On/off in an older AutoMAG - need help!

[scoorf]

Hi folk,

I came across a 5-6 year old AutoMAG, and after a bit of research I think it's what you guys would call a level 6, if that's possible. At any rate, it was in fairly poor condition when I got it. I've been changing most of the stuff I easily could, all O-rings have been exchanged, and it has been oiled in the proper places.

However, when I connected CO2 to it, it started leaking -a lot- .. and mostly down the trigger area. So I figured, maybe I reassembled it wrong(I do not know if it ever did work normally). I took it apart again, and I've tried just about every damn solution there is to putting the on/off together. After deciding that the on/off wasn't going to play along, I decided to get a new one. The easiest part to get was the Z-Valve, as you cannot order the on/off stock part from AGD and ship it to europe, nor can I find it in their european web shop or others in Sweden.

The Z-valve arrived today, and it was replaced. I open the CO2 valve, the expansion chamber fills up, and the trigger bolt pops forward, ready to fire. I'm in heaven, looks like it works!!

I pull a test shot - it shoots as it should, but the bolt doesn't hop back out! A second passes, and it finally does, with a little extra splurt of CO2 coming out.

So, apart it goes, lube it up, check all parts. Back together again, same procedure. Test fire, bolt comes back out after about half a second, and it kinda 'shoots' as it does it. It seemed to go better this time, so I figured it might just need to be 'shot in', to allow the pin in the on/off to slide smoother through it all.

I took it to the forest, loaded it up, and shot a few test shots. It fires the first flawlessly .. I could carpet-paint a whole field in seconds if it kept this up .. even shorter now, the bolt hops back out, and as it does, it shoots again. Another ball literally rolls out the barrel, flying only about 15 feet. Fire again, perfect shot, as the trigger bolt pops back out 0.3 seconds later, it gives off another one of those splurts where a ball almost rolls out.


So, to cut it short:
Trigger pop-back(or the bolt that's supposed to come out behind the trigger) is really slow to come out, and it gives off a half-assed shot the moment it does.

I'm thinking the problem isn't in the trigger mechanism, but rather the on/off pin not automatically hopping back down as fast as it should.

The gun isn't leaking anymore, with the Z-Valve, but the fire difficulties is making the gun unusable.

Does anyone(that endure reading through my long story) have any idea what could be causing this?

I can provide pictures if you think it would help.

Thanks in advance,
scoorf

[FrAuStY]

does it leak down the barrel as if the bolt it sticking out? If so..I'd change the bolt spring... it may be wornout. Does it extend past the nose of the bolt by at least 1/8" or 3 mm? If not..I'd try a new one. It may be that since the bolt isn't coming all the way back, its not allowing the on/off chamber to fill up properly. Also...is there a powertube spring or spacer in the powertube? (If its lvl 6 I don't even know that you can remove the tip to find out.) Anyway, if the bolt's sticking out and not reseating properly after a new spring I'd go with a spacer thats a little longer. If you can even change them in that gun. Good luck...keep us informed.

WELCOME TO AO!! Also, if you need any help..just let us know... we're here to help..all 3000 of us :)

[Polishpickles451]

i would send it in to AGD, even though that may take a long time, and have them do an upgrade to LVL 7

[athomas]

Welcome to AO

Chances are that the mag is already a level 7. They've been around for about 10 years now. Since you've indicated that the mag is older and in poor condition when you purchased it, you should replace all o-rings and the bolt spring. This ensures you are starting from scratch with known good parts.

Chances are, that the problems you are experiencing are from the bolt spring being worn out. If the bolt doesn't return properly, it keeps the on/off assy in the off position by holding the sear down and the trigger rod back.

If you need help, keep posting what you've done and the problems you are experiencing. You'll get great support here in this forum.

Hope you get it working.

[scoorf]

Hi again folks,

I'm very grateful for the quick replies - I think I'll hang around this forum for a while!

