Cocker Accuracy

[MagmanLee]

Why do ppl think that cocker are so accurate?:confused: i never notice more accuracy of mine or any other of my friends cockers w/ the same kinda barrel as my mag. Do the fact that it was a pump and a closed bolt gun make ppl automatically think it's more accurate even when it's not? Is it because it's got 2 regs on the gun(xcluding the n2 tank reg)?

[AcemanPB]

HYPE

some of my friends are CERTIAN that autocockers shoot more accuratley than any other gun but of course they are wrong

here is what i think


pump marker closed bolt = accurate (only because with a pump marker you AIM)

autocoker closed bolt like pump so it must be accurate (yeah if you AIM)

[RT_Luver]

propaganda. if Tom wanted to sell more mags and was going to stoop to WGP's and WDP's lvl he might say something like the RT PRO was FULLY capable of firing 26bps which ISN'T tru, but would it sell the gun. YES. a log time ago the rumor was started that cocker shot farther and straighter, now I'm not a cocker fanatic and I dont keep track of everything that Bud Orr says, and to MY knowledge I dont believe he has ever straintened this rumor out and him. why, who knows. but it ISN'T TRUE and does it sell the gun more YES. I bet you that if you ask some of the ppl that JUST got cockers why they got it, they'll say 'because it shoots farther and more accurate then any other gun". I betcha

[davidb]

I have one friend who owns a Cocker. Very level-headed, and can't stand it when people give the whole "range and accuracy" spiel.

I think that it comes from people carrying over principles of firearms that simply don't apply to paintball. Does closed-bolt generally mean increased range and accuracy? Absolutely! UNLESS you're talking about paintball guns. For obvious reasons, closed bolt guns (as in... guns, not markers) generally get higher velocity than open bolt ones firing similar rounds, resulting, naturally, in more accuracy and range. Now, if you had an Automag firing at 300 fps and a Cocker at 500 fps (scary thought) then of course the myths would come true. However, the speed limit that has thankfully been placed on paintballs sets a definite range and accuracy limit that is pretty well set in stone until something drastic changes.

The same thing applies for long barrels. A long barreled gun gets higher velocity, therefore better performance.

The problem lies in the fact that people make the association directly from closed bolt to accurate, or longer barrel to accurate, forgetting the crucial third part of the equation, increased velocity.

[Brian68mag]

once at a chrono area people were seeing how high there guns could go(of course we werent playing after this lol" and a guy got his cocker up to 480 without probs.
holy <B>cow</B> could it shoot far.

[DarkRipper]

I'm more accurate with my cocker than I was with my emag.

Is it the gun? I dunno. I know what I shoot now though.

Doesn't mean that a cocker will shoot farther for you, but it does for me.

It's the player, guys. Shoot what you're comfortable with and skip the hype.

DR

[Evil Bob]

Guys and Gals...

Hate to bust your theories, but all markers fire from a closed bolt position whether the firing process starts from open or closed bolt.

Just like real world weapons, all fire from a closed bolt chamber position. The resulting pressure from expanding air or expanding explosives requires that the chamber be closed in order to propel the projectile toward it's intended target. If the chamber is not closed when the gas is released or the explosive detonated, will result in the energy generated to drive the projectile down the barrel being mostly wasted out the back end of the marker.

The whole open bolt/closed bolt debate has to deal with the ammount of time required to fire the marker (what's a few miliseconds anyway?) as well as accuracy issues from the bolt having to slam forward (recoil) prior to firing. Today's markers cycle so quickly that the whole open/closed bolt debate is simply pointless.

-Evil Bob

[TRIAD]

It makes you look dumb when you say things like stooping to WGP and WDP's level. This just shows how ignorant you are, thinking your gun and company are the best while everything else it crap. And open bolt and closed bolt does matter. Sure, both fire from a closed position, but there is a difference. The open bolt needs a loose bore size, the closed bolt needs a tight so the ball won't roll out when the bolt is closed and ready to fire. And, the open bolt must "slam" into the ball to fire it, which can break more balls, decrease accuracy, increased recoil, and with the open bolt, the ball detent pushes the ball against the gun, which can decrease accuracy. Now, they are both fine methods, but I would prefer a closed bolt to open bolt any day. Also, IMO, 'cockers (which of course are closed bolt), have the neatest way of firing which can make any person say "wow". Sure, you say performance is what I'm looking for, but also everyone anno's their gun or makes everything one color, so this just adds to that "neat" look.

