The Pledge of Allegiance Unconstituitonal

[845]

Give me a break :rolleyes: people need to stop this stupidity.

[obsolete898]

This is political, but it kinda of is. We do have a seperation of relgion and government so I do see wher they are coming from. But I say if you have a problem with it, don't say it. It's that simple.

There are alot of things in this country that have referances to god, especially in the military. If you don't agree with it you have a right not to say it. No one can force a belief on you plain and simple.

It's just like the prayer in public schools. There is a place for it and that's not really one of them. I mean how do you decide which prayer to say. If it was anything like my high school you'd need to find a prayer that covered: Catholic, Protestant(multiple denominations), Judaism, Muslim, Budhist, wiccan(sp) and acouple others I don't remember right now.

The funny thing was I went to a catholic high school. I can't imagine the confusion in a public school.

[FactsOfLife]

Fine, then all the people who agree with this asinine ruling can stop using our money too. See, there's this little phrase on it, goes something like "In God We Trust".

should be fair I think.

[ThePatriot]

Hey man, you dont have to say the pledge, you are legally required to stand up for it, but not say it. They cannot force you to say it, and of course our money says "In God We Trust" because we are still a young nation that will be one day considered barbaric for having that, because in about 3000 years christianity will be considered mythology. People believed in the Roman Gods for years, were they right?

[RT_Luver]

Originally posted by obsolete898
It's just like the prayer in public schools. There is a place for it and that's not really one of them.



funny thing I got to say....

right B4 they took prayer out of school, my dad was telling me, they did a survey on the teachers about what was the worst problems they had in school. their answer: chewing gum, throwing paper, back talk, etc..

acouple years after(about 5 or something like that) they did the same survey. the techers answers: rape, shootings, fights, murder, etc...

just something to think about.

IMO, this country was based on the Bible, now I aint sayin that we have to force ppl to read it, I mean we have freeedom or religion goin right now, but prayer in school I think should diffenately happen again. i mean, they dont gotta pray if they dont want to, or they can say their own prayer, but I believe it should be there.

this could be a little "off topic" but I just wanted to say that

[obsolete898]

you are legally required to stand up for it

Ii don't think that's true. It may be uncuthe(sp) and disrespectful, but not punishable by law.


Fine, then all the people who agree with this asinine ruling can stop using our money too. See, there's this little phrase on it, goes something like "In God We Trust".

Those people want that removed too.


because we are still a young nation that will be one day considered barbaric for having that, because in about 3000 years christianity will be considered mythology. People believed in the Roman Gods for years, were they right?

Well there is proof that Jesus did exist (wether or not he is the son of god is debatable), so it can't be mythology if he actually existed. There is no proof on roman gods.

This is getting close to a no-no topic.

[tsc]

Originally posted by obsolete898
This is political, but it kinda of is. We do have a seperation of relgion and government ...

No we don't. The constitution just says that the state cannot pick the religion of the people. There is NOTHING that says church and state must be separated, other than disallowing the president to choose the religion of the country. That's why N. America was first settled, to get away from forced religion.

[obsolete898]

the techers answers: rape, shootings, fights, murder, etc...

There are many more reasons for that than prayer.


IMO, this country was based on the Bible,

How?


I mean we have freeedom or religion goin right now, but prayer in school I think should diffenately happen again. i mean, they dont gotta pray if they dont want to, or they can say their own prayer, but I believe it should be there.

What prayer should the teacher say? How do you chose what religion? Cause if you choose one you'll alienate another religion. There is no fare way to do. The only thing you could do is make a designated "spiritual time". If my memory serves me correctly most kids would sleep, talk or just vegitate.

[obsolete898]

The constitution just says that the state cannot pick the religion of the people.

But by having the words under god implies an affiliation to a christian religion. Why can't it say "One nation under Allah". There are muslims here.

Personally I think it should stay, and if you don't want to say it then don't. But I also feel that the Christian community (of which I do belong) feels that they more than any one else deserves to be in the governing body. This country is trying to be equal in all ways, then it needs to be equal in this one.

[RT_Luver]

IMO, this country was based on the Bible,



Originally posted by obsolete898

How?



well in my figuring(this is just what I think and basically has no other real point then to how I think) ppl came to America to be able to study the bible because they were presecuted for it int heir other countries. once we became a Country, as you can see, we printed In God We Trust on our money, and for a while actually presecuted ppl of other religions. in what MY mind says to me is that, we held the Bible very close to us and were CERTAIN in it. this is from where I get that we based our country on it. over time, SOME(I'm saying this so no one can argue with me) people have gotten "lax" in their religions and just sort of fell from it into a state where they dont really know what is tru. this is how I see it. ya'll might not, but ya'll aint me either

[RT_Luver]

Originally posted by obsolete898


But by having the words under god implies an affiliation to a christian religion. Why can't it say "One nation under Allah". There are muslims here.



well I have a VERY good friend that is muslim and ahve talked to him about it several times and from what I understand Allah is their God. they just dont refer to him as "God". they also believe in Jesus, they just believe he was a prophet I think. I'm just gathering this informatin form what I have heard in about 5 conversatins with him about his reliegion. som I'm not a Muslimresearcher or nuttin. I'm just try to clear it up the way that I was told from him

[obsolete898]

came to America to be able to study the bible because they were presecuted for it int heir other countries

The Puritans came over because they were persectuted in England because of thier denomination basically. They didn't follow the church of England so they were persecuted. Funny thing is, they both followed the bible.
The puritans were just a more orthodox denomination.

[tsc]

Yes, there are muslims here. But in 1776, there were christians or catholics.

I think now God doesn't signify the christian god, but means simply "insert deity of choice here".

Re: prayer in public schools.

On september 11th my principal led a prayer. NO ONE out of 1800 students, teachers and staff complained. Muslims, Christians, athiests (I'm assuming a moment of silence for them, or just a wish), wiccans, and Jews all prayed one prayer. If you look at the holy texts of pretty much any major religion, they are nearly the exact same thing, simply in differnt words, with different people and different goals. The same revalations are to be had, the same miracles happen.

I think declaring the PoA unconsitutional goes along the same vein as declaring legal tender unconstitutional because it has the words "in God we trust" on it.

I love how some people are perfectly willing to take and spend the money with that phrase on it, while protesting it. :rolleyes:

By the way, this is SanFran, the same town that declared, "Dogs don't have owners, they have Guardians" and enforce that law. Won't even go there..

[StuDawggie]

Before this thread gets shut down for being political, AND religious, let me say this. This decision was made by the 9th court of appeals that has jurisdiction (sp) of 9 western states (California, Montana, Nevada, Alaska, Hawaii, NM, and I'm not sure of the other 3) so this does not affect the entire US. Next, the 9th court of appeals has the highest turn over rate from the supreme court than any other appelate court in the country, so don't get your panties in a bunch. Odds are that this will be over turned by the supreme court if they don't reverse the decision themselves (which is very likely in this case).
Now that I've said that I hope everyone will relax, and not worry about this, because it's going to be reversed somewhere down the line, and this will soon be forgotten.

Just my $.02.

[MagMan5446]

See the problem with religion is that nobody knows the truth. No one ever will know. That's a reason why we dont and shouldn't have it in public schools. What happens when the whole school believes in a certain religion, but there's another group that believes in a different and then they get pissed at each other? Violence. Violence has been associated with religion forever. The crusades, the holocaust (somewhat religion based), constant persecution of other religions in 3rd world countries and whatnot. It's somewhat like communism, great idea but no one can do it right. If everybody kept to themselves what they believed and learned about it in their own time when they felt they needed a religion to turn to, then it would be great. But they don't and they refuse to because somebody always has to be right.

[tsc]

Unless they segway into mud flinging, political and religous threads are usually let be until the smallest hint of those comes up. This is a rather important thing too, and not a personal opinion/flame.

It was the 9th DISTRICT court in san fran, not the 9th court of appeals.


The man who broughtthe suit up is claming his daughter was "injured" by being "forced" to say the PoA.

StuDawggie If the subject of your post was aimed at me, edit it. It's offensive and immature.

