*video* racegun cocker at 20bps

[paintslinger]

i found this video on pbc and its a cocker wit a racegun on full auto. although its set at 20bps the highest he actually got was 17.5. just thought id post it.

http://www.compulsivepaintball.com/jom/racemovie3.avi

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Impressive for a $650 upgrade to a cocker...kind of like pimpin out a honda civic..might as well just save your money and buy a Prelude..(Angel)

[paintslinger]

why when they do the samething? id like to have a racecocker more than an angel. but not more than a emag xtreme :)

[RT_Luver]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
Impressive for a $650 upgrade to a cocker...kind of like pimpin out a honda civic..might as well just save your money and buy a Prelude..(Angel)

or a Corvette(Emag)

[DiRTyBuNNy]

yes..but you see my point...i don't know why people waste their time engineering stupid stuff like this...what they should do is take all their engineering know how and go build their own marker from the ground up with this kind of technology...

[paintslinger]

well b/c people like it its the samething for people with hyperframes...i have one best 200 i ever spent i couldn't afford to go out and buy an emag for the electro trigger so i do the next best thing. it would be the samething with a cocker u spend so much time and money customizing it but u want an electro trigger...u go and get u a race b/c u love that gun and dont wanna get a new one

[TRIAD]

Nice

[Butterfingers]

Impressive.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

I'm not trying to argue...but comparing the racegun to a hyperframe doesn't really work...a $200 frame compared to a $650 one...hhhmm...i don't see the correlation..i get your point..but it still doesn't answer my question..just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should...oh well..

[paintslinger]

well last time i checked it was 500 but maybe it went up. but theres still the big price difference. but obviously due to the price tag its not for everybody. but just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should is true. but i didn't say to everyone "oh go out and buy a race frame or im going to kill u etc. etc." i just posted a video that i thought was kool.

[Blennidae]

The video is pretty cool, but why does the gun sound like its slowing down at the end?

[Curly]

First off paintslinger it is a 650 dollar upgrade because he has an anti-chop eye on there which is $100 extra. I do not think it is pointless to make an electro cocker whether it be race or sandridge etc. Autocockers like mags are tried and true guns that people like. i am not trying to start a debate about cockers and mags but i will say that there are many people that like cockers. Not everyone has the same tastes and thus it becomes a debate about personal preference.

While some people like angels i feel that they are a lot of hype. I dont dislike them but i dont think that they deserve to be the "better" gun or the prelude as Dirty Bunny called it. The angel in fact is no better than most guns on the market. When it comes down to the basic operation of the marker it is no more advanced then any other. I personally prefer cockers because cockers are more gentle on paint and can easily be made to do many things the angel can not. But those are those people (i being one of them) that like the speed of angels but prefer the operation of a cocker and the way they feel. For those of us it is posible to justify this upgrade into what i think is one of the best guns there is.

Though i personally prefer the Sandridge conversion i can totally justify why someone would want to make a very fast and well performing gun that does not chop or deform paint like an angel. Thanks for reading this and please understand that i am just trying to throw another opinion in and that i dont want to start a flame war about angels and cockers and mags.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Ah-ha grasshopper...twisting words..you must not do...i guess you didn't understand the Prelulde anology so i'll spell it out for all of you...you are adding electronics to a cocker to make it shoot as fast an angel; just like little racer boys in my hometown throw some headers, an intake and a turbo on a Civic just to give it more horsepower than a Prelue..some may like the turbo riced-out civics, some like Preludes...but when you really think about it..was it worth adding $5k to a civic to get as much HP as a Prelude (which has equivalent HP bone stock).....a lot of people would say no...

[liigod]

or an r32 VW golf

250 horsies

all wheel drive

MUAHAHAHAAAAAA

[MrMag]

lol colin..............btw i agree w/ curly.......btw have fun at sherwood tomorrow

[Gotenks]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
Impressive for a $650 upgrade to a cocker...kind of like pimpin out a honda civic..might as well just save your money and buy a Prelude..(Angel)

actually, the prelude isn't all what you think it is.

While it is sporty looking, with sporty features, and a h22a which is more powerful than a civic, a civic has way more potential.

Its funny to hear people say how much better it is to own a prelude than a civic, when the civic is so much lighter, and the smaller and lighter engine can be made to be way more powerful and more reliable.

when intelligent people figured this out, sales decreased, and thats why 2001 was the last year of the prelude :(

the prelude would of been "something" if it was rear-wheel drive, but I don't know what honda was thinking.

[paintslinger]

dirty, i see what ur saying but all in all u could do that but the reason y people go around throwing 5k in a car that can be the equal of a "prelude"(which only puts out 200hp at 7k:rolleyes: )" is b/c they like their civics and dont mind throwing money at it so that they can hopefully own some people on the street or strip.

[einhander619]

As long as we're making car car analogies here,

extreme c&c = Veilside/HKS Skyline GT-R 34:D

Initial D rocks it

[demonguy8]

imports as a whole just smell.... a prelude and a civic are BOTH SLOW AND BOTH overpriced.. they were not meant to be raced and anyone who tells you different is a complete idiot...NO AMOUNT OF STICKERS OR little blinking lights WILL MAKE YOUR CAR GO FASTER...
Buy a real car fer christs sakes....

(*flamethrower would normally be turned off about now but instead is put in idle since theres bound to be some riceburning AO owner trying to defend his stickered out POS with flashing lights.)

[headcase]

Originally posted by Blennidae
The video is pretty cool, but why does the gun sound like its slowing down at the end?

Because it has an ACE, when the HALO was running out of paint, the ACE slowed down the rate of fire to help avoid chopping.


To the rest of you..........everyone likes different things for different reasons........some like cockers, some angels, some mags, some riceburners, some redneck rockets..........just let to go, no need to argue over every thing. Specially by starting with "I don't mean to argue" or something similar.

This place is really getting like PBC and PBN............it's rediculous.

[dansim]

impressive

but everyone knoows angels are like bentlys(well custom ones anyway)

also on a side note mako is makin an electronic grip frame for the cocker under 200 at the end of the season

[Butterfingers]

Ahh! you guys gotta stop playing around with 4 bangers.

If you want to have no compromise in performance you gotta get an e-mag hands down. An e-mag is like a Dodge Viper, bone stock it lays a spankin down to any other production car out there.

[pip_999]

i know jack about cars

but either way its a LOVELY video, that guy has some pretty nice aim.

i wonder who was saying go, and if u listen about half way through you hear someone saying WHOA
kinda funny

[Blennidae]

Headcase, thanks for the info.

[FutureMagOwner]

ill take a mustang anyday(as long as its gt premium :D) or maybe a vipe or a ford truck of some sort or a hummer(for running over hondas :D)


anyway i wish my cocker could do that(atleast be able to shoot with the detent on)

[kevdupuis]

I like the electronic cocker, thats why I have one. I also like my mag, thats also why I have it. What I use, depends on how I'm playing. That's also why I have a small dodge and a 428 powered 66 ford in my garage.

My cocker is a centerflag equiped 2k1 v/f, mag is cf30046 pf/l with Boo Yaa frame.

[Curly]

What kind do you have kev?

[WhoDaresPlay]

Originally posted by RT_Luver
or a Corvette(Emag)

Or a ferrari... IR3. ;)

[Curly]

Originally posted by WhoDaresPlay


Or a ferrari... IR3. ;)

Or not. Ferrari is about performance and angels do not perform any better then electro cockers. I mean would you expect to have to replace your ferrari engine every six months like you have to replace the board on angels?

[WhoDaresPlay]

Originally posted by Curly
Or not. Ferrari is about performance and angels do not perform any better then electro cockers. I mean would you expect to have to replace your ferrari engine every six months like you have to replace the board on angels?

Did you see the smiley face with the wink? I was "joking." I was merely making a pun, thus supplying the smilies to show my "mood" while posting.

Actually my motor has been ticking for 2 years, 8 months, 4 days and 96,450 cycles. So maybe I have one of those Modenas...

[WhoDaresPlay]

I run WDP's owners group, it'd be uncivilized to say anything less. Plus Rob would attempt to belittle me again if I spoke out anything related to emag.

[Curly]

lol ok, if your board has lasted that long then you should be very happy. Sorry for the harsh sounding response. :)

[liigod]

lol, yea but its true that angel boards have to be changed out like batteries lol. They fry left and right. All of my angel owning friends will agree, cept for the ones you cant get a hold of, they are on the phone with wdp trying to get a replacement board

[WhoDaresPlay]

well the goal to my point and to this thread was to discuss the racegun cocker at 20bps.

Not: "Lets complain about angel boards." There is a forum on here for that, oddly enough.

[liigod]

ok, fair enough, that cocker is sick :-)

[DiRTyBuNNy]

I know i'm the one who started the controversy...so i'll end it..but i must say...that gun does shoot like a dream..

[rudy]

um did anyone even check to see if that gun was shooting 20 bps? I saw the same video and it was said that it was 17 so what is it?

any how on another note I think that the main reason people are gonna throw the money down for the race is cause the believe the cocker is more accurate. but there are a bunch of other reasons too

[Curly]

Yes i belive this gun tops out at about 17-17.5 bps which is still incredibly fast. he is going to hook up a warp feed and see what happens.

[WhoDaresPlay]

so now those goggles he has on... those are new for 2002, right?

[DiRTyBuNNy]

the only thing that bugs me about the racegun frame is the stray wires running from the frame to the 5-way...

[liigod]

the thing that bothers me is how bad the trigger is, and how jankety the trigger design is.

[Curly]

supposedly they are going to release a new microswitch and trigger design. These were the reasons that i stayed away from race gun. Well actually i really dont like the way they set up their anti-chop eye either.

[DarkRipper]

Being a racegun owner, I don't find the trigger "jankety" at all.

The wires shouldn't be loose, they should be wrapped up in clear protective wrap.