[AcemanPB]

Originally posted by TRIAD
And, the open bolt must "slam" into the ball to fire it, which can break more balls, decrease accuracy, increased recoil, and with the open bolt, the ball detent pushes the ball against the gun, which can decrease accuracy. Now, they are both fine methods, but I would prefer a closed bolt to open bolt any day.



how does it decrease accuracy i'm confused? my physics books says same paint to barrel batch same FPS = SAME trajectoty

no flame just seeing if i'm missing something :)

[mykroft]

Simply put, it's very consistent out of the box, and teh configuration of the marker tricks your eye to think it's shooting flatter.

For the $$ a stock cocker is just about the most consistent marker you can buy, +/- 5fps isn't uncommon out of the box with a preset, +/- 10 with CO2.

Consistency & paint/barrel match=accuracy, as long as the player has decent aim.

[RRfireblade]

Holy Crap !

I'm getting out of here before it starts again.

Wait.......There's no difference in accuracy between open and closed bolt firing mechanisms!

(lights fuse and runs for the door)

YEEE HAAAAA ! ! ! ! ...................

[AcemanPB]

i had to run my mag off co2 once and got +/- 4 on the chrono and it was stock besides the drop foward and x chamber :) , i'm trying to start a flame war just saying i have yet to seen proof that closed bolt has any performance advantages

[nutz]

people can think what they want to think. i suggest reading this article. It may sway some of your views.

Overview Of Fluid Dynamics Applied To The Ballistic Characteristics (http://ijughead.tzo.com/sa00slack/ballistics.htm)

:)

[blackmag3]

so if i take a stingray 2 and rig it to shoot in a closed bolt style it will magically shoot farther and more accurately? i don't think so. check warpig they used a stingray 2 modified to be closed bolt and it preformed the exact same as when it was open bolt. and don't go and say oh thats just a stingray it sucks to begin with. do the same with a syder or model 98 and the results will be the same.

[RRfireblade]

That article does nothing but make huge broad assumptions on everything that happens inside a marker.For instance laminar flow in a garden hose is only sustained because of continious force behind the stream which is not a function of a marker regardless of operation pressure.Also any porting or stepping of the bore will also destroy any theory of air airflow after the exit of the paintball.It's not really that complicated.I have as have others simply fired different markers with identical barrels and paint over a crono and so far have found there to be no measerable differnce in range or accuracy for a given velocity.It's not like it's a difficult test,if there was any reason to believe otherwise don't you think it would have been proven like 15 or 20 years ago?

For all dis-believers out there, go try it and come back when you have any documentable proof,I'm sure the whole paintball world will gladly pay billions a dollars to see any scientific fact to prove otherwise.

Jay.

[mykroft]

Easiest way is to compare an Excalibur & a Viking. Same basic design, one's open-bolt, ones closed. Guess what, unless you mucked up the design, it's going to be about identical.

[TRIAD]

First off, I didn't say it would shoot further, so read what I say, I said more accurately. Now, the closed bolt is a better design than open bolt. Why do you think a lot of pros shoot cockers? Because it looks cool (which it does)? NO, because there is a performance issue, with cockers being lp, closed bolt, quiet, NO ball breakage when properly set up, etc. Now, the closed bolt agitates the ball less, has a lower recocking, therefore, when the bolt is coming back to make contact with the ball, it is hitting the ball with MAYBE 75 psi, MAYBE. This is the only time the bolt is "hitting" the ball, when the gun is firing, the bolt is moving away. Now, in blowback, the force of the bolt hitting the ball is what is needed to fire, i don't care if it has lvl 10 or not, the bolt is still hitting the ball harder, the ball is being nudged against the side of the breach with one or more detents, and so there is room for more breakage and less accuracy. And once again, sure I'm no expert at the firing methods, but when a lot of pros use cockers, that says one thing, They have performance where it's needed. If closed bolt is no different from open bolt blowback, the pros would shoot the latter, but instead they consistently prefer the former.

