Civil War/ Confederate Flag Continuation

[ShooterJM]

Interesting discussion started in another thread, created this to keep original thread on topic.

[Army]

Tread VERY lightly on this one. I will close and delete it at the first hint of impropriety. Army

[MagMan5446]

Why keep it flying? It's represents a fallen era. No point in keeping that up.

[Army]

The Rebel battle flag still represents American soldiers.

The two sides, of course, had their economic and social differences, but never did anyone renounce being an American. The southern states hold pride deeply, and the flag is a symbol of the pride of doing what they considered necessary.

It is not a representation of the times, but one of honor for those who fought for what was believed to be right.

[TransMan]

Yes a Agree with ARMY living in A Southern state and one that was on the border i had a lot of relatives there were on dif sides during the Cival War and i have respect for both and i believe that Flying the Flag out of Respect for those who fought and died is not wrong in anyway.
That was a big sentence :D

[wyn1370]

I have no problem when people use the flag for the reasons stated above. But here in the north the flag is used by KKK and other racist groups as an insult to minorities. That is why many people have issues when they see one. It is a great symbol that has been tarnished by missuse.

[TransMan]

Yes i agree with Wyn also The Flag should be Flown out of respect for the Soilders not to make a political or Racial statement when someone uses the Flag in that way it is disrespectful to the Soilders and the minorities that are being persecuted by it.

[-Jôker-]

Originally posted by wyn1370
I have no problem when people use the flag for the reasons stated above. But here in the north the flag is used by KKK and other racist groups as an insult to minorities. That is why many people have issues when they see one. It is a great symbol that has been tarnished by missuse.

ok im from the south and maybe i can speak for us southerners ;)

ok here it goes..... the CONFEDERATE flag (not rebel) stands for our heritage (not hate) even though some evil racist parties (like the KKK) use it to put down and disgrace some groups of people while it is true the KKK formed in the south (Tennesee where i was born) and is really a dead org. imo and should have its plug pulled by the government as should the black panthers ('racism is scism on a serious tip
you don't belive me then I go on bust your lip' ok i had to)
so dont sonfuse HERITAGE with HATE there are many misconceptions with the 'Civil War' on both sides but lets not gwet into that lets just live and let live and move on its really childish to try and ban a flag because people misunderstand it and its meanings...

http://members.tripod.com/~txscv/csa.htm <-- that should stop some confusion of what the flags are

Dixie
I wish I was in the land of cotton,
old times there are not forgotten,
Look away, look away, look away, Dixie land.
In Dixie land where I was born in, early on a frosty mornin',
Look away, look away, look away, Dixie land.
Chorus:
Then I wish I was in Dixie, hooray! Hooray!
In Dixie land I'll take my stand, to live and die in Dixie,
Away, away, away down south in Dixie,
Away, away, away down south in Dixie.

Old Missus marry Will de Weaber, Will-yum was a gay deceaber,
Look away, look away, look away, Dixie land.
But when he put his arm around her,
smiled as fierce as a forty pounder.
Look away, look away, look away, Dixie land. (Chorus)

Dars buckwheat cakes an' ingen batter, makes you fat or a little fatter,
Look away, look away, look away, Dixie land.
Den hoe it down and scratch your grabble to Dixie's land
I'm bound to travel,
Look away, look away, look away Dixie land. (Chorus)

[wyn1370]

I'm not saying ban the thing. Heck no. But what you guys from the south don't see very much is the stupid northerners that have never even been across the mason/dixie line in their lives that fly the flag fanatically. That's what most people get upset about.

[-Jôker-]

well what i have to say about that wyn is truthfully they have no right to fly the flag they know so little about for example how would you feel if some guy who wasnt a part of your team (in any sport doesnt matter) wore your uniform but acted like a moron in it and gave yall a bad name.. id say he shoudnt have the right to wear it if he isnt a part of it and CERTAINLY if he gave the team a bad image just my opnion hope it doesnt offend anybody that i think people shoudnt have the right to fly a flag like that :rolleyes:

[wyn1370]

my point exactly. That's why I brought it up. I now know why decent southerners fly the flag proudly and you now know why sometimes northerners take offense to it. Now if everyone could see this it wouldn't be such a big deal. Except for those idiots that don't deserve to fly it.

[TransMan]

Yes I agree with Joker and yn the peopel that have not lived in the South and have not had any relitives that have lived in the south do not deserve to be able to Fly the flag. Most importantly those who give it a bad reputation those people are idiots.

