Playing fair...or playing stupid?

[CleenSweep]

I was at a local tournament this past weekend here in K.C. I did not get to play because of a funeral. However, as I was watching I noticed a player get shot in the pack. It was not a bad hit and left very little paint, but a hit it was. He felt it and asked the ref for a paint check. Of course he was eliminated and eventually his team was defeated.

As his team was leaving the field I was so impressed with his honesty that I told him so. He said thank you and proceeded to the chrono. It was in this line that I heard his teamates rip into him for volunteering himself to be checked. The hit did make it past the observations of the ref. They chewed into him for the next 20 min. and I felt very agrivated and sorry for him.

I have been playing paintball for a long time now and I know all about pushing the envelope. But were his actions honorable or just stupid. I felt it was the right thing to do and admired him for it. However, I hear otherwise from even some of the guys on my team. To me you have a lot more fun being honest than just not caring.

[TRIAD]

It was great that he did that, I mean, if you win and cheat, what's the point. His teammates must not have any morals, because cheating is really dumb. Whenever we play (rec only for now), we have refs and we all regularly check if we feel something, because there's no point in not checking. It just shows that he's honest and willing to lose to play fair.

[Schnitzel]

when in a setting such as a tournament, people will do things they wouldn't do if they were just playing rec. It takes a lot of will power to call yourself, when you could easily play on. I hate doing it, but if some 10 year-old saw me do that, i would be ashamed. who knows how such a little action could affect the future of his and his friends games. those who play fair deserve the high-end markers, not some punk whose balls haven't even dropped yet.

[Python14]

I wish more paintballers were like that. Yea, his team may have lost. But it's only a game. They don't have careers or big money riding on it. Honor and valor like that should be valued more than money and sponsorships.

Next time you see him, or if you ever see him, tell him how right that was of him. Doing the right thing, especially when all your friends don't like it, is very hard, but gratitude from a stranger makes it worth it.

okay, I digress.

[nutz]

Bottom line here...

Losing sucks

[Jonno06]

"cheating gets it faster"-Jimmy Eat World...


thats cool,but why worry about a small rec trny?

[magman007]

well what he did was good, where i play you have to baisically point out where the hit is to the ref, or they usually dont see it. i mean i got hit in the side of the mask and they didnt see it, i took the time to check my self and call my self out, i always play fair, whether it is a tourny or a rec game, and i figure in tourny's if you sdont win, the sportsman ship prizes are usually pretty bad azz 2

[Bwaites]

Bobby Jones, one of the greatest golfers who ever lived put it this way.

He called a penalty on himself when his ball moved as he addressed the ball. That is the proper thing to do by the rules. No one else saw what had happened. When he was congratulated for his honesty, He said "You might as well congratulate a man for not robbing a bank, for what would be the point if you cannot be honest with yourself" I think I paraphrased that a little, but the point is made.

The guy was right in what he did, regardless of the lack of morals of his teammates. "Win at all cost" only should apply in war.

I find that most people who cheat don't feel good about themselves, and they HAVE to live with themselves.

Bill

[MagmanLee]

What i think he did was very honorable, regardless of what others think about winning at all cost and pushing the envolope. Maybe others don't have morals and don't care how they win but it's good to see at least some ppl are honest enough to do the right thing.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

Originally posted by Bwaites
I find that most people who cheat don't feel good about themselves, and they HAVE to live with themselves.

Bill

I disagree. People that cheat are playing for one purpose, and one purpose only, to win. Winning is the only reason to play. To most "proffessional" paintball players, winning means that you are the best. As long as their team is ahead and winning, any means of doing so is justifyable. There really isn't to much sportsmanship in "proffesional" paintball. I realize that there are honest players and honest teams. But they are so few and far between, they're really hard to spot in the midst of all the wiping, playing on, and arguing a a call just to get a few points.