[InfinatyBPS]

Well, after you release the trigger on a cocker what happens?:D Exactly the bolt comes back and smacks the ball into the barrel... Just like a open bolt:rolleyes:

[SSMercury]

Gah, drawn into the war, I'm taking a side. Thanks TRIAD for doing that.


TRIAD, sorry but you sound rather foolish just from what I'm reading. Sorry man, just the way things are to me.

Quote from you: Also, IMO, 'cockers (which of course are closed bolt), have the neatest way of firing which can make any person say "wow"."

Relevance? It takes a lot to "'wow'" me.

Quote: NO, because there is a performance issue, with cockers being lp, closed bolt, quiet, NO ball breakage when properly set up, etc.

lp= disproven to mean a thing in regards to matters with that chambered paintball. Airsmith proven

closed bolt=the point of the arguement

quiet= does it matter? People screaming, yelling codes, running around. This ain't woods play usually, what you want quiet for?

Ball breakage=too many factors to even think about. I wouldn't be surprised if in 20 years they figure out that our very MINDS had an effect on those little balls. Barrel/paint match, paint quality/age, and god knows what else.

Quote: Now, in blowback, the force of the bolt hitting the ball is what is needed to fire

Are you saying I need the bolt to touch a paintball to fire? Wrong.

Quote: And once again, sure I'm no expert at the firing methods, but when a lot of pros use cockers, that says one thing

Several actually

1. You try imitating the pros, nothing wrong with this. Copying is learning.
2. Pros like autocockers. Ask them why they chose them, see if you get a straight answer. I'm sure you can e-mail famed ones somewhere on the internet. My guess is that it's peer/sponsor pressure. Where it isn't that, I'd say it's what they've been used to for X years and don't want to switch due to feel. Where it isn't those, I'd say because of visual customization. After those, I'd say technical customization. After all that, I'd say they'd say because of closed/open bolt

Quote: If closed bolt is no different from open bolt blowback, the pros would shoot the latter, but instead they consistently prefer the former.

Consistently? Wrong

Go to WARPIG. Read their article upon making a fair closed bolt/open bolt comparison



Rest of you lot, would you PLEASE say WHICH side you're arguing for in your replies? Some of you seem to be arguing the exact same words. I can't tell what side you're arguing for. Notably nutz. You in favor of open or closed bolt?

Evilbob and Darkripper are both right. Darkripper says shoot what you 're comfortable with, screw everyone else's opinion. Not to mention Evilbob's point that the guns of today cycle so fast that it doesn't matter.

[FutureMagOwner]

im in favor of both being the same:

the concept of cocker being more accurate camefrom the lack of a detent on cockers. we(i have a cocker) dont ahve a detent so we have to get a better fit so balls dont slide out the barrel. that resulted in more accuracy which was attributed to the closed bolt. because the pre-paintbarrel match era beleived this(which they had every right to because they didnt know anybetter) but we dont because it comes down to only 2 things in accuracy: paint and barrel match; and marker consistancy(there are other outside factors you cant control but these 2 are the ones you can control sorta) i think the paint and barrel match has been discussed enough and beyond but noone mentions consistancy. consistancy of your velocity affects accuracy on a vertical scale(or for you geometry lovers the y axis) if your gun shoots consistantly 300 fps and you have a good paint and barrel match, in theroy you have balls hitting balls(not including outside factors such as wind and your accuracy or a clamps steadyness). now if you have a gun shooting horible with +/-40fps you can aim at something have it one shot hitthe ground 10-20 ft in front of him and then have it go flying off over his head or whacking him in the face(or somewhere else) at over 300 fps and anywhere in between.


remeber consistancy, paint and barrel, your self, and everything else effects where that ball is gunna go

[hostage]

dang we need a physisist

[z-zero]