[Polishpickles451]

well this is pretty interesting i think.

First of all, about Christianity being considered mythology in several centuries like the Greek gods...
That's not qute accurate, cause Greek religion was barely religion as we would understand it. It was casual, not faith based, had no concept of salvation or morality. That is why Christianity and other cults and 'mystery religions' became so popular in Rome. Whether you like it, the message of Christianity is far more deep and meaningful to alot of people. I'm not christian, but I respect the fact that christian morality and thinking is a predominent driving force in world politics and culture ( unlike in ancient times with mythology)
Even though I'm living in the United States, I am a Polish citizen, and don't feel obliged to recite the allegience, but stand and respect the outward display. I find that that undermining this tradition is a grievious fault, and that it's because people don't care about thier nationhood. America picked a safe local to start a nation, where I come from, freedom and liberty were faught for and maintained by vigilence and cooperation, and was taken away by invaders. Many Americans comment about the bravery of the POlish people throughout history, as this concept is distant for Americans, as for generations, Americans have faught only political wars on foriegn soil.

[obsolete898]

Magman good post


If you look at the holy texts of pretty much any major religion, they are nearly the exact same thing, simply in differnt words, with different people and different goals. The same revalations are to be had, the same miracles happen.

True but people don't think that way and they become violent like magman said.


I love how some people are perfectly willing to take and spend the money with that phrase on it, while protesting it.

They don't have a choice if they live here, and they are trying to change that too.

Yea SanFrans court definately have some hugely liberal out comes. Way to liberal for me.

LOL Sarah.

[StuDawggie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sarah
It was the 9th DISTRICT court in san fran, not the 9th court of appeals.

From what I read the district court said that the PoA was constitutional with the "Under God" line, and it was taken to the next level (court of appeals) who delcared it unconstitutional, after the father who filed the charges (a doctor with a law degree) decided to appeal the lower courts decision.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sarah

StuDawggie If the subject of your post was aimed at me, edit it. It's offensive and immature.

As for the subject of my post it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. If you're refering to the whole panties in a bunch comment, that is a phrase that I tell anyone (male or female) who's getting into a tizzy about something that's being blown out of proportion. I appologize for offending you if that was it, but I'm just saying that this needs to take it's entire course to see what happens with it at the end of the entire proceedings. If it's about the 9th court of appeals being the most overturned in the country, that is a fact and I will not retract that.

[tsc]

Pickles- Nope! Muahahah.. 2years of latin taught me alot about classic religions. :)

The Greeks/Romans were HIGHLY religous, it was in no way casual. Sacrifices every day, making offerings to your household gods (Lares) and not doing anything that might offend the god you chose to worship. It was alot more of a religion than Christianity, in that they believed their Gods were tangible beings, simply immortal, and could (given the right incentives) do things for people. There was morality, it simply wasn't moral as we think "moral" should be.

Christianity wasn't popular in Rome, in was hated, as were its practitioners. Constantine converted to christianity in 312, after supposedly seeing a cross in the sky with the words "in hoc signo vincit" (in this sign you will conquer). Constantine went on to defeatMarcus Aurelius Valerius Maxentius at the Mulvian Bridge.

Anyone caught worshipping "heathen Gods" were crucified (oh the stinging slap of irony) or thrown to the lions (irony, yet again!).

*edit* more on topic, Do the people who support this decision want to change the entire constitution? There are MANY references to God/creator in the text. Oh NO! Someone might sue over the VERY WORDS that let them do so! We'd better change it!

[StuDawggie]

Originally posted by Sarah
Pickles- Nope! Muahahah.. 2years of latin taught me alot about classic religions. :)

The Greeks/Romans were HIGHLY religous, it was in no way casual. Sacrifices every day, making offerings to your household gods (Lares) and not doing anything that might offend the god you chose to worship. It was alot more of a religion than Christianity, in that they believed their Gods were tangible beings, simply immortal, and could (given the right incentives) do things for people. There was morality, it simply wasn't moral as we think "moral" should be.

Christianity wasn't popular in Rome, in was hated, as were its practitioners. Constantine converted to christianity in 312, after supposedly seeing a cross in the sky with the words "in hoc signo vincit" (in this sign you will conquer). Constantine went on to defeatMarcus Aurelius Valerius Maxentius at the Mulvian Bridge.

Anyone caught worshipping "heathen Gods" were crucified (oh the stinging slap of irony) or thrown to the lions (irony, yet again!).

DANG!!!! you covered more in those 3 paragraphs than some of my professors covered in 3 semseters of Mythology (granted we did have to cover greek, roman, and norse mythology). Next time I have an exam coming up or get stuck on my Myth homework I'm contacting you!

[obsolete898]

Very true. It's funny how Romans hated Christianity so much, then converted to it and Rome became the capital of Catholasism(sp).

[obsolete898]

Allah is their God. they just dont refer to him as "God". they also believe in Jesus, they just believe he was a prophet I think
J
ust like Yaeway(Badsp) is the Jewish god. I understand what you are saying, but when you say "God" the implication is that you are refering to the god of the Christains.


What prayer should the teacher say? How do you chose what religion?

Still haven't got an answer.:p

[Havoc_online]

ok well, how many of you think that the PoA should be done by all U.S. citizens? I for one do, whether or not you believe in a form of "god" or not, just insert your own line at the bottom. If you live on U.S. soil, and are a U.S. citizen who enjoys your freedoms, rights, and protection, then you owe the flag something....

[MicrOMag]

Originally posted by obsolete898
This is political, but it kinda of is. We do have a seperation of relgion and government so I do see wher they are coming from. But I say if you have a problem with it, don't say it. It's that simple.

There are alot of things in this country that have referances to god, especially in the military. If you don't agree with it you have a right not to say it. No one can force a belief on you plain and simple.

It's just like the prayer in public schools. There is a place for it and that's not really one of them. I mean how do you decide which prayer to say. If it was anything like my high school you'd need to find a prayer that covered: Catholic, Protestant(multiple denominations), Judaism, Muslim, Budhist, wiccan(sp) and acouple others I don't remember right now.

The funny thing was I went to a catholic high school. I can't imagine the confusion in a public school.

I just wanna add to this, while talking about god and government. The United States govt. was based on the Catholic and Prodistent religion. People need to get over it and quit being tree hugging politically correct bastards.


...If you guessed this issue pisses me off, you guessed right.

[MicrOMag]

Originally posted by FactsOfLife
Fine, then all the people who agree with this asinine ruling can stop using our money too. See, there's this little phrase on it, goes something like "In God We Trust".

should be fair I think.

I commented to someone I know about that as well. Like I said in my last post, our govt. was based on the catholic and protestant religion.

[MicrOMag]

Originally posted by obsolete898


There are many more reasons for that than prayer.



How?



What prayer should the teacher say? How do you chose what religion? Cause if you choose one you'll alienate another religion. There is no fare way to do. The only thing you could do is make a designated "spiritual time". If my memory serves me correctly most kids would sleep, talk or just vegitate.

He's right that the US govt. was based on the bible. Our founding father's practiced these religions and they based their morals and laws on their religion.

hence its based on the bible.

[MicrOMag]

Originally posted by obsolete898


But by having the words under god implies an affiliation to a christian religion. Why can't it say "One nation under Allah". There are muslims here.

Personally I think it should stay, and if you don't want to say it then don't. But I also feel that the Christian community (of which I do belong) feels that they more than any one else deserves to be in the governing body. This country is trying to be equal in all ways, then it needs to be equal in this one.



They WERE the governing body. Get over it. This country was based on their religions, not someone elses.

[MicrOMag]

Originally posted by Havoc_online
ok well, how many of you think that the PoA should be done by all U.S. citizens? I for one do, whether or not you believe in a form of "god" or not, just insert your own line at the bottom. If you live on U.S. soil, and are a U.S. citizen who enjoys your freedoms, rights, and protection, then you owe the flag something....

Exactly, its the pledge of allegence to our country, not god.


Would you not sing the star spangle banner if it mentioned god?