[-Jôker-]

http://www.usflag.org/confederate.stars.and.bars.html

found this there

It is necessary to disclaim any connection of these flags to neo-nazis, red-necks, skin-heads and the like. These groups have adopted this flag and desecrated it by their acts. They have no right to use this flag - it is a flag of honor, designed by the confederacy as a banner representing state's rights and still revered by the South. In fact, under attack, it still flies over the South Carolina capitol building. The South denies any relation to these hate groups and denies them the right to use the flags of the confederacy for any purpose. The crimes committed by these groups under the stolen banner of the conderacy only exacerbate the lies which link the seccesion to slavery interests when, from a Southerner's view, the cause was state's rights.

Note contributed by BJ Meksikatsi.

[ShooterJM]

Where to start?

Well I was born and lived in Michigan and Connecticut for about 14 years. Then I bounced between Colorado and Missouri during school. Gave me a pretty good glimpse of both cultures I think. I understand the pride inherent in the heritage of the flag. I imagine it's similar to seeing your family's coat of arms or viking ancestory (if applicable). I also understand that the flag symbolizes two distinct things to different people. I guess my feeling is that people have the right to proclaim their heritage.

[Kaiser Bob]

Indeed the main issue that started the Civil War was state's rights and the fear of despotism from the federal government. The south felt that adopting the Constitution over the Articles of Confederation was a very bad idea and that the nation should go back to the system it was founded upon... a confederacy. However slavery was a key part of the states rights issue, as the south felt that abolishing slavery would ruin the southern economy, as it was primarily agrarian and that the north was being callous only because industry ran the north and the loss of slavery wouldent have much of an impact. So yes the south was fighting for slavery in the civil war.

PS- The purpose of my post was that many try to seperate slavery from the civil war only noting states' rights, however that way of being PC has led to people being misinformed.

[AcemanPB]

i was going to right a long post about how i feel on this topic put i think joker covered it all

the Confederate flag (not rebel) is a part of this nations history. Just because it wasn't during the brightest times of american history doesn't mean it should be forgoten.

I will say no more and will tread lightly on this topic put i do feel very strong about this issue

[RT_Luver]

Originally posted by Army
The Rebel battle flag still represents American soldiers.

The two sides, of course, had their economic and social differences, but never did anyone renounce being an American. The southern states hold pride deeply, and the flag is a symbol of the pride of doing what they considered necessary.

It is not a representation of the times, but one of honor for those who fought for what was believed to be right.

Thats 100% correct. I'm a southern and I hold nothing for slaves and in fact, 'm imbarrassed that we had them, but its a pride thing. We hold it in our hearts. keep it flyin

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Kaiser Bob
However slavery was a key part of the states rights issue, as the south felt that abolishing slavery would ruin the southern economy, as it was primarily agrarian and that the north was being callous only because industry ran the north and the loss of slavery wouldent have much of an impact. So yes the south was fighting for slavery in the civil war.

Ok so I'm really bad with dates so please check all of these. We all know the emancipation proclamation only applied to the seceding states, but when did it happen? For some reason I was thinking that President Lincoln signed it January 1, 1863 and that the slave states that remained with the Union were not affected until the 13th amendmant in 1865. Since the war started in 1861 and ended in 1865 I figured slavery wasn't a real issue. Especially since northern slaves weren't freed until 1865. But, like I said, I'm not so good with dates in general and civil war stuff in particular.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by -Jôker-
[url] In fact, under attack, it still flies over the South Carolina capitol building.

NO! It does not! your info is outdated.

And in fact it never flew over the Capitiol during the civil war nor was used by any SC regiment. It never flew there until 1964 when it was palced there by an act of our legislature. It was supposed to be placed up there for one year in celebration and morning of the centenial of the civil war. However it was left in defiance of civil rights movement and intergration. It was recently removed. SO there is another example of people using it to represent the wrong thing. Bigots and small minded folks have perverted it as a symbol it was not intended to represtent. That is unfortunate but a fact.

It does still exist incorporated into the body of the State flag of Alabama a did in Georgia's but i believed Ga. recently removed it.

[cphilip]

Well there were antislavery acts that proceeded the emancipation act that were indeed contributory so do not try and use that one as an argument that it was late in the war. Slavery was abolished in all the new territories outside the 13 colonies before that much to the dismay of the slave holding states and contributed to the hostilities which caused the war. Slavery issues were, among many other things, a real cause and issue of the American civil war from the begining. Read your history in entirety not selectively.

[Army]

In 1858, Lincoln said that he would not involve the Congress in the issue of slavery, for that was the States function to do as it sees fit. To whit, slavery was NOT true factor in the war, or Emancipation would have been a centerpiece right away.

