View Full Version : Hyperframe/Level 10
Recently added a level 10 bolt to my mini mag, but it just will not work with my hyperframe.
It appears with the standard bolt moving a lot faster it can force its way over the sear and fire consistently but you get excessive bolt and sear wear,. although at least it fires!
With the Level 10 starting at a much lower speed it doesn't seem that the hyper frame solenoid has enough power to trip the sear.
I have tried milling the frame out to give the solenoid more space to get some momentum and upped the solenoid power to maximum, all to no effect. I have also tried three different on/off assemblies (Standard/RT/Centre Flags), every spring in the level 10 pack and the standard main spring.
Looks like no choice but to dump the frame!
Any ideas???
legion
07-03-2002, 11:03 AM
You could try shaving your sear assembly down until it fires, it would take awhile, but should work. It probably also wouldnt be the ideal situation. You could also try moving the solenoid forward a little bit (it has about .5mm of play after you unscrew the retention screws) one of those / both of those may fix your problems.
Legion
314159
07-03-2002, 11:06 AM
sounds like a custom board to allow you to adjust sear down time, and a larger cap/power source would do it for you.
you could just ebay it all and buy a emag that someone is selling.
Custom Board?
Now your either talking major monies or impossible!
Which one?
legion
07-03-2002, 11:13 AM
Hrm, after that you could using a 10.6v recharable (probably not a recomended solution) which may give the solenoid more juice to fire... Otherwise it sounds like time to send it to centerflag..
Legion
Legion
Thanks for your input.
I have milled out 2mm around the solenoid to all it the maximum amount of movement, but still no joy. Fires very intermitently.
I have tried new batteries, have been suggested the 10.8V rechargeable pack from John Sosta at powerpulse. However I think there is a regulater on the board to limit it to 5v.
fearc7
07-03-2002, 11:20 AM
I would just send it back to Centerflag, better them mess it up then you...
Minor problem.
Based in the UK, tournament on the 21st this month and heard that although Centre Flags are good, I doubt they will be able to return it in time.
legion
07-03-2002, 02:28 PM
Have you done any shaving on the sear? If you shave some off the sear where it catches it will move easier (at the expense of wearing your sear faster)...
Legion
Have you turned the power up to 9 in the service mode?
magstevo
07-03-2002, 11:08 PM
You trying to sell your hyperframe?
Not for sale yet!!!
I have tried turning the power up to maximum (9) still no change. Filed down the sear in stages testing it each time until it is worthless.
It looks like I have two options.
1. Keep the hyper frame, lose the level 10 and go back to the standard bolt, great rate of fire but ball breakages.
2. Keep the level 10 and go back to a standard frame. Slower rate of fire but never chop a ball.
Chigga Meat
07-04-2002, 08:40 AM
bling bling
paintballrulzs
07-04-2002, 10:54 AM
interesting...I am glad i looked at this post before getting my level 10. I am shooting a hyperframed mag also. The only time i chop is when the warp is hook up and i chop horribly. Get back to us if you get the problem worked out. Also have you contacted AGD or Centerflag. I asked a ? when the level 10s were first starting to be talked about. I asked if they would work with hyperframes and someone told me they would. I will check my pm box for the pm from someone and get back to ya. Keep in touch man I want a level 10. Also there has gotta be more people with elcd frames that have level 10. Maybe it is just a fluke thing with your gun? Hey you never know.
paintballrulzs
07-04-2002, 10:58 AM
I found the pm.....But this wasn't the thing i was talking about. Someone told me it would def work with a hyperframe.
PM:
Re: Hey
It should work just fine with the Hypeframe. I don't really see how the new mod could affect it, but it hasn't been tested with a Hyperframe yet.