[obsolete898]

Originally posted by Havoc_online
ok well, how many of you think that the PoA should be done by all U.S. citizens? I for one do, whether or not you believe in a form of "god" or not, just insert your own line at the bottom. If you live on U.S. soil, and are a U.S. citizen who enjoys your freedoms, rights, and protection, then you owe the flag something....


Right on brother.


People need to get over it and quit being tree hugging politically correct bastards.

Yea down with equal opertunity and being compashinate(sp):rolleyes:

It may have been based on one of the protestant religions but it also gives us the right to not have any other religion pushed upon us.

Think twice about who you call "tree hugging politically correct bastards". If you read a little closer you may get my point.

I take it your point is that we should be closed minded and ignorant.

[MicrOMag]

Originally posted by Sarah
Yes, there are muslims here. But in 1776, there were christians or catholics.

I think now God doesn't signify the christian god, but means simply "insert deity of choice here".

Re: prayer in public schools.

On september 11th my principal led a prayer. NO ONE out of 1800 students, teachers and staff complained. Muslims, Christians, athiests (I'm assuming a moment of silence for them, or just a wish), wiccans, and Jews all prayed one prayer. If you look at the holy texts of pretty much any major religion, they are nearly the exact same thing, simply in differnt words, with different people and different goals. The same revalations are to be had, the same miracles happen.

I think declaring the PoA unconsitutional goes along the same vein as declaring legal tender unconstitutional because it has the words "in God we trust" on it.

I love how some people are perfectly willing to take and spend the money with that phrase on it, while protesting it. :rolleyes:

By the way, this is SanFran, the same town that declared, "Dogs don't have owners, they have Guardians" and enforce that law. Won't even go there..


h0 hum, it doesn't matter, it was just an Appelate court. The supreme court will rule the way Bush wants and he's already spoken of his disapproval for this decision.

[MicrOMag]

Originally posted by obsolete898

J
ust like Yaeway(Badsp) is the Jewish god. I understand what you are saying, but when you say "God" the implication is that you are refering to the god of the Christains.



Still haven't got an answer.:p


The implication when you say god is an ominiscent creator. (I came up with this definition on my own.)

Here's the dictionary's definition.
god Pronunciation Key (gd)
n.
God
A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
A very handsome man.
A powerful ruler or despot.

[MicrOMag]

No, you completely inferred wrong. I don't practice a religion, I'm not pushing my religion on anyone else. I believe we owe this great country the allegence that it deserves. My forefathers died so I could have the rights I have. Respect the country, and don't have political debates about whether or not the country that gave you all your very rights deserves your allegence.

The word god doesn't signify the christian belief (maybe you shouldn't be so narrow minded and ignorant and not just assume things, learn them as well)


Like I said in my last post, God is any ominiscient creator.


ps. this country is sue happy, anything to make a quick buck.

[obsolete898]

Yes this country is based on the morals of christain people, that's it. Most religions have similar morals any way. What I am saying is that when you put phrases like "In God We Trust" and the like you are giving the perception that the government endorses a certain religion, which is wrong by the constitution. The government needs to remain impartial in the ways of religion. Now I firmly belive that you should pledge your allegiance to this country, but not by way of a diety you don't belive in. Make it simple and take the line out, what harm does that do.

I don't think it should be changed, but if there are people that feel it infringes on thier religious rights, I see no problem in eliminating it.

Micro your posts are going the way of being insulting.

[MicrOMag]

Originally posted by obsolete898
Yes this country is based on the morals of christain people, that's it. Most religions have similar morals any way. What I am saying is that when you put phrases like "In God We Trust" and the like you are giving the perception that the government endorses a certain religion, which is wrong by the constitution. The government needs to remain impartial in the ways of religion. Now I firmly belive that you should pledge your allegiance to this country, but not by way of a diety you don't belive in. Make it simple and take the line out, what harm does that do.

I don't think it should be changed, but if there are people that feel it infringes on thier religious rights, I see no problem in eliminating it.

Micro your posts are going the way of being insulting.

You're going the way of being insulting. You're being plain ignorant. I gave you the defintion of god, yet you're too narrow minded to see that 'God' doesn't signify JUST the catholic religion. You go on with your little illusion.

Run along.

my rant.

[obsolete898]

I believe we owe this great country the allegence that it deserves. My forefathers died so I could have the rights I have. Respect the country, and don't have political debates about whether or not the country that gave you all your very rights deserves your allegence.

One, I'm not debating wether or not we should pledge our allegiance(read my posts and you'll find how I feel.

Two, don't give me your little speech on oweing this country something or having respect for this country. I'm the one with the gun defending it right now, so please relize that all you TALK about oweing and respect is over shadowed by my daily routine of putting my uniform on.




The word god doesn't signify the christian belief (maybe you shouldn't be so narrow minded and ignorant and not just assume things, learn them as well)

If this country was based in the beliefs of the bible then that would mean God in the PoA is the Christian god. At any rate when you say God it has the conotaion of the Christian God. This is becaus eother religions call him by a diferant name.

Also what about the people that don't belive in God, where do they fit in.

[obsolete898]

Ignorant means I would know nothing about the topic. Having gone to Catholic schools my whole life and taking many theology classes, I would have to say that i would know what I was talking about.

[langrage]

Well the PoA was put into effect in 1942 and the phrase "under God" in 1954 by Congress. So basically 12 years we recited it and didn't say "God". So it will not be just totally dropped from the morning ritual.

Also the man stated that he didn't feel that his daughter should have to hear it. As stated earlier you don't have to recite the PoA just stand if you do not believe in it. The fact that he was afraid that it would cause damage to his daughter by hearing it I found ridiculous. His daughter better never be near me when I am upset. I cuss like a teacher uses chalk. That in my opinion would be damaging.

Smokers I also suggest you don't smoke near his daughter, he might try and sue you for trying to kill her with second hand smoke.

[Thordic]

While I do agree that Californians are as a whole way too uppity, and I wouldn't be all too upset if I woke up one morning to find out the whole state fell into the ocean (Sarah, you are allowed to be on vacation then :) ), I do think its kinda funny that the OTHER side of the arguement gets so upset when the words "Under God", as langrage noted, were NOT part of the original wording. They were added later on by Eisenhower.

Let the agnostics run the country. Christians and athiests are on a whole way too militant. Agnostics just don't care :)

[Kaiser Bob]

Yes using the very word God already discriminates against those that believe in the absence of a god. Now those who says the Supreme Court will overturn this right away, its not going to be THAT cut and dry. If anyone has read the articles, you would see Congress's outrage. Well of course! Some have said themselves taking the wrong side would cost you next election season, so you will see that behaving in the interest of the MAJORITY of their voters. Now the Supreme Court obviously dosent have that same burden, and in recent times has gone the way of the strictest definition of the Constitution, as to avoid really bad decisions that had popular backing (Plessy v Ferguson, Dred Scott v Sanford). So the Supreme Court is going to have to consider the minority rights in this case, and in the strictest sense, the phrase does violate the Establishment clause of the First Amendmant, just like the currency might. Regardless, this looks to be a contriversial case that will make the history books.

[than205]

I choose to believe that the term "God" used in any government document I have ever read is the generic and non-specific god. (my opinion is that ole Ben Franklin had something to do with this)
I have yet to read any government document that mentions Jesus Christ or any other specific deity or prophet.

[ThePatriot]

Originally posted by MicrOMag
]The word god doesn't signify the christian belief (maybe you shouldn't be so narrow minded and ignorant and not just assume things, learn them as well)


Like I said in my last post, God is any ominiscient creator.


ps. this country is sue happy, anything to make a quick buck.

Well, i could say you are q u e e r(sorry mods but the stupid filter was going off and sensoring it, i am not attacking any individual person so i think its ok), sure the definition of the word means an odd outlook on life, or something to that extent. However, in this society today it means you are a homosexual, sure a lot of people do not agree with it, but thats how it is. I believe most of the country sees the word god as referring to the christian god.

[obsolete898]

I thought I was all alone for awhile there.

[ThePatriot]

Nope, i didnt get around to reading the post yet, you know me im always getting in trouble on AO :D Also, with my sig how could i not join in.