First of all, I'd just like to make sure I'm trying the things you're suggesting - I'm not too well versed in the proper names of the innards of this thing. Here are two pictures(excuse the poor quality).

http://box.spicelab.net/box/bolt.jpg

http://box.spicelab.net/box/split.jpg


The picture with the red ring is the problem area, what I call the "bolt". It takes about 0.1 to 0.2 seconds to pop back out, and it gives off a little extra shot as it does.

The other is the only spring I could find (other than the spacer), is this the 'trigger spring'? It seems fine, when it was inserted I could press the pin and it seemed to flex nicely.

I've also checked the actual mechanism that is pushed down by the on/off pin and pushes the bolt/trigger out - it seemed to go a bit slow, I wiggled it into place, oiled it a bit, and now it seems to actually be more responsive.

It still fires the second little fire though, which I'm unable to spot the cause of.

All O-rings have been replaced, so that part should be fine. Sending it in to AGD is most likely not an option, as it would cost me more to ship it overseas and via customs and so on than buying a new weapon - everything is fixable, and as long as I maintain that attitude I'll be damned if the thing isn't working when I finally grow sick of it.

I have learned one thing, though - me and my buddy have probably gotten right up there with the pros in reassembling one of these things. Bada-bing-bada-boom, and it's in one piece. Doing it on my own, however, is a completely different story. :)

Any other tips, guys? Have I missed something? And thanks again.

[athomas]

I think the part you are referring to is the trigger rod.

Here is a link to tell you what your parts are.

http://www.airgun.com/downloads/valveexplodedview.pdf

[scoorf]

Yup, just found the manual myself - I've been going through it and the gun, and everything seems a-ok.

So, the trigger rod is the thing not popping back instantly. Suggestions? :)

[alkafluence]

I'm sure you've tried this already, but it's worth repeating... Have you tried removing the grip frame assembly and taking the whole trigger rod with accompanying catch out and seeing if there isn't something interfering with the release? Perhaps some dirt or other obstruction in the groove that the pin sits in?

[athomas]

Check the sear and the sear pin. The sear pin should be sitting in the rail at the bottom of the notch in the rail. The sear should rotate freely on the sear pin.

The sear should be smooth and the edges should be well defined. If there are noticable signs of wear, then it should be replaced.

I notice that the grip frame has a screw holding the trigger in place. I could be wrong, but I think that should be a pin of some sort. Maybe the trigger is binding on the screw and preventing the rod from pushing it into place. Is the rod tight against the trigger when it is sticking?

Maybe your on/off pin is bent. Remove the pin from the on/off assembly and lay it on a piece of glass. If it rolls smoothly then it is probably ok. If there are any signs of wobble, then it is bent and should be replaced.

[scoorf]

This time I've checked out all of the sear and the screw you mentioned - it's actually screwed into(inside) a bolt that comes in from the other side - to keep the bolt in place. I've checked the sear, reseated and lubed it, it seems to flow smoothly. I've tried holding down the part of the sear where the onoffpin hits, and the trigger rod comes out nice and fast - seems fine.

So I started on the on/off pin again - it actually moved kinda slow - and since it's not just a pin(this was the replacement z-valve pin, it has a few wider areas), I couldn't roll it down anything. But it did feel a bit off. So i've decided to try the old on/off again, because the pin that goes through it is much smoother.

Because the old on/off made the gun leak, I've put in a few pictures on how I think it should be reassembled. I've checked the blow up charts, but the brass piece in mine doesn't look the same as the charts. The drawing indicates what it looks like, could you tell me if I'm putting it together the proper way?

http://box.spicelab.net/box/onoff.jpg

http://box.spicelab.net/box/golden.gif

I'm not giving up yet, at any rate.

Thanks for all your help so far, folks.

UPDATE!

With the old on/off in, the trigger pops out perfectly - I think we've found the flaw! However, the old on/off still leaks an amazing lot down the trigger, so something is definetly wrong with it. Please check out the pictures and tell me what you think!

[athomas]

According to your pictures, the on/off top is on upside down. The larger flat side of the brass on/off top should go at the top. The smaller end should go on the bottom next to the stainless bottom piece.

The leaking you are experiencing will occur if you put the on/off top in upside down.