I've owned both a cocker and a mag. I've found my mag to be more consistant with CA then my cocker was. My cocker ran better on c02 then my mag would. Stock minimag and my stock 2k cocker shot the same distance when set to the same velocity using the same paint. I can shoot faster with my mag, I did'nt chop with either one of them when I was ripping. My mag is easier to take care of, not that my cocker broke at all. One is open bolt and the other is closed, big deal there are so many other differences that the whole bolt thing is trivial. Its all preference and I'm tired of all the crap that people talk up about mags vs cockers or emags vs angels, go buy a gun you like and play, there is really only one major controlling factor to winning
a game and that consists of the guys behind the markers, I've seen guys with pumps take out multiple semi shooters in one game, was it the gun? no it was that the guy with the pump played smart and the guy with the semi under-estimated his opponent. Paintball is played by players not by equipment, so why put such a high priority on tools or how they work? The only reason there is any of this is because companies want to make money, not because companies want to create better players. If companies wanted to create better players there would be books and manuals and video training courses on how to be a better player, but because we the silly consumer worry more about which gun we own then how we play, they cater to the masses. Paintball is a sport played as a competition not as a product display. Display your skills not your gun!

z-zero:eek:

[cphilip]

Describing any round glob of goo traveling at 300 feet per second as "accurate" is the problem... :D

[z-zero]

LOL thats pretty funny!!:D

z-zero

[nutz]

SSMercury- I am not in favor of either side. Id consider myself neutral in this one. I shot what feels good to me and what i like to shoot. I dont follow hype, sure i try stuff and i find the good and the bad but i really pick what i shoot on how it feels and things i like about it. The way i can do this is because between me and my friends we have owned nearly every type of gun except a excal, viking and shocker. So i cant say much about those guns but i am very knowledgeable about others and thats where i pick my guns.

I have little knowledge on physics as do most people on the board so i choose not to argue. As someone said before, there are probably so many factors in how guns shoot that it is possible for one to shot more accurate than others and it shows how little we really know about how things happen and why. The reason that article had so many assumptions is because we know so little about many things. I am doubtfull that any one on these board can actually explain some of the reasons that cockers shoot more accurately or vice versa.

[FutureMagOwner]

yeah i dont know much physics beyong what goes up must come down but it seems like common sense with these things

[dre1919]

Originally posted by nutz
SSMercury- I am not in favor of either side. Id consider myself neutral in this one. I shot what feels good to me and what i like to shoot. I dont follow hype, sure i try stuff and i find the good and the bad but i really pick what i shoot on how it feels and things i like about it. The way i can do this is because between me and my friends we have owned nearly every type of gun except a excal, viking and shocker. So i cant say much about those guns but i am very knowledgeable about others and thats where i pick my guns.

I have little knowledge on physics as do most people on the board so i choose not to argue. As someone said before, there are probably so many factors in how guns shoot that it is possible for one to shot more accurate than others and it shows how little we really know about how things happen and why. The reason that article had so many assumptions is because we know so little about many things. I am doubtfull that any one on these board can actually explain some of the reasons that cockers shoot more accurately or vice versa.

I agree, except I'll take the Mag side. My reason? Simplicity. I consider myself to be pretty knowledgeable about most markers in a general sense and quite informed in the case of Mags. This was by my own choice. Years ago, when the Mag versus Cocker debate was in it's prime and you chose one of the two when buying a good "high level" marker I did a lot of research and chose Airgun. I did this because I didn't buy into the hype of which one shot farther or more accurate, I chose Mags becuase they have fewer parts than the Cocker and because you can run them over with a car and still have it work. IMHO, fewer parts equal less things to fix/replace. KISS method: Keep it simple stupid. I think that both the Cocker and Mag are excellent guns, and the differences in performance are minute in reality and grandiose in people's heads. Honestly, if the Cocker way of internal operation was the best shooting, most accurate way on the planet wouldn't the other manufacturers have just copied it to a "T" by now?