Next, my racecocker is the ONLY gun in my 9 years that I've kept after a month or two of playing with it. That speaks a lot as I'm a picky bastard when it comes to paintball guns.

Whodaresplays got to shoot my race, he seemed to like it quite a bit.

I'd say you should try one before you start saying "jankey".

:)
DR

[Curly]

Well i have shot one and i really wasnt incredibly inpressed. I personally like the sandridge cockers and i am on my second right now. once they come out with the new race trigger design then maybe i will take a second look at them. To tell you the truth this all comes down to personal preference and at this point i prefer the angel trigger on the sandridges.

[@TheOne@]

Screw that aston martins and bimmers all the way!!!!

[DarkRipper]

Now that Sandridge put their electronics in the grip, they're actually worth buying... however their track record on repair work leaves something to be desired.

That's why I went with the Race over the Sandy. The Sandy is a nice gun, and the trigger is a bit nicer on it. I just don't like how many people have had trouble with customer service.

:)
DR

[ddindc]

DR, did you buy a complete gun built by Racegun, or just the frame? I'm thinking about getting a 'cocker, my first ever (I'm ditching the 'mag. I'm sick of AGD's excessivly long development time and sub-par performance. They constantly come up with "new advancements" that are one to two years behind the curve. Level ten? Its just a way to make the 'mag have 'cocker's low volume characteristics. Next they'll come up with something that will make the 'mag shoot flatter, even though they keep insisting that 'mag arc is just a myth). I'm torn between a mechanical cocker (a Works), or the new Racegun Half-Block. What do you think?

[Curly]

Those racegun half blocks are really sweet looking. If you can afford it i think that this would be the way to go.

[paintslinger]

Originally posted by ddindc
(I'm ditching the 'mag. I'm sick of AGD's excessivly long development time and sub-par performance. They constantly come up with "new advancements" that are one to two years behind the curve. Level ten? Its just a way to make the 'mag have 'cocker's low volume characteristics. Next they'll come up with something that will make the 'mag shoot flatter, even though they keep insisting that 'mag arc is just a myth

*puts flame suit on*

[AcemanPB]

Originally posted by ddindc
DR, did you buy a complete gun built by Racegun, or just the frame? I'm thinking about getting a 'cocker, my first ever (I'm ditching the 'mag. I'm sick of AGD's excessivly long development time and sub-par performance. They constantly come up with "new advancements" that are one to two years behind the curve. Level ten? Its just a way to make the 'mag have 'cocker's low volume characteristics. Next they'll come up with something that will make the 'mag shoot flatter, even though they keep insisting that 'mag arc is just a myth). I'm torn between a mechanical cocker (a Works), or the new Racegun Half-Block. What do you think?

i'm not gonna say anything but your asking for it :rolleyes:

ps. if i remeber right the RT valve is STILL one of the fastest recharging vavles and it was made how many years ago? people on this board got the emag up to 30bps, how many other markers have done that? jesus and pick up a physics book it's not that hard


this is not a flame but i'm sure some are on thier way

[RT_Luver]

Originally posted by Curly


Or not. Ferrari is about performance and angels do not perform any better then electro cockers. I mean would you expect to have to replace your ferrari engine every six months like you have to replace the board on angels?

I would put a cocker witht he ferrati. their both tinker toys. Ferrari's are cars you have if you have a garage because you always need to adjust something or try to make it better

[ddindc]

I don't car how fast a valve cycles, I'm not buying it if it produces strings that look like freeking rainbows. I mean Christ, you puts some marbs in your mag's hopper and it looks like a freaking gay pride parade at the 'sup air field! Physics book? No thanks, I'd rather shoot some paint. That's the problem with AGD, they spend to much time researching excuses in physics textbooks and not enough time devolping products that work well.

[AcemanPB]

no seriously do you know what happens when you have the same paint to barrel match on different markers shooting the same FPS???? just about everyone else in the paintball comunity does (atleast the smart ones)

[ddindc]

So I guess you guys have developed all this insight on maintence characteristics of Ferraris from first hand expereince? Boy, some rich guys around here. Or maybe that's envy? Like looking at a beutiful girl and remarking "she must be high maintence." Do you guys suffer from 'cocker envy, too?

[ddindc]

You're right, Ace, I'm stupid. And so are just about every professional tourney player as well. There are other factors besides paint match. Open vs. Closed ring a bell? And ye shall worship at the foot of Kaye. Seriously, are you guys like Heaven's Gate or something? Do you have little uniforms with physics equations printed on them. "s=vt"

[AcemanPB]

well for the reccord my uncle does have a Ferraris and yes i have driven it :)


i didn't call you stupid, but this is fact, there have been numerous test on open vs. closed bolt and all of them have turned up the same answer... it doesn't matter

[ddindc]

Really, man you are special! I've drivenn about four Ferrairs in my lifetime (Testerosa, 355, 360, 550), and to the last one, none were excessivly maintence heavy. Infact, the 360 and 550 are every-day drivers, just like any other car. But Ace, youstill haven't cleared up the Open vs. Closed debate for me. What, you waiting on that answer from Tom, too?

[paintslinger]

oh jeebus here comes the open vs closed bolt arguement again...:eek:

[ddindc]

Really, "numerous test"? Performed by who? Oh, right, AGD. "Listen, don't believe your eyes, believe our biased test results!" I don't care how many tests AGD does, they still can't win over pros, the guys who make thier living on their markers. That speaks volumes. But everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as their opinion is based on some rediculous brand loyalty. I shoot whatever shoots the best. AGD makes a marker as accurate and long as the 'cocker, I'll start shooting mags again. Till then, I'm getting a cocker. You guys can keep waiting and waiting and waiting for that extreme mag. Maybe switching over to a cocker barrel will flatten out that mag trajectory.

[rudy]

ddindc you could have a point but at least put some inteligence behind it. what do you think the half block is? its cockers trying to catch up with the rest of the guns they are slow. and dont blame AGD its not like wgp is exactly at the edge of technology most all the advancement of cockers is after market and it doesnt get taken in house till years after its been out. here is how it is. cockers had ball breakage under control if tuned right for a bit now. and AGD is trying to get it under control now. So you say they are behind the curve, but agd has had a gun that was fast for years. It was just a matter of where they started that determined what they are playing catch up with now.

[ddindc]

I didn't say anything about WGP being ahead of the curve, they ain't, but their gun is infiniatly more tunable and its shot characteristcs, out of the box, are far better than any AGD gun. There's just no argument there as long as you've had the chance to shoot both guns. As for speed, the RT is really fast...really fast at chopping paint. I'd rather have a gun that I know will send paint where I want it to go than a gun that can arc and chop paint real quick. So AGD is trying to fix those problems, great, good for them. It only took them ten years to do it. Actually, it took a lot less time than that, they spent the first 9 and 1/2 years denieing there was any problem at all. At this rate, Mags will shoot flat in 2012. So, by my accounts,. I got another ten years of smoking mag guys before I got to worry. If AGD gets its stuff together, great, I'll bnuy a mag. But it don't, and I wont.

[AcemanPB]

Originally posted by ddindc
Really, "numerous test"? Performed by who? Oh, right, AGD. "Listen, don't believe your eyes, believe our biased test results!" I don't care how many tests AGD does, they still can't win over pros, the guys who make thier living on their markers. That speaks volumes. But everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as their opinion is based on some rediculous brand loyalty. I shoot whatever shoots the best. AGD makes a marker as accurate and long as the 'cocker, I'll start shooting mags again. Till then, I'm getting a cocker. You guys can keep waiting and waiting and waiting for that extreme mag. Maybe switching over to a cocker barrel will flatten out that mag trajectory.

nope wasn't AGD, if i remeber right it was WARPIG who did this test.

i do not believe AGD would purposley cheat us out, nor do i with any other respected paintball company

yeah but cockers must be preety amazing if they can defy physics, the same physics by wich all other mater acts by



usally i leave arguments like this alone but hey i'm bored

[ddindc]

Maxim said the Extreme was the best gun in the world. Must be true then. But you're right, that's why pros play exclusivly with mags, cause of their fantastic shot characteristics. Oh, wait, they don't. Man, keep buying guns based on bench tests, and I'll smoke you everytime. And you say the Race is an effort to keep upwith the times? What do you call the mag? Its an RT with an electro grip. No inovation there. Boyahh figured it out about three years ago. Cocker threads? Well, that's self explanitory. Level ten? Trying to mimic a low volume gun. In the electro dept, there a numerous guns that are YEARS ahead of the Emag, Extreme mag Or what ever othe variant they can come up with. The mag better be able to shoot 20bps, cause you need to spew that much paint to get a kill with those things.

[paintslinger]

oh yea and just ever pro player uses a cocker...i donno about u but it seems angels now outnumber both mags and cockers. and oh no guess what angels are open bolt. now its imposible for an open bolt gun to be better than the all mighty closed bolt gun:rolleyes:

[AcemanPB]

man you really are hard headed


Same paint to barrell, Same FPS, DIFFERENT guns = THE SAME TRAJECTORY


cockers cannot magicly defy physics go ask bud orr! go ask your science teacher! go ask anyone!

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by ddindc
DR, did you buy a complete gun built by Racegun, or just the frame? I'm thinking about getting a 'cocker, my first ever I'm torn between a mechanical cocker (a Works), or the new Racegun Half-Block. What do you think?

I got it set up like this from Pro Paintball. Actually, I got it used from someone else who bought it at World Cup 2k1 from Pro Paintball setup like this, to be exact.

I think the halfblock racegun is going to be an astounding little gun, lots of firepower in a small package. They've gotten them up to 17.5 bps with a Halo B and the anti-chop eye on full auto.

Gotta love that.