-BlackVCG
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
paintballrulzs wrote on 05-04-2002 07:08 PM:
I am really interested in the level 10 upgrade. The problem is I currenly have a hyperframe. I was curious if i should sell it now. I have a guy in my town that is interested in purchasing it off me soon. If not he will buy one online. I was curious if the level 10 would have ne effect on the hyperframe. Like will it make it obselete or noncompatable. Please if you could tell me I promise I will not tell ne 1. THANKS
steveg
07-04-2002, 11:11 AM
NPP at the risk of offending those who have recommended
milling and filling etc. i'd say that they are just wrong!
filing the sear just ruins it.
The force to release the LVL10 is less than standard not more.
just a guess here (but a better one than i've read so far)
the hyperframe has an on time of 10ms (Not confirmed but
thats the most repeated number) the sear WILL be completely
depressed, but the bolt is more sluggish to react and is probably
relatching before the bolt starts to move.
try the loosest possible o-ring carrier maybe even start
with a leaky one to confirm my guess.
I'm standing by my mailbox for LVL10 for my hyperframed
mag
Do you have the new long on/off pin and rt bumper? both will reduce/eliminate bolt wear.
I have tried 5 different types of on/off pins and none work.
I checked my old bolt that I have been using with the hyper frame, although it fires great there is definitely wear on the bolt. What I am thinking is that the standard bolt normally comes through with such force that it powers its way over the sear and fires. Bit of bolt wear but fires okay.
With the level 10 it starts moving fairly slowly and just doesn't have enough power to trip over the sear.
With the level 10, the reg has to be screwed in a lot further to get the velocity close to 300 and so maybe there is more pressure on the on/off pin and the hypers solenoid doesn't have enough power to trip it.
The hyper only taps the sear, maybe it doesn't hit the sear long enough to let the gun fire. Is there any way of increasing the dwell time on the Hyper? Also I think the hyper is limited to 5 volts on the board, is there a way of upping the power to the solenoid apart from through service mode?(already tried this)
steveg
07-05-2002, 01:28 PM
I just assumed but never asked, you are using the two step
on/off pin supplied with the hyperframe?
the123
07-05-2002, 03:15 PM
A properly setup hyperframe shouldn't show you any signs of bolt wear. If you were getting bolt wear from the frame prior to installing the lvl 10, they you may have another issue that should be worked out before you scrap the idea. I installed a lvl 10 setup on my Hyperframe about a month ago and it worked, it fired, even had it chronoed to a low 240-250fps. worked ok in 2 games, but then would stop shooting.. TK made me give those parts back before i had a chance to debug it. The lvl10 parts we used in that Hyperframe fitted to an RT were from PROTOTYPE parts that were a little different than what is in your kit. (different bolt, PT tip, carrier)
I know LVL 10 worked on MY Hyperframe, so don't give up yet!!
mxracer33x
07-05-2002, 03:40 PM
Try this. I never found an on off pin i was happy with, so i modified my sear. I tig welded .030" ont othe tip of the sear that hits the on off pin. Actually I welded more and ground it down to .030". I will try my lvl 10 on my hyperframe tonite and see if it will work. Ill post as soon as I know
paintballrulzs
07-07-2002, 10:03 AM
Have you been able to get it working...I would love to know before i buy level 10.
Challe
07-07-2002, 02:19 PM
Only problem i know with the hyperfram is that the retrovalves on/off pinns doesent work with it.
i readed something that u must use the on/off ping that comes with the hyperframe , becuse the friktion that some pins have. something :)
Still no joy.
John Sosta at Airgun Europe has said that the longer on/off pin can make the sear ride the bolt. Due to the extended pin the sear doeasn't come fully away from the bolt although I have tried it.
I haven't tried extending the sear yet but if I was going to add a piece on I would think it would be better on the tip hit by the hyper solenoid. This way the sear would be further away from the bolt but closer to the on/off pin.
Don't get me wrong the L10 mod is the best mod ever made, works perfectly with a standard frame and probably with any mechanical frame. Just the elctronic frames seem to struggle to hit the sear hard enough.
Any thoughts Airgun/Centre Flags?