I once, not to long ago, had a discussion with a kid that works at my local shop. Actually, he's the son of the owner. He was trying to tell me that cheating is a normal aspect of paintball. He was trying to justify cheating. I would have argued, but really, is there a point? He would have never let down and most of those type of people see only their way. It just seems to me that the higher level of paintball you play, the more dishonest you have to be to succeed. Kinda makes me want to stick to rec ball.

[shartley]

I think it was great of him to do…. And everyone SHOULD do that.


Bobby Jones, one of the greatest golfers who ever lived put it this way.

He called a penalty on himself when his ball moved as he addressed the ball. That is the proper thing to do by the rules. No one else saw what had happened. When he was congratulated for his honesty, He said "You might as well congratulate a man for not robbing a bank, for what would be the point if you cannot be honest with yourself" I think I paraphrased that a little, but the point is made.
I agree. But I also always point out to my kids when they do the right thing, no matter how small it is. Far too often only the bad things get pointed out. (However, the reference to robbing a bank VS just doing the right thing is a bit of a stretch… but I understand where he was going with it. He would have been better to just say “pick up and keep lost money” :D)


The guy was right in what he did, regardless of the lack of morals of his teammates. "Win at all cost" only should apply in war.
I am with you on the first sentence, but you lost me with the second. ;) Winning at all cost and warfare can be a pretty scary thing if you think about it. That is why we have War Tribunals. You may want to rethink that one. (nuff said)


Bottom line here...

Losing sucks
LOL Yes, that it does. But for ME, winning knowing I cheated would be worse. Because if you win by cheating, you really were not the “winner”, they may have “lost”, but you did not win a darn thing… you stole it.

[mykroft]

I was watching a video of that Russian team, Iron Legion? when one of their back guys ran up, under fire to tell a front guy that he was hit, the front guy walks off, and the back guy runs back.

That team has a rep for ironclad honesty, even so much as to risk another tag to make sure they played honest.

[nutz]

wow... isnt where were the refs in this game?? in any big teams game theres always more than 1, 2 or even 3 refs

[mykroft]

nutz, the ref ahdn't seen the hit, it was 10 man, with about 5 refs, back guy saw the hit on the pack and ran up to tell the other guy he was out.

[FrAuStY]

I personally would have had some words with his teamtes about their behavior. First off...he's honest.. there is NOTHING wrong with that. That is one reason I won't play tourney ball... too many dishonest teams! Its been stated before...if you cheat to win... you don't actually win, you just stole the title of "The Winner" from the opposition. Its hard to believe that morals have regressed so bad that people cheat in paintball just like on their S.A.T's! I feel for those people, you know if they cheat in paintball they gotta be cheating elsewhere. What a sad lonely life to live. Thats not healthy. Anyway..I'd given him mad proprs in front of his team.. after having a few words with them for giving him lip about being honest..

Is he still on that team? If so..they should be greatful...what if he didn't call himself out..then they lost him+1 for playing on? Then they'da been even more upset.. Kinda Catch 22'ish, crazy.

[845]

In the NPPL there is an obvious pressure to cheat. When your team has a sponsorship that amounts to 100k from just 1 company there is pressure to win. But if your a no name local tourny team and you cheat you're just being TWiBs

[FooTemps]

Cheating is just plain stupid. Like shartley said, you basically steal the title of winner. I see the pressure which leads to cheating but it still isn't very smart to cheat. If you cheat and get caught in a tournament your team is probably out of the tournament or your team gets reductions. If you do that you're probably going to lose your sponsorship and get a rep as a cheater too. I know there are a lot of damn good cheaters out there. Why bother practice whiping and be the better cheater when you could practice yoru skills and be the better player?

[Bwaites]

Cheating under ANY circumstances during a game is WRONG. If you say, "Well there is a lot of pressure to cheat in NPPL events, because of sponsorship" it is acknowledging that there may be circumstances where it is OK to cheat. There are NONE. Period.

What if your doctor cheated by not giving you a drug that worked well because the one he used was cheaper?

What if your policemen cheated by arresting everyone who had a drivers license because they MIGHT speed? Oops, there is a new movie about something like that, isn't there?