:)
DR

[ddindc]

They don't defy physics, there's just more factors to trajectory than velocity and pressure. Physics equations are written with the assumption that, when all things are equal in a vacuum, then this will be the behavior of matter. All things are not equal in mags and cockers. First, the big difference, open bolt vs. closed. Second, different barrel system. Third, different volumes. There are probably hundred of other minute, but no less influencial, differences that are not accounted for or tested. Out of the box, a cocker shots flatter and farther than a mag. Try it yourself, I have. Its the reason I'm getting a cocker. As far as angels vs. cockers. First, you are admitting that pros don't play with mags, but prefer angels. You are therefor admiting that Angels are (in the eys of pros) better than mags and cockers. Angels have a huge advantage over a cocker; they're electros. Even in the limited firing mode (semi), they fire much faster than a cocker. However, there are still a tremendous number of pros that, even in the era of electros, shoot cockers-a testament to their ability. I am, of course, taking your assumption (that more pros shot angels than cockers) at face value; I don't know if its true or not. Whether it is or isn't is irrelevant, since we are talking about mags. And the undeniable truth is: of those who can shot whatever they wish (pros) more chose to shot cockers than mags by a large majority. Now you can all sit around and try and come up with excuses as to why this is, but I wouldn't bother; whole threads are devoted to this question and the "enigma" has yet to be solved. (Psst, here a hint: cockers are better markers than mags)

[ddindc]

Thanks DR. How the trigger feel? How low can you shoot the gun? Iheard you need to up the volume a bit

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by ddindc
Maxim said the Extreme was the best gun in the world. Must be true then. But you're right, that's why pros play exclusivly with mags, cause of their fantastic shot characteristics. Oh, wait, they don't. Man, keep buying guns based on bench tests, and I'll smoke you everytime. And you say the Race is an effort to keep upwith the times? What do you call the mag? Its an RT with an electro grip. No inovation there. Boyahh figured it out about three years ago. Cocker threads? Well, that's self explanitory. Level ten? Trying to mimic a low volume gun. In the electro dept, there a numerous guns that are YEARS ahead of the Emag, Extreme mag Or what ever othe variant they can come up with. The mag better be able to shoot 20bps, cause you need to spew that much paint to get a kill with those things.

LOL you have FACTS to prove your babble.

Mecanically the RT is years ahead of any marker ever produced. It is the only valve system capable of producing a ROF of 26 BPS with NO shootdown whatsoever and will continue to cycle faster. Hands down it is currently the fastest gun PERIOD.

There are advantages to electro sear actuation. One being response time. Electricity flows a heck of alot faster than air.

Another being the ability to go to manual overide

It is also more reliable.

Other than being "not in" or not "cool" electro sear actuation is superior to pnumatic actuation given the right valve combo.

You quote accuracy and range and trajectory. Sorry Issac Newton proved you wrong centuries ago. His laws still apply to all appliactions of physics and are responsible for such precise calculations such as guided weaponry and space shuttle launches. I guess cockers defy physics huh?

Level 10 is not trying to mimic a low volume gun. You should do some research before blabing out nonsense like an idiot. Level 10 was a culmination of scientific research that determined that bolt speed NOT pressure had to do with ball breakage. In fact the firing pressure of the gun was determined to be irrelevant to the probability a gun broke a ball. Level 10 is not trying to mimic low volume or low pressure in any way it still fires using the same pressure the mechanics are just built in a way in which bolt speeds are dramatically reduced. Hey scinence works belive it or not...

When people continue to deny undeniable evidence its somthing psychiatrists call DENIAL. You are too caught up in marketing hype to realize the truth.

So instead of spouting out random babble why dont you give me evidence on why your reasons are correct...

Cause you can't...

What do you want a gun that is "in" or a gun that performs?

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by ddindc
They don't defy physics, there's just more factors to trajectory than velocity and pressure. Physics equations are written with the assumption that, when all things are equal in a vacuum, then this will be the behavior of matter. All things are not equal in mags and cockers. First, the big difference, open bolt vs. closed. Second, different barrel system. Third, different volumes. There are probably hundred of other minute, but no less influencial, differences that are not accounted for or tested. Out of the box, a cocker shots flatter and farther than a mag. Try it yourself, I have. Its the reason I'm getting a cocker. As far as angels vs. cockers. First, you are admitting that pros don't play with mags, but prefer angels. You are therefor admiting that Angels are (in the eys of pros) better than mags and cockers. Angels have a huge advantage over a cocker; they're electros. Even in the limited firing mode (semi), they fire much faster than a cocker. However, there are still a tremendous number of pros that, even in the era of electros, shoot cockers-a testament to their ability. I am, of course, taking your assumption (that more pros shot angels than cockers) at face value; I don't know if its true or not. Whether it is or isn't is irrelevant, since we are talking about mags. And the undeniable truth is: of those who can shot whatever they wish (pros) more chose to shot cockers than mags by a large majority. Now you can all sit around and try and come up with excuses as to why this is, but I wouldn't bother; whole threads are devoted to this question and the "enigma" has yet to be solved. (Psst, here a hint: cockers are better markers than mags)


I am a physyics minor and I can tell you the only thing that makes a lick of diffrence is the angle of departure and the velocity given the same environment.

Its common sense if two identical projectiles have a velocity of 300 fps 1 foot in front of the gun you are telling me that one gun has magical effects that can warp the properties of a projectile...

I think not.

Stop reading marketing hype. Its called projectile motion.

http://www.pbstar.com/randebtherre.html

http://www.pbstar.com/semiauto1.html Compare them they are largely the SAME.



Want proof... Independent tests. Again you have shown me nothing...

The "factors" you have quoted have absolutely NO effect on the flight of the ball. Its not just knowing physics its knowing what laws to apply.

What you are saying is similar to saying: "Trucks can fly because of the turbulance that is caused under its big tires which causes lift. I know trucks can fly because it has big tires and a huge engine which gives it lift. You cant say that trucks cant fly because there are too many variables out there that are not accounted for in a truck's ability to fly."

Big tires and a huge engine on trucks obviously play no bearing on a truck's ability to fly.

Again and again science has proven this range and trajectory nonsense babble WRONG and people continue to deny it.

Its like a religion. Its like taking away your god.

[FaSSt]

Originally posted by ddindc
......


You are right about the level of hero-worship on this board - it would be pathetic were it not for the fact that most of those guilty of it are pre-pubescent (well, let's hope, anyway).

However, I think that you are quite wrong in slamming AGD in general, and many of its products in particular.

I don't know whether you are a "pro" or not (and I could argue the point that unless you play for the Russian Legion, you are not a pro), or what your paintball background is, but I have been playing paintball for a long time. Long time as in before the Automag. Long time as in before the Autococker. Long time as in original Sniper I. Long time as before the Sniper even had an autotrigger mod available. Not that this background makes my arguments that much more compelling, but perhaps it establishes a certain qualification.

AGD's Automag was truly revolutionary in terms of performance, and while it has been surpassed in some ways, it remains a very credible benchmark in general. Yes, there are guns out there that outperform it in some ways, but EVERYTHING is a tradeoff. Durability, rate of fire, tuneability, consistency (the paintball equivalent of accuracy), the lack of the need to tune a gun (the exact opposite of tuneability), cost, etc. can ALL be legitimate criteria for measuring the relative position of a given gun in the overall hierarchy.

You exhibit a definite bias against Automags – perhaps your prejudice prevents you from seeing how a Mag could well not chop paint and be consistent, etc. I have seen Mags shoot poorly, but I know that neither the Retro Mag I owned nor my current Emag chop. In fact, none of the guns (AGD or not) I have ever owned chopped, primarily because I know how to maintain and use them. Would an AKA Merlin be gentler on super-brittle tournament paint? Probably. I know that an Angel would not be. But since I rarely shoot the stuff, and since both my Warp and Halo B are capable of reducing chopping even with tourney paint at any rate of fire to a non-issue, the difference is academic. And I don’t have the Level 10 Mod, since I really don’t have a need for it.

As far as physics…well, physics is physics. Ballistics research predates paintball by a few centuries, so I doubt that any intelligent and reasonably well-educated adult can argue some of the points consistently at issue. “Reasonably well-educated” being the key phrase here. In any event, those formulating or perpetuating marketing myths often have a stronger impact on the general perception than those arguing technical points.

And as far as cars…Ferraris are more than performance machines, as they are works of art. However, despite you having driven a few as you say, they still do (and older models definitely did) require more tuning and maintenance than less extraordinary cars. Have you ever tuned mechanical fuel injection or balanced a quartet of carburetors? If you have, you know that tuning the most ill behaved, leaky, abused Cocker is, comparatively speaking, cake. This is not by no means a slam on the Ferrari, just a comment on the nature of the beast. But just as there are many models of that car, there are many Cockers.

The Emag, to continue this analogy, is probably more like a Viper GTS, but who cares?

The Racegun is a very nice and impressive piece of technology, as is the Emag. And isn’t the Racegun video what this thread was all about?

[ddindc]

Do you ride the short bus to school? Do you have to wear a helmet, even when you arn't riding a bike? First, read my last couple of posts. You accuse me of buying the hype? Keep sucking Tom Kaye's cck and believe everything he tells you while you get out-gunned every weekend. Who needs to shot 20bps? People who can't hit the broadside of a barn. You're not even allowed to in a tourny. Who needs accuracy? Everyone. Range? Everyone. I said it once and I'll say it again. As far as mimicing low volume, what I mean is the gentle nature of the bolt on the ball. Wow you can put your finger in the barrel of a mag. You know how long you'v ebeen able to do that with a cocker? A Timmy? Keep catching up, AGD. Like I said: some people use physics as an excuse (Tom Kaye), others just apply it. How long did AGD deny the mag's chopping problem? How many different ways did they explain it away? What's changed? Now all of a sudden it IS a problem, and (surprise), they have an solution. Now all you have to do is wait a year or two and you might be able to buy it.