Miscue
07-09-2002, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by Challe
Only problem i know with the hyperfram is that the retrovalves on/off pinns doesent work with it.
i readed something that u must use the on/off ping that comes with the hyperframe , becuse the friktion that some pins have. something :)
? Centerflag used to recommend RT on/offs if theirs wasn't working right. They themselves would replace their on/offs with RT on/offs if they had issues.
What the Hyperframe needs is a tapered pin to reduce effort and save on battery life. Both the RT and CF on/off pins are tapered.
Sadly tried RT/Centreflag,standard On/off pins and none work.
paintballrulzs
07-09-2002, 06:59 PM
o man i wanted level 10 too. Looks like i gotta sell the hyperframe :mad:
Doobie
07-09-2002, 09:24 PM
I got my Hyper/retro to work and then ran out of air. I will test more this weekend when I can get a fill and some paint to play around with. I will post any results here.
Last try is this weekend, taking my setup to Airgun Europe in the hope they may be able to sort it out. Will let you know what the result is!
hey guys I am very intrested in this post so please keep posting if you get ur lvl 10's w/ hyper's up and running.
Hint Hint: This would make a good sticky.
i am tired from a day of play. I would need more exact descriptions of what exactly is heard and seen with the guns that dotn work.
but here is my setup for some thought.
Minimag with retro valve and level 10, 3 shims 1 day 2 shims the next 2 worked better. one carrier tighter then recomended by the instructions.
stock on off, long onoff pin supplied by centerflag, and quad oring to reduce friction on the on off.
Keep the batteries new and make sure they are good.
I shot today and sunday with no problems,
Doobie
07-11-2002, 09:40 PM
and quad oring to reduce friction on the on off.
What's a quad o-ring?:confused:
http://store.airgun.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&DID=17&Product_ID=233&CATID=6
Has anyone tried to use a hyper, RT Valve and L10 and not experienced any problems?
Would there be any difference in using a standard valve with an RT On/Off assembly as opposed to an RT valve and On/Off assembly?
With the same On/Off assembly in each valve, would the on/off pin be any harder to move with the sear?
paintballrulzs
07-12-2002, 09:41 AM
NPP- If you look around there are a bunch of people who are using an rt/hyperframe combo. It seems they don't have any problems. The thing i see is how can the rt valve have no problems and the classic have problems. This may be dumb, but before you added level 10 is shoot perfectly correct?
Always shot perfectly, the occasional break hence the change to level 10, nothing major but what the hell!
It may just be the combination hyper/L10/Standard Valve I don't know, I've tried every combination of on/off. Last resort is to see if anyone has this combination with an RT valve, if there's no problems I shall switch. If not I'll go to an intelliframe.
Who knows the Hyper may be up for sale!!! which I will hate as the frame shoots so fast!
paintballrulzs
07-12-2002, 10:08 AM
Before you do anything i would try to get someone to lend your their classic valve. Try level 10/hyperframe combo with that. I would also try to use YOUR particular setup with someones Rt and level 10. That way you can narrow down where your problem is. I think rudy has a hyperframed/RT/LEVEL 10 mag.
I have the classic valve, this is the problem!
I need to know if anyone has experienced the same problem with an RT
paintballrulzs
07-12-2002, 10:14 AM
Ya i understand what your problem is. So far you are the only one who has had a problem (and spoke of it) with a level 10 hyperframe combo. I know some people have an rt/hyperframe/level 10 and so far no problems have been reported.
Thanks! At last I might be getting to the bottom of the problem.
Looks like an RT upgrade!
I'm intrigued to know if anyone else has the same problem which might then rule out anyone being able to use the hyper/standard valve/L10 combination or anyone that has had problems with an RT setup.
paintballrulzs
07-12-2002, 10:43 AM
Yes but how could the valve affect it working or not? That doesn't exactly make any sense.