What if, well you get the point. Cheating is WRONG, there is NO gray area. If it is not right, it is wrong.

Shartley, the war analogy stands, war crime tribunals are called by winners who find that the losers have committed atrocities not related to the actual war, but to retribution/oppression against someone. No one prosecutes those who wage war and do so in an attempt to win unless they persecute those who should be noncombatants, IE. the Jews in Germany, the civilian Koreans and Chinese in WWII, etc. No one prosecuted the Americans for using the most horrific weapon unleashed in war against Nagasaki and Hiroshima, because most realized that it was a legitimate way to end the war. Many felt that our bombings of Germany were wrong, as we attacked one factory and village after another attempting to cripple the German war effort, and yet no tribunals for us were called.

We have proved repeatedly, as have other nations, that we will do anything to win as a nation when we feel we are in the right. The problem with Vietnam, and to a lesser extent, Korea, was that we as a country never committed to that idea, as we had in WWII and WWI.

To paraphrase another famous person, I think Admiral Nelson, when asked about how glorious victory was, he said "The greatest tragedy of all, save defeat."

Bill

[FreshmanBob]

Any kind of cheating is always wrong, and it's why i don't plan on playing any local tornies in the future. When people cheat they take away from the enjoyment of the game. It's always sad to see the professional players cheat that set the standard for most things in paintball.

[Bwaites]

FreshmanBob,

So true!

Bill

[blackmag3]

i wish everyone would play ball with honor. if your marked take the walk even if the ref hasnt seen it and called you out. even if i get shot in the back and there isnt a ref around i reach back touch my back and if i feel paint i walk to the dead box. cheating for any reason is more than wrong. i wish players would get fined money or banned for cheating. it's one thing to play on with a hit you didnt feel but to cheat or lie about it is unacceptable. why dont companies pull sponsorship from teams known for cheating? that just makes the company look like they promote cheating. winning is not the most important thing. safety is of course always number one. i'd much rather lose every game i play than cheat and win even once.

[riooso]

People who cheat are losers in at least 2 areas. They accomplish nothing because they do not get the feelings that come with accomplishments. All the people that I grew up with that cheated at everything, and all cheaters cheat at everything, are behind me.

R

[Creative Mayhem]

I knew a team that used to play until the ref called them, playing with obvious hits, etc. This team was sponsored by a local feild, and the owner happened to see some of this, neeless to say, the owner didn't care for the lack of fair play and pulled thier sponsorship. I believe checking or having the ref checking yourself is the honorable thing to do. Not only do you and your team look good, but it reflects well on any sponsors you may have. Oh, did forget to mention you can sleep well after the fact.:) If you cheat, you only cheat yourself.

[lala]

This is simple theres two ways to play playing smart and cheating. Example when your running to your bunker and you fell a hit on you upper body. You could A, IF it broke just slid in and take it off and keep on playing like nothing happen or you can do the SMART thing and that is to slid in to you bunker and if you can see paint where it hit you or you call a ref over to cheack you and he sees paint where you thought it hit you AND you know that paint wasn't there be for CALL YOUR SELF OUT. That way you can still win with out cheating but your still playing to win. Ya know this is the longest thing I ever wrote. Play fair, aggresive, Fast dicipling paint ball and you'll win, with respect.

[rudy]

its a good question is it honest yes is it stupid, well i woudl not say stupid but I understand where the other guy is coming from. If it were up to most people they would say just play clean but there are a few people out there who will win at any cost and they feel that if the ref doesnt catch it its fair. I personally say if the ref caught it, its a penalty if the ref doesnt catch it then its cheating. but the real problem is in the middle all the guys who play and know the other guy will cheat given the chance, so they say why shoudl i lose a game just cause the other guy cheated. fight fire with fire the end result ends up most cheat and very few are still strong enough to not cheat.

my personal view has been jsut get so good that it doesnt matter if they cheat. and that works up to the point where you top out in skill and teamwork or if the refs are way to bad. I know paintball can never be a recognised sport untill we get better reffing and less cheating. I think cheating or playing on with an obvious hit should cost a team the whole game
if its 100 point max it should be a 100 point penalty and a 2 or 3 for 1 make it so it isnt worth the risk. also I think as paintball is filmed more the cheaters some under fire more that will help.