[obsolete898]

It's funny I'm Christian, but I usually agree with athiests(sp) and disagree with Christians. It's pretty ironic.

[ThePatriot]

Some people just think like that, I believe you said you went to catholic school, had you not you probably would be an atheist right now. However, all those years of Catholic school made you christian, an atheist stuck in a christian's body, or perhaps a christian, stuck in an atheist body, who knows?

[Kaiser Bob]

I still say its technically unconstitutional.

[obsolete898]

No the Catholic schools made me less religious. If I went to public school I'd probally be more religious.

[MicrOMag]

Originally posted by ThePatriot


Well, i could say you are q u e e r(sorry mods but the stupid filter was going off and sensoring it, i am not attacking any individual person so i think its ok), sure the definition of the word means an odd outlook on life, or something to that extent. However, in this society today it means you are a homosexual, sure a lot of people do not agree with it, but thats how it is. I believe most of the country sees the word god as referring to the christian god.

Yeah, but thats just because you ASSUME. You do know what they say about assuming, right?

[obsolete898]

Well he would ASSUME correctly, if a society uses a word a certain way then most people will understand it that way.

If you went to England and someone asked if you had a *** what would you say webster.

[InfinatyBPS]

Originally posted by obsolete898
Well he would ASSUME correctly, if a society uses a word a certain way then most people will understand it that way.

If you went to England and someone asked if you had a *** what would you say webster.

I would say, nope, sorry don't smoke... :)
And I'm just gonna stay out of this thread because I will probably get this thread closed...

[ThePatriot]

I do not think that this thread will get closed as of now. No one person is being insulted, and there isnt a question of religious beliefs, more an argument over a law. I could understand if this was abortion or something, but the PoA isnt that controversial an issue in today's society.

[steveg]

I think one point is being missed in the seperation of church and state debate.

The main objective of seperating church and state was the protection of the state, not church.

The world at the time was just emerging from a long period of less than benign rule by the church.

Perhaps one of you historians can confirm this,but I thought that there was a lot of resistance to including
the phrase "in god we trust" on currency.

Final thoughts. Freedom of religion also includes freedom from religion.

Do you really need to constantly repeat the PoA to know that you are a good citizen?

[than205]

Yes, you do.

[steveg]

Yes, you do.
Please explain, As A 43 year old Canadian who feels that I have been a good citizen of my Country
I have never had to publicly proclaim my loyalty. we do not have an equivalent pledge

P.S. I ask out of curiousity not because I want to change
anyones mind or impose my point of view

[Havoc_online]

I'm just curious, what is your country's pledge?
Do you really need to constantly repeat the PoA to know that you are a good citizen? The sad part of the matter is that most people even though they know the words and say it all the time, don't know what it means or what there are saying when they say it, I mean really understand what it is to pledge yourself to your country. I think americans should say it and should really take it to heart, with all my country has done for me, I'm sometimes very sorry and have a lot of guilt for not doing or giving anything back(armed forces).

[steveg]

Havoc, other than for new citizens we don't really have one.

[than205]

I think we in the US forget what it is to live in the US and how important it should be. It's funny that I'm writing this. Politically, I'm very moderate. But I feel everyone makes a stand somewhere. I believe that the PoA is and should always be a personal affirmation of living in the US. We get caught up in the daily BS and forget all the things that came before and is going on right now.
Honestly, I'm not going to force anyone to even stand during the PoA. But out of respect to a whole gambit of things, I ask that people be quiet and endure a few seconds.

[FutureMagOwner]

Originally posted by RT_Luver



well I have a VERY good friend that is muslim and ahve talked to him about it several times and from what I understand Allah is their God. they just dont refer to him as "God". they also believe in Jesus, they just believe he was a prophet I think. I'm just gathering this informatin form what I have heard in about 5 conversatins with him about his reliegion. som I'm not a Muslimresearcher or nuttin. I'm just try to clear it up the way that I was told from him

what i heard similar to that is that all those guys were prohpets the difference is that allah was the last prophet for the muslims and jeebus was the last for the christians


and no jeebus isnt canadian:D

[steveg]

than, I agree with your sentiment entirely Every day I wake up, look at the news and say to myself
"thank (non-denominational;) )god that I live in Canada!"

[Havoc_online]

IMHO the U.S. as a world leader should have better than average internal high values of itself, ppl need to show that we are happy with where we are because of the few who put us here and we will back our country full. Sadly, the few who do it don't get treated with as much admiration as they should and the ppl as a whole expect all while not having to give any. The country asks someone to pledge themself to it and they say it's too much.

[TooDamnSweet]

The sad part of the matter is that most people even though they know the words and say it all the time, don't know what it means or what there are saying when they say it, I mean really understand what it is to pledge yourself to your country. I think americans should say it and should really take it to heart, with all my country has done for me, I'm sometimes very sorry and have a lot of guilt for not doing or giving anything back(armed forces).

Very Good Point!


The Pledge of Allegiance (http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html)

[irbodden]

Originally posted by obsolete898


But by having the words under god implies an affiliation to a christian religion. Why can't it say "One nation under Allah". There are muslims here.


Sigh-

Don't bother cluttering this thread if you have NO clue what your talking about. Allah means GOD in Arbic, and literally refers to the same God Christians believe in.

[wyn1370]

I think the best part about this mess is the reaction of some people. The poor man has had obscene phone calls, had to pull his daughter out of school for fear of her safety and even death threats.
The man trys to make a point and gets a bunch of whack jobs after him.

[ThePatriot]

Just like there are extremist muslims, there are also extremist christians. Down here in Florida, once people found out my beliefs(displayed in my sig) i could say a good 10-20 people i knew stopped talking to me. Some people...getting mad at another for their religion, they are no better than Hitler. The man had a good point.


I apologize for posting earlier its not like its a big issue, i was ignorant in thinking if i didnt know about it, it wasnt a big deal. I just saw on the news today about the incident, i havent watched the news recently, i apologize.

[Miscue]

Redefine the dictionary meaning of God. Add a second definition that has nothing to do with religion. Declare that all references to God fall under that meaning.

Personally, I think all this is a waste of time... a fight over semantics.

[shartley]

Personally, I think all this is a waste of time... a fight over semantics.
I AGREE!!!!!!

It is clearly a case of wanting to make headlines.. period. If those who want that line taken out of the POA are so offended by it, and want to do something about it… they should also do the same thing for ALL Religious references in ALL Government things.. Money, State and Town Seals, etc. etc. etc. Of course does anyone know the amount of MONEY it would take to do that? Think about it…

For a country that is so vocal about everyone’s rights and being protected, people seem to fail to realize THEY have a right to NOT say the POA.

Does making this a major issue justify the time and resources taken to argue it? Does removing the word “God” from the POA really protect anyone? Can anyone actually tell me HONESTLY that hearing “God” in the POA HURT them in any way? And after all, THAT is why Laws and the Constitution was created… to PROTECT people from being HURT.

I say that leaving it in would hurt NOONE.. honestly.. but all this crap caused by trying to remove it hurts plenty. People really need to think about the fights they want to fight and the consequences that can come from them. I hate the fact that the “rights” of ONE person seems to be more important than the “rights” or beliefs of the majority….

This country has become so darn PC that it actually becomes contradictory to the reasons many of the Laws were put in place. We now have only reversed WHO has the power….. want to get your own way? Find SOME way to distinguish yourself from the rest and play on that… You will now become the minority and hold more power than you would know what to do with…… You can do darn near anything you want, just cry discrimination or minority status.

This whole thing just makes me sick to my stomach…
Next we will be banned from saying "God Bless America".... and our leaders will be for sure.. or they will be sued by some jerk who found it "offencive".

(added: The way our Leadership is handling this makes me proud to be an American… with ALL Members of Congress boldly saying the POA and then singing “God Bless America”. As well as Pres. Bush's replies to the press and Canada.)

[obsolete898]

Don't bother cluttering this thread if you have NO clue what your talking about. Allah means GOD in Arbic, and literally refers to the same God Christians believe in.

Really, does it, thanks for pointing that out.:rolleyes: I know that, but do you hear american muslims praying to GOD, no they pray to ALLAH. Because that is the word they have for thier god. You obviously are missing the point of what I am saying.