[-Jôker-]

sorry for it being outdated but it backed what i was saying

[cphilip]

Another thing that is very important: Less than 5 % of southerners owned slaves. Most were sharecroppers and close to slaves themselves in some respects but at least free.

Most of these poor white folks were stripped of rights and propertied what little they had for repriations to blacks and Northern armies as they marched north. They suffered greatly and harbored ill will as there was no effort to assist them and many of them were destitute.

Many Northerners did not want an influx of freed slaves to come there and planed to relocate them to Carribean islands and some of that was done. Haiti is an example. So let's not completely associate racism with southern whites...it existed in all areas reguardless of how you sided in the civil war.

all the issues and reasons were complex and its not easy for anyone to pin it all down in a simple sentence.If they do I would not pay much attention to them...

[Kaiser Bob]

Lincoln first said that in 1858 because at the time Dred Scott v Sanford has just happened and it was clear things were coming to a head, so Lincoln tried an apporach of comprimise to keep the union whole. However, once things had escladed, Lincoln realized there could never be comprimise regarding slavery and made the Emancipation Proclamation.


EDIT- The Dred Scott case was the case where the Supreme Court ruled that a black man had no rights that a white had to respect.... proof that minority rights > majority rule.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Army
In 1858, Lincoln said that he would not involve the Congress in the issue of slavery, for that was the States function to do as it sees fit. To whit, slavery was NOT true factor in the war, or Emancipation would have been a centerpiece right away.

Recheck that...I said new territories had outlawed slavery already. Emancipation was for existing slave holding states. and yes later. But there were indeed antislavery movements adn acts of congress already passed for opening up the new territories that worried southern states and caused friction before that and before lincoln. Lincoln said many things he needed to in order to get elected because of concern for that. His antislavery views were suspect for some time. hence the reason he said that was because these earlier issues indicated there was enough hostility to start a war already. And did.

[cphilip]

Hey you know this has been debated for over 200 years now and no one agree's even now! :D

good stuff though...

[ShooterJM]

Well, assuming you're not referring to the Confiscation Acts, yes there was some state sponsored legislation.
Vermont, which had almost no slaves or African Americans, abolished slavery in 1777. In 1780 Pennsylvania followed suit. During the 1780s Massachusetts courts ruled that the commonwealth's 1780 constitution had, in effect, outlawed the institution. Between 1784 and 1804 the states of Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, and New Jersey all adopted plans for gradual emancipation. The U.S. Constitution set a date of 1808 as the earliest date the African slave trade could be abolished, (the colonization to liberia and hati that cphilip was refering to).

This being said, I retract my last statement. I think abolition of slavery wasn't the main issue at hand until 1863 when the final confiscation act went through.

*Edit* -- I believe the issue of slavery was the choice of battle ground. As I stated above and as Cphilip noted, much legislation was in effect. However, I still believe the root reasons were a concern of the balance of economic power between the industrial north and rural south. As the new land became available after the mexican american war, much was being settled by southerners causing much concern by the north. yadda yadda yadda :D

Interestingly enough on Sept 11, 1861 President Lincoln revoked Gen. Fremont's military proclamation of emancipation in Missouri. He was later relieved of his command and replaced.

Didn't know that, just found it interesting.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by cphilip
Hey you know this has been debated for over 200 years now and no one agree's even now! :D

good stuff though...


Yeah, human motives and conflicts are never as cut and dried as you hope. Although on a side note, I'm sure my views are skewed as I learned more about the Civil War in my economics classes then in my history class!:D

[ThePatriot]

Almost 150 years after the civil war and the Southerners still fight with the Northerners about a flag. The North think it represents slavery, and well nothing will change that, you can tell people that as much as you like, to the average northerner it will mean anti black, and pro slavery, also Hick. In NY people would make fun of other people sporting the Confederate Flag, calling them racist hicks who just hate blacks.

You wouldnt think that after 150 years the North and South would forget about it, but they didnt. I am telling you, where i came from it is assumed that all Southerners hate blacks, my question is, what do you Southerners think us Northerners do that you dont? I am very interested to hear.