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by ddindc
Do you ride the short bus to school? Do you have to wear a helmet, even when you arn't riding a bike? First, read my last couple of posts. You accuse me of buying the hype? Keep sucking Tom Kaye's cck and believe everything he tells you while you get out-gunned every weekend. Who needs to shot 20bps? People who can't hit the broadside of a barn. You're not even allowed to in a tourny. Who needs accuracy? Everyone. Range? Everyone. I said it once and I'll say it again. As far as mimicing low volume, what I mean is the gentle nature of the bolt on the ball. Wow you can put your finger in the barrel of a mag. You know how long you'v ebeen able to do that with a cocker? A Timmy? Keep catching up, AGD. Like I said: some people use physics as an excuse (Tom Kaye), others just apply it. How long did AGD deny the mag's chopping problem? How many different ways did they explain it away? What's changed? Now all of a sudden it IS a problem, and (surprise), they have an solution. Now all you have to do is wait a year or two and you might be able to buy it.

LOL, I see you are slamming me not the ideas good job... way to show your ignorance...

Try applying some science... and again wheres your proof OH YOU HAVE NONE!

I like how you claim physics is an "excuse" sorry bud the laws of physics govern the phenomenon in our universe.

So where is what you have done.

1) You have provided no proof

2) You continue to deny the natural laws of the universe

3) You make attacks toward me to try to cover up for your lack of evidence.

Heres a quote from Websters:

"An unconscious defense mechanism characterized by refusal to acknowledge painful realities, thoughts, or feelings.
The act of disowning or disavowing; repudiation."

Sorry Physics is REAL

[ddindc]

He's a physics MINOR! Gosh, I'm honored. Guess you'll be publishing that "string theory" stuff pretty soon, huh? So what's that like? Do you get a degree for that, or is it just something to put on your resume. Keep on keepin' on, guys. Maybe one day you can (gasp) touch the hand of Tom Kaye! Pathetic. Keep counting the days for the extreme mag. Then at least you will have somehting worth a damn; a cocker barrel. Oh, and by the way, I've owned a mag for four years. No mechanical problems, everything was fine. Then one day I played with a cocker. I was blown away by how much more accurate it was. Its range. I don't even own one yet. I didn't chop. I didn't arc. No more sliced balls ripping off at 40 degrees. Amazing.

[ddindc]

Where's YOUR science?

[rudy]

Really, "numerous test"? Performed by who? Oh, right, AGD. "Listen, don't believe your eyes, believe our biased test results!"

look the test results could be bias. thats not uncommon. but they make sense, they are physically correct and there isnt any one doing any other test to counter them. This is a real problem in paintball. there arent any numbers every thing i just cause i can feel it or see it, or cause the guy at the shop said so. Thats why most of us are here we want to see proof not hype. and so far it looks like the only one offering us proof is AGD.


Man, keep buying guns based on bench tests, and I'll smoke you everytime

Ok right cause I bought a gun based on bench test Im going get smoked. well I think the player has alot more to do with the game then the gun but hey if your up for it who am I to decline a challenge for a 1v1. put your money where you mouth is and stop by and lets have a 1v1.


And you say the Race is an effort to keep upwith the times? What do you call the mag? Its an RT with an electro grip. No inovation there. Boyahh figured it out about three years ago.

You should really read a post before you make a stupid reply
I said half block. which is not the race frame. and that is an attempt to get the cocker up to speed. Oh does this also mean the boyaa was a reliable electronic frame that had a manual backup in case it failed? apparently not since they went under.


Cocker threads? Well, that's self explanitory.

yes it is agd needed a threaded barrels to incorperate the removeable breech, and rather then make a whole new thread they used a popular existing one so people could have aftermarket barrels right away. is that the explanation you saw?


Level ten? Trying to mimic a low volume gun

well obviously you have no clue what your talking about. what does low volume have to do with it. I think you need to use the word low force and yes the automag is moving to low force bolt operation at least for the first part.


They don't defy physics, there's just more factors
to trajectory than velocity and pressure.

You are correct but you apparently dont know any of them.


Out of the box, a cocker shots flatter and farther than a mag. Try it yourself

all those who have tried to prove this so far have failed.

show me some proof and I will believe you



uggg this thread is growing so fast i cant even keep up with it

[ddindc]

"velocity and pressure given the same enviornment". So a spiralled barrel adds nothing to a firearm? This has nothing to do with pressure or velocity. What about spinning the projectile? Not that this has any relevence to a paintball gun, just an example of something that does "make a lick of differnce"

[ddindc]

Sure, I'll go 1v1. You get a pump, and I'll take a halo-fed Angel. Still think guns have nothing to do with it?

[FaSSt]

Hey, a funny and generally amusing troll is still a troll.


Your logic is fundamentally wrong, since the assumptions you base your arguments are wrong:

1. Mags are not accurate enough, hence you are "outgunned" if you use one - hmmm, I have never heard this applied to my Emag, but maybe it's just my charming personality

2. A chopping "problem" exists - All those tens of thousands of peopel buying Mags are all chopping? Or maybe just those who can't maintain or use their guns properly? I know the ones I have owned or tuned for friends don't chop any more than any other (non-ACE) gun.

3. AGD products are announced way before release - So? Besides, Emag Xtremes have been available for a long time now from AGD Europe. At least AGD finally DELIVERS on its promises, with generally great customer service to boot.

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by ddindc
"velocity and pressure given the same enviornment". So a spiralled barrel adds nothing to a firearm? This has nothing to do with pressure or velocity. What about spinning the projectile? Not that this has any relevence to a paintball gun, just an example of something that does "make a lick of differnce"

Spiraling in a firearm does not effect range nor trajectory. However it relies on a principle called spin stabalization that stabalizes the projectile in flight leading to greater accuracy. That does not exist in spherical paintballs. You do know what happens when paintballs spin dont you, like when you have a bit of oil or pain in your barrel. The accuracy decreases the balls go everywhere.

Please know what you are talking about before attacking me...

Again where is your evidence... Im kinda sick of asking the same question.

Nothing has proven your claims whatsoever.

[ddindc]

Mags don't chop? Then why is a level ten mod necessary? That's a lot of resources being poured into R&D for a problem that doesn't exist. As far as delivering, there is one of my greatest gripes with AGD and shows their desperate need for a marlketing department. As for EAGD, no you can NOT buy an extreme mag from them. They sold ONE ( a conversion) and stopped.

[FaSSt]

Originally posted by ddindc
...What about spinning the projectile? Not that this has any relevence to a paintball gun, just an example of something that does "make a lick of differnce"

For your information, paintballs are nothing like the solid metal projectile that a bullet is. Early liquid mercury filled (true Dum-Dum) bullets were notoriously inaccurate as a result of the rifling being unable to spin-stabilize the projectile. This quality, rendering them next to useless in combat, was the reason the British did not fight internationals protocols outlawing the bullets' use.

[ddindc]

And I ask you again, sir, where is your proof! As for accuracy, that is one of the great advantages to a cocker. Much more accurate. Where you going to hang that "minor" in physics? Your garage?

[rudy]

no actually I get my mag and you get a cocker since that is what you say I am outgunned with. And once again you need to read my post. I never said the gun didnt have anything to do with tipping the scales now did I. I was just pointing out that you saying people with mags are gonna get smoked is not true. but of course you are going to bring your cocker by and prove me wrong arent you?

[ddindc]

Rudy, i this is true, then why do pros chose cockers over mags? And I'm not interested in a 1 v 1; you sound like the kind of guy that would try and go backdoor on me. I will Thai Box you. Or a Brazilian Ju Jitsu fight. How about that?

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by ddindc
Mags don't chop? Then why is a level ten mod necessary? That's a lot of resources being poured into R&D for a problem that doesn't exist. As far as delivering, there is one of my greatest gripes with AGD and shows their desperate need for a marlketing department. As for EAGD, no you can NOT buy an extreme mag from them. They sold ONE ( a conversion) and stopped.

Almost any gun can and will chop. AGD has found a soultion that makes this virtually impossible.

Its called improvement. And has nothing to do with the guns prior performance.

WGP made improvements year to year on the autococker. So there must be a severe and drastic problem in a 2000 autococker because they did somthing diffrent in 2002 right?

Thats just silly.

[FaSSt]

Originally posted by ddindc
there is one of my greatest gripes with AGD and shows their desperate need for a marlketing department.

You could not be more right. Their marketing is downright pathetic. It sucks. It's horribe. And the worst part is that they know it! Still, that does not in the short term affect the quality of their products.



Originally posted by ddindc
As for EAGD, no you can NOT buy an extreme mag from them. They sold ONE ( a conversion) and stopped.

WRONG. I know this first hand, since I called them months ago, and got shipped prices for an Xtreme with additional breach modules. (I ended up getting a new AR-15 instead, but that's not the point.)

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by ddindc
And I ask you again, sir, where is your proof! As for accuracy, that is one of the great advantages to a cocker. Much more accurate. Where you going to hang that "minor" in physics? Your garage?

I have provided you with proof its in my previous post's edits.

Compare the guns listed. The accuracy is pretty much the SAME.

I see that you are still attacking me good job. Makin up for a lack of substance huh?

Actually after I finish my MCATS my physics minor will probably be hangin in the garage.

[AcemanPB]

is it just me or is this guy getting dumber every post :rolleyes:

[ddindc]

Neal, I do not accept a biased, limited bech test as proof of anything, sir! As for that other guy, Bob, they may have given you prices, but they have since stoped selling them through EAGD. That is true!

[ddindc]

Aceman, I think I know you. Do you know a girl named Dee?

[ddindc]

So tell me, you of the army of the pocket protector, why is it that pros shot cockers and not mags?

[ddindc]

I hope you don;t ever operate on me, Neal. You'd probably insist on using leaches 'cause you don;t want to buy into "the hype" of modern medicine

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by AcemanPB
is it just me or is this guy getting dumber every post :rolleyes:

Na his arguements were dumb to begin with.