I think it is down to how much pressure is on or around the on/off valve. The higher the pressure the harder the solenoid would have to hit the sear. With the L10 the velocity has to be dialed up higher therefore more pressure around the on/off valve. This must be affected by which valve you are using.
paintballrulzs
07-12-2002, 11:25 AM
O No I don't wanna get rid of my frame, but i don't have 200 bucks for an rt valve. I wonder if any of the ans or any of the aftermarket valves will work?
paintballrulzs
07-14-2002, 06:57 PM
Did you get it working?
Finally got it sorted!
The answer was to connect the 10.8V battery from the warp to the frame so there is no battery in the frame. The extra voltage going to the frame seems to have cured it. Fired in excess of 1500 shots on one charge so far, not sure how many shots it will fire before the frame stops hitting the sear hard enough.
paintballrulzs
07-16-2002, 02:05 PM
O NO!!! I just ordered my level 10. I could never do what you did to solve your problem!!!
PigSweat
07-16-2002, 02:51 PM
NPP, where did you get the 10.8 V battery? and how did you install it? Plz, I need to know as I have a tournament this weekend.
Thanks, Ryan
paintballrulzs
07-17-2002, 09:48 AM
up!
The 10.8V battery comes from John Sosta at Powerpulse.
To install it I first did the twin warp mod which can be found on the forum, installed an on/off switch to ensure I can stop any battery drain from the warp spinning when not required. The second snap connector from the twin mod just has a longer wire and connected to the snap connector in the frame. To ensure they match you just have to connect the wires on the mod in reverse or the polarities won't match. This also means you can disconnect the warp from the frame.
Played a tournment last weekend and had no problems but I think having a spare 10.8 is a good idea as I don't know how many shots you can fire powering the warp and frame before the frame won't fire.
PigSweat
07-26-2002, 02:45 AM
Duracell ultras work for me man
PigSweat
07-26-2002, 02:48 AM
i know, i've been following this thread. But thus far have had no problems with my Hyperframe/level 10
nicad
07-26-2002, 01:46 PM
ran my lvl10 micro-hyper mag all last weekend, and worked great! about the only problems i ever ran into was trying to fire with the safety on, which would create a slight leak out the barrel as well as the bolt hanging just slightly forward and wold not re-cock.
pushing the bolt back with a swab and letting the sear click in would fix it.
otherwise, no probelms at all.. was a joy to shoot again! :)
steveg
07-26-2002, 06:56 PM
got lv10 working with my hyperframe today no problems other
than failing to notice that the safety was on for the first
10 min :o
Just to say after 3 tournaments including Campaign everything running perfectly. No breaks, extreme speed, you just couldn't get any better.
Go to a walk on event, half way through the day start kisfiring again. I thought the battery may be low, changed it out, still no change. I have had to resort to changing the spring down in size but have had a few breaks due to less bounce on the ball.
Would the carrier O-rings wearing or sear wearing cause this problem?:confused:
pbzmag
11-29-2002, 01:18 PM
I also had a problem with LX10/Classic valve/HyperFrame como. I tried everything from changing the service mode to 9, fresh batteries, to moving the solinoid. I did get it to work a few times consistantly, but only to have problems the next day. I gave up and bought a Intelli. When I buy a Retro, I will make a backup marker with the classic vavle.
Doobie
11-30-2002, 01:20 AM
Would the carrier O-rings wearing or sear wearing cause this problem?
Maybe your carrier is too small or you just have to oil the bolt piston and o-ring before a days play. Mine was misfiring and oiling the bolt piston and o-ring fixed my problem. I run a Hyperframe/ retro valve and level 10 also.
Hope that helps
Buckwheat
11-30-2002, 03:59 PM
NPP have you inspected the L10 bolt for chipping from the sear? I installed the Hyperframe and then noticed bolt chip. I contacted CF and they sent me a .750 on-off pin from a RT. This seemed to help. I have now installed the L10 and after 200 rounds I see my new bolt is starting to chip also. The RTPro on-off pin is .765, I think this might be my next step to try to get rid of premature bolt wear. I never had any problems getting my Hyper to fire, the only problem I had was bolt wear and it seems to use a LOT more air. I am going to replace the sear, get an RTPro pin and see how that works.