[rios_creos]

I understand why the confederate flag could be flown out of pride. but down here in the south about 50% of the time its just racist rednecks. (this is around central florida). and really 90% of the people who claim to fly it outta pride have can not name their relatives that supposedly fought in the war. if your not gonna honor the people why honor what they did? especially since it was bad.

anyways for all you people saying how its pride and whatnot. thats fine. but the same argument could be made by aryan people here as they fly their nazi flags.

my friend (white, blonde, blue eyed, female) once said to me that if all the people down here fly their confederate flags outta of pride, shouldn't she just as easily be able to fly a nazi flag since her great grandfather was a nazi? not that she wants to but its mostly just a load of crap, this whole pride thing. how bout everyone just forgets about it. then their will be no problems.

rios_creos

[obsolete898]

From what I have seen in the military there are alot of people that fly the Confederate flag. These are people I work and converse with. For the most part the people that fly the flag are racist. This is why us yankees(which I'm called by the same people that fly the Confederate flag) see it as a rasicst symbol because alot of the people flying the flag are racist.

Perfect example go over to PBN and read some of RebelTillDeath3's posts and you'll see what I mean.

[tsc]

Well, with PBN you have to expect stupidity.. :)

There is absolutely nothing about the confederate flag that implies whomever flies it is racist. I hate to add to a stereotype, but the redneck racists are often ig'nant too. While they may live in the south, I'd doubt them being able to tell you much about the civil war other than it was "tryin 'ta let DIXIE have er slaves and not let 'ta yanks take us over!!! SOUTHERN PRIDE!!" Etc. ( :p )

As the american flag represents the history of the states, the union jack represents the history of the southern states. While some people may see this as racially motivated, it isn't! That's why there needs to be more people informing the racists who use this flag as a beacon that it has nothing to do with racism or slavery.

[obsolete898]

Well it's all about perception. I know it isn't racialy motavated, but most people think that it is. Just like the Nazi symbol(I'm not even gonna try to spell it) is a Budist symbol meaning welcome(just turned on it's side). You can't use a symbol that charged with emotion and not expect some hoopla.

It's about perception plain and simple. I have a maltese cross tattoed on my neck, and many people have asked about it(thinking I'm a Nazi or a memeber of any other racist group). Now I can tell everyone in the world that it's a germanic symbol for freedom, but people will associate it with what they know of it. That being one of the symbols of the Third Riech.

Now I'm in no way affiliated with any Nazi organization, hell I'm polish that really wouldn't work. I do know that I will catch flac for it but I'm prepared and I know it will happen.

[-Jôker-]

ok i want to start by saying that both sides of my family are from the south so im 99.9% sure i have a ancestor that fought for the south evern thouh i have researched that i have researched the American Revolutionary war and i do have a ancestor that fought in it... and lived in Tennesee and he got a LARGE bit of land for fighting to but thats beside the point :rolleyes:

you cant hide the fact that there are more southern racist people than any other geographic area

im a redkneck,hick,hillbilly etc call me that all you want to that doesnt offend me im PROUD of my heritage so why should me calling a northner a yankee be an insult? take pride in your heritage somtimes its all you have

rios since when is standing up for what you thought was right is BAD? the people of the southern states where being told to stop their way of lifestyle how would you feal if i told you you coudnt make a living anymore how would you feal when you lost a war and everything you had was destroyed

Lincoln could have avoided the war he could have just let the southern states leave the union but he provoked them

this war is never going to stop being argued over because you cant stop people from believing they are right the north thinks they were right the south think they were right now its 2002 and we are arguing over the misrepusentoin (sp?) of the CONFEDERATE (not rebel) battle flag or the navy flag people have no idea what these flags are they are just flying the darn things... a true person that is trying to honor our heritage whould fly the 3rd national 2nd national 1st national bonnie blue and then the battle and naval flags.... the racist people probaly dont know about more than one CONFEDERATE flag and probaly call it a "rebel" flag which calling it that shows ABSOULUTELY NO RESPECT and most people who have southern hweritage and cherish it will take that as an insult

another thing rios there is no arguement for flying a Nazi flag because they werent fighting for their rights they trying to conquer the world..... this thread can and most likely will last forever unless it gets closed which it most likely will

[-Jôker-]

obsolete thats funny cause the hostory said the swastika was and native american symbol meaning good luck and many native americans were murdered raped etc etc for it... wonder whats up with that if your right :rolleyes:

[cphilip]

Ok that pretty much does it...going a bit to far....

Fact is there is still hostility. Mostly from one side not willing to see the others side and neither side not wanting to admit the faults of the other. Fact was it took both sides to disagee and it resulted in a war niether side actually won as we can see. Hopefully more time will heal. I realy hope that. But now we are united in a struggle to survive from jealots that will destroy us if we do not unite. And we WILL unite and go on. Let's forgive and move on. We need to. But let's not forget what we should have learned. Fighting amongst ourselves leaves us behind and does us no good...and PAINTBALL IS GOOD! :D



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