1) Follows faulty logic.

2) Continues to deny the factual information presented to him.

3) Provides NO factual premise behind his claims

4) Continues to attack the writers and people to make up for the lack of substance.

5) Draws faulty analogies.

6) Attemps to label things as bad because he thinks its bad. In essence trying to suggest and assert somthing is bad cause he says so.

Can we add more to the list I think we can...

[ddindc]

Neal, do youhave anything to do with Modified Paintball? If so, are you telling me that cockers are not as good as mags? Then why do you sell them? I guess I won't bother purchasing from you then

[ddindc]

Neal, you fail to answer my question. Why do pros pick cockers?

[FaSSt]

Originally posted by ddindc
So tell me, you of the army of the pocket protector, why is it that pros shot cockers and not mags?

You should post on this board once in a while in a serious manner. There is too much a$$ kissing going on in general, but so what? Kids need rolemodels, and I don't think that Tom Kaye is a bad one.

As far as pros, I suspect that performance is only one factor. But, ultimately, tournaments are only a small fraction of paintball in eny event.

And of course AGD Europe eventually stopped shpping Xremes here. Are you familiar with the terms "gray market goods" and "channel conflict?"

[ddindc]

1. faulty how?
2. What "factual information"; do you have any unbiased data?
3. Faulty analogies? Like what? He stated nothing affects the characteristics of a projectile other than angle and velocity. This is not true. If you spin it, it is more accurate. Fact, not faulty.

[ddindc]

They stopped shipping PERIOD. Not just here. "Small" part of the industry? It is the industry's only siginificant form of promotion. Pros can shoot whatever they want for whoever they want. They chose cockers over mags by a large majority. Guys who depend on their markers for their livelyhood don't shoot mags. Why is this? Answer this question, please

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by ddindc
So tell me, you of the army of the pocket protector, why is it that pros shot cockers and not mags?

AGD provides no financial support to any pro teams. It is just not thier policy. AGD has spent much time and resources in previous years designing products for law enforcement and miliatry use. If you ever hear of the Fabrique Nationale XM303 which uses AGD's military valve. Or NASA's high altitude inflatable wing plane which uses the flatline regulator, and a variety of other projects. They are the sole manufacturer of plastic paintballs for jaycor industries used in non lethal chemical supression. And also produce fin stabalized bismuth filled impact rounds for less than lethal supression.

It costs tens of thousands of dollars to be competitive professional paintball. Where are you going to get the money?

If spyder gave me $50,000 to play pro paintball using thier products heck why not! Money is money.

[FaSSt]

Originally posted by ddindc
If you spin it, it is more accurate. Fact, not faulty.

Faulty because sprial porting or internal rifling does NOT spin liquid projectiles in paintball. The only barrel that does is the Tippmann Flatline, and there the axis of rotation is different than the ballistic path of the projectile.

If you came up with a way that really spun a paintball, then yes, it would be more accurate.

[ddindc]

First off, the sydarm and thier "police training fascility" were disasters. FN cant selling that p.o.s.; everyone in the military/police community uses simmunition. Believe me, I know this. And not all teams that shoot cockers are sponsored by Worr.

[ddindc]

blah blah blah. AGD's going out of business anyway. Keep on shooting, suckas.

[ddindc]

Neal, what's your affiliiation with modified paintball?

[FaSSt]

Originally posted by ddindc
They stopped shipping PERIOD. Not just here.

Do you live in a parallel universe?




Originally posted by ddindc
Guys who depend on their markers for their livelyhood don't shoot mags. Why is this? Answer this question, please

Ahem, so I suppose Bad Company thinks that Spyders are the #1 out there? So something like, say, sponsorship, would have nothing to do with it, right?

Also, how many pros actually make a living directly through playing paintball? Let me help you out here - none.

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by ddindc
1. faulty how?
2. What "factual information"; do you have any unbiased data?
3. Faulty analogies? Like what? He stated nothing affects the characteristics of a projectile other than angle and velocity. This is not true. If you spin it, it is more accurate. Fact, not faulty.

1) Usually arguement require some degree of proof to support your statement.

2) Its not my problem if you can't accept any of the published independent resources that have been presented to you. How about presenting data period?

3) If you spin a bullet it will be more accurate. If you spin a paintball it will curve. For the most part given a smoothbore barrel the paintball will leave the gun non-rotating.

We sell cockers because people like them and thats how we make money. And to be honest they ARE nice guns. Honestly I can give two craps if you buy from me or not. There are alot of other people who know us that can testify to our no bullcrap attitudes and honest upright practices.

[AcemanPB]

Originally posted by ddindc
blah blah blah. AGD's going out of business anyway. Keep on shooting, suckas.

LOL hahahahaha he really is getting more and more stupid!

[ddindc]

good luck in the healthcare industry, neal. Its going to be socialized soon. No money there.

[ddindc]

Neal, I can't say a smile came with this conversation. What "idependent" data have you presented?

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by ddindc
blah blah blah. AGD's going out of business anyway. Keep on shooting, suckas.

Are you willing to put money on that...

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by ddindc
Neal, I can't say a smile came with this conversation. What "idependent" data have you presented?

I cant help it if you cant read... As I have stated it was an edit on one of my previous posts on page 3 midway down.


I guess ill have to post it again.

http://www.pbstar.com/randebtherre.html

http://www.pbstar.com/semiauto1.html Compare them they are largely the SAME.

[ddindc]

No Neal, I just said it to piss you off. I know its not true...for now

[rudy]

Rudy, i this is true, then why do pros chose cockers over mags?

There are several reasons why. One is marketing and sponsors. we all know AGD needs some help in marketing. And sponsoring is hard thing to do when you are trying to pick an upstanding team that wont give you a bad rep and still win. The first time I remembered this was when fusion rigged a tourney. It does not look good on a company.

Accuracy, is non existent as far as I have ever been able to determine. what is it then? well some people are not very steady hands and its hard for them to keep a gun that kicks like an angel or a mag on target as well as a front heavy slow kicking gun like a cocker. Why do sniper rifles have heavy barrels why do people think SS and long barrels are accurate because they slow your movement down and assist you in dealing with kick and noticing small changes in the movent of a gun. Of course all of this I have stated has not been tested because hardly any other companies actually do any type of testing to determine what component of the gun is causing an actual or perceived difference.

You say AGD is slow well since im sure you dont know expirements and research take time and cost money. And if hardly anyone else is doing it then that means AGD has to figure everything out for themself so if you want AGD to hurry up tell the other companies to get off the hype and start doing some research and releasing some public results. Then maybe they can prove some added range or something and I will believe it.


And I'm not interested in a 1 v 1; you sound like the kind of guy that would try and go backdoor on me. I will Thai Box you. Or a Brazilian Ju Jitsu fight. How about that?

Sounds like your backing out to me. Well I dont care for thai boxing except when im in thailand gambling, and I dont like jujitsu either. why dont you quit trying to back out when soemone finally is ready to prove you wrong. show up or shut up. Or maybe we should just keep beating around the bush next it will be an uno match.

[ddindc]

Oh neal, that's not very nice. If I couldn't read, how could we be having this conversation. I think you logic is a bit faulty.

[FaSSt]

Originally posted by rudy
next it will be an uno match.


Don't get him started on what brand of cards "pros" use...

[rudy]

lol

[ddindc]

Come, come, now Ruddy. We all kow why you go to Thialand. The little boys!

[FaSSt]

Originally posted by ddindc
Come, come, now Ruddy. We all kow why you go to Thialand. The little boys!

You seem to have a lot of residual angst over being someone's girlfriend in jail.

[Butterfingers]

From warpig...

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/balistic/closedopen.shtml

[ddindc]

Neal, that's a nice experiment. Too bad it is totally irrelevant to this argument, since they didn't even TEST THE COCKER OR THE MAG! In fact, I would say that their test pool of a whopping 3 markers was entirely to small for an accurate result. On top of this, there was some deviation in distance.

[ddindc]

edited...uncalled for flaming so a warning issued to you - cphilip

[ddindc]

Neal, youmust stop sending me articles, they only prove my point

"Then why does closed bolt marker XXX outperform open bolt marker ZZZ?

That is an entirely different question, as there are many, many more factors to paintgun accuracy than the way the bolt is operated."

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by ddindc
Neal, that's a nice experiment. Too bad it is totally irrelevant to this argument, since they didn't even TEST THE COCKER OR THE MAG! In fact, I would say that their test pool of a whopping 3 markers was entirely to small for an accurate result. On top of this, there was some deviation in distance.

Deviation was explained by the shockers inability to hold a consistent average velocity.

Then again. Somthing is better than NOTHING.

[ddindc]

Well, good night all. And Neal, you lost a $1600 customer. You should learn not to argue with potential customers. Sales 101.

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by ddindc
Thanks DR. How the trigger feel? How low can you shoot the gun? Iheard you need to up the volume a bit

The trigger is very very nice... kind of like a shocker. I'm looking at the new leaf switch kit now, for that angel feel.

I'm running it at around 300 input, the pneus run at around 45 psi.

DR

[ddindc]

Keep me informed on those experiments, Neal buddy. Nighty night

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by ddindc
Neal, youmust stop sending me articles, they only prove my point

"Then why does closed bolt marker XXX outperform open bolt marker ZZZ?

That is an entirely different question, as there are many, many more factors to paintgun accuracy than the way the bolt is operated."

No that proves that you line of reasoning is wrong. A cockers closed bolt has nothing to do with accuracy.

I can tell you what those factors are right now:

They consist of:

1) A consistent velocity

2) Proper paint to barrel matching.

3) Quality Paint.

[FaSSt]

Originally posted by ddindc
I've never been to jail, but F, could you do me a favor and tell your dad to stop calling my house? I think I cuaght him outside my window once. He must have heard good things about me from your mom. Lets stay civil.

Hey, I'm just reciprocating what you started. Unless you can't take what you dish out. But then I heard that you liked taking it?