Try it again put in the way I suggested. It should work for you. The on/off top you have is an older top. AGD has a new design that works much better and allows the valve to charge faster reducing the possibility of shootdown. The new on/off top also doesn't have an up or down, so you can't accidently get it in upside down.

Let us know how you make out.

[scoorf]

Yup, tried it both ways, and the one in the picture is wrong. Problem is it still leaks, with no apparent reason. Down the trigger, not out the barrel or anything - it's almost like the air escapes through it somewhere, although it should be fairly shut..

Oh well, I'll order an entire new on/off. I think it's about $15 anyway, the problem is getting it here(to sweden), as AGD doesn't ship overseas.

Thanks again, folks.

[FrAuStY]

Did you try the Airgun Europe site? There's a link to it on Airgun.com, also...youreplaced and lightly lubed all o-rings in the on/off assembly? The reason I ask is the bottom o-ring on the on/off bottom (pic I edited) looks discolored and old... possibly small cracks you can't see in it. If you look at the other one... its brighter white. Was this one replaced? Also...did you use an AGD parts kit? If not..get one.. they have all the needed o-rings to rebuild your gun. Its a must to have one of these in your kit :) Keep your progress coming..we'd like to know if it works...at least I would :D

[scoorf]

Edited:
Yeah, I checked the euro site. No spareparts, atleast not like this. I might call them on monday. And yeah, I got an official AGD 'field replacement kit'.

A new little update...

I've exchanged the O-ring around the on/off bottom, lubed it up fairly well, put all the parts in in the following order:

Bigger rubber ring

Smaller teflon ring

Brass piece(on/off top, the proper way)

On/off bottom(one o-ring around it and one where the on/off top lies

Pin through it all


And I discovered the following:

As I turn on the tank valve, and co2 starts flowing in the expansion chamber, I keep the trigger pressed. No leaking anywhere, and the rod wants out. I release the trigger, the trigger rod pops out, and it starts leaking down/to the side in the trigger area. I press and hold the trigger, and the leaking stops.

Any guesses to whereas this is in the on/off area or anywhere else in the valve?

Also, I just got off the phone with a friend of mine. He told me Mag owners and users often turn on the pressure without the valve screwed onto the body, so the on/off piece pops out. He had this happen to him on his first mag, and he said he saw similar symptons, but couldn't remember what he did to fix it.

I call up the previous owner, a colleague - sure thing, it happened long ago. Apparently he's had it for 3 years, but it's been in a closet not being used. I got it for $50, so I dont really mind if isn't in tip-top shape as long as I can fix it :)

So what I fear - could there be any more parts of the on/off missing? Also, since it's silent and shut when the trigger is pressed, what other things could be causing it?

[scoorf]

Another little update:

I've gone through the manual again, after my discovery that there is no problem when the trigger is pressed.

Turns out they say to replace both O-rings in the bottom, which I have, and replace the on/off pin if it still leaks.

I've yet to replace the pin, I'll have to try that. If not, maybe a call to their tech support dept. on monday will help..feels like cheating :rolleyes:

Any last ideas?

[scoorf]

OHMYGOD!

:eek: :eek: :eek:

I just rummaged through an old bag I got from my automag friend .. he had an on/off bottom .. I exchanged mine for his, and ... VOILA

the thing doesn't leak a bit!!!!


This is frickin' awesome, I'll go test shoot it right away. I'll be sure to post an update on how much I love it when I get back! :D

[scoorf]

Well, everything seems to be working fine. I'm very happy with it.

It shot nicely outside, just needed a bit of velocity adjusting.


Also, to round off my story, here's two pictures of some indoor target practice:

This is what it should've hit:

http://box.spicelab.net/box/should.jpg


This is what it hit:

http://box.spicelab.net/box/hit.jpg

Thanks again to everybody who shared their oppinion and gave me a suggestion - the actual problem was that the pin in the Z-valve was bent, and it would've taken me a long time to figure that out - it looked(still does!) completely straight! I changed back to the stock on/off and replaced the bottom, and now I'm happy!

[athomas]

Good job. Enjoy the mag. You'll get years of use out it, even though its already a few years old.