Here I'll clear this up. Muslims use the word Allah as a name for thier god. I do not mean that Allah is some other guy roaming around. So my conclusion is if you hear certain terms MOST people automatically think of certain things.

Allah-Muslim
Yaweh-Judaism
Zeus-Greek Mythos
*G*od-Christian religions.

Like I said before I do know a thing or two about modern religions, please don't tell me I have no clue.


Also if Allah is the same god as the Christian God then were's the referance's to jesus and the holy spirit in the muslim religion. Oh, there isn't so it can't be the same god, cause (I think protestant is differant) in Catholasism a God, Jesus, the holy spirit are one (trinity).

[irbodden]

First off the trinity exsists in Protestantism, secondly Muslims believe in the same "God" as Christians. However they believe the Bible has been tampered with over the years and they have the correct version. Allah ISN'T their god's name it is how they SAY god. For hispanics, is dios god? No- it's just how they say it in THEIR language.

And YES their IS a refrence to Jesus in the Koran, Muslims believe he was a disciple of God, and NOT his son.

I'll say it again you have NO clue what your talking about. Islam branched off of Christianity.

[shartley]

Actually you can not lump all “Christian” religions together.

Jews worship the same God as “Christians”, yet they do not believe Jesus was his Son.

Catholics believe in the Holy Trinity and also many other things that actually go AGAINST base core Christianity.. such as praying to Mother Mary, using Priests to “talk” to God and be forgiven, etc.

And “Christians” also have many variants in beliefs… Baptist, Southern Baptist, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormon, and far too many to list.. and each sees things a bit different.

Yes, the god of the Muslims is the same God as the God of the Jews and the God of Catholics, etc. Do not confuse them using the Arabic name as it being a different God.. it is the same one. Like Shakespeare wrote…. A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet.

And in fact, many Native Americans also believe in a Great Spirit as well.

However, you can not lump the Greek equivalent into the mix, sorry. And that is because they believe in MULTIPLE Gods. That is what sets the single deity apart from the other religions involving many Gods.

This has degraded into an argument about what people CALL something, not what that something IS. And that is unfortunate.

This all came about by someone who does not believe in ANY God or higher power. And they love nothing more than to see those that DO argue among themselves debating the finer points of each person’s beliefs or what they CALL their Higher Power. It somehow makes them think it proves that there is none.

I would rather live my life GOOD, and the best I can, and be wrong about there being a God, than to live it poorly and be wrong. I win either way! Can the same be said for the alternative?

[wyn1370]

if you two keep arguing this way you are going to get the thread closed. The discussion is about the PoA.
There are many different statements in this post that I would love to debate, but that type of discussion is not allowed on AO for obvious reasons. So keep it on the subject.

[MicrOMag]

Originally posted by obsolete898
Ignorant means I would know nothing about the topic. Having gone to Catholic schools my whole life and taking many theology classes, I would have to say that i would know what I was talking about.


You obviously don't know what you're talking about because you still are too ignorant to accept the TRUE connotation of what god means.

[MicrOMag]

Originally posted by obsolete898


Really, does it, thanks for pointing that out.:rolleyes: I know that, but do you hear american muslims praying to GOD, no they pray to ALLAH. Because that is the word they have for thier god. You obviously are missing the point of what I am saying.

Here I'll clear this up. Muslims use the word Allah as a name for thier god. I do not mean that Allah is some other guy roaming around. So my conclusion is if you hear certain terms MOST people automatically think of certain things.

Allah-Muslim
Yaweh-Judaism
Zeus-Greek Mythos
*G*od-Christian religions.

Like I said before I do know a thing or two about modern religions, please don't tell me I have no clue.


Also if Allah is the same god as the Christian God then were's the referance's to jesus and the holy spirit in the muslim religion. Oh, there isn't so it can't be the same god, cause (I think protestant is differant) in Catholasism a God, Jesus, the holy spirit are one (trinity).

You're wrong. I agree with what shartley and the other guys just posted. You aren't grasping the concept that the word God does not just apply to catholics. That is being ignorant.

Back to the discussion, no matter what religion you believe in, if you live in this country you should pledge your allegance to it. End of story.

[AngelBoy]

I know I'm late coming into this so I'm gonna say some stuff about points made on the first page too.

About prayer in schools: Silent prayer is still prayer. Nobody (including the teacher) would have to stand up and pray out loud. If there are people that dont believe in God(no matter how they spell it) then they could just simply be quiet and wish and hope for things.

Alla, God, and all those other names are just G-o-d in other languages. Do Muslims believe that if they call Alla "God" that it won't mean the same thing?(That really is a question, I want to know).

Is it really that big of a deal to say "under God"? If you are Muslim, Jewish, Catholic, Christian, or anything else that believes in "God" then they can just mean it in whatever way they believe. As for the pmes that don't believe in anyone or anything, does it really bother or hurt you to say "under God"? If it does then shouldn't it bother you to say "Oh God!", "God D(figure it out)", or "Thank God"?

[Kaiser Bob]

As ive said before, 'God' does indeed imply monotheism and therefore excludes polytheists and those that believe there is no God. These people dont have to say the PoA, correct. But then you are saying they cant affirm their government/nation unless they state a differing religous belief. That is wrong, that is why the establishment clause is there and that is why it is technically unconstitutional.

[obsolete898]

You aren't grasping the concept that the word God does not just apply to catholics

You're not grasping what I am saying. I never said it only applied to catholics, and if you capitalize the G then yes it is the god of christians. Maybe I'm saying this in the wrong way. This whole thing is about perseption and the conotation that a word has. When you say Allah you automatically think Muslim, not The arabic word for god. Even when speaking english Allah is still used.

I'm arguing this point from a purly secular point of view, my beliefs have no play in this. I belive that there is only one god by what ever name. But from a worldly view, if one religion states that they don't believe in this "god" in the same way as another religion, then it now becomes a differant god. This is in a purely semantical form. If Jews do not belive that Jesus is the son of god and is part of the trinity, then in a purley analitical and semantic form it is a diferant god. Now yes I do believe it is one God, but in an argument of dogmatictic law it would be differant.

Now here is the basis of what I am trying to argue. The "Under god" does not have a place in the PoA. For the reason that people should not have to proclaim thier allegiance to thier country under a diety they have no belief in. That's it that's all I'm saying. Yes I do think we should pledge our allegiance, yes I belive in being grateful to this country. I think I know about being grateful, if you missed it I'm in the USAF.

[FatMan]

Yeah, get one of these religious/political discussion going and ALL kinds of BS comes out:



Catholics believe in the Holy Trinity and also many other things that actually go AGAINST base core Christianity.. such as praying to Mother Mary, using Priests to ?talk? to God and be forgiven, etc.


yer confused, dude!

Anyway, my take on this is pretty much the same as my take on the whole thing with that guy with the cigar - who was that - oh yeah, Clinton - anyway, why the hell are our courts and government officials wasting time with stupid petty *bovine scatological referrance* like this when there are serious issues that need to be addressed?

Let's face it, the pledge was instituted in recent years due to a fear of anti-Americanism, the "under God" was added later during a period of civil unrest when being atheist was associated with being a "commie". "In God We Trust" was added to currency many years after the start of our country. The founding Fathers weren't highly religeous, they were businessmen who faced financial ruin if they didn't find a way to create a government that worked but didn't offend the fiercely independent American populace.

Realistically, the references to God on currency and in the PoA should be removed. Realistically, if they aren't, who gives a rats hiney? If you are a true Atheist, why do you care what the other children say in school? What do you care if a prayer is said before a ball game? You don't. Not unless you are working for some press attention.

Realistically the who PoA could go away and that wouldn't matter too much either. If you are true to your country, you don't need a pledge to prove it - and if you are not, saying a the pledge means nothing. They are words, words for a fearful people who are trying to prevent anyone with a view different from their own to gain any sort of position over them.