;)

[ddindc]

edit for same reason. Second warning - cphilip

[FaSSt]

Hey Butterfingers,

You guys did an excellent job of shipping my last order. Off topic, but then this guy was just trolling anyway. I suspect he knows where he is wrong.

[FaSSt]

Originally posted by ddindc
Oh, yeah, taking your sis's cherry, that's true, for sure.

My "sister"'s name is Ralph, and he said that you were tiny ;)

[ddindc]

Again... cphilip

[ddindc]

our sis got a sex change? How rare is that, two in one family. But then again, once she saw how happy you were with yours...

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by Butterfingers


No that proves that you line of reasoning is wrong. A cockers closed bolt has nothing to do with accuracy.

I can tell you what those factors are right now:

They consist of:

1) A consistent velocity

2) Proper paint to barrel matching.

3) Quality Paint.

Again the line you quoted is not proof taking it as proof is a fallacious appeal to ignorance. Did it ever occour to you that those "other factors" he suggests could be in fact be simple perception?

This disproves nothing.

Where is your HARD DATA?



You have not provided me with anything and I continue to smile because of it. ;)

[FaSSt]

Originally posted by ddindc
our sis got a sex change? How rare is that, two in one family. But then again, once she saw how happy you were with yours...

Well, I deify you, so when you got yours I had to get one too... ;)

[ddindc]

Neither have you! You've sent me two studies that are wholly inadiquite. Here's a statement that isn't a fallacy. Youwill never get my money. And I contiue to smile because of that.

[FaSSt]

Just waiting for this thread to get closed...

[paintslinger]

oh yea since i have no evidence on why i shout out that mags suck and cockers rule im gonna stoop down to immature insults...woooo look at me im ddindc. heres a tip GROW UP

yes i hope army or one of the other mods does their job and closes this thread...i've created a monster

[ddindc]

again...:rolleyes: cphilip

[AcemanPB]

man go back to PBnation

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by ddindc
Neither have you! You've sent me two studies that are wholly inadiquite. Here's a statement that isn't a fallacy. Youwill never get my money. And I contiue to smile because of that.

Better than NO STUDIES AT ALL.

I mangaged to find those within 5 minutes of searching the internet. Yes good research takes time, somthing not afforded to me at this moment.

LOL, you think I NEED your money. If you don't buy it sombody else shortly will. Your loss. I laugh cause you will be hard pressed to find the deal we could have gave you. Many can attest the prices we have on our site are only to keep certain people happy.

You know what don't even bother browsing our site. We like to have a customer base that is more mature that what you have indicated in your posts.

[FaSSt]

Originally posted by ddindc
Oh, F, I don't know how to break this to you. I neveer had an opperation. Oh, how embarrassing for you! Not only has it ruined your life, but that of your sister's as well! This is just terrible. I am beside myself . Wait, I have a call. Its your mom! Gotta go and pork her again! That lady has a voracious appetie! But the money's good, so what the hell. See ya

Ah come on, that's the best you can do? The old "mom" standy?

I bet you are smiling not because of Butterfingers not getting your money, but because of the your sweet recollections of your honey Bubba under then romantic glow a 40 Watt prison lightbulb. What fond memories you must have...

[ddindc]

I'm not stupping, just defending. And there will be no end to this argument, as you do not accept my premise, and I don't accept yours. I voiced an opinion about mags, and the cult members came out in droves. Listen, in parting, let me give you this bit of advice. If Tom Kaye tells you there is a space ship waiting for all the members of AO behid the tale of a comet, and that all you have to do is castrate yourself and comit suicide to board it and fly to paradise, don't belive him! Now good day, bakka gaijin.

[FaSSt]

Originally posted by ddindc
Listen, in parting, let me give you this bit of advice. If Tom Kaye tells you there is a space ship waiting for all the members of AO behid the tale of a comet, and that all you have to do is castrate yourself and comit suicide to board it and fly to paradise, don't belive him! Now good day, bakka gaijin.

Gosh darn it, and I even had my black Nike's ready... Later, troll.

[ddindc]

later, F. Tell your mom I want my money or no more boom boom, 'k? :D

[ddindc]

And butterfingers? Dream tonight about all the ways you could have spent the $1600 I was going to drop on a Racegun.

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by ddindc
I'm not stupping, just defending. And there will be no end to this argument, as you do not accept my premise, and I don't accept yours. I voiced an opinion about mags, and the cult members came out in droves. Listen, in parting, let me give you this bit of advice. If Tom Kaye tells you there is a space ship waiting for all the members of AO behid the tale of a comet, and that all you have to do is castrate yourself and comit suicide to board it and fly to paradise, don't belive him! Now good day, bakka gaijin.

I don't accept your arguements because they cannot be linked to an iota of proof. If you present some DATA I will look over it and perhaps have a civil conversation. You have given me noting but speculation and regurgitated marketing lines.

At THE VERY least our arguments make physycal and logical sense.

You wont convince ANYBODY with the babble you have presented.

[FaSSt]

do not stoop to his level - cphilip

[FaSSt]

Originally posted by ddindc
And butterfingers? Dream tonight about all the ways you could have spent the $1600 I was going to drop on a Racegun.

You mean your sugardaddy finally paid you? ;)

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by ddindc
And butterfingers? Dream tonight about all the ways you could have spent the $1600 I was going to drop on a Racegun.

Yep, and you can dream about another place that can give you the racegun for near our cost. Sorry you just don't deserve it, we try to give our customer the best deal but you know I just don't want your business. As I said If you don't buy it sombody else will.

[kutter]

You know, I just went back and read everyone of ddindc's post. It was most enlightening. His behavior since he joined AO can at the best of times be called barely civil, and at the worst of times, he is just plainly an obnoxious brat.

Now I truly believe that dissenting opinions are necessary. All of the truly great discoveries of the world were made by people of disssenting opinions, but they were people of logic and intelligence who applied reason, I don't think I need to go back over Butterfingers better covered attempts to elicit some logic and reson from ddindc.

Now there are at least 2 ways to deal with this.

We can ignore him and he will go away eventually, but just like that little sore in your mouth, its hard not to poke at him, I lack the willpower to do so :D

Or, we can continue to poke holes in his theories with facts and listen to him respond with juvenile attempts to flame family members and their sexual preferences, this is my personal favorite ;)


Given the fact that he has been responsible for the closing of at least one thread, his generaly poor behaviour to date, and his seeming inability to get along with even some of the nicest people on the boards, I wonder if the mods have said anything to him about this?

At first I thought that perhaps he should not be here, but then I realized that every village needs an idiot.

Oh and ddindc, before you go spouting off about my siblings and parents some facts for you. Both parents dead, siblings are, given todays attitudes, very well adjusted and have been happily married to the same woman for 12 years. So bring on the rhetoric, cause I have insomnia tonight and the Crown Royal is flowing.

[einhander619]

This is impressive, how did a chimpanzee with a raging case of Turret's Syndrome learn to type? But seriously, lay off him, guys. I see handicapped people on computers all the time. Sure, he pissed me off for a while. I'd make some jab at his sexuality or something, but it's just not worth the typing. "ddindc," you have succeeded in securing a position as an ironclad jackass, er, a math-flunking teenybopper with a copy of the smartparts catalog in one hand, and daddie's plastic in the other. This is the only time you will hear me address you personally, because nothing you could ever say from this day forward would make me waste any more time on you. I suggest to my fellow AO'ers that you do the same. Whatever you do, don't ban him, but never respond to another one of his posts again. "ddindc," I'll see you on the speedball field. I'll be shooting an RT. Peace.

[MrMag]

ddindc.............look bro, your are not gonna win this one, and frankly...........you are making a fool out of yourself. face it, arguing about this in a mag forum is not the right place. YOU HAVE LOST

[Marek]

Im lookin for a thread that shows a cocker shootin 17 bps. Any of u guys seen one???
Wow, this post went bad real quick huh.

Well, since this is a thread about a cocker shootin 17 bps, all i can say is that is a purty nice gun.

Too bad it couldnt have stayed that way. Oh well, it happens.

[HyperSnyper]

Just popped into this thread and was amazed at how it evolved into such as flameing nightmare.

ddindc, very interesting guy. He has to realise some day that it the scientists in the white jackets and pocket protectors with their degrees in engineering and science that create the technology we will have for the future (thats my path in college right now).

After all, who created all the ferraris and lamborghinis and even angels markers? You think race car drivers and paintball players make them? HAH! Like they even have the slightest clue on compression ratios, correct ignition timing for the cars or even the correct valve dwell and flow dynamics for a marker.

The more and more I read ddindc's posts, the more I understand him to be a mere lemming that follows others. Wants to get a Cocker since more pros use them. He seems to be the kind of person that would pick up and swear by a Brass Eagle Stingray once his favorite team Avalanche or whoever starts using them in the upcoming season.

ddindc, watch a Sprite commercial, you just may learn something...

-Hyper

[cphilip]

Banning ddindc for three days for excessive flaming and vulgar comments. Grow up and learn to argue without petty stupid personal attacks.

[shartley]

Good job Phil.

I have a question…. I thought we had someone watching the door! Who let these kinds of people in? ;)

[kutter]

Oh yeah, by the way I thought the video of the gun was pretty impressive, my expereince with electronic cockers has always been something like this, I see someone with what looks sort of like a cocker but not quite at the field:

Me: Hey man, thats pretty trick, what is that?
Them: Well, when I can get the damn thing to work right its an electronic cocker.
Me: How often does that happen?
Them: Well, it was working perfect last night.
Me: Aw man, thats a bummer, you got another gun?

Now, I like cockers, how can you not, they have had just as much impact on the game as mags have and when they work right, they are a sweet shooting gun. If someone could get the electronics versions working right, well then I say variety is the spice of life. Its just like my father used to say. 'If everyone liked the same thing, someone would get killed in the rush.'