[AngelBoy]

The team that one the Splat-1 Indoors at Harriman were the worst I've ever seen. They were taping the whole tournament. They got caught wiping on tape. Shouldn't the tournament sponsors taken their 1st place?

[Supatravis]

I believe that they should have gotton there first place taken away or atleast did again against the second place team

[Havoc_online]

I always call the refs to me if I get hit and can't see if it broke, just to make sure. I will also correct a ref if someone moves to bunker me or I move to bunker someone and I get hit First but the ref thinks they did and calls them out. I'm all about straight up playing....

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

What really gets to me is the fact that ALOT of teams/players/fields don't look down on cheating. It seems to me that there are so few people that don't see cheating as wrong. Alot of people accept it and don't see anything wrong with it. They allow people to cheat as if nothing happened. They know that people constantly wipe, but they still accept them on their team. If i had a team, and i caught someone wiping, they would be gone. I can only think of like 2 or 3 teams around here that don't cheat. I think our sport in the upper levels is really a horrible place to be. I know a team that actually comes up with stratagies to cheat. Or even if someone knows he's hit, they make a code so that others on the team that aren't hit will call for a check on themselve to draw away the refs from the person that got hit so he can wipe. Are you kidding me? That is rediculous. If that's what it takes to be a "Proffesional" paintball player, count me out, i'll stick to novice.

[AngelBoy]

Originally posted by hostage


CHEATERS ARE LIKE TAMPONS, EVERY PUSSY NEEDS ONE.

HAHA!

[KHartley]

Hostage:
Your last comment "CHEATERS ARE LIKE TAMPONS,... " is totally unnecessary and a bit on the classless side. You do realize that this is not just a "boys only" forum but one that reaches out to all ages and both females and males. I personally am offended by your post and apparent lack of class.

I have seen lately quite a decline in the manners of many of the members here on AO (mostly new members but some old as well), but I am glad to see that the Moderators are starting to crack down on it.

[alkafluence]

Originally posted by CleenSweep
As his team was leaving the field I was so impressed with his honesty that I told him so. He said thank you and proceeded to the chrono. It was in this line that I heard his teamates rip into him for volunteering himself to be checked. The hit did make it past the observations of the ref. They chewed into him for the next 20 min. and I felt very agrivated and sorry for him.

Granted there is the competitive nature of tourney ball which causes this in the first place, but still playing fair is the best route.

If his teammates chewed into him for making the right decision, you have to wonder if that's the team for him? Perhaps its time to find a new team?

[hostage]

I am sorry you offended by that last comment. I didn't mean it offencivly. I was compairing cheating to a problem that all women and men hate. If I compaired it to thing that guys did or that guys and women do both, would it have been better? I was compairing a problem to another problem using a semily. Again I apoligize.
-Hostage

[Bwaites]

KHartley,

Thank you, I'm glad I'm not the only non moderator to try to help.

Come on guys, that is ridiculous!

Everybody should have jumped on it!

Keep it clean, and use some common sense, guess that is in short supply among us sometimes.

Bill

PS- Hostage, if you edited it out once you realized it was offensive, thank you!

[hostage]

Bwaites: I apologized to her personally and openly and also eraised it from my original message, I ment it as some stuiped joke. Just please don't jump on my back about it, I understood what I did wrong and I don't think I needs to be ANY more discussion about it anymore.
-Hostage

[Havoc_online]

now if only AngelBoy would delete his post aswell...

[KHartley]

Hostage:
Thank you for your apology. I appreciate you taking that off your post and realizing what you did.

Bwaites:
Thank you as well. I do think that it is time for people to realize what is appropriate and what is not.

Havoc_online:

I couldn't agree more with you. It doesn't make any sense for it to be on here since Hostage took that part off of his post anyway.

Sam (shartley) says thank you as well. :)