You may or may not have a variety of opinions about what I just said, but I tell you this: I love my country, and I never have and never will be untrue to it AND I love my God with all my heart, all my mind, and all my soul. Now you can stand there and tell me I'm wrong until you are blue in the face, but it doesn't change the one inescapable conclustion:

This whole discussion is rediculous!

FatMan

Sorry Army, I know it is no excuse, I just got riled up. I'll be extra good for a while, OK?

Further Deponent Sayeth Not!

FatMan

[obsolete898]

FatMan hath spoketh, and it is good. Fatman you are completely correct.

[Kaiser Bob]

This is an excerpt from the Everson v. Board of Ed. case in 1947 where the Supreme Court first gave a definition to the Establishment clause:

"Neither a state nor the federal government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force. . . a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will, or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion."

Now its not so much that the gov't is forcing anyone to say the PoA now, but the fact that that you have to subscribe to a belief in order to say a pledge of allegiance (integrating chruch and state). Especially when it comes to schools (impressionable minds), the Supreme Court has gone to great lengths to ensure the gov't does not inadvertantly enstill any type of religious belief, as it is specifically not the gov't responsibility to do so.

[MicrOMag]

Originally posted by FatMan
Yeah, get one of these religious/political discussion going and ALL kinds of BS comes out:



yer confused, dude!

Anyway, my take on this is pretty much the same as my take on the whole thing with that guy with the cigar - who was that - oh yeah, Clinton - anyway, why the hell are our courts and government officials wasting time with stupid petty *bovine scatological referrance* like this when there are serious issues that need to be addressed?

Let's face it, the pledge was instituted in recent years due to a fear of anti-Americanism, the "under God" was added later during a period of civil unrest when being atheist was associated with being a "commie". "In God We Trust" was added to currency many years after the start of our country. The founding Fathers weren't highly religeous, they were businessmen who faced financial ruin if they didn't find a way to create a government that worked but didn't offend the fiercely independent American populace.

Realistically, the references to God on currency and in the PoA should be removed. Realistically, if they aren't, who gives a rats hiney? If you are a true Atheist, why do you care what the other children say in school? What do you care if a prayer is said before a ball game? You don't. Not unless you are working for some press attention.

Realistically the who PoA could go away and that wouldn't matter too much either. If you are true to your country, you don't need a pledge to prove it - and if you are not, saying a the pledge means nothing. They are words, words for a fearful people who are trying to prevent anyone with a view different from their own to gain any sort of position over them.

You may or may not have a variety of opinions about what I just said, but I tell you this: I love my country, and I never have and never will be untrue to it AND I love my God with all my heart, all my mind, and all my soul. Now you can stand there and tell me I'm wrong until you are blue in the face, but it doesn't change the one inescapable conclustion:

This whole discussion is rediculous!

FatMan

Sorry Army, I know it is no excuse, I just got riled up. I'll be extra good for a while, OK?

Further Deponent Sayeth Not!

FatMan


You missed the point, I'm not religious, I could care less about 'under god', I was just correcting someone who was clearly wrong about the connotation of god. My beef is with the fact that now the pledge of allegenance is not to be said at all. Friggin ridiculous.

[obsolete898]

I was just correcting someone who was clearly wrong about the connotation of god

I guess you corrected me:rolleyes:. Personally I don't think that you insulting me and calling me ignorant corrected much of anything.

[ThePatriot]

Well, look at it this way, lets assume, you were a father, and had 2 sons in school. You were both Catholic(you and your wife) and didnt want to give them a very formal Catholic school education, how would you feel if they taught something contradictory to your religion? For instance, the teaching of evolution, how many problems has that caused in the country? A lot..

It is the same thing in work here, a parent didnt want their child to believe something, if one says under god, and so does every other person in school, and around them, they will develop the idea there is a god. Now if this is bad or not, is up to the people looking at it. However the father just didnt want his child to grow up thinking something that went against his beliefs, any of you would have felt the same way.

[davidb]

(Deity of your choice) forbid that he should just talk to his daughter and teach her his beliefs instead of filing a lawsuit. Oh well, it's the American Way. :rolleyes:

[Kaiser Bob]

Its easier if they just take it out, it wont harm anyone if those two words werent there and it worked fine till 1954.

[ThePatriot]

Well, if its so harmless, how come we cant just take it out? You religious people are all saying, why do you care? Cant you just say "under god?" Well, cant you just not hear it?

[AngelBoy]

Does it really matter either way. The guy could have just tried to teach his daughter what he believed instead of going through all the trouble of trying to have it removed. He just wants some fame. Wouldn't it just be easier to leave it in instead of going through and changing it? How would you really get EVERYBODY to know that it changed? ThePatriot, youre right, it really wouldn't be very bad to take it out, but like I said before its just easier to leave it in.

Think about if they did take it out. You go to a football game, everybody stands for the PoA. They get to that part and half of the people don't know that its taken out. So half the stadium says it and the other half doesn't. Everybody gets off-beat, makes it sound real wierd. Makes it sound disrespectful. Then everybody gets mad at each other for either leaving that part out or saying it when ur not suppossed to. Everybody starts fighting. It keeps getting more violent. People start killin each other. The headline the next day reads: "The Pledge of Alliegence killed 200 people yesterday at a football game".

Sorry, I just had to throw somethin like that in. And before you ask, no, I really don't think that would happen.

[Havoc_online]

how will it look for the politican who trys to remove "under god" and "in god we trust" from everything when 95% of the country(therefore the voters) believe in "God". It will never be removed for the simple true that our country was founded on it's belief and that too many ppl still feel the same way. The only thing that I think would ever happen in an attempt to plz everyone is that someone move to get it officially announced that you may enter your own belief if it's "god" or not in any saying, or simply announce that "god" does not have to mean the father of Jesus, or so on and so forth but is the higher being of the person. Anyone who doesnt believe in "god" should'nt care.

[wyn1370]

Like stated before. It was added in, it can be taken out. I agree it would be a pain to take out. But only because so many people are against it being removed. And why are they against it, not because of how difficult it would be to change everything, but because they want it in there.
Added on: I don't believe in any said god. And true I wouldn't care. But since so many people are saying it belongs in there, it has gotten my attention. I do not believe we are one nation under god. So why don't I start adding in my own little edits to the PoA and make it better suit my own beliefs. And anyone who doesn't believe it can just not say that part.

[irbodden]

Originally posted by ThePatriot
Well, look at it this way, lets assume, you were a father, and had 2 sons in school. You were both Catholic(you and your wife) and didnt want to give them a very formal Catholic school education, how would you feel if they taught something contradictory to your religion? For instance, the teaching of evolution, how many problems has that caused in the country? A lot..

Yes, evoultion is a fact, but you would have to have very little faith to be turned away by evoultion. When studying evoultion, you should grow a DEEPER faith by learning the intricacy of god's most amazing creatures. There is NO way that a random big bang created life as we know it. My very own biology teacher got up on a soapbox last year and explained how many consider it a controversial subject [evoultion] however he as a science grad student and teacher for 20 years was NEVER turned away from god because of "Darwin". Patriot, if you turned away from God because of what you were told in your Freshman class as you scratched the surface of evoultion and the ideas of Darwin, I think you should reevaulate your ideas. Your just trying to be a rebel though I bet.. LOL


If you let the firstbook of the old testament, which belongs to the Hebrews- throw you away from God because of some science unit you studied for two weeks.. I feel sorry for you..

[ThePatriot]

Originally posted by irbodden
There is NO way that a random big bang created life as we know it.

Please do not be ignorant, you have no idea whether or not the big bang caused life as we know it. Also, i was giving an example, i never stated biology class changed my life and made me not believe in god. I was never brought up to believe in any of that, or go to church or anything like that.

I also find it extremely odd how a christian(im assuming) or any religious person for that manner, can believe in evolution. Unless i am VERY mistaken, christians believe the earth was formed roughly 6000 years ago, this goes against everything evolution teaches. Now, please, i didnt tell you, you were wrong with your beliefs, please do not tell me i am wrong with mine regarding the Big Bang.