Just my opinions, I could be wrong.

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by kutter
Oh yeah, by the way I thought the video of the gun was pretty impressive, my expereince with electronic cockers has always been something like this, I see someone with what looks sort of like a cocker but not quite at the field:

Me: Hey man, thats pretty trick, what is that?
Them: Well, when I can get the damn thing to work right its an electronic cocker.
Me: How often does that happen?
Them: Well, it was working perfect last night.
Me: Aw man, thats a bummer, you got another gun?

Now, I like cockers, how can you not, they have had just as much impact on the game as mags have and when they work right, they are a sweet shooting gun. If someone could get the electronics versions working right, well then I say variety is the spice of life. Its just like my father used to say. 'If everyone liked the same thing, someone would get killed in the rush.'

Just my opinions, I could be wrong.

Apparently you haven't seen a Racegun then. They work, and work, and work.

Mine has never gone down on me that wasn't my own stupid fault (IE, would have taken ANY gun down).

I suggest you check one out... you'll never see a Racegun owner saying "it worked last night..."

:)
DR

[shartley]

Originally posted by DarkRipper
I suggest you check one out... you'll never see a Racegun owner saying "it worked last night..."

:)
DR
HeeHee You know how easy it would be to twist that to meaning the opposite of what you want it to mean? ;)

[cphilip]

Originally posted by DarkRipper
...Mine has never gone down on me

Well this one too! ;) So what the point? :D

[JEDI]

What ever happened to doing something simply because you could. That video was very cool, and for some reason it sparks a whole "why would you do that" issue. I'm sure paint slinger wasn't trying to sell the use of racegun cockers. The same as AGD isn't telling us to run out and get modified full auto Emags with halos. But the video is damn cool. I bought an RT pro, cause I really wanted one for some time. two weeks later I had a pay check and no bills to pay, so on a whim went out and got an Emag which I love.
Now The Emag has the function of 2 guns in one, but who's gonna argue that Two guns isnt much cooler.

[Top Secret]

I don't think we are really the "why would you do/need that?" crowd here.

Emagnum, HALO B tests

nuff said.

:D

[JEDI]

Exactly man! Thats my point. Invention and all that is cool is fueled by "just Because" & "Lets see what would happen if..." If everything had to make sense or serve a practical purpose, there would be no fun. If I posted a video of a full auto paint grenade launcher what would be the point of identifying its practical use or financial feasability? WHO CARES! Its cool.

[Vern1]

Greetings,

Apparently you haven't seen a Racegun then. They work, and work, and work.
Yeah, right up until they quit.

It's usually something stupid(self induced) like:
Forgot to charge it and the battery ran down in TWO DAYS!
Or you dry fired it until it shook the valve retaining nut out and completely destroyed the body.
Or the keypad quit working for no reason what-so-ever until you unplug and re-plug the battery.

When they work, they do work like magic.
When they don't - they don't - just like any other broken marker.
For the most part, they work and are fairly reliable.
Just use lots of locktite - preferably red.
From a purely mechanical standpoint, they are a beauty to behold with all that stuff wizzing around in sync.

Back to the video: Cool video, but full auto is LAME!
I mean, it's cool to show the capabilities of a marker or hopper, but show us something we, the average player, can really use on a field or tourney - semi auto, one shot, one pull - not someone just holding the trigger down.

As for accuracy/trajectory I offer this tidbit, I don't think it has been approached quite like this before: If you are shooting the same paint thru the same barrel at the same velocity, the TRAJECTORY should be the same, but the accuracy or shot grouping can be very different due to the stability of the launching platform.
Example, I'll use Mags and Cockers as that's what this arguement is about(don't flame me too bad!!):
Cockers use a tight fitting threadded barrel on a heavier, more stable platform.
Most Mags use a slip fit barrel with play - side to side and up and down and are generally lighter or less stable.
That may be part of the answer to the Cocker/Mag accuracy issues.
These are opinions based on observations and have absolutely no scientific backup, so don't beat me up with physics lessons.
As for the RaceGrip, I have owned a few and installed and tuned quite a few more on various markers from stock to heavily modified and they do quit just like anything else.

Thanks for reading....

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by Vern1

As for the RaceGrip, I have owned a few and installed and tuned quite a few more on various markers from stock to heavily modified and they do quit just like anything else.

Thanks for reading....

Congratulations.

My experience is exactly the opposite. Where does that put us? Nowhere.

I'm not saying raceguns are better than mags, I'm just saying that they aren't like the old e-cockers that had a justified reputation for not being reliable. I'm sure there are lemons. Thank you for pointing this out.

Thank you for also totally missing the point of what I was saying. I guess in your rush to naysay me you missed it. Whatever. I'm used to it online by now.

:rolleyes:

DR

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by cphilip


Well this one too! ;) So what the point? :D

I don't get it.

:)
DR

[Marek]

DarkRipper,
I don't think that Vern1 was posting directly to you. To me, it seemed as if he was stating what he has experienced using/fixing up guns. Its just a different point of view to shed some light on the subject. Might be right, might be wrong. Dont think its an attack on u or ur gun tho.

[kutter]

Vern1, your logic behind the accuracy of a barrel which screws in vs. one that has a twist lock fitting could make sense, assuming that the twist lock suffered some play, even a small amout would make a difference. But by that same argument then a Micromag or Extreme/SFL would be just as accurate since they have cocker threading? Besides I know that on my Micro and my SFL both after a game of really hammering on the trigger the barrel will frequently be a little loose, I refuse to just crank down on it since the barrel is stainless and the bodies aluminum.

Personally calling a paintball accurate is something of a misnomer, it is for all prectical purposes, a water balloon, and will behave like one. It distorts as it moves, does not have even close to perfect symetry, and it is filled, completely we hope, with a liquid. Of course the argument was never really about accuracy, but distance, and I think its safe to say that its been debunked.

But I agree with all you about doing it just for the sake of doing it. Sometimes its just plain fun to see what happens, and the results are at times more than you could hope for. Just ask Carol Shelby :D

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by Vern1
Greetings,

Yeah, right up until they quit.

It's usually something stupid(self induced) like:
Forgot to charge it and the battery ran down in TWO DAYS!
Or you dry fired it until it shook the valve retaining nut out and completely destroyed the body.
Or the keypad quit working for no reason what-so-ever until you unplug and re-plug the battery.

When they work, they do work like magic.
When they don't - they don't - just like any other broken marker.
For the most part, they work and are fairly reliable.
Just use lots of locktite - preferably red.
From a purely mechanical standpoint, they are a beauty to behold with all that stuff wizzing around in sync.

Back to the video: Cool video, but full auto is LAME!
I mean, it's cool to show the capabilities of a marker or hopper, but show us something we, the average player, can really use on a field or tourney - semi auto, one shot, one pull - not someone just holding the trigger down.

As for accuracy/trajectory I offer this tidbit, I don't think it has been approached quite like this before: If you are shooting the same paint thru the same barrel at the same velocity, the TRAJECTORY should be the same, but the accuracy or shot grouping can be very different due to the stability of the launching platform.
Example, I'll use Mags and Cockers as that's what this arguement is about(don't flame me too bad!!):
Cockers use a tight fitting threadded barrel on a heavier, more stable platform.
Most Mags use a slip fit barrel with play - side to side and up and down and are generally lighter or less stable.
That may be part of the answer to the Cocker/Mag accuracy issues.
These are opinions based on observations and have absolutely no scientific backup, so don't beat me up with physics lessons.
As for the RaceGrip, I have owned a few and installed and tuned quite a few more on various markers from stock to heavily modified and they do quit just like anything else.

Thanks for reading....

I can see where you are coming from but if you take the sin of the angle of deviance in respect to a given range in a given mag barrel the maximum mathmatical deviation will be only a few inches at 50 yards. Most people are hindered by orders of magnitude more by thier ability to aim.

A say a .25 degree variance in the play of a loosely fitting mag barrel without o-rings.

50 Sin(.25)= .47 yrds (about 7 inches) at the max effective range of the paintball gun.

With o-rings the barrel does not move significantly at all. One can expect the deviation to be negliagable.

[netjunk1e]

Originally posted by Butterfingers




A say a .25 degree variance in the play of a loosely fitting mag barrel without o-rings.

50 Sin(.25)= .47 yrds (about 7 inches) at the max effective range of the paintball gun.

With o-rings the barrel does not move significantly at all. One can expect the deviation to be negliagable.

Yahoo! Someone actually used data to back up thier point in this thread! Good job. Im sure glad that guy got banned too(but why tempory! i really don't like him). Well thanks for the logic, it really makes sence now.

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by Marek
DarkRipper,
I don't think that Vern1 was posting directly to you. To me, it seemed as if he was stating what he has experienced using/fixing up guns. Its just a different point of view to shed some light on the subject. Might be right, might be wrong. Dont think its an attack on u or ur gun tho.

It's possible.. I was a bit grumpy when I posted that. Apologies all around.

DR

[kutter]

A say a .25 degree variance in the play of a loosely fitting mag barrel without o-rings.

Butterfingers please take this in the nicest way but, YOU ARE A GEEK! But I still hold you in the highest regard :D

Oh and regarding ddindc's little comment about you using leaches on him for medical practices, well I guess he is not aware that they are still used today. As I recall in amputations to encourage bloodflow to the lost limb, but its just something I read somewhere so I cold be wrong.

[obsolete898]

^^^ you would be correct. We also use maggots on sores that will not heal. Maggots only eat dead flesh.

There was a show on discovery about animals in medicine. The worst part was this guy who had diabetes. He had a sore on his foot that would not heal, so they did a maggot treatment. Seeing maggots in a fresh foot sore is vile and disgusting. It helped heal his sore.:)

[Marek]

A say a .25 degree variance in the play of a loosely fitting mag barrel without o-rings.