I have the RT On/Off pin, took it to John Sosta at Airgun Europe and he said that the CF on/off pins can make the bolt ride the sear. With the RT pin I have shot over 30,000 paint in 6 months and there is no noticeable wear on the bolt or pin which I think is pretty good:D :D
Obviuosly this is a fair amount of paint and I have inspected the O-rings and can't see any noticeable wear, but maybe replacing the carrier O-rings will help.
I think by the feedback so far the main problem is the classic valve/Hyper combination. Those with Classics seem to have more problems than those with RT valves.
The moral of the story is
RT/Hyper/L10 90% chance
Classic/Hyper/L10 make sure you have a lot of time and patience!
Buckwheat
12-05-2002, 07:20 PM
They told me to try a RT bolt bumper. The bumper on a Classic valve is made of harder material and don't let the LX bolt come back far enough for the sear to catch it all the time. The RT bumper is softer and compresses more to let the bolt go back farther. This must be why the people with RT valves don't have problems.
hitech
12-05-2002, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by Buckwheat
They told me to try a RT bolt bumper.
Same here. I heard that both on this forum and from Centerflag. Mine works fine. However, I haven't put many shots on it (never use in a game yet). I have the level 7 bolt in as the level 10 was getting chewed up from the sear not catching enough. I've since fixed that with a longer on/off pin, but I'm not taking any chances. I'm going to put at least a tank full of shots though it before I put the level 10 bolt back in. :D
If the bumper was stopping the bolt coming back far enough wouldn't the bolt stutter, ie try to re-cock, not have enough energy and try to fire again. A bit like a marker on Co2 running out of pressure.
The main problem I sear is the solenoid not having enough power to hit the sear hard enough to get the sear clear of the bolt to let the marker fire.
It would be interesting to hear from AGD how much pressure is required to get the marker to fire with a standard sear and your finger! compared with the CF solenoid.
hitech
12-06-2002, 12:55 PM
The reason to use the RT bumper is to reduce sear/bolt wear. By compressing more it allowes the sear more time to full latch. Because it is softer the bolt doesn't bounce as much which also reduces wear on the sear/bolt.
I am sure this will give the bolt more time to latch, however, the issue is with the sear clearing the bolt when the marker is fired not on the return.
When the solenoid taps the sear it doesn't move it far enough away, so that the bolt slides over the sear and this causes the chipping along the front edge of the bolt or just won't release and the marker won't fire.
hitech
12-06-2002, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by NPP
When the solenoid taps the sear it doesn't move it far enough away...and the marker won't fire.
Move the solenoid closer to the sear. There are four VERY small allen screws that hold the solenoid in place. Loosen those and move it. Just remember, if it's too close the sear won't catch all the way and will chew up the sear/bolt. You should be able to manually move the solenoid plunger slightly without the sear following. It is easier to see the movement of the sear if you remove the saftey (don't loose the TINY ball bearing ;) ). I doubled checked that the sear was fully latching by pushing on the sear thorugh the saftey hole and making sure it did not move. Hope that helps. :D
xen_100
12-06-2002, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by NPP
I have tried new batteries, have been suggested the 10.8V rechargeable pack from John Sosta at powerpulse. However I think there is a regulater on the board to limit it to 5v.
I dont know if anyone mentioned this yet...........but the 5 volt reg on the hyper is most likely only for the circuit board. I can say almost certainly that the noid fires from the battery directly. there is a transitor on the board that grounds it to allow it to fire, but it charges from the battery. so if you got the higher voltage battery, it would add more kick to the noid and maybe solve the problem.
I know on my spyder boo-yaah, I run it at 12V and no longer have any problems with it not smacking the sear hard enough to fire.
hitech
12-06-2002, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by xen_100
I know on my spyder boo-yaah, I run it at 12V and no longer have any problems with it not smacking the sear hard enough to fire.