And for the record, i didnt even study evolution in biology, because we all knew what it was. In NY it was on the regents exam, but everyone knew what it was so we reviewed genetics. Oh, and if evolution is a fact, and you religious members know that, then how come it has had so many issues in the southern states? Dont all you christians believe the same thing? It is the same religion isnt it? I know there are little differences, however i dont think there could be as big a difference as what created the human race.

I also do not like what evolution has become recently. From what i have heard, etc.. Evolution used to be despised by christians and catholics, however they started seeing more and more people believing in it, because it makes sense(as does religion to those who follow it.) They started saying evolution was god's way of explaining life..... About 1 year ago i didnt know 1 person who was religious and believed in evolution, now everyone i know believes in it.

Your teacher by telling you it has never turned him away from god was probably true, however you being in Illinois, and that being near the area where all the evolution debates are ioccuring, i am sure he was trying to reinforce religion. It is a fact the south/midwest s very religious, thats all, where i came from the area wasnt religious at all, its just a location thing. I can vouch for this in Florida, everyone is religious down here...

Fact of the matter is, we will never know, ever. The only people who will know if they were right are the religious people. If indeed you do go to Heaven, you can think to yourself, yep i was right this entire time. However if we do die, and thats it, only death, you will not be conscious or anything and never be able to think, wow, i was right.

Now, i believe most of the people here know what will, and what will not get this thread closed, it is very interesting so far. Please do not get it closed, i think talking about one's beliefs and comparing are fine, have to ask a mod. As long as you do not insult another's religion, or say they are dead wrong, it should be ok.

[MagMan5446]

Originally posted by AngelBoy

About prayer in schools: Silent prayer is still prayer. Nobody (including the teacher) would have to stand up and pray out loud. If there are people that dont believe in God(no matter how they spell it) then they could just simply be quiet and wish and hope for things.





Why do that? What good has EVER come from wishing and hoping? Or even praying? Never did a damn thing for me. But that doesn't mean I don't believe in a God.

God is who you believe he is. God can be Allah, Yaeyew, or whatever the hell you want to say he is. We know nothing more about "God" than that.

Correct me if I'm wrong. (or if you think I'm wrong)

[AngelBoy]

It was just a way to get prayer back in schools since so many people want it back, and I just think that would be a fine way to do it. I was just saying that the people that don't believe in anything can think or stare or whatever they choose. I don't think that it is very necissary(sp?) but if so many people want it back then what damage would it cause? But then again, the people that want it back in schools can just pray by thereselves or have prayer meeting. As for good things coming from praying, strange things happen and some people believe that it is from praying while others believe it is just natural.

[obsolete898]

Back to the evolution topic. Catholics can belive in evolution and still be true to thier religion. This because they have a contextual interpitation of the bible where as most (I pretty sure all) protestant religions have a literal interpitation of the bible.

That was one of Martin Luthers big complants with the Catholic church and why he left and subsequently started protestantism. He felt the bible was not important enough in Catholisism, and it needed to be the base of the religion. That and alot of other things is why he broke off.

[Kaiser Bob]

Originally posted by Havoc_online
how will it look for the politican who trys to remove "under god" and "in god we trust" from everything when 95% of the country(therefore the voters) believe in "God". It will never be removed for the simple true that our country was founded on it's belief and that too many ppl still feel the same way. The only thing that I think would ever happen in an attempt to plz everyone is that someone move to get it officially announced that you may enter your own belief if it's "god" or not in any saying, or simply announce that "god" does not have to mean the father of Jesus, or so on and so forth but is the higher being of the person. Anyone who doesnt believe in "god" should'nt care.

Ok, yes at the moment it seems the majority support having those little words in there, but in a situation like this it cannot be majority rules. The fact is the majority can be aligned towards things that are wrong (slavery, racial discrimination/segregation) so in a case like this you have to look at the constitutional aspect, not just what most people want.

[AngelBoy]

Does saying "under God" really hurt anyone?

[beam]

**Takes a deep breath....must avoid a ban**

Ok. The pledge. One nation under God.
I'm not going to convince anyone one way or the other. I am just dissappointed in all the "theory/opinion slinging" that has been going on in this thread and claimed as fact.

Prayer in school. EVIDENCE shows the affects of removing it. Unless there are other societal issues that we can blame, that seems like a pretty easy one too.

Evolution. Aahhh the THEORY THEORY THEORY THEORY where scientist made monkeys of themselves. To state that Evolution is a fact is like me stating with total certainty that a T-Rex is yellow and blue. How do you know? Did you ever see one ALIVE?

The one thing that gives me goosebumps is that very recently (last couple of decades), scientist are really starting to admit the faults in Evo. THEORY. Too many holes, too many things unexplained. New terms that deal with origins are: INTELLIGENT Design, specified complexity, etc. So, when some teenage kid tries to tell me that evolution is fact....it's easy for me to dismiss it. Mainstream science/academia begs to differ.

[Kaiser Bob]

Adaptation and need-based mutation has been documented so you cant just say evolution is bunk and you cant prove it. Can you prove we were definitely apes? No, but that dosent mean the other instances of evolution that we can see can be dismissed.

[obsolete898]

Prayer in school. EVIDENCE shows the affects of removing it. Unless there are other societal issues that we can blame, that seems like a pretty easy one too.

There are many other societal issues that lead to our current state. Not just prayer in school. The main three reasons are the desensitization(sp) of children by the media, TV, and movies. Second is the fact that parents are taking less and less responsibility for thier actions and the actions of thier children. The last is an efffect of the other 2 but it is a snow ball effect. It is that kids are now having kids.

This is a visious circle, the only end to this is good parenting. Don't plop your kids in front of the tube for 4 hours, do something with them. Monitor the amount of violence and sex they are exposed to. Be responsible for the life you created. BE A GOOD PARENT (have any questions just ask Army or Shartly)

[ThePatriot]

Actually, never did I state evolution is at all fact, it is a theory, however microevolution has been documented and observed in today's society. An instance of this is the Peppered Moth in I believe it was England. Anyway, it has been proven that our DNA is I believe, might be mistaken 96% identical to a chimpanzee. We didnt descent from apes, chimps rather.

*Quote from Beam*
The one thing that gives me goosebumps is that very recently (last couple of decades), scientist are really starting to admit the faults in Evo. THEORY. Too many holes, too many things unexplained
*End Quote*

Well, too many things unexplained? Sounds a lot like you are implying it is faith based, which is the same as religion. So how can you say one faith based thing is more true than a different faith based thing is beyond me.

*Quote from Beam*
Evolution. Aahhh the THEORY THEORY THEORY THEORY where scientist made monkeys of themselves.
*End Quote*

Well, actually scientists didnt make monkeys out of themselves, monkeys made themselves into scientists. I dont see how you Beam, have the right to determine what is right, and what isnt. Am I the only one who realizes that some of the religious members posting here claim they are all right. Never once have i said, i am right. You know evolution could be totally wrong, however I find it unlikely, emphasis on I. I just think the religious people need to stop being so ignorant, this might seem like an insult, but i am going to give an analogy to try and explain this.

Let us say there is a question at hand. A white male and an African American Male are debating over what the answer is. Now if the white male were to say, i am right, he cannot be right because he is black and they are never right. That would be considered extremely ignorant wouldnt it, aside from racist of course. How is it any different when religious people refuse to admit they could be the least bit mistaken and look down upon people who do not believe what they believe. I respect other people's religions/beliefs, i admit, i could be wrong, i might even be wrong. I believe because of this it allows for a better position to analyze situations. Whereas some religious individuals, cannot look at the whole because they have a deterrant in their way(their religious beliefs, preventing them from saying, wow, this makes sense they could be right.) I brought race into this because i am trying to use race as "religious belief."

I hope no one takes this as an insult, because i havent really intentionally flamed anyone. I wasnt referring to all religious people, i was merely saying those who are ignorant are hard to deal with. I am trying not to get this thread closed, and i think so far, personally I have done a good job for me, im always getting threads closed.

And even though i am only 16, i did not copy and paste that, i wrote it, just in the event someone thinks i copy and pasted it :)

[obsolete898]

Whereas the religion individual, cannot look at the whole because they have a deterrant in their way(their religious beliefs, preventing them from saying, wow, this makes sense they could be right.)