50 Sin(.25)= .47 yrds (about 7 inches) at the max effective range of the paintball gun.

With o-rings the barrel does not move significantly at all. One can expect the deviation to be negliagable.


Huh? Guess thats the reason y I went to music school...

[Army]

Well, we don't edit, warn, or ban members for being as stupid as ddindc, so I let it ride for a while. But I looked away too long and the fireballs were flying! Thanks for catching this one Phil:)

[Lone Brain Cell]

So....Do we all expect to see this moron in the news in the next few day walking into a Post office!

I tellya, The thing about having as big a population as the States is these types seem to be out in force.

Dont get me wrong, we have em here too, but as soon as we see signs of what I have read tonight, we take em fishing for white pointers the boat is heaps lighter when we return and the world is a better place for it too!;)

[Vern1]

Greetings,
I am not offended or put off by anyones opinion.
Just like mine, they are opinions.

I do try to look at the big picture and am always open to other folks ideas, opinions and real hard data. I love shooting different kinds of markers. You never know when you will find one YOU LIKE better!
I really want to try the Capos E-Mag!

I am not slamming the RaceGun, they are one of the better E-Frames out there. I just don't think the STOCK cocker was desiged for the stress that is put on it by the very fast movement of the parts and the resulting harmonics induced into the body and attached parts. Put them together with lots of locktite and they will usually live, but there is no substitute for MAINTENANCE. If you read the post, notice I said MOSTLY SELF INDUCED problems and lack of maintenance falls into that catagory as does abusing the marker by dry firing it until it comes apart. Yes, I have actually seen this happen a few times. Since I am the tech that put the grip on and then have to repair it, I HAVE SEEN IT.

As for Mags, no I don't presently use one. I have owned a few and I have also owned Spyders, Cockers, Bushies, Defiants, Angels, Rebels, Sheridans, and the list goes on and on. Does that make me any better than anyone else? NO, I just have a little experience with them. I won't try to gloss over a turd if I have tried it and it was not up to par, but at the same time, if I haven't tested to tried something, I will tell you that, too.

What do I shoot?
Generally Intimidators - OK, go ahead and slam me all you want for that. But, they work for me until I find something I THINK is better. But what I THINK is just an opinion also and solely mine.

As for the opinion on accuracy/range, that was just an opinion thrown out there for the collective think tanks to analize and chop up - I also said MOST MAGs have twist lock barrels, not all of them, but the twist lock is what the majority of folks use.

The problem with that .25 degree of freedom is most folks shoot, then compensate by moving the marker. If it shoots 2 inches to the left on the first shot, they MOVE 2 inches to the right, then suppose the barrel moves that .25 degrees to the right, now you are hitting 4 inches to the right of the first shot, so they over-compensate to the left.
This can bring new meaning to the term Hunting for the target. Again, this is just an opinion and I really like a non-threatening DISCUSSION of different folks experiences.

It is hard to not be biased, but I really, really try.

Thanks for reading - Let's play some paintball - THAT'S what it is all about!

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by ddindc
I'm not stupping, just defending. And there will be no end to this argument, as you do not accept my premise, and I don't accept yours. I voiced an opinion about mags, and the cult members came out in droves. Listen, in parting, let me give you this bit of advice. If Tom Kaye tells you there is a space ship waiting for all the members of AO behid the tale of a comet, and that all you have to do is castrate yourself and comit suicide to board it and fly to paradise, don't belive him! Now good day, bakka gaijin.

You spelled baka gaijin wrong! hahahahaha... I just noticed that. Move on.

[314159]

i started reading this thread, and stopped about half way through because it was making me sick. i feel sorry for WhoDaresPlay hosting a angel forum on a mostly mag board.

there is a lot more to your game than the marker that you shoot.

[joeyjoe367]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
yes..but you see my point...i don't know why people waste their time engineering stupid stuff like this...what they should do is take all their engineering know how and go build their own marker from the ground up with this kind of technology...

OMG! SOoooOOoOoOoOo TRUE!

[Butterfingers]

Vern,

ALL discussions are welcome here on AO as long as you have relevant points to back up your claims. Which you do. You make good points.

Logical discussion makes people think and consider other points of view which is also a very good thing. You seem like a person who knows what he is talking about and that is always welcome on AO.

Being biased is ok in fact it is at some times even encouraged as long as the arguement is structured in a manner that is non-inflamatory and logically sound.

So please don't feel like you are part of the out crowd. You are not threatening us and we pose no threat to you. You are just as welcome as all of us auto-maggots :)

This goes for everybody.


Back to the barrel discussion. :)

While your point is sound. The expression stated predicts the extreme deviation. Given a tight fitting barrel and o-rings the barrel does not deviate at all. It wiggles no more than a threaded barrel.




Originally posted by Vern1
Greetings,
I am not offended or put off by anyones opinion.
Just like mine, they are opinions.

I do try to look at the big picture and am always open to other folks ideas, opinions and real hard data. I love shooting different kinds of markers. You never know when you will find one YOU LIKE better!
I really want to try the Capos E-Mag!

I am not slamming the RaceGun, they are one of the better E-Frames out there. I just don't think the STOCK cocker was desiged for the stress that is put on it by the very fast movement of the parts and the resulting harmonics induced into the body and attached parts. Put them together with lots of locktite and they will usually live, but there is no substitute for MAINTENANCE. If you read the post, notice I said MOSTLY SELF INDUCED problems and lack of maintenance falls into that catagory as does abusing the marker by dry firing it until it comes apart. Yes, I have actually seen this happen a few times. Since I am the tech that put the grip on and then have to repair it, I HAVE SEEN IT.

As for Mags, no I don't presently use one. I have owned a few and I have also owned Spyders, Cockers, Bushies, Defiants, Angels, Rebels, Sheridans, and the list goes on and on. Does that make me any better than anyone else? NO, I just have a little experience with them. I won't try to gloss over a turd if I have tried it and it was not up to par, but at the same time, if I haven't tested to tried something, I will tell you that, too.

What do I shoot?
Generally Intimidators - OK, go ahead and slam me all you want for that. But, they work for me until I find something I THINK is better. But what I THINK is just an opinion also and solely mine.

As for the opinion on accuracy/range, that was just an opinion thrown out there for the collective think tanks to analize and chop up - I also said MOST MAGs have twist lock barrels, not all of them, but the twist lock is what the majority of folks use.

The problem with that .25 degree of freedom is most folks shoot, then compensate by moving the marker. If it shoots 2 inches to the left on the first shot, they MOVE 2 inches to the right, then suppose the barrel moves that .25 degrees to the right, now you are hitting 4 inches to the right of the first shot, so they over-compensate to the left.
This can bring new meaning to the term Hunting for the target. Again, this is just an opinion and I really like a non-threatening DISCUSSION of different folks experiences.

It is hard to not be biased, but I really, really try.

Thanks for reading - Let's play some paintball - THAT'S what it is all about!

[lillfroboy]

i want it

[wrex69]

well,
that was really entertianing. the most entertianing thread I have ever read on this board. I love my mag but I hate my teamates mag. I love my other teamates angel. but could not part with that kind of loots$$$ if it works shoot it. I think mags turn the girls on more though:D

[Vern1]

Greetings,
I view a good discussion as a learning experience!
Argueing just gets your blood pressure up and can ruin your day, so why bother?

Butterfingers wrote:

While your point is sound. The expression stated predicts the extreme deviation. Given a tight fitting barrel and o-rings the barrel does not deviate at all. It wiggles no more than a threaded barrel.

To reply to the quote above, yes, that example was the extreme deviation, but it can and does happen.
From my experience(I don't see a lot of NEW Mags, mostly very well used ones!), there is a lot more movement with the twistlock barrel than a threadded one.
Put one in a vise - not too tight so as to squeeze the body and artificially tighten up the fit - and put a dial indicator on the end of the barrel (at a predetermined distance to make all things as equal as possible) and wiggle it back and forth.
There is quite a lot of movement when you do this.
The dial actually goes all over the place.
The threadded barrel to body interface doesn't exhibit ANYWHERE NEAR the same amount of deflection.
Now, we were also not wrenching on the barrel, just pushing it to the stops at the end of travel with GENTLE finger pressure.
We also tried to stay a equal distance from the breech.
On the Mag, we used the middle of the two o-rings for a starting or pivot point and went out 12 inches as a measureing point for the dial indicator. (using a 14" barrel)
On the threadded ones, we used the threads as the starting point (again with a 14" barrel).
We chose this length because we could use 12 inches or one foot to ease calculations.....calcualtions, we donn neeed no stinkin' calculations - LOL!!

I have also read on here somewhere that there was enough movement in a barrel that when the person using a Level 10 bolt was laying their barrel up against a bunker and shooting, it would not have enough initial movement past the bleeder hole to fire the marker as the bolt was hitting the barrel on the inside.
If it moves enough to not fire, that is way too much movement.
One other thing to consider with these markers (The ones I was checking): There is no telling how old they were, how much they were abused and how tight the barrel to body fit really was, BUT YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER THAT ALSO!

And yeah, that RaceGun Cocker video is impressive!

[Butterfingers]

Yes, my barrel has moved to the point when heavy pressure is applied the gun won't fire with a level 10. I actually whooped out the file and tapered the inside of my barrel :)

Im testing the barrel wiggle bolt catch consistency theory right now and it seems to be working out. Seemingly some barrels are undersized for mag bolts and catch the bolt on the forward motion. With the stock bolt and an unmodified barrel I was getting readings +/- 30 fps or more. This was unacceptable. When I changed to my shaved down and more lubricous delrin superbolt 1, the consistnecy tightened up to +/-5

Then I recently noticed when I got the level 10 that sometimes the gun dosent fire at all. After the taper and polish job... Now it fires all the time, and more consistently too 245, 244, 244, 245 last time I was out.

Hmm there may be a factor more than wiggle in a twist lock system that effects accuracy...