I use a NiMh 9.6 volt battery pack (I did get it to work with a standard 9 volt). I'd be worried about using 12 volts. My Hyperframe (and I'll bet the Boo-Yaah is the same) has a large capacitor that is only rated at 10 volts. Might cause trouble.
xen_100
12-06-2002, 05:39 PM
The boo-yaah cap is rated for 16 volts.
the rest of the circuit works great. I have run the grip as high as 14 volts with out any problems. most IC regulators will regulate the rated output voltage up to about 28 volts input. with the short "on" time of the noid, it shouldn't hurt it. you may just have to replace the Cap with a higher votlage value cap.
hitech
12-06-2002, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by xen_100
The boo-yaah cap is rated for 16 volts.
Then it's probably fine. Better parts in the Boo-Yaah, who would have thought. :eek:
;)
Buckwheat
12-06-2002, 08:26 PM
Those with Classics seem to have more problems than those with RT valves.
Would the RT sear have anything to do with this?
I have never seen an RT. The only Mag I have ever seen is my Mini so I don't know what the difference is in the sears.
steveg
12-07-2002, 07:51 PM
Move the solenoid closer to the sear.
I'm curious to know where this idea started , If you really!! think about it and look you will see that moving
the solenoid body from its correct position will actually
shorten the solenoid stroke!
hostage
12-09-2002, 01:46 AM
Try tightening the both screws on the mag, it will make the distance between the on/off. Also remember to OIL!!!
-Doron
If you check back through this thread you will see that I am running a 10.8 volt through the frame and also milled out the frame to give the solenoid more room. This gives the solenoid more room to accelerate before hitting the sear.
hitech
12-09-2002, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by NPP
If you check back through this thread you will see that I am running a 10.8 volt through the frame and also milled out the frame to give the solenoid more room. This gives the solenoid more room to accelerate before hitting the sear.
I doubt that the solenoid plunger gains anything from accelerating before striking the sear. It doesn't have much throw in the first place. I believe that it needs to have a VERY small gap between the solenoid plunger and the sear. Just enough so the the sear can fully latch on the bolt. If it is too far away the plunger won't move enough to "unlatch" the sear from the bolt.
Since it is not working now, I would move the solenoid as close as possible to the sear.
John Sosta tried every possible combination with the solenoid. I tried moving it up so there was the smallest amount of movement but this had no effect.
The only combination that worked was with an RT On'Off pin and assembly, the 10.8V battery from the warp and to mill the frame out to give the solenoid more space.
hitech
12-09-2002, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by NPP
The only combination that worked...
Okay, I'm not reading everything. I missed )or forgot) that it is working now. I count only get mine to work with the centerflag on/off pin, which is the same thing as an RT pin.
I was wondering if anyone had seen any noticeable wear on the sear or bolt using the CF on/Off pin?
I have been told that if the pin is to long it can cause the bolt to ride the sear.
steveg
12-10-2002, 06:43 AM
NPP I've had a hyperframe from when they first came out,
and have been using the long cf pin(now with lvl-10)
I've never seen evidence of wear on any part ,pin,sear
or bolt.(and my job is to find wear in stuff)
In fact "riding the sear"is pretty much how the HF is intended to work.
By the way are you using the Teflon o-ring supplied by
CF on you RT on/off.
Having recently installed an o-ring kit on a friends rt
I noticed that the urethane on/off orings supplied by
AGD have significently more friction that the teflon o-ring
supplied by CF.
That increased friction is not a good thing, after about
3 years the pin on mine, while still sealing perfectly,
will almost fall out of the valve on its own weight.
I am using the emag on/off o-rings that have a square edge.
steveg
12-10-2002, 08:28 AM
I am using the emag on/off o-rings that have a square edge.
I take it that you mean the very top o-ring i'm refering
to the one around the on/off stem it's self
Yes I did mean the top O-ring.
I will try the teflon O-ring and see if there is any difference.
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