 1v1 or 5v5 match and you played a team that was your self think like evil twin or something and you only had 50 balls each and the other team had 1000 balls each over the course of a few games the team with less paint would lose. this is very similar to arguements about camping and spam between clans on the internet. If you go into a clan match you can bet both teams will spam as hard as they can without breaking rules. and 2 players of equal skill the one who spams more is going to win he is turning odds in his favor. so in that light it takes no skill. on the other hand if the players are not equal then yes in fact there is skill behind it. if I can ring of 10 pbs and my oponent can only do 5, and i can hit my target 9 times out of 10 and he can only 1 out of ten then I am going to be more efective which means more skill, when you are trying to decide if what you do takes skill or not look at it this way if the guy you are going after could afford to lay that much paint woudl you still win? The real solution to all arguements is feild design which is an extremely neglected area of paintball. many feilds put exactly zero thought into thier design they either just trow up bunker where ever its easiest or it looks cool or copy something they saw at a tournament. And to be honest Im not to impressed with what I see at tourneys either. I for one think there should be some standardized feilds for some tourny play(not all). At feilds I build I design them to get people close together and give them ways to move and properly designed bunkers so a player can move without needing a player slinging paint. In order to play you dont need a back player but can use one if your tactic employs one. I think tourny paintball has gone to far needing the back players I think some feilds should utilize that style of play but not all.

[cris8762]

my 2 cents:
IMHO paint DUMPING is only essential off the break or if one of your front players is making a important move (bunker, flag pull, etc.) i play novice 3man and as a back player i agree that back players should either be constantly shooting or have a bead on a opposing player

at our last tournament i saw a back player on a am. team burn through 3 pods and a hopper in a little over a minute at 1 PLAYER! this was still in a 3 on 3 situation and he was just trying to get the guy out.....

i agree that it kept the guy IN his bunker well but IMO you dont need to shoot that fast to just eliminate a player....i mean..... if you want to create a stream for the guy to lean out into you should try to time it right, not just completely pound on this guy's bunker so that he never comes out on the side that you have the angle...i dunno...maybe he was trying to get him to lean out the other side so his front guy could get him...but it just seemed wasteful to me..i mean the guy already burned through 1 pod b4 that now he only has 1 left! what would this guy do if 1 or both of his teammates got out?! oh well, i rambled on too long, i was just trying to give an example..... hope i helped..:rolleyes: :D

[pito189]

I like cover fire it lets me make those long runs to the front. You can tell the difference too. Last 5 man event I played we tried a few different things, I was always shot out on the occassions when my backplayer didn't shot until he got into his bunker. When he did shot I managed the 50 on the break, and was able to get angles that made the difference between winning and getting spanked.

Edit for spelling.

[paint magnet]

I purposely play with my lower-performance markers to improve those skills, or just play hopperball with an Angel.

The Phantom is NOT a lower performance gun, nor is any other pump. They don't have the rate of fire or the features of expensive electros but they are still high performance guns.

[blackmag3]

The Phantom is NOT a lower performance gun, nor is any other pump. They don't have the rate of fire or the features of expensive electros but they are still high performance guns.

while i agree that the phantom is not a low prefromance gun , however , the blade , tiger shark and talons ,to name a few, are. so no all pumps are not high performance guns.

[mykroft]

Depends on your definition of performance, mine includes ROF. The Phantom is The Volkswagen Diesel of PB guns, it ain't fast, but it's hella reliable, looks cool, and never lets you down. I bust out the Spyder or classic mag (which is lower performance than my Angel) for this type of play, as I don't currently have a pump.

[paint magnet]

You have to take into consideration the fact that the Phantom wasn't exactly intended to be a fast- firing gun, and the gun performs exceptionally well at what it was designed to do, firing paintballs. Technically, it has no limit on balls per second since the user controlls that. I can shoot mine faster than I can shoot my Stingray, but like I said before, it is not meant to shoot fast, but to shoot accurately. I think Punisher's customs even offers an electro conversion that makes it capable of 10 + bps, but that's a different story. Anyway, I don't consider ROF to be a factor in judging performance. I guess it all depends on your definition.

[paint magnet]

Yes, but guns like the Blade and Talon don't even have all metal parts, they break often and there is no point in fixing them, they are not accurate, not reliable, not efficient, not quiet, not customizable, they're just crappy low priced guns. That's kind of like comparing an E-mag to a Black Dragun. Sure, they're both electros, but the Emag is obviously a higher performance gun.