I think it's naive to think that just becuase the pros use something it must be the best. (not trying to flame or insult, just stating) A lot of the time, these guys use what their sponsored by or paid to use. You think a pro player wearing a DYE jersey bought that jersey because it's micro weaved fibers cool him in a way the other jersey manufacturers don't know about? Look he's got nine friends who all think alike!:rolleyes: No, he's wearing it because he got it for free. AGD doesn't sponsor near the amount of teams WDP and WGP do, so you don't see the Mags there. Plus, when you throw in a good ol' fashioned amount of rumors by people who aren't qualified enough to know, then you get results like that.

I agree with cphil, when were talking about propelling a semi-stable balloon of liquid you aren't going to see a huge amount of difference from one marker to another. I feel what really effects the way markers shoot is the other non-operation issues such as paint/barrel match and velocity consistancy (as was stated above). It's too bad a lot of people do buy markers because of what they hear instead of what they investigate themselves.:)

[nutz]

yea do u think paint markers were designed around the theories of shooting the paintballs best or getting the ball out the barrel at 300 fps.

[paintbattler]

ppl just ssay that becuz they think it is funny..i guess..i think my mag is 10 times better than a cocker

[Nitroduck]

Originally posted by mykroft
Simply put, it's very consistent out of the box, and teh configuration of the marker tricks your eye to think it's shooting flatter.

For the $$ a stock cocker is just about the most consistent marker you can buy, +/- 5fps isn't uncommon out of the box with a preset, +/- 10 with CO2.

Consistency & paint/barrel match=accuracy, as long as the player has decent aim.

a 5th gen bm2k out of the box with preset n2 gets +/- 3fps.



Higher end guns are usually more consistant.

Having said this , here's my lil thing about open and closed bolt guns.

I've owned 3 bushmasters ,1 angel, 1 mag and a few other open bolts. I've also owned about 6 autocockers, and 2 shockers. I've found there to be very little accuracy differance if any between my open bolt and closed bolt guns.

[rudy]

I have been through this debate for years and I have several issues. I believe need testing. In paintball actual scientific test are rare and people really seem to shy away from them. they need to be done by independant people there is soon to come some regulator testing finally from an independant person that I think will be interesting.

Here is my problem with this cocker accuracy debate. How could a somethign completely false continue to thrive. I have talked to pros my self about this issue and many still feel the cocker is more accurate, but all shoot angels due to rate of fire and being sponsored.

We can get most guns to almost close to the same consistency and paint to barrel matches. so I dont think its just that. I think when the gun comes into the hands of the user there are 2 things that cause them to achieve better accuracy in practice. One of these is the balence and weight of the gun notice fast guns are usually lite and by itself back heavy. where more accurate guns like cockers are heavy and front heavy like a rifle it is easier to keep your gun on target.

this is also most likely where longer barrels appear to be more accurate and the same with stainless steel

the other issue is kick I think the kick/recoil of a gun is the biggest factor guns that have a unique slow kick and usually very little kick acheive this. when I shoot my angel and mag it bounces up and I can not very easily keep it aimed a the same spot in a string of shots. now look at guns that many people think are more accurate like shocker, cocker, matrix. all are low pressure bigger guns with a unique cycle.

take a sling shot and get a really tight band and a loose one and see which one is easier to aim and pull the one that is loose if you accelerate the shot slowly over a longer distance. you do not have a kick that is as abrupt and it is easier to keep on target.

anyhow just somethign to think about.

[TRIAD]

I will give in and say it is feel, i love the feel of my cocker, and the speed i can shoot it at, and mags are great too, and open bolt is great. Okay, I will not fight this any more, i just like cockers better, that's all, and a lot of you like mags, end of discussion, and I hope I never fight this again, it IS stupid to fight about it.

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by dre1919

Years ago, when the Mag versus Cocker debate was in it's prime and you chose one of the two when buying a good "high level" marker I did a lot of research and chose Airgun. I did this because I didn't buy into the hype of which one shot farther or more accurate, I chose Mags becuase they have fewer parts than the Cocker and because you can run them over with a car and still have it work. IMHO, fewer parts equal less things to fix/replace. KISS method: Keep it simple stupid. I think that both the Cocker and Mag are excellent guns, and the differences in performance are minute in reality and grandiose in people's heads.
That's exactly the reason I bought a mag back in the day... simpler and less prone to breakage. Current cockers have come a LONG way in reliability...