I wouldn't go that far. I personally don't let my beliefs come into play discussions. Also alot of scientists have thier religious beliefs and they don't let it come into play.


But yes to many people do that.

[ThePatriot]

Yes, i am sorry once again, i keep forgetting to add "some." Making a stereotypical comment like that is ignorant on my half, let me fix it.

*edit* Fixed

[AngelBoy]

Originally posted by ThePatriot
Let us say there is a question at hand. A white male and an African American Male are debating over what the answer is. Now if the white male were to say, i am right, he cannot be right because he is black and they are never right. That would be considered extremely ignorant wouldnt it, aside from racist of course. How is it any different when religious people refuse to admit they could be the least bit mistaken and look down upon people who do not believe what they believe. I respect other people's religions/beliefs, i admit, i could be wrong, i might even be wrong. I believe because of this it allows for a better position to analyze situations. Whereas the religion individual, cannot look at the whole because they have a deterrant in their way(their religious beliefs, preventing them from saying, wow, this makes sense they could be right.) I brought race into this because i am trying to use race as "religious belief."

I hope no one takes this as an insult, because i havent really intentionally flamed anyone. I wasnt referring to all religious people, i was merely saying those who are ignorant are hard to deal with. I am trying not to get this thread closed, and i think so far, personally I have done a good job for me, im always getting threads closed.

Thats because most religious people are trying to stand up for what they believe in, and a lot of times they do take it too far. They stay close-minded because they think that if they think "ya know, he could be right" that they are doubting everything they have based their life on. And a lot of people believe that if they start doubting, they were never really true Christians and that they are going to Hell. So I do agree with you, but that is still not saying that I am going to back down from what I have said. I actually had a big paragraph typed out on one of my posts about how I could be wrong, but I went back and deleted it because I thoguht it would be too off-topic(which this thread is now).

[obsolete898]

It's not off topic it has just evolved.;)



Sorry I couldn't help myself

[beam]

Originally posted by obsolete898


...Not just prayer in school. The main three reasons are the desensitization(sp) of children by the media, TV, and movies

Aahhh but are these causes or symptoms? TV, movies, media were pretty decent at the time prayer was removed, SINCE then is when they have gone down hill. :)


Originally posted by obsolete898
This is a visious circle, the only end to this is good parenting. Don't plop your kids in front of the tube for 4 hours, do something with them. Monitor the amount of violence and sex they are exposed to. Be responsible for the life you created. BE A GOOD PARENT (have any questions just ask Army or Shartly)

AMEN! I completely agree with that! I am a father of 4...7years, 5, 3, 9mos(born 9/11/2001 of all days)

Patriot: You and I both know that I can never persuade/convince you of my BELIEFS. However, I have EXPERIENCED a relationship with the very one who created all things. So to me, it requires very little faith believ He intelligently design this cosmic ball of matter we call home. Not to mention, the One who created all things did pay us a little visit here about 2000 years ago. Both secular/non-secular historical accounts can attest to that. But as Obsolete898 points out, this IS a vicious cycle. And it is ultimately up to each one of us to decide what we believe and accept the consequences/blessings/whatever of that decision.

peace.

[AngelBoy]

Now, back to the topic of this thread:

Is the PoA unconstitutional? It is not any more than the Constution itself is. And no, that doesn't make it fair. I really don't see why saying "under God" is such a big deal, but since it is to someone else I'll try to talk about this. Nobody is really forcing anyone to believe in any certain way. They are not forcing anyone to say "under God". So is it really against the Constitution? No.

But it is unfair to put anything pertaining to any certain group into a national pledge. Its not a big crime or anything, its just not completely 100% fair. And something as important as the PoA or the DoI needs to be as close to 100% fair as it can be. So if you want to be incredibly technical about it, if you change the PoA, you should change the Constitution also.


The guy with the daughter is going to have to grow up and realize that when his daughter gets mature she will probably want to look into new things, religion being one of them. Hearing the words "under God" will really have no big effect on her or anyone else. If it is going to actually change something, then it is just going to prepare her for the constant nagging of all Christians that she is friends with to go to church, camp, Sunday school, etc with them. The guy was wrong IMO.

I'm trying to look at this in an athiest point of view so I dont get "ignorant" as ThePatriot pointed out. Now, lets to to STAY ON TOPIC.

[FatMan]

Originally posted by beam
I am just dissappointed in all the "theory/opinion slinging" that has been going on in this thread and claimed as fact.

Prayer in school. EVIDENCE shows the affects of removing it.


Ahh, what I most dislike about pseudo-science like this is when the professor of the said bovine dung (is that OK Army?) prefaces his rant with a statement about theory versus fact.



To state that Evolution is a fact is like me stating with total certainty that a T-Rex is yellow and blue. How do you know? Did you ever see one ALIVE?


OK, so did you ever see Jesus Alive? Did you ever see the Red Sea part? No. This is sillyness. Get real. There are plenty of examples of establishing fact without direct observation. You are going on like the bone-head that spilled some drivel about his chemistry class and the big-bang theory. (you aren't that guy, are you ... checking to see ... oh, you are, now I get it).



The one thing that gives me goosebumps is that very recently (last couple of decades), scientist are really starting to admit the faults in Evo. THEORY. Too many holes, too many things unexplained. New terms that deal with origins are: INTELLIGENT Design, specified complexity, etc. So, when some teenage kid tries to tell me that evolution is fact....it's easy for me to dismiss it. Mainstream science/academia begs to differ.


Dude, it is so obvious that you are not in touch with "mainstream" science that it hurts from laughing so much! Sure there have been all sorts of revelations about errors in the early assumtions about evolution. Not errors that suggest evolution is dead totally wrong, but errors that call into question HOW and WHY and WHEN evolution happens and what it means to us. In fact, I tend to find that the research you have mentioned tends to suggest (suggest, mind you, it TOO is theory) that BOTH God and evolution are working together. Or that God is working THROUGH evolution (if you prefer) rather than proving evolution wrong.

You may be king of the chat-room science debate but you fall WAY short of reality if all you can do is spout someone else's Pseudo-science babble. This track has gone off the topic of the PoA and into religion and OUGHT TO BE CLOSED! These guys are just bashing each other without taking the time actually understand what each other are saying!

Flame war, time to put it out!

FatMan

(oh, and don't bother posting to say I myself am flaming this guy - you are darn right I'm flaming him! What does he expect if he covers himself with cyber gasoline!)

[obsolete898]

But if it said "under no God" it would be considered wrong by the standards of a religious person. So why is he wrong if he feels that "under God" is wrong by his standards?

[ThePatriot]

I think the dude just wanted attention, i mean honestly, in all reality it wont affect her whatsoever. However, it is one of those things like the evolution in the classroom trials in the south. Like previously stated, no one will change their faith based on a 2 week unit, well most will not. However, it still went to trial, i guess you just have to fight about everything until something is determined. This will probably not cause any change because all of the government is very religious, John Ashcroft tries to make his decisions off his religion...and yes i support republicans, so im not just bashing him because im a democrat, im not. All it takes is 1 moron and a lawyer to change a nation...

For the record Fatman, please dont tell them to close this thread, i am not bashing him at all. I intentionally held back from bashing him JUST to keep this thread alive. I dont feel the least bit insulted so he wasnt bashing me. I am used to people even worse than him, a lot worse, claiming proof for god and creation is the bible. I mean, it doesnt get much worse than that...

[AngelBoy]

Originally posted by obsolete898
But if it said "under no God" it would be considered wrong by the standards of a religious person. So why is he wrong if he feels that "under God" is wrong by his standards?

Actually, saying "under no God" would actually clear up all of this. That would be saying that the government chooses no sides and that they will run this country as fair as possible no matter what class/religion/race/diety/whatever it will effect. So saying that would actually seperate church and government. You would actually have a better argument in changing it to that than u would to just take it out. Just my own opinion on that though.

[cphilip]

Heh...wonder why we had a rule against not discussing religon and politics here?

Hmmmmm I wonder....

Ok lets end this now and get back to some more important things like paintball and why guys like Twins....:D