Honestly, if the Cocker way of internal operation was the best shooting, most accurate way on the planet wouldn't the other manufacturers have just copied it to a "T" by now?


Well, considering there are more clones of the WGP cocker design than there are the AGD mag design (only one pops to mind, the desert fox by ICD) then your argument is sort of moot, isn't it?

:)
Devil's advocate and all that.

DR

[FutureMagOwner]

those arent clones those are mill'ed and a few different part autocockers i dont think i know any retail(meaning made full time by a company) that works like a cocker(pumps itself with nuematics) at this time(maybe im wrong correct me on that


and the desert fox is blow foreward if im not mistaken but completly different in design

[rudy]

well aka makes the revenge adn i think they make every part, the odd thing about cockers they are mostly just milled cockers and soem go as far as makign bodies, but they all really are just cockers. most blowforward guns are the result of attempting to compete with agd, the ls2000, desert fox, equalizer, armson semi, side kick semi, and a european copy of the mag are all based on the blowforward design which was mostlikely an attemp to clone the mag.

on the other hand the cocker is really just a copy off palmers auto cocking system so thier are several other guns that use the same system but for soem reason are rarely associated with the cocker.

what this all comes down to is yes both guns have been copied and modified quite a bit. so i think all arguements on that issue can be dropped. the only difference is to my knowledge agd started the blowforward movement and was the mag was the original. the autococker was not the original it was a copy off of the guns palmer was making

[RRfireblade]

I say forget wasting time on this topic.No one is ever going to change anyone elses opinion.I say go get your Cocker, I got my Mag and lets all go eat pie.

[Snakebite78]

I say forget wasting time on this topic.No one is ever going to change anyone elses opinion.I say go get your Cocker, I got my Mag and lets all go eat pie.

Well put man, well put, PIE TIME!

[nutz]

Originally posted by RRfireblade
I say forget wasting time on this topic.No one is ever going to change anyone elses opinion.I say go get your Cocker, I got my Mag and lets all go eat pie.


That was powerfull
:D

[rudy]

my pie taste better and fills you up faster then your pie

[RRfireblade]

My pie is more accurate than your pie,it goes right in your belly and never gets on your tie.Your pie breaks half the time before you get it off the spoon.Plus,all the Pros eat my pie so it must be the best or else they would be eating someone elses pie.

Finally a topic I can really sink my teeth into!

Jay.

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by FutureMagOwner
those arent clones those are mill'ed and a few different part autocockers i dont think i know any retail(meaning made full time by a company) that works like a cocker(pumps itself with nuematics) at this time(maybe im wrong correct me on that


and the desert fox is blow foreward if im not mistaken but completly different in design

You're splitting hairs.

They're clones of the original design. What's the definition of a clone?

Also, the desert fox is very close in design.

DR

[FutureMagOwner]

well im not too familiar withteh desert fox thats why i said if im not mistaken


what im saying is just because one guns a blow back and another is a blow back doesnt make one a clone of the other.(ie a tippy vs a spyder there 2 completly different blowbacks)

because i dont know too much about the desert fox assumed it didnt use valve similar too an air or retro valve and did use springs on the bolt(still dont know about the 2 things if someone would like to tell me that would be nice)

[mykroft]

FutureMagOwner:

What do you call the Sovereign and everything Palmer makes? They're all the same basic design as a cocker, evolved around the same time, but totally different in application. The Revenge V2 is a new Cocker clone, it takes a few cocker parts, but the body & trigger are fairly different, so is the Nanococker (PGP Semi conversion)

For Mag clones, there is the Desert Fox, that UK clone that Tom ran out of business (Blatant copy is more like it) and one of the semi paint pistols (Sidekick IIRC) is a Sydarm clone.

The main reason there are not many Blow-forwards is that the pump-conversion design is easy to do. It's a staple of airsmiths everywhere